Can someone clear up information about shared dreaming?

**Raven Knight** · 10-18-2009 11:58 PM

You believe shared dreaming is not possible. I respect your right to believe that. But in a scientific experiment the participants have to be as impartial as possible. I am not going to assume our experiment will work. Too many variables are uncontrolled. It's just an experiment to see what happens. But can you maintain any degree of impartiality?

I agree that Dr. Stephen Hawkins is a genius.

No debating there. He is way above all of us. But I didn't invent shared dreaming. I more like stumbled over it like an idiot and turned around and said, "Wow, this is cool!" Peoples used it long before I was ever born but it has been written off by science so it isn't really investigated any more. If we can get some evidence that is works it would be a great thing for the physically handicapped!

Imagine what a mind like Dr. Hawkins' could do with that ability!

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Right,

I've been thinking about shared dreaming, and thinking of the benifits it would bestow upon whomever could do it.

Having thought about it, there are several thoughts I'd like to share. Having had these thoughts, it'd made me realise how very narrowminded we can become about these subjects, how we can only see them through the filters of our own lives. This got me thinking further, and there is a phrase I think that if you take the time to really ponder it, speaks volumes about the subject.
That pharase is:

"Necessity is the mother of invention"

Now what do I mean by that?

Well, let's take a completely different perspective here shall we, shall we forget our own happy healthy lives, our freedoms, our comfortable existence.
And let us project ourselves into the lives of others, who are not as gifted.

Necessity...

Consider for a moment, the thousands of people on this planet, both alive today, and the billions who have gone before us. People afflicted with chronic disability, or perhaps those who have been kidnapped, held hostage or are otherwise cut off from the luxury of social contact we take forgranted.

I'll stick with the disability angle as it avoids confusion.
Let's take one person as an example, Dr Stephen Hawkins.
Here is a man trapped in a body that does not function, to the point where he cannot even communicate verbally. Now think, how many others there are like him.

Consider, the intense motivations, the frustrations, the constant daily stress of not being able to communicate with those you love. The Necessity.

Let us stick with Dr Hawkins, and let us also remind ourselves, here is one of the greatest minds of our time.

Are we arrogant and short sighted enough, to not accept that people in this kind of position, would not have considered EVERY possible means to communicate with their loved ones possible?
Being stuck, trapped in their own minds, every single agonising second of each day.

Would you not crave a means to communicate?

Back to Dr Hawkins, here is a man who can outthink any of us here in this forum. He understand things that many of us would take years to even comprehend, let alone ADD TO the knowledge of those fields.

Do you think he, with his great mind, and the restrictions imposed upon his life, would not have investigated shared dreaming, would not have followed the lead through to a conclusion that could potentially offer him a freedom he can only dream of (no pun intended).

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So why?
When there are people out there, and have been for generations, who live such restricted lives, who crave to communicate with their loved ones.
Why have they, OF ALL PEOPLE, not developed this skill?

necessity is the mother of invention.

Now, put things into perspective people, see outside the box of your comfortable healthy lives.

See beyond the fuzzy warm feelings the new age books give you.

See the world for the place it is, both beautiful and tragic at the same time.

Think of the frustrations and deep deep aching motivations some unforunate people will have to communicate with others, when they have utterly no power to do so.

It may be all fun and games to play "lets share dreams" when it's just an oddity, a fun little game us healthy lucky people have the freedom to take lightheartedly.

But for some people, that skill, would be the doorway to freedom, a release that we cannot even dream about.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

So why then, with such a powerful and vastly overpowering necessity, has such a skill never been used as a release for these people?

Think about it.
And think about the minds of people like Dr Hawkins, who tower above us intellectually... people who would not only free themselves with such an ability, but would also be in a position to share it with the scientific community with an authority to have it taken completely seriously.

And consider what lengths people will go to for freedom, such as the young man who cut his own leg off with a spade, to escape the rubble of an earthquake recently.

If necessity is the mother of invention, then there is a very very big lack of invention, considering the wave of necessity that overwhelms so many peoples lives.

