Thread: Is astral projection (OBE) real? ...and other questions.

Does anyone else feel that the evidence of your "senses" whilst getting ripped on mind altering drugs might not actually be.....how can I put this sensitively....100% reliable.

Well said moonshine. Though I do not really see why this topic should turn into a drug discussion, since TheBermuda had a question on AP. My take on that is kind of middle road. Though I feel there is enough interesting "evidence" not to dismiss all spirituality as crap, I stronly feel that AP's are "merely" a sub-type of very highly lucid LD's (and "merely" here does not mean less valuable or interesting). I have had lots of LD's and several "OBE's" btw. It's all in our heads, I think.

Originally Posted by Xetrov

I have had lots of LD's and several "OBE's" btw. It's all in our heads, I think.

Actually the guy who likes drugs thought the same:

LD's, astral projections, O.B.E.'s.....their all in the mind

But he thinks that minds are connected.

Originally Posted by Arutad

But he thinks that minds are connected.

Ah that disproves minds are connected, else I would have realised that

Originally Posted by Xetrov

Well said moonshine. Though I do not really see why this topic should turn into a drug discussion, since TheBermuda had a question on AP. My take on that is kind of middle road. Though I feel there is enough interesting "evidence" not to dismiss all spirituality as crap, I stronly feel that AP's are "merely" a sub-type of very highly lucid LD's (and "merely" here does not mean less valuable or interesting). I have had lots of LD's and several "OBE's" btw. It's all in our heads, I think.

Everything is in your head, Everything. If someone thinks this is real, and it's really happening they need to figure out this is all created from the brain, and not some 2 way vision from the eyes (as they are only 1 way...and that's outwards from the brain to the eyes).

Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Everything is in your head, Everything. If someone thinks this is real, and it's really happening they need to figure out this is all created from the brain, and not some 2 way vision from the eyes (as they are only 1 way...and that's outwards from the brain to the eyes).

What I meant is, as opposed to NDE experiences, where there might be consciousness without brain activity and there is no visual center active (proof of this is gathering), OBE's launched from sleep and LD's happen while the brain is creating the images. If this is true then obviously during an NDE, not everything is in your head.

Originally Posted by Xetrov

What I meant is, as opposed to NDE experiences, where there might be consciousness without brain activity and there is no visual center active (proof of this is gathering), OBE's launched from sleep and LD's happen while the brain is creating the images. If this is true then obviously during an NDE, not everything is in your head.

not in your head, as in the brain..but the mind. The mind is creating thoughts and emotions, consciousness is observing (watching, witnessing) them.

I see it like this, the body is just a robot, the body including the brain is hardware.

Consciousness...or awareness is the software. It's the programmer and the body is the program. If the programmer left the program, or if consciousness left the body, the body would still exist, as long as no harm was done to it that would cause it to die by the physic laws of this universe. but it would have no controller telling it what to do. It would still do things like pumping the heart, breathing, you know basic things that allow the body to survive. The subconscious or the mind would still be with body. It would still contain emotions, thoughts, experiences. But if the consciousness isn't in the body than there is no one to observe those thoughts, emotions, and experiences. Without a controller..i wonder if the body would just sit there waiting for the return of the programmer, not making any movements.....any movements would be purely instinctual, there must be a connection or bond between conscious and subconscious.

With salvia users, if they are tripping out bad, they'll make scared gestures or say something really crazy like "help me" or something, but they weren't aware of it. It was actually their subconscious acting out instinctualy.

Maybe when the hardware dies, this time your consciousness leaves the body..but takes the subconscious with it.

This is all speculation, but you gotta admit this is interesting. This hasn't been proven by science.....yet!

speculation: a hypothesis that has been formed by speculating or conjecturing (usually with little hard evidence);..just so we're clear.

Another thought comes to mind:

It seems that when when we're dreaming at night, the subconscious is just playing out it's memories, experiences, desires and thoughts...but when you become lucid, or aware...then your observing the subconscious playing out and immediately become the controller. It makes so much sense. Then dreams are just the program executing itself out, with no programmer until you become lucid or aware.

Ok I understand your view. I see it differently, though. The body as hardware, there I agree. But the sofware, to me, would be the mind, the thoughts and ideas and memories we posess. I see consciousness as the witness of the interaction between hard-and software.

There is research done though on the subject of NDE's. Try and read some here:

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page23.htm

Originally Posted by Xetrov

Ok I understand your view. I see it differently, though. The body as hardware, there I agree. But the sofware, to me, would be the mind, the thoughts and ideas and memories we posess. I see consciousness as the witness of the interaction between hard-and software.

hm..Interesting. So then consciousness would be like the the observer of the program AND the programmer. Experiencing it, testing it out.

What you said makes more sense, seeing as how we can't just program something into our mind unless it's on a subconscious level. Like autosuggestion, you ( the conscious mind, observer, programmer ) keep repeating a message over and over and eventually it reaches the software ( subconscious ) and changes it.

