Shared Dreaming Experiment: Space Explorer and Waking Nomad

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok let's do an experiment, if that is an offer?

To do so, We're going to need you to explain the scope and limitations of your claimed abilities as clearly and as specifically as possible, what you believe is and isn't possible.

Once we've established your terms, we can work out an experiment that abides by your abilities, but is also free from foul play.

I would absolutely love for you to prove to be right about this, I really would.

Things that may or may not be relevant are:

Is your shared dreaming ability limited to two people being in REM sleep at the same time? or do you consider dreaming to not be restricted to our usual waking limitations of time?

What kind of information can be transfered within the dreamstate?

What do you believe you require in order to make a connection with another dreamer?

There may be other factors but we'll address those as we go along, but these seem most pertinent.

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1) No, I don't think that two people have to be in REM sleep at the same time.

2) The type of information is mainly intent. An example is a dream that Raven and I had where we were on a boat to see the Collosus. I perceived her teasing me about pretending to be George Washington in the bow of the boat, but she said that she told me I was going to fall off. So, she teased me in both instances.

I think the easiest thing would be for us to have dream adventures together. Over time, communication becomes easier. Then, you could do something like tell me your first name. Numbers are hard to remember, just as they are hard to see in dreams on a piece of paper.

Doing things like magic spells or summoning is great because dreams are so visual. If you could summon a car with legs, that is probably something I could see and remember as opposed to something you told me.

3) In order to make a connection to the other dreamer, I believe we should give each other permission to share dreams with each other. I don't think it's a requirement to share dreams with anyone, but the intent of both parties is important to do it repeatedly.

Dream recall is important, not for actually sharing dreams, but to verify that you and the other person shared a dream.

Reading the other's DJ helps, because it helps you to get to know the other person's dream personality, and will help with recognition. It's kind of like the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Comics. They all had read headbands around their eyes, but you could tell them apart by their personalities.

Becoming proficient at WILD'ing helps a lot, so we can meet at the same place, with both of us being already lucid.

Being open to the possibility helps, because if you totally disbelieve it, then, you may dismiss small synchronicities. In the beginning Raven and I had a few synchronicities. They increased with time. Sometimes it's less, sometimes more.

I am glad you are going to do this with me. I sincerely want everyone to be able to have shared lucid dreams. :)

I'm rather skeptical that this experiment will do anything more than to give spaceexplorer even more reason to call BS on anything related to shared dreaming. But good luck.

Well, I'd like to propose an experiment.
I've taken on board what you've had to say and have a few thoughts on the matter.

First and most importantly, I am more than happy to give you permission to share dreams.
There is no question in this, I would be incredibly happy for the phenomena to be proven, and would happily eat my words, if you can prove it.


Ok with that out of the way, I need to address some of the issues at hand here.
From what you've said, it seems you would be happiest with just us both agreeing to share dreams, then keeping dream journals to reflect if we have.

Whilst, this may be a fun casual approach, It's got some huge flaws.
Firstly, and without wanting to sound flippant, that approach is essentially like playing snap, whilst at the same time educating each others minds as to the most possible dream themes that each other are likely to experience.

With the suggestable nature of the dreaming mind, it would only be a matter of time, of reading each others journals, that we would start to experience similar themes, simply based on suggestion alone... that combined with a game of psychological "snap", looking for patterns in the dreams, we are bound to see patterns, where there may be none, or at least none that are evidence of a genuine shared dream experience.
We would both be supplying each other with a psychological profile, and on top of that treating our dreams like some kind of noctural inkblot test.


SO, with those criticisms aside, here is the experiment I suggest, It is not experimentally perfect, but it should rule out any kind of non-dream-sharing influence, and i'm sure will be both educational and acceptable to most members of the forum.



The Experiment.

The experiment will last one week, starting on the evening of Sunday the 18th (the full moon) by GMT standard time.
It will end on the morning of the Sunday 25th.

I shall choose an image, that I will try and send to you, either in a shared dream, or via dream telepathy, obviously aiming for a shared dream, but either would be fine.
I will create a gmail account, before the experiment starts, and email the image to that gmail account. This provide evidence that the image choosen has not been changed during the experiment... as i will provide the email login details should anyone wish to check this at the end of the experiment.

Other than the email address, nobody other than myself will be made aware of what this image is.

During my dreams, as a proficient lucid dreamer, i shall attempt to open my mind to contact you, summon you up as it were.
I will then try and project this image in as many means possible...
I will make the dream scene change to this image, speak the image description out loud, feel the mood of the image etc.
Anything that I possibly can during the dream. This will continue during each dream that week. Also whilst awake, i will take time to project the image to you via some kind of meditation.

I will be keeping my usual private written dream journal, which may be available for scrutiny after the experiment.

During the week, I shall not post any dreamjournal entries in the forum, I will not discuss the project, or do anything that could influence or give you "clues" about the choosen image.

However, during this week, WakingNomad, as you are the one who shall be reciving the image, if you could post any dreams in which you feel contact was made in this thread. That is all that is required of you. Just be honest, keep an open mind.

At the end of the week when the experiment is over, so as the knowledge will not influence me during the sending, I will ask a random friend of mine, not a forum member, to choose ANY image they wish, and to email me this image... this image will act as a control against the original.

At this point, I will post both the actual image and the control image into the forum.
We can then ask, perhaps via a poll and discussion, any interested forum members to judge your weeks dreams, against both images. They are to look for any evidence in your dreams, that either of the images were picked up.
Once voting and discussion has been completed, I shall reveal the actual sent image, and offer the email credentials for the gmail account for conformation.

I think this is a fair, and simple experiment, it rules out us simply influencing each others dreams by other means.
It will also be fascinating to see the results, especially considering the judges will also not be influenced as they will be in the dark to the actually transmitted image, until their conclusions have been considered.







ps. I would have prefered to sent a number or something more specific, but I am trying to appeal to the criteria you requested :)

spaceexplorer, I agree with everything said in the first part of your post.

But as for your proposed experiment, I see a few issues.

First of all, it seems more like an experiment in telepathy than shared dreaming. Especially since you will be projecting this image both during wake and sleep.

Secondly, how often do you lucid dream? And how would you go about attempting to dream share with someone? What techniques would you use? I ask because I've spoken with many people who claim to have true dream sharing experiences, and the techniques they used were very different from typical "dream summoning" type stuff. It's much more involved.

Thirdly, from my own personal experience and those whom I have spoken with, dream sharing most often occurs between two people who have a strong connection. Like siblings for instance. I spent months getting "in sync" with my dream sharing partner on the DV a few years back before we started having even the smallest results which could be seen as more than odd coincidences. (I'm not saying this is how it always is or has to be, just that I think it's more likely that two people who are at least friends have a better chance of success)

Fourth, from what I've seen you are extremely quick to disbelieve and disprove anything beyond dreaming related. I understand that you would like for things like this to exist, and are therefore probably extremely sick of all the BS or unsubstantiated claims of "proof" from shady sources and would like some solid evidence. So would I. But I also believe that you are too quick to dismiss and attempt to rationalize things and that your consistently skeptical mindset will be counter productive in this experiment.

Fifth, again like I said, it seems like this experiment proposed by you is being set up for failure, so that you can again go on to claim that dream sharing is BS. One week iss not a reasonable amount of time to disprove that something like dream sharing exists.

If you really do want to experiment with dream sharing, I suggest you do a little more research and speak with those who have some substantial evidence and get some advice from them on how they managed to enter someone else's dream. It's not an easy thing to do (or else there WOULD be real proof/studies/etc). Personally, what WakingNomad describes, I cannot accept as dream sharing for the reasons you stated in your post above. No offense WakingNomad, that's just my opinion.

Anyways, whatever you guys decide to do, best of luck.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

spaceexplorer, I agree with everything said in the first part of your post.

But as for your proposed experiment, I see a few issues.

First of all, it seems more like an experiment in telepathy than shared dreaming. Especially since you will be projecting this image both during wake and sleep.

Secondly, how often do you lucid dream? And how would you go about attempting to dream share with someone? What techniques would you use? I ask because I've spoken with many people who claim to have true dream sharing experiences, and the techniques they used were very different from typical "dream summoning" type stuff. It's much more involved.

Thirdly, from my own personal experience and those whom I have spoken with, dream sharing most often occurs between two people who have a strong connection. Like siblings for instance. I spent months getting "in sync" with my dream sharing partner on the DV a few years back before we started having even the smallest results which could be seen as more than odd coincidences. (I'm not saying this is how it always is or has to be, just that I think it's more likely that two people who are at least friends have a better chance of success)

Fourth, from what I've seen you are extremely quick to disbelieve and disprove anything beyond dreaming related. I understand that you would like for things like this to exist, and are therefore probably extremely sick of all the BS or unsubstantiated claims of "proof" from shady sources and would like some solid evidence. So would I. But I also believe that you are too quick to dismiss and attempt to rationalize things and that your consistently skeptical mindset will be counter productive in this experiment.

Fifth, again like I said, it seems like this experiment proposed by you is being set up for failure, so that you can again go on to claim that dream sharing is BS. One week iss not a reasonable amount of time to disprove that something like dream sharing exists.

If you really do want to experiment with dream sharing, I suggest you do a little more research and speak with those who have some substantial evidence and get some advice from them on how they managed to enter someone else's dream. It's not an easy thing to do (or else there WOULD be real proof/studies/etc). Personally, what WakingNomad describes, I cannot accept as dream sharing for the reasons you stated in your post above. No offense WakingNomad, that's just my opinion.

Anyways, whatever you guys decide to do, best of luck.

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Essentially, dream sharing and dream telepahty should share a common mechanism so I don't think that should be an issue. What i am trying to do here is to not limit the communication... be it a shared dream, or dream telepathy, either result proven would be something quite remarkable. So it seems fair to approach the situation with an open mind that either could happen... this should, in reality improve the chances of the experiment suceeding as there are now two potential types of dream communication open.

As for how often I lucid dream, I've been lucid dreaming since i was a child, and am now in my early 30s. I can lucid dream essentially at will (with the correct motivation).