I think that says a hell of a lot.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 12:02 AM

You've utterly and totally missed the point completely.

I'm actually gobsmacked.

Sorry, i'm not going to take part in the experiment.
Having given it more thought, it seems like a complete waste of time.

If you can't comprehend the point of my post, that's a real worry.

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

^ I think this post says it all really.

I tried to be encouraging with my last post because, hey, I don't want to knock anyone who is trying to get out there and do something positive but sheesh, it kind of puts it all in perspective really doesn't it?

I think anyone who tries to argue that they're having shared dreams in the light of spaceexplorer's post is really going to make themselves look incredibly childish and immature, not to mention disrespectful to people who are in such positions as S/E described - sorry, just telling it like it is.

Maybe stick to the video games hmmm?

The fact you're always putting other people down makes you look incredibly childish and immature.

You have the right to your opinions, but so does everyone else. You really should put a stop to your endless negativity. It's ruining the forum for the rest of us. We may disagree, but at least SpaceExplorer puts reasoning behind his statements. You just sit there and insult people!

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You've utterly and totally missed the point completely.

I'm actually gobsmacked.

Sorry, i'm not going to take part in the experiment.
Having given it more thought, it seems like a complete waste of time.

If you can't comprehend the point of my post, that's a real worry.

Just what I expected. I'm sorry you can't be open minded enough to even participate in this experiment.

I have to say I am disappointed.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 12:18 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Just what I expected. I'm sorry you can't be open minded enough to even participate in this experiment.

I have to say I am disappointed.

It's nothing to do with being open minded.
It's to do with realisng that life is short, and that investing time into a pointless exercise is like throwing good money after bad.

If you wish to continue to spend the precious time in your life, chasing rainbows... go ahead. But don't call those of us who can discern between what is worth investing time into, and that which isnt, closed minded.

It's quite the opposite, it's simply called being discerning.
Which is a critical element to a genuine open mind.

I can see that this is an attempt to create a smoke screen from my original post, I have said all that I need to say on the subject in second from last post. Those who can see the sense behind my conclusion, are the kind of people I want to surround myself with, those who cannot see sense, even when it it screaming in their face through a megaphone, by a giant, with a really loud voice, in a silent room... well those people, go do your happy clappy thing, but i want no part of it.

**DreamQueen** · 10-19-2009 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

The fact you're always putting other people down makes you look incredibly childish and immature.

You have the right to your opinions, but so does everyone else. You really should put a stop to your endless negativity. It's ruining the forum for the rest of us. We may disagree, but at least SpaceExplorer puts reasoning behind his statements. You just sit there and insult people!

Um, it's not actually a "fact" that I always put other people down. This might be your opinion but please don't state it as fact.

I actually took a lot of time to compose this post in order to stop you wasting your time with an experiment that would not be considered valid in the field of science:

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

Just a few thoughts...

I don't know where you get the idea that S/E wants it to fail. How many times does he have to say on this website that he would LOVE to be proven wrong about any one of these supernatural phenomena you guys talk about in BD? He and I often talk about how amazing it would be if telepathy, premonitions etc were ever proven to occur. And by "proven" I mean in the way that we know penicillin kills bacteria and that rainbows are caused by light rays refracting through water droplets. It would open up a whole new dimension to explore and discover and it would change the way we view the universe. It would be so exciting!

What he has done however is design an experiment that makes it impossible to deliberately cheat. So, the only way you can prove it is to actually do it (unless you get lucky and happen to guess it the way sometimes people guess the winning lottery numbers). I'm picking that could pose a problem to those who want to maintain their status as someone with amazing abilities which we all wish we'd been the ones born with

Having said that, although it is impossible to cheat, unfortunately I'm afraid that the design is indeed flawed. I have done a university paper entitled 'Research Methods' and one experiment is simply not a large enough sample size to be able to arrive at a statistically significant conclusion for this type of investigation. The main problem is that W/N could just happen to dream about whatever picture S/E happened to choose. It's kind of like this: Imagine I wanted to prove to you guys that I could predict the number a dice would land on every time. So, we all stand around in a room and I call out "four!" Then one of you throws the dice and it lands on four. Would you be happy for me to walk away at that point all concluding that DQ can indeed predict a dice before it lands? I don't think so.