I'll look over that link you posted also.

Originally Posted by Xetrov

Ok I understand your view. I see it differently, though. The body as hardware, there I agree. But the sofware, to me, would be the mind, the thoughts and ideas and memories we posess. I see consciousness as the witness of the interaction between hard-and software.

Well, if we are to compare mind to computer, thoughts, ideas and memories will be data. Thinking will be software, not sure about consciousness, why not it is software too?

Originally Posted by Xetrov

What I meant is, as opposed to NDE experiences, where there might be consciousness without brain activity and there is no visual center active (proof of this is gathering), OBE's launched from sleep and LD's happen while the brain is creating the images. If this is true then obviously during an NDE, not everything is in your head.

NDEs happen when brain is still functioning, as I understand. Feel free to prove me wrong. I think that if all your brain cells would die, they wouldn't restore themselves. You wouldn't be able to come back from such a NDE.

Out of bodies haven't been proven to the public at this point. Although I was convinced that I had an OBE like a month ago, I still want to be skeptical. It could have just been a very vivid lucid dream the mimic me and the room really well.

It could be proven to yourself. If you ever think your having an OBE, perform the digital clock/re-reading reality check. Triple check it and if the time or words don't change, then it must be real. Unless your mind is good at stablizing characters.

Originally Posted by lucidspark64

Out of bodies haven't been proven to the public at this point. Although I was convinced that I had an OBE like a month ago, I still want to be skeptical. It could have just been a very vivid lucid dream the mimic me and the room really well.

It could be proven to yourself. If you ever think your having an OBE, perform the digital clock/re-reading reality check. Triple check it and if the time or words don't change, then it must be real. Unless your mind is good at stablizing characters.

OBE's from sleep, trance and LD's are actually totally different from NDE's. My guess would be that all these OBE's are actually (advanced) LD's whereas possibly at NDE's, something more is going on.

Originally Posted by lucidspark64

Out of bodies haven't been proven to the public at this point. Although I was convinced that I had an OBE like a month ago, I still want to be skeptical. It could have just been a very vivid lucid dream the mimic me and the room really well.

Wouldn't even have to mimic it all that well. Just enough to fool ya.
Bits of your brain are shut down when you dream. So your inclinded to accept what you see.
An FA may give a loose approximation of your room, but as far as your thinking goes, when you wake up you will be convinced it was the real deal.

I've done it myself. Sat in my bedroom wondering if I was actually dreaming or not, sneaking out of the room so as not to disturb my sleeping wife,
and then gradually finding the dream becoming more and more unreal.
Like in the lounge I notices that the TV was where the radiator was.
And that I apparently had a nice big garden (I live in an appartment).

Originally Posted by Arutad

NDEs happen when brain is still functioning, as I understand. Feel free to prove me wrong. I think that if all your brain cells would die, they wouldn't restore themselves. You wouldn't be able to come back from such a NDE.

Actually this is only partly right. Of course the whole brain cant be 100% dead yet at the moment of NDE, however certain parts of it for sure have totally shut down (mostly the upper "higher" evolved regions). This is not so weird as it may seem, because it even happens in deep sleep (where your visual cortex just shuts down for a while). Also, there has been some research done into this. My guess why it is not widely known is possibly because western science is extremely cautious when it comes to spiritual explanations (and at times just plainly dismissive even if there is at least some evidence to suggest that there's more to it than materialistic explanations.. this doesnt mean it has to be so, just that it could be).

The link i showed in above post is pretty good in explaining this, if you have some time please read it if you are interested:

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page23.htm

It's maybe quite a read but very interesting. I would post more links to people who actually did the reasearch but I have to go to work now, I could investigate it later and see what I can come up with. That article I posted should already link to most of it though.

Originally Posted by Xetrov

Of course the whole brain cant be 100% dead yet at the moment of NDE, however certain parts of it for sure have totally shut down (mostly the upper "higher" evolved regions). This is not so weird as it may seem, because it even happens in deep sleep (where your visual cortex just shuts down for a while).

Ahem, wait, I was talking only of brain cells dying. As far as I know death is technically when brain cells die due to lack of oxygen, any state before that is not death, brain still survives and you're aware. If some brain parts shut down like in sleep, it's not death...

The link i showed in above post is pretty good in explaining this, if you have some time please read it if you are interested:

http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Page23.htm

It's maybe quite a read but very interesting. I would post more links to people who actually did the reasearch but I have to go to work now, I could investigate it later and see what I can come up with. That article I posted should already link to most of it though.

I didn't find the link convincing to be honest. The points it makes are weak, and I understand why they don't work with scientists

If you really know interesting links on the topic, then please look for information on some kind of comparison between what happens to brain during dreams and during a NDE. The discrepancy must be very impressive in order to be sure that you couldn't be seeing lucid visions like in sleep.