We cannot get around the "connection between people" issue unfotunatly, even if we could, the same experimental method would still be required to rule out other forms of influence.
Perhaps a week is not long enough, but let's be honest here, it would be incredibly hard to sustain a level of commitment for longer periods than this. There is also, the chance that similar experiments could be run in the future. So let's not jump to conclusions here.

The experiment is not "set up to fail", it is set up to be as objective as possible, and to arrive at a clear answer.
Even if it does fail, we will at least have some interesting things to debate...
For example, how many people see evidence of the control image in the dreams... will be a fascinating example of how the human mind can find patterns.

As for my education on the subject, I've been studying pretty much every aspect of dreaming for as long as i can remember. I have myself even had seemingly shared dream experienences, which is obviously pushed me into researching that area itself.


Shall we just let the experiment pan out, without trying to justify why it wont work before we even start?

I agree with the limited communication. I suppose it seems a bit one sided though, with you merely attempting to pass an image on, and being the only one trying to do the contacting. I think that both parties should actively be involved in attempting to enter each other's dreams, and both parties should keep a dream journal of the weeks events that is kept private until the end of the week, and then they can be analyzed by the rest of us.

I guess what I meant by set up to fail, is the impression I got from your proposed experiment is like you're testing WakingNomad, rather than attempting to really share a dream.

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Shall we just let the experiment pan out, without trying to justify why it wont work before we even start? as that seems to me a bit of a way of trying to justify faliure before we even know what the results are.

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Being an intelligent, rational individual I should think you would see the problem in this statement.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Being an intelligent, rational individual I should think you would see the problem in this statement.

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Well, can we just try and offer contstructive criticism?
It's going to take effort and time to do this experiment, and I really don't want to be entering into too much of a debate in this thread as it is a distraction from the point of the thread. I completely see your point, but we have to work under certain limitations.
If you can think of a better experimental design, or improvements, that would be great.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

I agree with the limited communication. I suppose it seems a bit one sided though, with you merely attempting to pass an image on, and being the only one trying to do the contacting. I think that both parties should actively be involved in attempting to enter each other's dreams, and both parties should keep a dream journal of the weeks events that is kept private until the end of the week, and then they can be analyzed by the rest of us.

I guess what I meant by set up to fail, is the impression I got from your proposed experiment is like you're testing WakingNomad, rather than attempting to really share a dream.

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Well, Nomad has made the claim that he can dream share... i don't claim to have that skill, so i'm not "testing him", im just trying to make the process as simple as possible, to avoid confusion.
I could TRY and get into his dream, but really considering that I don't have that skill, i'd have about as much luck as trying to speak french.
I will of course, be using whatever i can to be open to dream sharing, perhaps it isn't worded correctly... even if that means me having to track him down in the dreamscape, and then share the information.

I will be keeping a private dream journal, and it will be shared at the end of the experiment.

The reason I think it is good for nomad to share his journal, is that it gives us a timescale of when his experiences happens, and as he is only trying to share a dream to get information from me, his influence on me via his journal won't effect the experimental conditions.

I can understand where you are coming from, but for a simple test, I think this is the best approach for now. But if you wish, we could ask Nomad to also keep his journal private, until just before the images are revealed.

I agree that 1 week is not enough time to be sure. But the real key point, is to make sure the image you're trying to send to him is very general. Different archetypes make for different appearances, and if you're really trying to be scientific about it, then you should remove any possibility of that having an effect.

Just a few thoughts...

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Fifth, again like I said, it seems like this experiment proposed by you is being set up for failure, so that you can again go on to claim that dream sharing is BS. One week iss not a reasonable amount of time to disprove that something like dream sharing exists.

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I don't know where you get the idea that S/E wants it to fail. How many times does he have to say on this website that he would LOVE to be proven wrong about any one of these supernatural phenomena you guys talk about in BD? He and I often talk about how amazing it would be if telepathy, premonitions etc were ever proven to occur. And by "proven" I mean in the way that we know penicillin kills bacteria and that rainbows are caused by light rays refracting through water droplets. It would open up a whole new dimension to explore and discover and it would change the way we view the universe. It would be so exciting!

What he has done however is design an experiment that makes it impossible to deliberately cheat. So, the only way you can prove it is to actually do it (unless you get lucky and happen to guess it the way sometimes people guess the winning lottery numbers). I'm picking that could pose a problem to those who want to maintain their status as someone with amazing abilities which we all wish we'd been the ones born with ;)

Having said that, although it is impossible to cheat, unfortunately I'm afraid that the design is indeed flawed. I have done a university paper entitled 'Research Methods' and one experiment is simply not a large enough sample size to be able to arrive at a statistically significant conclusion for this type of investigation. The main problem is that W/N could just happen to dream about whatever picture S/E happened to choose. It's kind of like this: Imagine I wanted to prove to you guys that I could predict the number a dice would land on every time. So, we all stand around in a room and I call out "four!" Then one of you throws the dice and it lands on four. Would you be happy for me to walk away at that point all concluding that DQ can indeed predict a dice before it lands? I don't think so.

The point is, say S/E were to choose a picture of the clown from the movie Poltergeist and then W/N dreamed about a lot of things that week and he just happened to dream about a clown which he was going to dream about anyway because he'd seen one in the street a few days earlier and the word "clown" appeared on his list, could we really conclude that WOW SHARED DREAMING OCCURRED?

No. Sorry.

Someone needs to conduct what is known as a "confidence test" to work out how large your sample size would need to be. It would certainly be more than one. There are some types of experiements where a sample size of one is enough to draw a correct conclusion, but this is not one of those types.

I'm really sorry to burst the bubble here but there's just as much chance that W/N will dream about the control picture as he will about the target picture. The result will tell us nothing as we can't rule out chance as the sample size isn't large enough. You guys would probably need to do this for about ten weeks, maybe longer, in order to rule out chance. Otherwise you could end up incorrectly concluding that shared dreaming is possible when it may not be.

In other words, you're wasting your time to only do it once. Either do it properly or don't do it at all. Because even if W/N comes on and says "I got it! It's a clown and something to do with ghosts!" how can you be certain it wasn't coincidence? He needs to be able to get it correct consistently and repeatedly, not just once.

Well, I'd like to propose an experiment.
I've taken on board what you've had to say and have a few thoughts on the matter.

First and most importantly, I am more than happy to give you permission to share dreams.
There is no question in this, I would be incredibly happy for the phenomena to be proven, and would happily eat my words, if you can prove it.

Ok with that out of the way, I need to address some of the issues at hand here.
From what you've said, it seems you would be happiest with just us both agreeing to share dreams, then keeping dream journals to reflect if we have.

To reflect if we have, but also to get to know each other's dream personality.

Whilst, this may be a fun casual approach, It's got some huge flaws.
Firstly, and without wanting to sound flippant, that approach is essentially like playing snap, whilst at the same time educating each others minds as to the most possible dream themes that each other are likely to experience.

I don't know what you mean by "playing snap." Is that a game?

With the suggestable nature of the dreaming mind, it would only be a matter of time, of reading each others journals, that we would start to experience similar themes, simply based on suggestion alone... that combined with a game of psychological "snap", looking for patterns in the dreams, we are bound to see patterns, where there may be none, or at least none that are evidence of a genuine shared dream experience.
We would both be supplying each other with a psychological profile, and on top of that treating our dreams like some kind of noctural inkblot test.

If you read the shared dream journal of Raven Knight and I, you will see that some of the dreams are not similar themes, but the same dream from two different perspectives. The chances of this happening by seeing patterns in each other's dream journals are nearly impossible.

Here is one of many examples:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad View Post

10.10.2009
Epic Dream Chain (WILD)

NON-DREAM DREAM LUCID

Selene's Rest
I was on the Moon. Raven was waiting there for me. "Are you ready to go?" she asked, creating a portal. "I'm ready!"
"Are you sure you're ready?"
"Let's do it!"
"Okay!" she said, and went through. I followed her. Everything was a blur for a second on the other side.
"Shit. Where is Selene?"
"I don't know."
"Okay, I am going back. I'll be right back."
"I'll be fine."
"I know." I went back through.

"Where is Selene?" I wondered.
"Nomad," she spoke to me telepathically, "I am in the sick bay of the Tower."
I teleported to her. She was half asleep on the hospital bed. I stroked her hair. A medical droid rolled out of the room carrying a tray of something.
"What's wrong?" I asked quietly.
"Don't worry about me. I'll be fine. I am safe here now," she said. "Go fight with Raven," she needs your help.
"But-" she interrupted me by reaching up and weakly caressing my cheek.
"Just go." She fell asleep. I kissed her hand, and set it down. I bent over and kissed her cheek.

The dream faded. I woke up hours later, and continued the dream.

Assassin's Creed Dimension
I was on the moon. I was supposed to do something here... What was it? No, time. Raven needs my help. I hoped I could find her. I created a purple vortex portal, and focused on going to her. I went through. I fell out of the portal about ten feet above the ground in a forest.
Raven and Altair were thundering toward me on horses. Raven's horse was black with a bright red mane, tail and fetlocks. Altair's was brown, with a white mane, tail, and fetlocks. Raven scooped me up, and I was on the back of her horse. We were being pursued by Templars on horseback. I fired white arrows out from a small white bow at the enemies hitting quite a few marks.
"The witch has created an ally!" one of the Templars shouted. I thought it was funny they thought Raven Knight created me.

"Take the reigns!" she shouted over the thundering of hooves. She turned and faced the Templars. Music came out of her, roaring drumbeats, and she summoned lightning from the sky, killing the remaining Templars, but the horses were unscathed.

We got off the horses at the edge of the forest. A great walled city was before us. "Who is your ally?" said Altair to Raven. He looked at me, as if he somehow knew me and was trying to remember. I looked at him. He reminded me of someone....

"No time for that," said Raven. "We are still being pursued. We must melt into the crowd of the city."

We walked into the city. We were in an open market. It was noisy and crowded. We tread upon a cobblestone road. People were selling all kinds of food that I had never seen before. All the merchants were yelling so loudly, you had to shout to the person next to you to be heard over the din.