The point is, say S/E were to choose a picture of the clown from the movie Poltergeist and then W/N dreamed about a lot of things that week and he just happened to dream about a clown which he was going to dream about anyway because he'd seen one in the street a few days earlier and the word "clown" appeared on his list, could we really conclude that WOW SHARED DREAMING OCCURRED?

No. Sorry.

Someone needs to conduct what is known as a "confidence test" to work out how large your sample size would need to be. It would certainly be more than one. There are some types of experiements where a sample size of one is enough to draw a correct conclusion, but this is not one of those types.

I'm really sorry to burst the bubble here but there's just as much chance that W/N will dream about the control picture as he will about the target picture. The result will tell us nothing as we can't rule out chance as the sample size isn't large enough. You guys would probably need to do this for about ten weeks, maybe longer, in order to rule out chance. Otherwise you could end up incorrectly concluding that shared dreaming is possible when it may not be.

In other words, you're wasting your time to only do it once. Either do it properly or don't do it at all. Because even if W/N comes on and says "I got it! It's a clown and something to do with ghosts!" how can you be certain it wasn't coincidence? He needs to be able to get it correct consistently and repeatedly, not just once.

I think most people will agree there is a lot of reasoning behind my statements there.

As for saying "I'm ruining the forum"... that's just plain nasty.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Just what I expected. I'm sorry you can't be open minded enough to even participate in this experiment.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

The fact you're always putting other people down makes you look incredibly childish and immature.

You have the right to your opinions, but so does everyone else. You really should put a stop to your endless negativity. It's ruining the forum for the rest of us. We may disagree, but at least SpaceExplorer puts reasoning behind his statements. You just sit there and insult people!

There are two words for what you are doing here:

ad hominem

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 12:37 AM

First I want to say I'm sorry for the insult.

I get pissed when someone is insulting me.

And as for your rude statements, please recall...

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

I think anyone who tries to argue that they're having shared dreams in the light of spaceexplorer's post is really going to make themselves look incredibly childish and immature, not to mention disrespectful to people who are in such positions as...(Dr. Stephen Hawkins)

I have only respect for a mind like Dr. Hawkins. If only he'd gotten a body to match...

And all people with serious disabilities should be given respect for perservering against such a challenge.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

You know I really hope you guys are still in school because I just despair at the stupidity I see in this section of the forum, I truly do. I mean, what are they teaching instead of grammar/common sense/rational thinking/science etc?

Everything about this sentence is insulting...

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

The fact is, humans don't share dreams. Dreaming is a private conscious experience caused by neural activity just like waking perception is a private experience.

And here you are stating as fact something that has not been proven.

Originally Posted by DreamQueen

I know you'd all love to have some amazing ability that puts you in the limelight and makes you feel important talking all about it, but the fact is, none of you does. You're all just a bunch of hairless monkeys sharing the planet with 6 billion other monkeys each of whom wish they were the Golden Monkey.

For starters, everyone is important. Every living thing is important and precious. Including you. Second, I would rather not be noticed. I have been doing shared dreaming for almost 15 years and said nothing to anyone because I knew there would be people who responded like you do. Why can't we just agree to disagree and be respectful of each other? I will continue believing in shared dreams and you can continue thinking I am stark raving mad. There are others who think that. Let's just stop this bickering which is making us both look bad. So what do you say? Truce?

**DreamQueen** · 10-19-2009 12:46 AM

Sorry, but picking out one or two quotes that are insulting does not constitute proof that I'm "always doing this" and am "endlessly negative".

Furthermore, it's rather back-handed to pick out the one or two quotes where I vent some frustration out of over 800 of my posts on this forum where I have posted intelligent, helpful, friendly advice and conversation, to try and make me look bad and then ask for a truce.