"I can feel them coming closer," said Raven. "Stop looking around like a foreigner! We have to keep going."

"AHA!" said a loud voice above the din. The crowd quieted. A Templar was behind us. He pointed his sword at us. "There is the assassin, and his witch friend." He looked at me confused, for a second. "Another assassin! Kill them all!" Templars behind him rushed at us. I was concerned for the civilians. I turned on my energy shield and kneeled, which simultaneously created a hemisphere of protection around the three of us, and pushed the civilians back.
The Templars rushed at us. I turned off my shield, and absorbed the nearest one. I felt dark energy flow into me. I stood up and coughed, and wiped my mouth, grinnly menacingly at the Templars. As I coughed, tendrils of dark energy protruded from my skin for a second then disappeared back into me.

"A demon! The witch hath summoned forth a demon ally!" they shouted.
"What the hell did you do that for?" said Raven.
"I wanted to see what would happen. I wanted to see if these were real entities."

"You're nuts. We have to get out of here. It's too crowded to fight," said Raven. Raven put her hands on the shoulder of Altair and I, and teleported us to another part of the forest.

Fight in the Forest
We were without enemies. "Those bastards are going to show up soon," said Raven.

I grew in size, to a giant Nomad. "That is not very stealthy," said Raven.
"Oh right." I changed into a hill.
"What is that going to do?"
"Um..."
I changed into a great tree with dark grey brown bark. "Good!" Raven laughed. Altair was staring at me quizzically.

"Here they come!" said Raven hoarsely. Raven and Altair took cover, and I couldn't see them. I closed my mouth and my eyes to hide my face in my tree body.

The Templars were on foot. I heard the leader say, "Hmm... They are close. I can smell 'em." He sniffed the air. Raven stood up from the bushes. "AH-GGHKK!" He was about to point at Raven, but Altair appeared behind him and slit his throat, then disappeared.

"Ah the assassin is among us!" one of the Templars shouted in fear. I opened one eye. There were quite a good number, about forty. We were definitely outnumbered. The Templars eyes were like two tiny black holes.

Raven summoned lightning again. She killed some in front. One Templar shouted, "Charge!" and they rushed at Raven, running within my reach. I reached down and grabbed two of them with my great tree arms, crushing them to death. The assault was misdirected as they became confused and panicked. I rumbled at them, and it sounded like an earthquake.

"The witch has summoned a demon! Attack the demon!" The Templars regrouped and rushed at me, with their swords. I scooped them up, crushing them in my hands, and tossing them against trees. Others came closer, and tried to hack at me, but I trampled them under my great wooden feet. "I love being an Ent!" I thought. "This is so badass!" They shot arrows at me. It felt like being stuck with little needles. The Templars closer to me began to run away. "Attack! Attack! Attack!" shouted the second in command.

Raven summoned lightning again, and Altair was running among them, a white blur, slitting their throats from behind. "Kill the witch! The demon will disappear! Focus on the witch!" The Templars that were left all charged Raven Knight. Altair and Raven drew their swords. Two bolts of lightning came down from the sky again, and crackled on the swords of Raven and Altair. Raven and Altair became separated in the battle. Templars surrounded Raven. She did a spin attack, and Altair used the distraction, to stab one in the back.

All the Templars were gone. There were no bodies. Just empty armor with a putrid smoke rising from it.

I changed back into Nomad form. Raven opened a portal. She looked at Altair. "You can come with us, if you want to," she said to him. We stepped through.

Healing Raven Knight
We were back in the biodome on the moon. Raven looked ill. She began losing balance. She fell into Altair's arms. "I know where we have to go," I said. I created a portal. "Follow me," I told Altair.

We were in the Glen of Healing. Altair got a strange expression on his face. He looked down at Raven. He ripped something off of her back that looked like a cross between a crab and a stingray, and threw it on the grass, then he leapt upon it, and stabbed it with a dagger. It dissipated. Raven had two wounds on her upper back where the parasite had bitten her.

He laid Raven down in the grass. I turned into Pan. I summoned a conch shell and blew it. Instantly the Frost Giant appeared. "You don't need to do that to call me, cousin!" he said to me. "I already knew you were here. Save that for battle."

"I wanted to see what would happen," I said sheepishly, and turned back into my Nomad self. He laughed merrily, and looked at Raven. "Hmm. Another parasite attack." He looked at me. "You lie down in the grass, too."

I lied down in the grass and closed my eyes. Altair was looking at the Frost Giant curiously. He blew herbs from his hands which flew into Raven's wounds. A bunch of tiny little black astral ticks scampered off me, and were gobbled up by little frogs.

The Frost Giant picked up Raven like she was a small child and said to Altair and I, "Follow me."

We were in the cave of the Frost Giant. "Hi!" said Joseph, and ran to me and gave me a hug. I tousled his hair. The frost giant laid Raven down on a bed of hay in the rear of the cave. He withdrew a flask of red glowing liquid from a bag, lifted her head, and tilted it to her lips. "Drink this," he gently spoke to her.

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Originally Posted by Raven Knight

From Raven Knight's Dream:

I fell asleep with my light/sound machine and did a WILD to the moon…

I was on the moon. I looked around. I saw the tower in the distance. I figured I would go there. That would be a good place to find Nomad. I teleported into the biodome. I petted a Rottweiler / Shepherd mix that came over to meet me. There were some other dogs playing around. I heard a dog whimpering. I followed the sound. I found Selene. She was sitting by the pond gazing blankly out over it. There was a black Pit Bull licking her face and whimpering in a concerned manner. Selene wasn't responding to the dog. I went over to them.

"Selene?" I asked. She didn't respond. "Selene? Are you ok?" I asked. Still no response. I looked around but I didn't see Nomad. I tried to telepathically contact Nomad. I got no response. I touched Selene on the shoulder. She looked up at me. She had a blank look in her eyes. They seemed darker than normal. I had the idea she needed healing. I took her hand and tried to get her to stand up. She stood easily enough. I led her through the biodome to the bed of grass brought from the healing glen. Selene lied down on the grass and looked quite relaxed. I focused on the song Full Moonlight. I instinctively felt that was the right song to use. White energy flowed through Selene as the song played. When the song was over Selene focused on me for the first time.

"Raven?" she asked as if a bit disoriented.

"How do you feel?" I asked her.

"Tired," she said.

"Then maybe you should rest," I said.

Selene closed her eyes and seemed to fall asleep. I stayed there and watched her sleep for a couple of minutes to be sure everything looked ok. I was about to walk away when she disappeared. I wondered where she had gone. I didn't sense that she was in any danger. I thought maybe I should check on her to see where she had gone. I was going to but I was awakened by my cats getting into an argument…

I was in a strange place. I looked around to see where I was. It was a town like one I would see in an RPG. It wasn't a big city. It was a small village. There were people walking around and talking. There were only a few merchant booths with merchants talking to the people who were walking by. It was a peaceful setting. I walked over to one of the merchant booths. He was selling a wide variety of crap. Or at least it looked like crap to me. I had the idea I needed to find my mother a birthday present. I didn't want to buy her crap. I went to the next booth. There were some nice things there. I looked at a couple of them. I saw a couple of price tags. I wondered if I had any money. I reached into a bag strapped to my waist (I was wearing white robes). I didn’t find any money. I pulled a Homer Simpson (D'Oh!). How could I buy my mom a present without money? I was frustrated. I walked away from the merchant booth. I was trying to think how I could get some money when the silence was broken. There was a thundering coming. It sounded like a herd of horses. All of the people ran for shelter. I noticed the merchant stand where I had spotted possible presents for my mom was unwatched now. Maybe I could just go over and snag something…

A horse came past the stand at full gallop. It was a dark brown horse with a lighter mane and tail. An arrow hit the horse in the ass. The horse threw off its rider and bolted with the arrow still sticking out of its rear. I wondered what a$$hole had shot the horse, I looked and saw more horses approaching at a gallop. I looked at the man who had been thrown from his horse. Those others were after him. I went to him to see if he was ok. He was not hurt. He got up and looked at me. It was Altaïr. If I was looking at Altaïr then I must be dreaming…

"Raven!" Altaïr said, "Hurry! They're coming!"

I looked at the approaching horses. I could see them well enough now to see there were Templars riding those horses. I focused on the song Battery and lightning struck at all of the Templars. Many of them were caught by surprise and got consumed by white lightning. As for the others, the horses were spooked and threw their riders before bolting off into a nearby forest. The remaining Templars were on foot. I used another bolt of lightning to charge Altaïr's and my swords with a bolt of lightning. The remaining Templars, there were seven of them left, arrived and attacked us. We fought them off using our electrically charged swords. The final Templar was coming at me when Altaïr got him from behind. He fell to the ground and was consumed by white lightning. I saw Altaïr's hidden blade was sparking. Apparently he had charged it with the energy on his sword.

"There's more coming," Altaïr said, "I saw them from the crest of that mountain."

I looked around and spotted Altaïr's horse. The arrow was still protruding from its rear. There was some blood, but the wound didn't look serious. I went over to the horse and pulled the arrow out as quickly as I could. The horse whinnied in pain and kicked out. I pet the horse to calm it and used Voices from the Macross Plus soundtrack to heal the wound. I told Altaïr his horse was fine now. A horse nuzzled me. It was a white horse with a red mane and tail. The horse was familiar to me. I climbed on the horse as Altaïr got on his horse. I could hear more horses coming. Altaïr and I took off and headed for a forest near the town. We could lose them there.

We entered the forest and kept going as quickly as we could. I could hear the Templars coming from behind. They were getting closer. Something felt strange. It felt like someone was trying to find me. I instinctively wanted that connection to be successful. I focused on Through the Never to make the connection work more easily. A portal opened up ahead of Altaïr and me. Nomad fell out and managed to land on his feet. I held my hand out to him as we rode past and helped him get onto my horse behind me with a jump. He started firing white arrows at the Templars that were emerging behind us. There were too many of them. I looked back. I focused on the song Battery. I didn't know if the Templars would be expecting that so I tried to use more power than usual. The lightning crashed down and broke right through their shields. The Templars were consumed by white lightning leaving behind some confused and spooked horses.

"Your friend came back, too, I see," Altaïr said, "Or at least one of them did. We need all the help we can get. They're not holding back this time."

Note: Somewhere in here during the ride to the city I slipped into semi-lucidity...

I figured if he was saying that then there must be more Templars. I tried to sense where their dark energy was. There were more of them. They were coming. It seemed like so many. Maybe we would be best to avoid them for now. We rode up to a walled city. We left our horses in a stable there and entered the city on foot. It was a big place with many people going about their business and endless vendors hawking their wares. It was hard to hear myself think. I checked on the position of the Templars again. They were getting closer. They were still on our trail. I told the others that the Templars were coming, we should blend in with the locals so maybe they wouldn't find us. I looked and saw Altaïr was already gone. I could sense he was still close, but I couldn't spot him. Nomad was looking excitedly around at all of the action around us. I thought he could've been wearing a sign that said 'TOURIST' on his robes. I told him to blend in with the locals, just act like he belonged there. Too late…

"There!" came a voice from the gate, "It's the witch! And she's with an assassin! Kill them!"

The Templars started coming towards Nomad and me. One of them dropped dead and was consumed by white lightning. Altaïr had just stabbed him from behind with his still sparking hidden blade.

"Kill all of the assassins!" yelled a Templar. Now they came in full force. Altaïr came and joined us. Nomad formed a force field around the three of us. It pushed the civilians away. The civilians were realizing that a fight was about to break out and they were trying to run for cover. But there were so many of them they were having trouble getting out of the way. Nomad reached out and pulled a single Templar into the shield with us. I was about to ask why when he made like Alex Mercer off the video game Prototype and consumed the Templar.

"That's dark energy!" I said, "Don't consume that!" There was briefly a dark aura around Nomad and then he absorbed that as well. He glared at the other Templars as if daring them to get close enough for him to consume them as well.

"A demon!" one of the Templars yelled, "The witch has summoned a demon! Stop it or it will consume your soul!"

"We can't fight them here," Altaïr said, "Too many innocent people will get hurt…"

I focused on teleporting us to the forest. The next instant we were there. In a small clear area. The town wasn't far away. I could sense the Templars gathering together and heading straight for us. Damn! They must be able to track us somehow. I told Nomad and Altaïr that maybe we could ambush them. Nomad transformed to be 50 feet tall.

"Well…" I said, "If the Templars didn't know where we were before, they sure know now…" Altaïr was just staring at the 50 foot Nomad. Nomad shrunk back down and transformed into a big rock. I told him they would probably still sense us even if we blend in perfectly. They seem to be able to do that. Nomad transformed into an Ent like on Lord of the Rings. A big sentient tree that can move. "Cool! An Ent!"

Altaïr and I hid. Templars entered the clearing. One of them said he knew we were somewhere close… he could smell us. Without thinking I sniffed my armpits… no stink. It wasn't me they smelled. I felt a bit dumb for doing that. I had stood up. One of the Templars spotted me. He didn't get a chance to raise an alarm. He dropped dead and was consumed by white lightning. I caught a glimpse of Altaïr. Other Templars came at me. They ran too close to Nomad. He grabbed them in huge tree-hands and crushed them. Apparently their dark energy could not repair being crushed… The Templars were yelling about the demon now and shooting arrows at the tree that was Nomad. As in Lord of the Rings, arrows proved woefully ineffective against an Ent. He crushed some more of them. I used Battery. Lightning struck numerous Templars and also recharged Altaïr's and my swords and his hidden blade. The Templars seemed to be focusing on me. Someone said that if they killed the witch the demon would disappear. I was surrounded. I did a spin attack like on the Legend of Zelda. I cut down the Templars around me. When they were consumed by white lightning I saw Nomad crush a couple of Templars and Altaïr pulled his sword out of a Templar. That was the last of them.

Nomad transformed back to his normal form. I could still sense dark energy in him from the Templar he had consumed. I used Full Moonlight to purge that dark energy out. I felt a bit strange. I figured I had been doing too much. We should get somewhere safe. I focused on Through the Never to open a portal to the moon. A portal opened. Nomad stepped through it. I told Altaïr he could come if he wanted to. He followed me through the portal. It closed behind us.

We were now in the biodome. I was standing next to Altaïr. Nomad was looking at me strangely. Altaïr was looking around at his new surroundings. I heard him ask where we were. His voice was coming from a distance. I thought maybe I was going to wake up. I felt dizzy and everything faded to black. Just as everything went black I thought I felt myself in Altaïr's arms…

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The above dream is one of many which obviously eliminates the possibility that we are "mistaken" or simply having similar "themes". It's obviously the same dream from two different perspectives. So, the only other possibilities is that we are either lying, or one person with two accounts.
SO, with those criticisms aside, here is the experiment I suggest, It is not experimentally perfect, but it should rule out any kind of non-dream-sharing influence, and i'm sure will be both educational and acceptable to most members of the forum.

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ps. I would have prefered to sent a number or something more specific, but I am trying to appeal to the criteria you requested :)[/QUOTE]

I understand your desire for a control such as an unidentified image. This is more mental telepathy or dream telepathy. It would be much easier for us to actually share an experience, which is what a dream is, right? Not just a single image. Something as in depth as a dream is a series of many specific things, not just one. Logically, this even further eliminates the possibility of being "mistaken" or having a "similar theme."

Secondly, the idea of using a control: It would be just as easy for anyone to dismiss you and I or anyone online as it would be to dismiss Raven Knight and I, because you and I could be lying, or be one person with two accounts.

I am not out to convince anyone as I said before. The only reason I want to do this with you is because you said you would like to believe it's true. Since I am the one claiming to dream share, why not try and use the methods that I do to dream share?

If we did share a dream, especially after getting good at doing it together, there would be so many similarities, it would be impossible for you to disbelieve.

The very first time I tried anything like this, I wasn't sure if it would work or not, but wanted to try anyway. There were too many similarities to dismiss.

If you want to do this experiment, I think it should be labeled dream telepathy, not dream sharing, because a single image is not a dream. A dream is an experience.

On another note, I believe sharing dreams is a skill, just as dream control is a skill, which develops over time. Also, two people can get in and out of rhythm, just like two people paddling a canoe.

Since I am the one claiming to have this ability, why not try and learn from me since you are interested in doing it?

One another note, I believe people share dreams all the time, but they don't realize it. Shared lucid dreaming is what gives us the ability to stay in the same dream, and interact more fully. Just as lucid dreaming gives you awareness that you are dreaming, shared lucid dreaming gives you the awareness that you are dreaming with the other person.

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I am not out to convince anyone as I said before. The only reason I want to do this with you is because you said you would like to believe it's true. Since I am the one claiming to dream share, why not try and use the methods that I do to dream share?

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Well, the most important reasons, is that by using your methods, even if we were to have similar experiences, It would not convinving in the slightest.

You may see it as a strange idea, but I myself, if i'm going to believe in something, want to have evidence that I can share with others, that not only backs up what i am saying, but also shows my conclusions to be sensible... I don't want to come across as just another gullable type, who is willing to take any flimsy anecdote as evidence of something extraordinary.

There are plenty of occasions where i've gone to bed, having just had a particular conversation, or watching a film, only to then find that the conversation or film makes a huge impact on the theme of the dream.
I'm sure almost all dreamers can attest to this phenomena.

So, to spend time sharing journals, learning about each other etc.
would not be all that different from the film watching or conversation influence I just mentioned.

Your method does nothing to add weight to the idea of shared dreaming, instead it actually does quite the opposite and undermines your conclusion...

Here is an imperfect, but relevant analogy:

There are two people who claim to be psychic, they claim they can tell what a painter will paint before they can paint it.

One psychic, simply has to greet the painter, shake hands, and then retire to another room... where they write their prediction.

The other psychic, claims the only way he can make a connection, is to spend a couple of weeks observing the painter, seeing what style of painting she paints... and also claims that he is unlikely to get a direct match of the image, but will get the "intent" or "mood" of the painting. This psychic also claims that it will take time to get a "match", because you need to form a "connection".

Lets break down what the second psychic is really saying:

I need to spend a couple of weeks obsering the painter = I need to learn what the painter is likely to paint.

I only get the "mood" or "intent" of a painting = I will only make vague guesses which due to their vagueness allows them to be applicable to a wide spectrum of possible outcomes.

It takes time to make a connection, it may take a while before my prediction matches a painting = if i fail, it's because i havn't connected yet, if there is a match, that's me being psychic... not just down to chance. Or in other words, if i'm wrong it's not my fault, but if im right i take full responsibility.


What you are claiming is no different from the second painter, and if you can't see why that is utterly unconvincing, then that is a real worry.

All you are doing is exactly what the astrology section of the cheap newspapers do, making things as vague as possible, and then allowing people to find their own patterns.

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On a sidenote DreamQueen is completely right.

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Originally Posted by DreamQueen

I'm picking that could pose a problem to those who want to maintain their status as someone with amazing abilities which we all wish we'd been the ones born with ;)

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Yeah, um, who wants to let the facts stand in the way of a good story eh Waking Nomad?

So carry on and good luck.

Let us know how you get on with this ;)

The "archetype" theory is such an obvious fudge.

"In my dream he was a tea pot but in his dream I was a chair".
Good to see SE calmly deconstruct it.

Its just a shame that its neccesary.
Thats humanity for you.

What ever happened to just meeting in the dream and then both waking yourselves up? Record the time you woke (a match would probably the best indicator of shared dreaming) and any details of the dream meeting.

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

What ever happened to just meeting in the dream and then both waking yourselves up? Record the time you woke (a match would probably the best indicator of shared dreaming) and any details of the dream meeting.