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 12:50 AM

You can't change what you don't acknowledge.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

For starters, everyone is important. Every living thing is important and precious. Including you. Second, I would rather not be noticed. I have been doing shared dreaming for almost 15 years and said nothing to anyone because I knew there would be people who responded like you do. Why can't we just agree to disagree and be respectful of each other? I will continue believing in shared dreams and you can continue thinking I am stark raving mad. There are others who think that. Let's just stop this bickering which is making us both look bad. So what do you say? Truce?

If you believe it so much, and you've been doing it for 15 years...

GO AND TEACH PEOPLE WITH CHRONIC DISABILITY HOW TO DO IT.

If you really think every living thing is precious, why are you wasting your ability, screwing around on forums, pretending to be computer game characters in shared dreams with healthy people.

When you COULD be setting people free from a life where they cannot even tell their loved ones "I love you"

**DreamQueen** · 10-19-2009 01:04 AM

Generally when you want to call a truce with someone you just do it. You don't continue to make your case and/or try and make the other person look bad and then say "oh but hows about a truce"? You might as well say "I'm right, shall we just leave it at that?"

Anyway, this whole attack on my character is just an ad hominem argument; Designed to try and discredit the points I'm making and provide a smokescreen to deflect attention and confuse the audience.

I'm sure if I was as constantly rude and insulting as you are trying to make out I am then the admin would have done something about it. But, quite the opposite has happened in fact, the details of which I'm not going to disclose since I don't really have to justify myself on this forum to you.

Anyway, have a nice day and do please consider going and teaching disabled people how to dream share as spaceexplorer suggests.

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 01:05 AM

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

If you believe it so much, and you've been doing it for 15 years...

GO AND TEACH PEOPLE WITH CHRONIC DISABILITY HOW TO DO IT.

If you really think every living thing is precious, why are you wasting your ability, screwing around on forums, pretending to be computer game characters in shared dreams with healthy people.

When you COULD be setting people free from a life where they cannot even tell their loved ones "I love you"

Good idea.

I might just do that.

And interacting with and helping people in the dream state is not a game. Those are real people with real souls. And before you respond, I know you think that is a load of BS. And you have a right to believe that. But I also have a right to my own beliefs.

Wow! I think I have to thank you.

Nothing restores a person's beliefs faster than having to stand up and defend them! When I got to this forum my doubt was overpowering me. But now it is virtually gone!

**Loaf** · 10-19-2009 01:09 AM

Pity about our time zones. If you could drag me into a shared dream I'd give you a lucid cake.

I envy you, somewhat. That is if its true. Naturally I still have doubts.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Good idea.

I might just do that.

And interacting with and helping people in the dream state is not a game. Those are real people with real souls. And before you respond, I know you think that is a load of BS. And you have a right to believe that. But I also have a right to my own beliefs.

Wow! I think I have to thank you.

Nothing restores a person's beliefs faster than having to stand up and defend them! When I got to this forum my doubt was overpowering me. But now it is virtually gone!

You've defended them?
And you think you've done a good job?

Wow.

If it wasn't so tragic, I'd laugh.
Instead, im just hear with my mouth wide open thinking... "and i share a planet with these people?"

It worries me.
It really does.

Has a time portal opened from the medival ages, and you lot have just got here and started posting in forums?

And don't get me started on "souls"...

**DreamQueen** · 10-19-2009 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

Good idea.

I might just do that.

And interacting with and helping people in the dream state is not a game. Those are real people with real souls. And before you respond, I know you think that is a load of BS. And you have a right to believe that. But I also have a right to my own beliefs.

Wow! I think I have to thank you.

Nothing restores a person's beliefs faster than having to stand up and defend them! When I got to this forum my doubt was overpowering me. But now it is virtually gone!

Oh good, a happy ending. Pleased to have reinforced your belief, R/N. Maybe this is your calling and you should dedicate your life to helping people who are 100% paralyzed learn to share dreams.

Good luck with it all in the future.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Loaf

Pity about our time zones. If you could drag me into a shared dream I'd give you a lucid cake.

I envy you, somewhat. That is if its true. Naturally I still have doubts.

You show promise of someone with intelligence, a natural curiosity but still a level of discernment that stops you accepting any old twaddle on face value.

I take my hat off to you.

oh... but don't worry about time zones... apparently, according to this lot, you don't even need to be in REM at the same time to share dreams.
So technically... we're all in dreamland sharing thoughts, even when we are awake... cause, you know, time dosn't exist.

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

And don't get me started on "souls"...

It will all be answered in the end. If you are right, then nothing. If I am right, I'll be waiting with a big fat (and yes, immature)

**Loaf** · 10-19-2009 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

You show promise of someone with intelligence, a natural curiosity but still a level of discernment that stops you accepting any old twaddle on face value.

I take my hat off to you.

Thanks.

I simply don't like being made a fool of, so I am cautious about information I am told. Despite that, I am quite into philosophy and like to question things anyway. I like to keep an open but logical mind.

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

It will all be answered in the end. If you are right, then nothing. If I am right, I'll be waiting with a big fat (and yes, immature)

Well, maybe you're right about a soul and wrong about where that fits into things.

Because if say, the jehovah witnesses are right...
Burning in hell for eternity, will be a lot more funny, seeing you there burning eternally with your eternal soul... with eternal egg (frying) on your face..

Be great to have a soul then eh?

I'll go with the more sensible answer,
What happens when you die, is exactly like what happened before you were born.

The universe existed, but you and I didn't.
It's a much less self important, self involved and conceited answer.

**Midnight Traveler** · 10-19-2009 01:37 AM

I have to say 'wow' again.

I thought I'd found another shared dreaming thread but it's just a bunch of people arguing

again! Thank you to those who welcomed me, but I think I will go elsewhere.

Seth

**spaceexplorer** · 10-19-2009 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight Traveler

I have to say 'wow' again.

I thought I'd found another shared dreaming thread but it's just a bunch of people arguing

again! Thank you to those who welcomed me, but I think I will go elsewhere.

Seth

Suprised you shared dreamers need forums at all... why not all just meet up in your dreams and chat there.

Close the door quietly on your way out.

**Midnight Traveler** · 10-19-2009 01:51 AM

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Suprised you shared dreamers need forums at all... why not all just meet up in your dreams and chat there.

Close the door quietly on your way out.

Gee. When you apologized for the 'stupid' comment I thought you were a nice person. I guess that shows what I know.

I've read a lot of your posts. Does putting others down make you feel big? Don't bother answering. I'm sure you have some smart sounding remark. And I'm not a shared dreamer, either. I don't know if I believe in it or not. But senseless arguing

won't convince me either way. Ok. Now I'm not going to get caught up in this argument.

and I know how easily that can happen! Been there, done that.

Seth

**Loaf** · 10-19-2009 01:55 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight Traveler

Gee. When you apologized for the 'stupid' comment I thought you were a nice person. I guess that shows what I know.

I've read a lot of your posts. Does putting others down make you feel big? Don't bother answering. I'm sure you have some smart sounding remark. And I'm not a shared dreamer, either. I don't know if I believe in it or not. But senseless arguing

won't convince me either way. Ok. Now I'm not going to get caught up in this argument.

and I know how easily that can happen! Been there, done that.

Seth

Now now, don't confuse passion and opinion with personal attacks. Many internet forums are much more harsh than this one. You shouldn't let a few sour experiences ruin your time here anyway.

**Raven Knight** · 10-19-2009 02:04 AM

Originally Posted by Midnight Traveler

Gee. When you apologized for the 'stupid' comment I thought you were a nice person. I guess that shows what I know.

I've read a lot of your posts. Does putting others down make you feel big? Don't bother answering. I'm sure you have some smart sounding remark. And I'm not a shared dreamer, either. I don't know if I believe in it or not. But senseless arguing

won't convince me either way. Ok. Now I'm not going to get caught up in this argument.

and I know how easily that can happen! Been there, done that.

Seth

I hope you don't leave due to a few bad apples.

I also didn't want to get into this argument. I let myself get pulled in. Add people who offend you to your 'ignore' list and the rest of us can have civilized discussions without mud slinging.