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One time I was very lucid and wanted to attempt to Dream Share with someone but couldn't think of anyone, I didn't have a partner at that time. So I decided to try to Dream Share with my sister. It was about 2am, and I very clearly remember how I entered her dream. In the dream she was bartending at the place where she works, and I just watched and observed her giving people drinks. I was like a ghost though, no one could see me. I tried to talk to her, but she was like on auto-pilot and paid me no attention. Then I tried screaming her name and woke myself up. Literally like 30 seconds later she calls me on the phone, and sounds extremely groggy. I was very shocked first of all, because my sister doesn't just randomly call me at 2am. She's says, "what did you want? why did you call me so late?" I reply, "Um, I didn't call you." She says, "Yeah you did, my phone rang and woke me up and I saw it was you calling." Then she paused for a moment, and said, "er, wait, my ringer is off. How the hell did my phone wake me up." And I said to her, "I never called you, but I was in your dream and tried screaming at you. Were you just dreaming about being at work?" She says she doesn't remember what she was dreaming about, she's pretty weirded out, and I apologize to her for trying to enter her dream without her permission. A few days later we talk about it and she's really fascinated by it and wants to try dream sharing, but I haven't tried again since for a few reasons. But maybe I should.

So the point of that little story, I agree that it would show nice evidence if you could wake each other up at a specific time and then record it. Nice suggestion The Cusp.

(oh, and as weird as this was, I'm still not entirely convinced, I'm rather skeptical but still open to the possibility that it was something shared dreaming related)

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Originally Posted by moonshine

The "archetype" theory is such an obvious fudge.

"In my dream he was a tea pot but in his dream I was a chair".
Good to see SE calmly deconstruct it.

Its just a shame that its neccesary.
Thats humanity for you.

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This is not correct. The human mind will automatically try to interpret and understand anything it sees. So if two people see the exact same thing they may interpret it differently. Just look at this optical illusion...
http://www.sapdesignguild.org/resour...ages/faces.gif
Some people look at it and see a vase while others look at it and see the sillhouettes of two people facing each other. This is just one example of how two people can see the same thing and have their minds interpret it differently. :) So if it can happen in this physical world, why wouldn't it happen in the dream state? It does happen in the dream state.

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Originally Posted by Raven Knight

This is not correct. The human mind will automatically try to interpret and understand anything it sees. So if two people see the exact same thing they may interpret it differently. Just look at this optical illusion...
http://www.sapdesignguild.org/resour...ages/faces.gif
Some people look at it and see a vase while others look at it and see the sillhouettes of two people faing each other. This is just one example of how two people can see the same thing and have their minds interpret it differently. :) So if it can happen in this physical world, why wouldn't it happen in the dream state? It does happen in the dream state.

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Well that optical illusion is kind of famous, because it's demonstrates that when the subject matter ambiguous, the mind can shift between definitions. In reality, almost everyone can see both... which is why it is so famous. I think you'd be hard pushed to find someone who couldn't see the faces. Sure different people may see different things at first.

I agree completely with your first statement, only I think it applies moreso to the fact that people can find patterns where there are none, down to the way the mind works.

It's actually funnily enough, a great demonstration as to how the human mind searches for meaning in the ambiguous... which seems to be exactly what people are doing when they try to make two different dreams match up. I see a dog, you see a cat, both obviously different, but if you are looking to find similarities your mind can generally find connections.
If i dreamt of petting a Cat and you dreamt of feeding a dog, and we were both trying to dreamshare, we may conclude that our dreams are similar enough to have been shared... when in reality, the connection was made in retrospect because we WANTED to find a pattern.

To conclude that an ambigious optical illusion demonstrates that people will have shared dreams and have different interpretations of the SAME dream, is a big strech of the imagination. It makes far more sense to conclude that people have DIFFERENT dreams, and the mind (being a a great pattern finding device) fills the gaps and makes connections where there are none, it requries far less rewriting of the laws of physics, psychology and all the rest.

I think we can all agree, that any answer that requires more unprovable steps, or leaps of faith... is a weaker answer than one that requires none.

There is a famous experiment where two groups of people are shown ink blots (in fact I think it's mentioned in one of LaBerge books) the first group are simply shown the ink blot and asked to see what they see, the other are told a story about sailing first, then shown the ink blot.
The first group, generally see all sort of unrelated images in the inkblot.
The second, generally see more nautical related images... because their minds have been already been primed to be more receptive to that kind of imagery.

If you prime your mind to find patterns, it will.
Simply choose a random word say "sky", and suddently if you decide it has meaning... it will almost magically seem to crop up everywhere.
The same thing happens with that classic psychological illusion where people start noticing the time 11:11

This is not to rule out the possibility of shared dreaming, perhaps it is possible. But if you are looking for truth, it really pays to be discerning. No one wants to draw false conclusions, and then look like a fool when someone points out a far more sensible and obvious answer.

People who make up excuses, or try to make the subject vague and beyond testing, weaken their argument. It comes across as deliberate deceit... even if it isn't. The truth has nothing to hide from asking difficult questions, it is only that which is false that needs protecting, because its foundations are weak, and it will crumble under hard questions...
Which, as an aside, is a the exact reason i find the deep dreaming forum highly dubious.

spaceexploer, what do you think about The Cusp's suggestion of attempting to wake one another up?

I definitely agree with what you've said in the above post.

For me it takes a bit more to even entertain the idea that it's not mere coincidence. The reason I do entertain the idea that dream sharing exists, is because I personally have experienced a handful of incidents that seem unlikely to be coincidental. In the "shared dreams" I was able to make specific observations about a place or an article of clothing or jewelry that it would have been impossible for me to know about previously.

If you are ambiguous and say that a gold watch in a dream might be the same as a silver watch in real life, just being perceived differently, then that (in my opinion) makes it seem exactly as what spaceexplorer was talking about. You're trying to make things fit together. A gold watch in a dream should be a gold watch in real life. If you look at things that way, then that's the only way (again, just my opinion), you're going to find any proof.

Interesting how you responded only to my method, but not the example of the dream.

A dream is not an image or a theme. It is an experience.

If you cannot see that it's nearly impossible to have so many "coincidences" in two different dreams, I give up.

I withdraw.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

spaceexploer, what do you think about The Cusp's suggestion of attempting to wake one another up?

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I think that would actually be a fantastic idea.
I'm trying to think it through, just to rule out any reasons why it may have problems... not to be skeptical for the sake of it, just to give it the respect of thinking it through.
The only thought that first jumps to mind, is that upon waking, there should be a grace time, of say 5 minutes... allowing both dreamers to record their waking time, before calling each other. This could help rule out any cases where you are actually awoken by the phone ringing... and like the classic alarm clock becoming a dream siren were all familiar with, the phone ringing could, at a strech, cue a dream about the other person. Which is best avoided.

Obviously, you'd need to be able to repeat this enough times to rule out chance, and also record any occasions where you wake up thinking you've had a shared dream, but not getting the call.

Otherwise, it's a nice direct way to casually experiment. As long as people are aware enough to realise one example, is not proof in itself, like dreamqueen said, in such cases you need to gather a big enough pool of experience and evidence to avoid statistical flukes and chance occurences.

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

I definitely agree with what you've said in the above post.For me it takes a bit more to even entertain the idea that it's not mere coincidence. The reason I do entertain the idea that dream sharing exists, is because I personally have experienced a handful of incidents that seem unlikely to be coincidental. In the "shared dreams" I was able to make specific observations about a place or an article of clothing or jewelry that it would have been impossible for me to know about previously.

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This is the same case for me, I've had two seemingly shared dreams in my life. Both many years ago now, and unfortunatly I only have my memories, and no dream diarys of the events. They were more than enough to spark my interest, but cleary rare enough that they could also be put down to a statistical fluke.

I'm well aware of the strange nature of coincidences too, for example, my friends consider my incredibly lucky... I literally find money all the time.
The other day, whilst discussing my odd luck with a friend, he joked that maybe i had some kind of odd Karma... as a month before i'd found £100. This is not a common conversation I and this friend would have, but fueled by the odd events the month or so before.
10 Minutes after having this discussion, on my walk home, I decided to take a different route... as I walked back, I noticed a £50 note on the floor, I was gobsmacked... even more so when I picked it up and discovered it was 3 £50 notes, so £150 in total. Very odd considering the conversation we just had.

Do i consider that divine intervention, some kind of karma, or magical luck?
Not really, I just consider it to be a strange combination of chance, self programming to expect to find things (so i keep an eye out), and my own natural observant nature. I've literally developed a skill at being seemingly lucky... if you program yourself right, and are an observant individual... seeming miracles can happen to you.

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Well that optical illusion is kind of famous, because it's demonstrates that when the subject matter ambiguous, the mind can shift between definitions. In reality, almost everyone can see both... which is why it is so famous. I think you'd be hard pushed to find someone who couldn't see the faces. Sure different people may see different things at first.

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The point I want to make is that sometimes in a dream we only see somethiing briefly. So what we see first is the only thing we see before the image is gone. The equivilant would be if we both were in a car and saw an animal run across the road. You saw a small dog; I saw a cat; in reality it was a rabbit. In reality we caught a glimpse and our minds filled in what it was. Most people aren't as aware in a dream as when awake (me included), so it would happen even more easily there. Another optical illusion: What do you see?

http://www.illusionking.com/wp-conte...s-illusion.jpg

I know this isn't direct physical proof, but I would swear on... well anything... that I am telling events as they happened. Yes, I would swear it in a court of law. Having said that...

Nomad and another friend of mine that I know physically in person recently shared a dream. In that dream he was lucid and she was not. She didn't remember the dream. Nomad did. Since she didn't remember the dream, she asked for more information from Nomad. She asked for a more detailed description of her. And he nailed it! He didn't describe her as she physically looks in this world, but he described how she sees herself in her dream state and got even small details right such as her height, her hair length and color, and a specificly unique piece of jewelry she was wearing. She is not sure if she believes in shared dreaming, and she is officially creeped out by that. There is no way Nomad could have known these things! And I don't see how this could be faked (they never met or knew each other) or coincidence (there were too many accurate details). I don't know if you will consider this event as evidence since you didn't personally experience it, but I thought I would relate it to you. :D

And again, I would swear in a court of law that I did not make that up! :D

Raven, I definitely get what you are saying. But isn't it much more convincing when someone says "I dreamt about a black dog" and then the other person says "I also dreamt about a black dog" ...rather than, "Oh, I dreamt about a black cat. But since we both dreamt about a black animal it must have been the same thing just perceived differently."

My point is...if you actually can get extremely accurate details shared by two people, then why muddy the water with all this "different perception" stuff?

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Originally Posted by Aquanina

Raven, I definitely get what you are saying. But isn't it much more convincing when someone says "I dreamt about a black dog" and then the other person says "I also dreamt about a black dog" ...rather than, "Oh, I dreamt about a black cat. But since we both dreamt about a black animal it must have been the same thing just perceived differently."

My point is...if you actually can get extremely accurate details shared by two people, then why muddy the water with all this "different perception" stuff?

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Actually I would need more similarities than just a black animal to convince me of a shared dream. On the ones I accept as shared there are more similarities than that. For example in one dream I was sick and riding a horse while Nomad and some others were fighting Templars attacking us... he dreamed that I was sick and on a horse while he and some others were fighting random enemies. I saw Templars because I am obsessed with Assassin's Creed :embarrassed: so that is how my mind interpreted it. Mostly the same with a few differences. And you are right; exact matches are much more convincing! I've experienced quite a few of those, too! :D :boogie: :D

Ok, glad we got that cleared up. ;)

The idea of proving that shared dreaming is possible is awesome! Spaceexplorer, Wakingnomad, I hope you get the proof you need!

So, is it going to be done or not? I'm not sure, it looked to me like Wakata escaped at one point.

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Originally Posted by WakingNomad

Interesting how you responded only to my method, but not the example of the dream.

A dream is not an image or a theme. It is an experience.

If you cannot see that it's nearly impossible to have so many "coincidences" in two different dreams, I give up.

I withdraw.

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Hey, SpaceExplorer... since WakingNomad opted out, how about the two of us do the experiment? Here's my proposed method:

* Since I can find you in your dreams (I've done it before) it will be my job to locate you and enter your dream.

* You have said you are really good at controlling your LD's. So get the experiment image in your email account with the date verified and all, and then in the dream it would be your job to make your dream world look like that image.

* Make it something exicting or unique, though, as that would be easier for me to remember. It would also reduce the chances of me guessing what it is.

* I will record my dreams with as much detail as possible.

* At the end of the experiment the information for the email account is revealed so we can all see if I ever did see that image.

True, this would not provide undisputable proof since it is just one set of experimental data, but it would be a step in the right direction. All scientific discoveries have to start somewhere! :D So what do you say? And I promise I won't back out. :D

Now we're getting somewhere :)

Raven, that picture is a woman and a man with a beard, that's not really a human head. Looks like it though if you glance at it...attention to detail

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Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Hey, SpaceExplorer... since WakingNomad opted out, how about the two of us do the experiment? Here's my proposed method:

* Since I can find you in your dreams (I've done it before) it will be my job to locate you and enter your dream.

* You have said you are really good at controlling your LD's. So get the experiment image in your email account with the date verified and all, and then in the dream it would be your job to make your dream world look like that image.

* Make it something exicting or unique, though, as that would be easier for me to remember. It would also reduce the chances of me guessing what it is.

* I will record my dreams with as much detail as possible.

* At the end of the experiment the information for the email account is revealed so we can all see if I ever did see that image.

True, this would not provide undisputable proof since it is just one set of experimental data, but it would be a step in the right direction. All scientific discoveries have to start somewhere! :D So what do you say? And I promise I won't back out. :D

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Ok more than happy to do it.

We need to make something clear to all forum members, either side of the fence, the point that DreamQueen raised which is VERY important...

Whatever the result, positive or negative, is NOT conclusive evidence either one way or the other.
If you get the image, this is not conclusive evidence for shared dreaming.
If you do not, this is not conclusive evidence against shared dreaming.

All we will establish in this experiment is a single bit of data.

I think dream queen already said this...
It is the same as someone who claims they can make a coin land on heads ever time. You would not draw a conclusion from one coin toss.

This experiment is one coin toss, it will be a bit of fun, and something for us to both play around with for the week.

Should we wish to continue, and draw any meaningful conclusions, we will need to perform many similar experiments, until we can rule out statistical flukes and chance.

So, with that in mind, whatever our results, NEITHER believers nor skeptics should use this as amunition in their argument. To do so, would be evidence ONLY of that individuals foolishness and inability to comprehend how experiments and conclusions are drawn.

Had to get that out of the way :)

But it should be fun lots of fun.

I'll get what needs to be in place, in place.
:)

Ok, everything is in place.
Will start tonight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Ok, everything is in place.
Will start tonight.

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And I completely agree that this shouldn't be used as a conclusive argument for or against shared dreaming since by itself it is not conclusive.

I will see you in your dreams. :dreaming:

SpaceExplorer posted the following in the thread Can someone clear up information about shared dreaming?...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You've utterly and totally missed the point completely.

I'm actually gobsmacked.


Sorry, i'm not going to take part in the experiment.
Having given it more thought, it seems like a complete waste of time.

If you can't comprehend the point of my post, that's a real worry.

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Just what I expected. I'm sorry you can't be open minded enough to even participate in this experiment. :bang: I have to say I am disappointed. :(

So I guess the experiment is off.

It's nothing to do with being open minded.
It's to do with realisng that life is short, and that investing time into a pointless exercise is like throwing good money after bad.

If you wish to continue to spend the precious time in your life, chasing rainbows... go ahead. But don't call those of us who can discern between what is worth investing time into, and that which isnt, closed minded.

It's quite the opposite, it's simply called being discerning

And this is why i'm not doing it, after a lot of thought, it dawned on me....




I've been thinking about shared dreaming, and thinking of the benifits it would bestow upon whomever could do it.

Having thought about it, there are several thoughts I'd like to share. Having had these thoughts, it'd made me realise how very narrowminded we can become about these subjects, how we can only see them through the filters of our own lives. This got me thinking further, and there is a phrase I think that if you take the time to really ponder it, speaks volumes about the subject.
That pharase is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Now what do I mean by that?

Well, let's take a completely different perspective here shall we, shall we forget our own happy healthy lives, our freedoms, our comfortable existence.
And let us project ourselves into the lives of others, who are not as gifted.

Necessity...

Consider for a moment, the thousands of people on this planet, both alive today, and the billions who have gone before us. People afflicted with chronic disability, or perhaps those who have been kidnapped, held hostage or are otherwise cut off from the luxury of social contact we take forgranted.

I'll stick with the disability angle as it avoids confusion.
Let's take one person as an example, Dr Stephen Hawkins.
Here is a man trapped in a body that does not function, to the point where he cannot even communicate verbally. Now think, how many others there are like him.

Consider, the intense motivations, the frustrations, the constant daily stress of not being able to communicate with those you love. The Necessity.

Let us stick with Dr Hawkins, and let us also remind ourselves, here is one of the greatest minds of our time.

Are we arrogant and short sighted enough, to not accept that people in this kind of position, would not have considered EVERY possible means to communicate with their loved ones possible?
Being stuck, trapped in their own minds, every single agonising second of each day.

Would you not crave a means to communicate?

Back to Dr Hawkins, here is a man who can outthink any of us here in this forum. He understand things that many of us would take years to even comprehend, let alone ADD TO the knowledge of those fields.

Do you think he, with his great mind, and the restrictions imposed upon his life, would not have investigated shared dreaming, would not have followed the lead through to a conclusion that could potentially offer him a freedom he can only dream of (no pun intended).
Do you think that if he saw a glimmer of possibility in shared dreaming, he would not have jumped into that possibility with a motivation to understand it, more than we could ever muster.

Necessity is the mother of invention.


So why?
When there are people out there, and have been for generations, who live such restricted lives, who crave to communicate with their loved ones.
Why have they, OF ALL PEOPLE, not developed this skill?

necessity is the mother of invention.

Now, put things into perspective people, see outside the box of your comfortable healthy lives.

See beyond the fuzzy warm feelings the new age books give you.

See the world for the place it is, both beautiful and tragic at the same time.

Think of the frustrations and deep deep aching motivations some unforunate people will have to communicate with others, when they have utterly no power to do so.

It may be all fun and games to play "lets share dreams" when it's just an oddity, a fun little game us healthy lucky people have the freedom to take lightheartedly.

But for some people, that skill, would be the doorway to freedom, a release that we cannot even dream about.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So why then, with such a powerful and vastly overpowering necessity, has such a skill never been used as a release for these people?

Think about it.
And think about the minds of people like Dr Hawkins, who tower above us intellectually... people who would not only free themselves with such an ability, but would also be in a position to share it with the scientific community with an authority to have it taken completely seriously.

And consider what lengths people will go to for freedom, such as the young man who cut his own leg off with a spade, to escape the rubble of an earthquake recently.

If necessity is the mother of invention, then there is a very very big lack of invention, considering the wave of necessity that overwhelms so many peoples lives.

I think that says a hell of a lot.

So...you are giving up because Hawkins could not do it, or anyone with a disability? has he ever tried? i must be missing your point, that is all i got from your post.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

So...you are giving up because Hawkins could not do it, or anyone with a disability? has he ever tried? i must be missing your point, that is all i got from your post.

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the point is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Or if you really need me to spell it out...

If the people who would benifit the most, and have the most motivations for doing something are not or cannot do something.
Then you really have to ask yourself IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO AT ALL?

Or if it needs spelling out further:

If:

A bunch of people on a forum claim they can share dreams with people they have only met on a forum.

AND

People who are trapped in their minds who cant even speak to their loved ones... cannot share dreams with the people they love.

Which seems more realistic?
The healthy forum members have stumbled across something magical.

Or

The people who would probably kill to be able to tell their loved ones they love them, or thank them for caring for them all their lives... cannot share dreams, because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.


OR IN OTHER WORDS...

If those who are desperate, and will do anything for something... are not doing something that others claim is easy and possible.

Why exactly?

Well, you don't need to say it that way but i still can't believe you are backing out because of that. You were looking forward to this then *poof* had a moment, and now you are saying because these guys could not do it, it's impossible. How is that even rational? I guess i just can't understand your way of thinking.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

the point is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Or if you really need me to spell it out...

If the people who would benifit the most, and have the most motivations for doing something are not or cannot do something.
Then you really have to ask yourself IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO AT ALL?

Or if it needs spelling out further:

If:

A bunch of people on a forum claim they can share dreams with people they have only met on a forum.

AND

People who are trapped in their minds who cant even speak to their loved ones... cannot share dreams with the people they love.

Which seems more realistic?
The healthy forum members have stumbled across something magical.

Or

The people who would probably kill to be able to tell their loved ones they love them, or thank them for caring for them all their lives... cannot share dreams, because IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DO.


OR IN OTHER WORDS...

If those who are desperate, and will do anything for something... are not doing something that others claim is easy and possible.

Why exactly?

---

We have no actual count of how many disabled people have actually attempted to share dreams and how many believe they have been successful. And it is not easy at first. There are many barriers to break down. The barrier of disbelief is a big one. The mind is like a room. As long as it is closed you will never be able to reach beyond. Again, I am sorry, but I tire of this debate because it will not go anywhere. You will never accept shared dreaming; I won't give it up. So I bid you well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Raven Knight

We have no actual count of how many disabled people have actually attempted to share dreams and how many believe they have been successful. And it is not easy at first. There are many barriers to break down. The barrier of disbelief is a big one. The mind is like a room. As long as it is closed you will never be able to reach beyond. Again, I am sorry, but I tire of this debate because it will not go anywhere. You will never accept shared dreaming; I won't give it up. So I bid you well.

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No, I would happily accept shared dreaming WITH EVIDENCE.

However, I fail to believe that someone who claims they can do it easily like you do, would not spend at least some of their life teaching chronically disabled people how to do it.

Rather than just messing around playing at being a game character in "shared dreams" with random people on forums.

It shows a lack of conviction OR a deep rooted self absorbed nature.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Well, you don't need to say it that way but i still can't believe you are backing out because of that. You were looking forward to this then *poof* had a moment, and now you are saying because these guys could not do it, it's impossible. How is that even rational? I guess i just can't understand your way of thinking.

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Because i realised, that nothing could be achieved with the experiment.
Pass or Fail, we would have gained nothing of substance.
We would not have ruled out chance, so the results as they stand alone, would mean nothing.

That combined with a deeper consideration of the issues (as i stated above),
and the realisation that trying to use a scientific approach with people who distrust and reject science constantly unless some misunderstood bit of quantum physics appears on face value to back up their beliefs... is not a very discerning use of my time.

Wow. This thread sure broke down in a hurry. :shock: From a scientific experiment to a bunch of arguing. :argue: That's too bad. I would like to have seen the results.

Seth

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

It's nothing to do with being open minded.
It's to do with realisng that life is short, and that investing time into a pointless exercise is like throwing good money after bad.

If you wish to continue to spend the precious time in your life, chasing rainbows... go ahead.

---

So taking a bit of time to do a minor experiment which really only requires that you remember your dreams is a waste of time. But coming in here every day and arguing against the very same topics is a better investment of your time?

From the time you've invested in these arguments already, that statement is a little hypocritical to say the least.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Well, you don't need to say it that way but i still can't believe you are backing out because of that. You were looking forward to this then *poof* had a moment, and now you are saying because these guys could not do it, it's impossible. How is that even rational? I guess i just can't understand your way of thinking.

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How would it be rational to carry on with something that is a complete waste of time, as this experiment would be since the design of it does not rule out chance? When someone who knows what they're talking about (ie someone with a university paper which covers Experimental Design) tells you that a journey you are about to embark on is going to lead nowhere, you listen. At least a smart person does :roll:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that way of thinking :imslow:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

So taking a bit of time to do a minor experiment which really only requires that you remember your dreams is a waste of time. But coming in here every day and arguing against the very same topics is a better investment of your time?

From the time you've invested in these arguments already, that statement is a little hypocritical to say the least.

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Coming in here and arguing against stupidity at least has the chance of improving the world by enlightening deluded people. Getting involved in the aforementioned experiment is a complete waste of time. It's not hypocritical at all.

^^^ Exactly ^^^

Oh, so it's a public service you provide!

I still don't see the difference between what you're trying to do and what Mormons try to do when they accost people on the street in an attempt to convert them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

Oh, so it's a public service you provide!

I still don't see the difference between what you're trying to do and what Mormons try to do when they accost people on the street in an attempt to convert them.

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The ironic nature of this post is hilarious.

Hold on one moment...

you're the one with the unsubstantiated, evidence free, belief system that contradicts modern science, trying to indoctrinate others and claiming that faith based anecdotes are enough to justify a belief in something, that if true, would shake the foundations of society to its core. Whilst at the same time, shunning any kind of hard questioning with the smoke screen of "oh they are just closed minded..."

Whist, people like myself, come in here and simply say... "um, hold on a second, that's a hell of a big claim you're making there, and you've got no clear evidence to back it up, and well... it kind of contradicts some of the most basic principles of science. Maybe you shouldn't be so quick to jump to really way out conclusions, and consider some of the more down to earth and plausable explanations first?"

But, yeah... we're the ones most like the Mormons... riiiiiight.


ps.... oh and lets not forget to mention, that like the Mormons, you guys have had to set up your own little hide away from the rest of society, where no one can ask difficult questions, because only believers and yes men can go.... they call it a church, you call it the deep dreaming forum.

Like the mormons because you're trying to force your views on people who really aren't interested in hearing them. Also like the mormons you're doing this because you want to "save them". There's also an air or righteousness that you share with them as well. I stand by my metaphor!

Ever heard of christian scientists? Well you're a mormon scientist.:D

And nobody goes to church anymore. Likewise with the DD.

Well, that didn't go so well..

If you still are interested in the experiment I would gladly participate Raven Knight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreamQueen

How would it be rational to carry on with something that is a complete waste of time, as this experiment would be since the design of it does not rule out chance? When someone who knows what they're talking about (ie someone with a university paper which covers Experimental Design) tells you that a journey you are about to embark on is going to lead nowhere, you listen. At least a smart person does :roll:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that way of thinking :imslow:

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I'm surprised you havn't been banned yet, you're a complete waste of time to even have a debate with, always hostile and making smart ass comments. No, i am not going to find all your useless posts, as you say "it's a complete waste of time". Why don't you start putting some thought into what you say, you're a grown ass woman for crying out loud.



So you agree that because someone who is disabled and can't talk to loved ones can't SD's it's proven that it's impossible? i'm skeptic of SD but listen to what you're saying....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

I'm surprised you havn't been banned yet, you're a complete waste of time to even have a debate with, always hostile and making smart ass comments. No, i am not going to find all your useless posts, as you say "it's a complete waste of time". Why don't you start putting some thought into what you say, you're a grown ass woman for crying out loud.



So you agree that because someone who is disabled and can't talk to loved ones can't SD's it's proven that it's impossible? i'm skeptic of SD but listen to what you're saying....

---

DreamQueen, is an intelligent, polite and decent member of the forum.
She has many friends here, and is always quick to give sensible advice to new members looking for it.
To come here and make attacks against someones personality, judged purely from a handful of posts, where someone is defending themselves against dirty debate tactics , criticism and is frustrated by a pig-headed inability for people to at least question their own beliefs, in light of a more reasonable explanation... is I think, completely justified.


And you still fail to see the glaringly obvious point about chronically disabled people...

It does not PROVE it is impossible, it proves that despite there being a group of people, who would do anything to communicate with the outside world, that if even those people, with such a compelling motivation, have not learnt to develop skills that would set them free... then that does make you wonder why they havn't does it not?

I know for one, that If i had been born with such a disability, trapped in my own mind, that some of the very first things I would consider would be attempts at telepahy, dream sharing etc.
And considering, you would be spending every second of each day, trapped with nothing but your mind... that it would give you ample time to investigate and hone your skills.

When you compare people like this with such huge motivations, to a bunch of new-age westerners, who just-so-happen to have stumbled across shared dreaming, telepathy or any other of these skills... it really does put things into perspective.

No, its not conclusive evidence, but it's a hell of a compelling question isn't it?

If people are willing to spend millions developing devices that can allow the disabled to move a mouse cursor on a PC, via advanced brain scanning technology.... then, why, if there is such an easy to "stumble upon", ability for minds to reach beyond the confines of their body... why wasn't that ability the first port of call in research?

If you have huge limitations in your life, you tend to try and find solutions to those limitations.

To assume that perfectly coherent, normal human beings, who just so happen to suffer from bodily paralysis do not share the intelligence or insight to discover telepathy or shared dreaming, when a bunch of able bodied people have stumbled upon it and consider themselves "experts"... is condescending and offensive to those disabled people.

And if they had discovered it, would they not be shouting it out to the world? so they could help relieve the suffering of others like themselves?

Such as how Daniel Kish, the blind man who has developed the skill to be able to use echo location to help navigate around the world, and now teaches the skill to other blind people.
Why is it that he a blind man discovered it, rather than those of us who are not blind? because he had the motivation due to his limitations.
As I said before, necessity is the mother of invention...
Daniel Kish, had the necessity to overcome his limitations,
the same can be said for those with bodily paralysis...
but there are no Daniel Kish types in the community of those with sever bodily paralysis, using telepathic or dream sharing skills.


And this video is amazing, what an amazing man doing such a wonderful thing with his life, changing lives... and doing so in a way that makes perfect sense...

Actually the whole Stephen Hawking as a shared dreamer isn't a bad point.

In fact the dreams of handicapped people would be a great place to start looking for evidence of shared dreaming. If one takes the time to actually look into it and not just assume it doesn't happen because they haven't heard of it happening personally.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The Cusp

Actually the whole Stephen Hawking as a shared dreamer isn't a bad point.

In fact the dreams of handicapped people would be a great place to start looking for evidence of shared dreaming. If one takes the time to actually look into it and not just assume it doesn't happen because they haven't heard of it happening personally.

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If you havn't done so already, I'd really suggest watching the video in my last post. IF nothing else, it demonstrates the amazing power of human motivation and creativity to overcome limitations.

I just think, things like this put things in perspective.
It's very easy for us to see the world in a limited way... but if you push thoughts and concepts to the logical extremes, it does help to see the realities more clearly.

And yes I agree, it would be a great plce to start. I don't automatically assume it dosn't exist... i simply think that if it does, then like Daniel Kish, it will be those with strong motivations and needs, who make the discoverys.

And if it is lacking in those people, the question once again arises?
Why?
To which it seems to me, there can be only three possible answers:

1) no one has discovered it yet --- which makes you wonder how it is that able bodied people would discover it BEFORE those with such strong motivations - as people here are claiming.

2) it is too difficult, or unstable to be of any use to anyone

3) it simply dosn't exist.

The third answer, is the one that fits with current knowedge about physics, psychology, biology etc.

Dosn't make it right, but it does make it the answer that those, who weigh up the evidence before making conclusions, are more likely to sway to.
Dosn't mean we wouldn't change our minds, with compelling new evidence, just that it is the most plausable current answer based on the available evidence.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

DreamQueen, is an intelligent, polite and decent member of the forum.
She has many friends here, and is always quick to give sensible advice to new members looking for it.
To come here and make attacks against someones personality, judged purely from a handful of posts, where someone is defending themselves against dirty debate tactics , criticism and is frustrated by a pig-headed inability for people to at least question their own beliefs, in light of a more reasonable explanation... is I think, completely justified.

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She's a troll, if you can't see it you need to open your eyes. I didn't attack her personality, i attacked her trollness in BD. People need to realize when you are on the internet, you are acting what your true personality is because you are behind a keyboard and able to get away with things you can't offline. I don't cry over words online, but it gets old when you see trolling all the time.

Quote:

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And you still fail to see the glaringly obvious point about chronically disabled people...

It does not PROVE it is impossible, it proves that despite there being a group of people, who would do anything to communicate with the outside world, that if even those people, with such a compelling motivation, have not learnt to develop skills that would set them free... then that does make you wonder why they havn't does it not?

---

You were just saying it was impossible yesterday. As for the question...not really, no. Even if they have done it, how would the other person or people know? it could be a normal dream for them, their dream journal could be nowhere, there would be alot of factors and if they really dream shared they would not care if we knew about it, they would only care that they can talk to their loved ones, or anyone. There are alot of things to consider, and this obviously can't be done on a whim.

Quote:

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When you compare people like this with such huge motivations, to a bunch of new-age westerners, who just-so-happen to have stumbled across shared dreaming, telepathy or any other of these skills... it really does put things into perspective.

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I take what i read online with a grain of salt, but i wont rule it out because these people can't do it that we know of

Quote:

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No, its not conclusive evidence, but it's a hell of a compelling question isn't it?

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It's a thinker, but it should not be given up if they were in that situation even if they have yet to see results.

Quote:

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If you have huge limitations in your life, you tend to try and find solutions to those limitations.

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Depends on the person. I have a HUGE learning disability that was caught late, i have not done anything to improve it. Like i said, depends on the person.

Quote:

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To assume that perfectly coherent, normal human beings, who just so happen to suffer from bodily paralysis do not share the intelligence or insight to discover telepathy or shared dreaming, when a bunch of able bodied people have stumbled upon it and consider themselves "experts"... is condescending and offensive to those disabled people.

---

Like i said, take it with a grain of salt. it's online where everyone can play Liar and not have to be a Lawyer.

Quote:

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And if they had discovered it, would they not be shouting it out to the world? so they could help relieve the suffering of others like themselves?

---

Like i said, there is alot you have to consider. Even if they did it, it would not matter to them for anyone else. This is a selfish world, so aslong as they can do it to their loved ones that is all that would matter to them.


I normally don't like cutting posts up like these, but i just wanted to get the main things. I'll watch the video you linked and get back to you on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

She's a troll, if you can't see it you need to open your eyes. I didn't attack her personality, i attacked her trollness in BD. People need to realize when you are on the internet, you are acting what your true personality is because you are behind a keyboard and able to get away with things you can't offline. I don't cry over words online, but it gets old when you see trolling all the time.

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You are attacking her personally.
And I disagree she is not a troll in any sense at all, she has her opinion, and she shares it.
That is what forums like this are for.

And I know DQ well enough, to know that she would act in exactly the same way, if faced by the same mindlessness in reality.

If some people have a lower BS tolerance than others, then good on them.
The world needs more people to not just be nodding yes men who are afraid to stand up to nonsense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

And this video is amazing, what an amazing man doing such a wonderful thing with his life, changing lives... and doing so in a way that makes perfect sense...

---

Nice video, like you said, it shows what a person can do when they are motivated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You are attacking her personally.
And I disagree she is not a troll in any sense at all, she has her opinion, and she shares it.
That is what forums like this are for.

If some people have a lower BS tolerance than others, then good on them.
The world needs more people to not just be nodding yes men, who are afraid to stand up to nonsense.

---

She comes in here to laugh at people who don't have her POV, that is called trolling...Aslong as you come into threads with the intent of laughing at people's POV, or calling them names (she called me stupid by saying "At least a smart person does:roll:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that way of thinking :imslow:" )

But anyway i don't care, you are just making a big deal out of it. I'm done talking about a troll...and getting me to talk about her is just baiting her to come back, so enough.

Stay on topic.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Dosn't mean we wouldn't change our minds, with compelling new evidence, just that it is the most plausable current answer based on the available evidence.

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Not everything is a clear cut logic problem. There are many other factors to consider.

Those people are already most likely hypersensitive about being differently-abled, and for the most part just want to fit in as best they can. Talking about paranormal experiences is not the best way to do that, because let me tell you, the reception is not very warm.

That blind guy is just lucky his "ability" has an easily understood explanation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

She comes in here to laugh at people who don't have her POV, that is called trolling...Aslong as you come into threads with the intent of laughing at people's POV, or calling them names (she called me stupid by saying "At least a smart person does:roll:

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Um... not actually true.

Firstly, I've made three posts in this thread (not counting this one) which is as many as you've made bagging me and calling me names.

Second, you say "she comes in here to laugh at people who don't have her POV". Actually if you read the first post I made in this thread (#10) you'll see I put in quite a bit of time to assist you in not wasting your time with an experimental design that was flawed. But there was absolutely no thanks for sharing some of the knowledge I gained during three years at university and trying to help stop you wasting your time on an experiment which would not prove anything. Instead you start calling me names and saying nasty things.


Regarding this post I made:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DreamQueen

When someone who knows what they're talking about (ie someone with a university paper which covers Experimental Design) tells you that a journey you are about to embark on is going to lead nowhere, you listen. At least a smart person does :roll:

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that way of thinking :imslow:

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You have misinterpreted it in thinking I'm saying you personally are stupid. I am simply saying what happens in life is that when an expert gives advice, smart people take it. S/E is smart, hence he is taking the advice and not going to conduct an invalid experiment. The :imslow: emoticon is there to emphasize that this is basic, logical thinking.

I mean, the concept is so simple it's ridiculous. If you were about to walk ten miles across a desert to collect water from an oasis and then someone arrived back from the oasis and said "There's no water there. It's dry." Would you still go? Of course not. It becomes a pointless exercise. Anyone who can't grasp that idea definitely deserves a :imslow: emoticon - which I'm sure you don't.

Anyway, with the nasty way you've spoken about me, LF, I don't really feel I want to be here anyway so your mission is accomplished.

PS If you decide you want to apologize please PM me as I won't be back to this thread :(

Here comes the "i'm innocent" card, now i'm waiting for mods to clean this thread up.

I wont be saying sorry, no need for it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LucidFlanders

Here comes the "i'm innocent" card, now i'm waiting for mods to clean this thread up.

I wont be saying sorry, no need for it.

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You seem to be the one trolling here.
All you've done is come in, make character assasinations, and taken things off topic...

Back on topic people, were here to discuss, not mud sling.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You seem to be the one trolling here.
All you've done is come in, make character assasinations, and taken things off topic...

Back on topic people, were here to discuss, not mud sling.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

Quote:

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In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

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wikipedia is your friend, learn what you are talking about before you start typing. I didn't come in here being hostile, i came in here trying to understand why you decided to not even bother with this anymore, then you keep dragging this on and on. I was actually talking about other stuff, you just insist to keep dragging this on.


I'm done with you both.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Back on topic people, were here to discuss, not mud sling.

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But this topic is dead.:horse: The experiment has been called off. It has been shot down.:sniper: All it seems there is left to do is argue about who is at fault, which is a complete waste of time. This is too much arguing. :argue: And I participated! :oops: I argued as badly as anyone. :puppydogeyes: I apologize to anyone I may have offended. :sorry: Since this thread has clearly been :hijack: by these arguments I am going to unsubscribe so I don't let myself get pulled back in. If anyone has any serious comments (other than calling me stupid) go ahead an PM me. :D

I'm locking this thread, for obvious reasons.

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Originally Posted by Raven Knight

But this topic is dead.:horse: The experiment has been called off. It has been shot down.:sniper: All it seems there is left to do is argue about who is at fault, which is a complete waste of time. This is too much arguing. :argue: And I participated! :oops: I argued as badly as anyone. :puppydogeyes: I apologize to anyone I may have offended. :sorry: Since this thread has clearly been :hijack: by these arguments I am going to unsubscribe so I don't let myself get pulled back in. If anyone has any serious comments (other than calling me stupid) go ahead an PM me. :D

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Yup yup.

Locked~

Spaceexplorer, DreamQueen, everyone in this thread,
Stop trolling. You don't have to come to BD if you disagree with their beliefs. It's in the rules at the top of the forum list. If you know you're just going to be addled and bothered by a thread, don't go in it. It's that simple.

EDIT: D'oh, RB got in before me :doh: