Thread: Shared Dreaming Experiment: Space Explorer and Waking Nomad

I'm rather skeptical that this experiment will do anything more than to give spaceexplorer even more reason to call BS on anything related to shared dreaming. But good luck.

Well, I'd like to propose an experiment.
I've taken on board what you've had to say and have a few thoughts on the matter.

First and most importantly, I am more than happy to give you permission to share dreams.
There is no question in this, I would be incredibly happy for the phenomena to be proven, and would happily eat my words, if you can prove it.


Ok with that out of the way, I need to address some of the issues at hand here.
From what you've said, it seems you would be happiest with just us both agreeing to share dreams, then keeping dream journals to reflect if we have.

Whilst, this may be a fun casual approach, It's got some huge flaws.
Firstly, and without wanting to sound flippant, that approach is essentially like playing snap, whilst at the same time educating each others minds as to the most possible dream themes that each other are likely to experience.

With the suggestable nature of the dreaming mind, it would only be a matter of time, of reading each others journals, that we would start to experience similar themes, simply based on suggestion alone... that combined with a game of psychological "snap", looking for patterns in the dreams, we are bound to see patterns, where there may be none, or at least none that are evidence of a genuine shared dream experience.
We would both be supplying each other with a psychological profile, and on top of that treating our dreams like some kind of noctural inkblot test.


SO, with those criticisms aside, here is the experiment I suggest, It is not experimentally perfect, but it should rule out any kind of non-dream-sharing influence, and i'm sure will be both educational and acceptable to most members of the forum.



The Experiment.

The experiment will last one week, starting on the evening of Sunday the 18th (the full moon) by GMT standard time.
It will end on the morning of the Sunday 25th.

I shall choose an image, that I will try and send to you, either in a shared dream, or via dream telepathy, obviously aiming for a shared dream, but either would be fine.
I will create a gmail account, before the experiment starts, and email the image to that gmail account. This provide evidence that the image choosen has not been changed during the experiment... as i will provide the email login details should anyone wish to check this at the end of the experiment.

Other than the email address, nobody other than myself will be made aware of what this image is.

During my dreams, as a proficient lucid dreamer, i shall attempt to open my mind to contact you, summon you up as it were.
I will then try and project this image in as many means possible...
I will make the dream scene change to this image, speak the image description out loud, feel the mood of the image etc.
Anything that I possibly can during the dream. This will continue during each dream that week. Also whilst awake, i will take time to project the image to you via some kind of meditation.

I will be keeping my usual private written dream journal, which may be available for scrutiny after the experiment.

During the week, I shall not post any dreamjournal entries in the forum, I will not discuss the project, or do anything that could influence or give you "clues" about the choosen image.

However, during this week, WakingNomad, as you are the one who shall be reciving the image, if you could post any dreams in which you feel contact was made in this thread. That is all that is required of you. Just be honest, keep an open mind.

At the end of the week when the experiment is over, so as the knowledge will not influence me during the sending, I will ask a random friend of mine, not a forum member, to choose ANY image they wish, and to email me this image... this image will act as a control against the original.

At this point, I will post both the actual image and the control image into the forum.
We can then ask, perhaps via a poll and discussion, any interested forum members to judge your weeks dreams, against both images. They are to look for any evidence in your dreams, that either of the images were picked up.
Once voting and discussion has been completed, I shall reveal the actual sent image, and offer the email credentials for the gmail account for conformation.

I think this is a fair, and simple experiment, it rules out us simply influencing each others dreams by other means.
It will also be fascinating to see the results, especially considering the judges will also not be influenced as they will be in the dark to the actually transmitted image, until their conclusions have been considered.







ps. I would have prefered to sent a number or something more specific, but I am trying to appeal to the criteria you requested

spaceexplorer, I agree with everything said in the first part of your post.

But as for your proposed experiment, I see a few issues.

First of all, it seems more like an experiment in telepathy than shared dreaming. Especially since you will be projecting this image both during wake and sleep.

Secondly, how often do you lucid dream? And how would you go about attempting to dream share with someone? What techniques would you use? I ask because I've spoken with many people who claim to have true dream sharing experiences, and the techniques they used were very different from typical "dream summoning" type stuff. It's much more involved.

Thirdly, from my own personal experience and those whom I have spoken with, dream sharing most often occurs between two people who have a strong connection. Like siblings for instance. I spent months getting "in sync" with my dream sharing partner on the DV a few years back before we started having even the smallest results which could be seen as more than odd coincidences. (I'm not saying this is how it always is or has to be, just that I think it's more likely that two people who are at least friends have a better chance of success)

Fourth, from what I've seen you are extremely quick to disbelieve and disprove anything beyond dreaming related. I understand that you would like for things like this to exist, and are therefore probably extremely sick of all the BS or unsubstantiated claims of "proof" from shady sources and would like some solid evidence. So would I. But I also believe that you are too quick to dismiss and attempt to rationalize things and that your consistently skeptical mindset will be counter productive in this experiment.

Fifth, again like I said, it seems like this experiment proposed by you is being set up for failure, so that you can again go on to claim that dream sharing is BS. One week iss not a reasonable amount of time to disprove that something like dream sharing exists.

If you really do want to experiment with dream sharing, I suggest you do a little more research and speak with those who have some substantial evidence and get some advice from them on how they managed to enter someone else's dream. It's not an easy thing to do (or else there WOULD be real proof/studies/etc). Personally, what WakingNomad describes, I cannot accept as dream sharing for the reasons you stated in your post above. No offense WakingNomad, that's just my opinion.

Anyways, whatever you guys decide to do, best of luck.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

spaceexplorer, I agree with everything said in the first part of your post.

But as for your proposed experiment, I see a few issues.

First of all, it seems more like an experiment in telepathy than shared dreaming. Especially since you will be projecting this image both during wake and sleep.

Secondly, how often do you lucid dream? And how would you go about attempting to dream share with someone? What techniques would you use? I ask because I've spoken with many people who claim to have true dream sharing experiences, and the techniques they used were very different from typical "dream summoning" type stuff. It's much more involved.

Thirdly, from my own personal experience and those whom I have spoken with, dream sharing most often occurs between two people who have a strong connection. Like siblings for instance. I spent months getting "in sync" with my dream sharing partner on the DV a few years back before we started having even the smallest results which could be seen as more than odd coincidences. (I'm not saying this is how it always is or has to be, just that I think it's more likely that two people who are at least friends have a better chance of success)

Fourth, from what I've seen you are extremely quick to disbelieve and disprove anything beyond dreaming related. I understand that you would like for things like this to exist, and are therefore probably extremely sick of all the BS or unsubstantiated claims of "proof" from shady sources and would like some solid evidence. So would I. But I also believe that you are too quick to dismiss and attempt to rationalize things and that your consistently skeptical mindset will be counter productive in this experiment.

Fifth, again like I said, it seems like this experiment proposed by you is being set up for failure, so that you can again go on to claim that dream sharing is BS. One week iss not a reasonable amount of time to disprove that something like dream sharing exists.

If you really do want to experiment with dream sharing, I suggest you do a little more research and speak with those who have some substantial evidence and get some advice from them on how they managed to enter someone else's dream. It's not an easy thing to do (or else there WOULD be real proof/studies/etc). Personally, what WakingNomad describes, I cannot accept as dream sharing for the reasons you stated in your post above. No offense WakingNomad, that's just my opinion.

Anyways, whatever you guys decide to do, best of luck.

Essentially, dream sharing and dream telepahty should share a common mechanism so I don't think that should be an issue. What i am trying to do here is to not limit the communication... be it a shared dream, or dream telepathy, either result proven would be something quite remarkable. So it seems fair to approach the situation with an open mind that either could happen... this should, in reality improve the chances of the experiment suceeding as there are now two potential types of dream communication open.

As for how often I lucid dream, I've been lucid dreaming since i was a child, and am now in my early 30s. I can lucid dream essentially at will (with the correct motivation).

We cannot get around the "connection between people" issue unfotunatly, even if we could, the same experimental method would still be required to rule out other forms of influence.
Perhaps a week is not long enough, but let's be honest here, it would be incredibly hard to sustain a level of commitment for longer periods than this. There is also, the chance that similar experiments could be run in the future. So let's not jump to conclusions here.

The experiment is not "set up to fail", it is set up to be as objective as possible, and to arrive at a clear answer.
Even if it does fail, we will at least have some interesting things to debate...
For example, how many people see evidence of the control image in the dreams... will be a fascinating example of how the human mind can find patterns.

As for my education on the subject, I've been studying pretty much every aspect of dreaming for as long as i can remember. I have myself even had seemingly shared dream experienences, which is obviously pushed me into researching that area itself.


Shall we just let the experiment pan out, without trying to justify why it wont work before we even start?

I agree with the limited communication. I suppose it seems a bit one sided though, with you merely attempting to pass an image on, and being the only one trying to do the contacting. I think that both parties should actively be involved in attempting to enter each other's dreams, and both parties should keep a dream journal of the weeks events that is kept private until the end of the week, and then they can be analyzed by the rest of us.

I guess what I meant by set up to fail, is the impression I got from your proposed experiment is like you're testing WakingNomad, rather than attempting to really share a dream.

Shall we just let the experiment pan out, without trying to justify why it wont work before we even start? as that seems to me a bit of a way of trying to justify faliure before we even know what the results are.

Being an intelligent, rational individual I should think you would see the problem in this statement.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Being an intelligent, rational individual I should think you would see the problem in this statement.

Well, can we just try and offer contstructive criticism?
It's going to take effort and time to do this experiment, and I really don't want to be entering into too much of a debate in this thread as it is a distraction from the point of the thread. I completely see your point, but we have to work under certain limitations.
If you can think of a better experimental design, or improvements, that would be great.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

I agree with the limited communication. I suppose it seems a bit one sided though, with you merely attempting to pass an image on, and being the only one trying to do the contacting. I think that both parties should actively be involved in attempting to enter each other's dreams, and both parties should keep a dream journal of the weeks events that is kept private until the end of the week, and then they can be analyzed by the rest of us.

I guess what I meant by set up to fail, is the impression I got from your proposed experiment is like you're testing WakingNomad, rather than attempting to really share a dream.

Well, Nomad has made the claim that he can dream share... i don't claim to have that skill, so i'm not "testing him", im just trying to make the process as simple as possible, to avoid confusion.
I could TRY and get into his dream, but really considering that I don't have that skill, i'd have about as much luck as trying to speak french.
I will of course, be using whatever i can to be open to dream sharing, perhaps it isn't worded correctly... even if that means me having to track him down in the dreamscape, and then share the information.

I will be keeping a private dream journal, and it will be shared at the end of the experiment.

The reason I think it is good for nomad to share his journal, is that it gives us a timescale of when his experiences happens, and as he is only trying to share a dream to get information from me, his influence on me via his journal won't effect the experimental conditions.

I can understand where you are coming from, but for a simple test, I think this is the best approach for now. But if you wish, we could ask Nomad to also keep his journal private, until just before the images are revealed.

I agree that 1 week is not enough time to be sure. But the real key point, is to make sure the image you're trying to send to him is very general. Different archetypes make for different appearances, and if you're really trying to be scientific about it, then you should remove any possibility of that having an effect.

Just a few thoughts...

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Fifth, again like I said, it seems like this experiment proposed by you is being set up for failure, so that you can again go on to claim that dream sharing is BS. One week iss not a reasonable amount of time to disprove that something like dream sharing exists.

I don't know where you get the idea that S/E wants it to fail. How many times does he have to say on this website that he would LOVE to be proven wrong about any one of these supernatural phenomena you guys talk about in BD? He and I often talk about how amazing it would be if telepathy, premonitions etc were ever proven to occur. And by "proven" I mean in the way that we know penicillin kills bacteria and that rainbows are caused by light rays refracting through water droplets. It would open up a whole new dimension to explore and discover and it would change the way we view the universe. It would be so exciting!

What he has done however is design an experiment that makes it impossible to deliberately cheat. So, the only way you can prove it is to actually do it (unless you get lucky and happen to guess it the way sometimes people guess the winning lottery numbers). I'm picking that could pose a problem to those who want to maintain their status as someone with amazing abilities which we all wish we'd been the ones born with

Having said that, although it is impossible to cheat, unfortunately I'm afraid that the design is indeed flawed. I have done a university paper entitled 'Research Methods' and one experiment is simply not a large enough sample size to be able to arrive at a statistically significant conclusion for this type of investigation. The main problem is that W/N could just happen to dream about whatever picture S/E happened to choose. It's kind of like this: Imagine I wanted to prove to you guys that I could predict the number a dice would land on every time. So, we all stand around in a room and I call out "four!" Then one of you throws the dice and it lands on four. Would you be happy for me to walk away at that point all concluding that DQ can indeed predict a dice before it lands? I don't think so.

The point is, say S/E were to choose a picture of the clown from the movie Poltergeist and then W/N dreamed about a lot of things that week and he just happened to dream about a clown which he was going to dream about anyway because he'd seen one in the street a few days earlier and the word "clown" appeared on his list, could we really conclude that WOW SHARED DREAMING OCCURRED?

No. Sorry.

Someone needs to conduct what is known as a "confidence test" to work out how large your sample size would need to be. It would certainly be more than one. There are some types of experiements where a sample size of one is enough to draw a correct conclusion, but this is not one of those types.

I'm really sorry to burst the bubble here but there's just as much chance that W/N will dream about the control picture as he will about the target picture. The result will tell us nothing as we can't rule out chance as the sample size isn't large enough. You guys would probably need to do this for about ten weeks, maybe longer, in order to rule out chance. Otherwise you could end up incorrectly concluding that shared dreaming is possible when it may not be.

In other words, you're wasting your time to only do it once. Either do it properly or don't do it at all. Because even if W/N comes on and says "I got it! It's a clown and something to do with ghosts!" how can you be certain it wasn't coincidence? He needs to be able to get it correct consistently and repeatedly, not just once.

Well, I'd like to propose an experiment.
I've taken on board what you've had to say and have a few thoughts on the matter.

First and most importantly, I am more than happy to give you permission to share dreams.
There is no question in this, I would be incredibly happy for the phenomena to be proven, and would happily eat my words, if you can prove it.

Ok with that out of the way, I need to address some of the issues at hand here.
From what you've said, it seems you would be happiest with just us both agreeing to share dreams, then keeping dream journals to reflect if we have.

To reflect if we have, but also to get to know each other's dream personality.

Whilst, this may be a fun casual approach, It's got some huge flaws.
Firstly, and without wanting to sound flippant, that approach is essentially like playing snap, whilst at the same time educating each others minds as to the most possible dream themes that each other are likely to experience.

I don't know what you mean by "playing snap." Is that a game?

With the suggestable nature of the dreaming mind, it would only be a matter of time, of reading each others journals, that we would start to experience similar themes, simply based on suggestion alone... that combined with a game of psychological "snap", looking for patterns in the dreams, we are bound to see patterns, where there may be none, or at least none that are evidence of a genuine shared dream experience.
We would both be supplying each other with a psychological profile, and on top of that treating our dreams like some kind of noctural inkblot test.

If you read the shared dream journal of Raven Knight and I, you will see that some of the dreams are not similar themes, but the same dream from two different perspectives. The chances of this happening by seeing patterns in each other's dream journals are nearly impossible.

Here is one of many examples:
Originally Posted by WakingNomad View Post

10.10.2009
Epic Dream Chain (WILD)

NON-DREAM DREAM LUCID

Selene's Rest
I was on the Moon. Raven was waiting there for me. "Are you ready to go?" she asked, creating a portal. "I'm ready!"
"Are you sure you're ready?"
"Let's do it!"
"Okay!" she said, and went through. I followed her. Everything was a blur for a second on the other side.
"Shit. Where is Selene?"
"I don't know."
"Okay, I am going back. I'll be right back."
"I'll be fine."
"I know." I went back through.

"Where is Selene?" I wondered.
"Nomad," she spoke to me telepathically, "I am in the sick bay of the Tower."
I teleported to her. She was half asleep on the hospital bed. I stroked her hair. A medical droid rolled out of the room carrying a tray of something.
"What's wrong?" I asked quietly.
"Don't worry about me. I'll be fine. I am safe here now," she said. "Go fight with Raven," she needs your help.
"But-" she interrupted me by reaching up and weakly caressing my cheek.
"Just go." She fell asleep. I kissed her hand, and set it down. I bent over and kissed her cheek.

The dream faded. I woke up hours later, and continued the dream.

Assassin's Creed Dimension
I was on the moon. I was supposed to do something here... What was it? No, time. Raven needs my help. I hoped I could find her. I created a purple vortex portal, and focused on going to her. I went through. I fell out of the portal about ten feet above the ground in a forest.
Raven and Altair were thundering toward me on horses. Raven's horse was black with a bright red mane, tail and fetlocks. Altair's was brown, with a white mane, tail, and fetlocks. Raven scooped me up, and I was on the back of her horse. We were being pursued by Templars on horseback. I fired white arrows out from a small white bow at the enemies hitting quite a few marks.
"The witch has created an ally!" one of the Templars shouted. I thought it was funny they thought Raven Knight created me.

"Take the reigns!" she shouted over the thundering of hooves. She turned and faced the Templars. Music came out of her, roaring drumbeats, and she summoned lightning from the sky, killing the remaining Templars, but the horses were unscathed.

We got off the horses at the edge of the forest. A great walled city was before us. "Who is your ally?" said Altair to Raven. He looked at me, as if he somehow knew me and was trying to remember. I looked at him. He reminded me of someone....

"No time for that," said Raven. "We are still being pursued. We must melt into the crowd of the city."

We walked into the city. We were in an open market. It was noisy and crowded. We tread upon a cobblestone road. People were selling all kinds of food that I had never seen before. All the merchants were yelling so loudly, you had to shout to the person next to you to be heard over the din.

"I can feel them coming closer," said Raven. "Stop looking around like a foreigner! We have to keep going."

"AHA!" said a loud voice above the din. The crowd quieted. A Templar was behind us. He pointed his sword at us. "There is the assassin, and his witch friend." He looked at me confused, for a second. "Another assassin! Kill them all!" Templars behind him rushed at us. I was concerned for the civilians. I turned on my energy shield and kneeled, which simultaneously created a hemisphere of protection around the three of us, and pushed the civilians back.
The Templars rushed at us. I turned off my shield, and absorbed the nearest one. I felt dark energy flow into me. I stood up and coughed, and wiped my mouth, grinnly menacingly at the Templars. As I coughed, tendrils of dark energy protruded from my skin for a second then disappeared back into me.

"A demon! The witch hath summoned forth a demon ally!" they shouted.
"What the hell did you do that for?" said Raven.
"I wanted to see what would happen. I wanted to see if these were real entities."

"You're nuts. We have to get out of here. It's too crowded to fight," said Raven. Raven put her hands on the shoulder of Altair and I, and teleported us to another part of the forest.

Fight in the Forest
We were without enemies. "Those bastards are going to show up soon," said Raven.

I grew in size, to a giant Nomad. "That is not very stealthy," said Raven.
"Oh right." I changed into a hill.
"What is that going to do?"
"Um..."
I changed into a great tree with dark grey brown bark. "Good!" Raven laughed. Altair was staring at me quizzically.

"Here they come!" said Raven hoarsely. Raven and Altair took cover, and I couldn't see them. I closed my mouth and my eyes to hide my face in my tree body.

The Templars were on foot. I heard the leader say, "Hmm... They are close. I can smell 'em." He sniffed the air. Raven stood up from the bushes. "AH-GGHKK!" He was about to point at Raven, but Altair appeared behind him and slit his throat, then disappeared.

"Ah the assassin is among us!" one of the Templars shouted in fear. I opened one eye. There were quite a good number, about forty. We were definitely outnumbered. The Templars eyes were like two tiny black holes.

Raven summoned lightning again. She killed some in front. One Templar shouted, "Charge!" and they rushed at Raven, running within my reach. I reached down and grabbed two of them with my great tree arms, crushing them to death. The assault was misdirected as they became confused and panicked. I rumbled at them, and it sounded like an earthquake.

"The witch has summoned a demon! Attack the demon!" The Templars regrouped and rushed at me, with their swords. I scooped them up, crushing them in my hands, and tossing them against trees. Others came closer, and tried to hack at me, but I trampled them under my great wooden feet. "I love being an Ent!" I thought. "This is so badass!" They shot arrows at me. It felt like being stuck with little needles. The Templars closer to me began to run away. "Attack! Attack! Attack!" shouted the second in command.

Raven summoned lightning again, and Altair was running among them, a white blur, slitting their throats from behind. "Kill the witch! The demon will disappear! Focus on the witch!" The Templars that were left all charged Raven Knight. Altair and Raven drew their swords. Two bolts of lightning came down from the sky again, and crackled on the swords of Raven and Altair. Raven and Altair became separated in the battle. Templars surrounded Raven. She did a spin attack, and Altair used the distraction, to stab one in the back.

All the Templars were gone. There were no bodies. Just empty armor with a putrid smoke rising from it.

I changed back into Nomad form. Raven opened a portal. She looked at Altair. "You can come with us, if you want to," she said to him. We stepped through.

Healing Raven Knight
We were back in the biodome on the moon. Raven looked ill. She began losing balance. She fell into Altair's arms. "I know where we have to go," I said. I created a portal. "Follow me," I told Altair.

We were in the Glen of Healing. Altair got a strange expression on his face. He looked down at Raven. He ripped something off of her back that looked like a cross between a crab and a stingray, and threw it on the grass, then he leapt upon it, and stabbed it with a dagger. It dissipated. Raven had two wounds on her upper back where the parasite had bitten her.

He laid Raven down in the grass. I turned into Pan. I summoned a conch shell and blew it. Instantly the Frost Giant appeared. "You don't need to do that to call me, cousin!" he said to me. "I already knew you were here. Save that for battle."

"I wanted to see what would happen," I said sheepishly, and turned back into my Nomad self. He laughed merrily, and looked at Raven. "Hmm. Another parasite attack." He looked at me. "You lie down in the grass, too."

I lied down in the grass and closed my eyes. Altair was looking at the Frost Giant curiously. He blew herbs from his hands which flew into Raven's wounds. A bunch of tiny little black astral ticks scampered off me, and were gobbled up by little frogs.

The Frost Giant picked up Raven like she was a small child and said to Altair and I, "Follow me."

We were in the cave of the Frost Giant. "Hi!" said Joseph, and ran to me and gave me a hug. I tousled his hair. The frost giant laid Raven down on a bed of hay in the rear of the cave. He withdrew a flask of red glowing liquid from a bag, lifted her head, and tilted it to her lips. "Drink this," he gently spoke to her.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

From Raven Knight's Dream:

I fell asleep with my light/sound machine and did a WILD to the moon…

I was on the moon. I looked around. I saw the tower in the distance. I figured I would go there. That would be a good place to find Nomad. I teleported into the biodome. I petted a Rottweiler / Shepherd mix that came over to meet me. There were some other dogs playing around. I heard a dog whimpering. I followed the sound. I found Selene. She was sitting by the pond gazing blankly out over it. There was a black Pit Bull licking her face and whimpering in a concerned manner. Selene wasn't responding to the dog. I went over to them.

"Selene?" I asked. She didn't respond. "Selene? Are you ok?" I asked. Still no response. I looked around but I didn't see Nomad. I tried to telepathically contact Nomad. I got no response. I touched Selene on the shoulder. She looked up at me. She had a blank look in her eyes. They seemed darker than normal. I had the idea she needed healing. I took her hand and tried to get her to stand up. She stood easily enough. I led her through the biodome to the bed of grass brought from the healing glen. Selene lied down on the grass and looked quite relaxed. I focused on the song Full Moonlight. I instinctively felt that was the right song to use. White energy flowed through Selene as the song played. When the song was over Selene focused on me for the first time.

"Raven?" she asked as if a bit disoriented.

"How do you feel?" I asked her.

"Tired," she said.

"Then maybe you should rest," I said.

Selene closed her eyes and seemed to fall asleep. I stayed there and watched her sleep for a couple of minutes to be sure everything looked ok. I was about to walk away when she disappeared. I wondered where she had gone. I didn't sense that she was in any danger. I thought maybe I should check on her to see where she had gone. I was going to but I was awakened by my cats getting into an argument…

I was in a strange place. I looked around to see where I was. It was a town like one I would see in an RPG. It wasn't a big city. It was a small village. There were people walking around and talking. There were only a few merchant booths with merchants talking to the people who were walking by. It was a peaceful setting. I walked over to one of the merchant booths. He was selling a wide variety of crap. Or at least it looked like crap to me. I had the idea I needed to find my mother a birthday present. I didn't want to buy her crap. I went to the next booth. There were some nice things there. I looked at a couple of them. I saw a couple of price tags. I wondered if I had any money. I reached into a bag strapped to my waist (I was wearing white robes). I didn’t find any money. I pulled a Homer Simpson (D'Oh!). How could I buy my mom a present without money? I was frustrated. I walked away from the merchant booth. I was trying to think how I could get some money when the silence was broken. There was a thundering coming. It sounded like a herd of horses. All of the people ran for shelter. I noticed the merchant stand where I had spotted possible presents for my mom was unwatched now. Maybe I could just go over and snag something…

A horse came past the stand at full gallop. It was a dark brown horse with a lighter mane and tail. An arrow hit the horse in the ass. The horse threw off its rider and bolted with the arrow still sticking out of its rear. I wondered what a$$hole had shot the horse, I looked and saw more horses approaching at a gallop. I looked at the man who had been thrown from his horse. Those others were after him. I went to him to see if he was ok. He was not hurt. He got up and looked at me. It was Altaïr. If I was looking at Altaïr then I must be dreaming…

"Raven!" Altaïr said, "Hurry! They're coming!"

I looked at the approaching horses. I could see them well enough now to see there were Templars riding those horses. I focused on the song Battery and lightning struck at all of the Templars. Many of them were caught by surprise and got consumed by white lightning. As for the others, the horses were spooked and threw their riders before bolting off into a nearby forest. The remaining Templars were on foot. I used another bolt of lightning to charge Altaïr's and my swords with a bolt of lightning. The remaining Templars, there were seven of them left, arrived and attacked us. We fought them off using our electrically charged swords. The final Templar was coming at me when Altaïr got him from behind. He fell to the ground and was consumed by white lightning. I saw Altaïr's hidden blade was sparking. Apparently he had charged it with the energy on his sword.

"There's more coming," Altaïr said, "I saw them from the crest of that mountain."

I looked around and spotted Altaïr's horse. The arrow was still protruding from its rear. There was some blood, but the wound didn't look serious. I went over to the horse and pulled the arrow out as quickly as I could. The horse whinnied in pain and kicked out. I pet the horse to calm it and used Voices from the Macross Plus soundtrack to heal the wound. I told Altaïr his horse was fine now. A horse nuzzled me. It was a white horse with a red mane and tail. The horse was familiar to me. I climbed on the horse as Altaïr got on his horse. I could hear more horses coming. Altaïr and I took off and headed for a forest near the town. We could lose them there.

We entered the forest and kept going as quickly as we could. I could hear the Templars coming from behind. They were getting closer. Something felt strange. It felt like someone was trying to find me. I instinctively wanted that connection to be successful. I focused on Through the Never to make the connection work more easily. A portal opened up ahead of Altaïr and me. Nomad fell out and managed to land on his feet. I held my hand out to him as we rode past and helped him get onto my horse behind me with a jump. He started firing white arrows at the Templars that were emerging behind us. There were too many of them. I looked back. I focused on the song Battery. I didn't know if the Templars would be expecting that so I tried to use more power than usual. The lightning crashed down and broke right through their shields. The Templars were consumed by white lightning leaving behind some confused and spooked horses.

"Your friend came back, too, I see," Altaïr said, "Or at least one of them did. We need all the help we can get. They're not holding back this time."

Note: Somewhere in here during the ride to the city I slipped into semi-lucidity...

I figured if he was saying that then there must be more Templars. I tried to sense where their dark energy was. There were more of them. They were coming. It seemed like so many. Maybe we would be best to avoid them for now. We rode up to a walled city. We left our horses in a stable there and entered the city on foot. It was a big place with many people going about their business and endless vendors hawking their wares. It was hard to hear myself think. I checked on the position of the Templars again. They were getting closer. They were still on our trail. I told the others that the Templars were coming, we should blend in with the locals so maybe they wouldn't find us. I looked and saw Altaïr was already gone. I could sense he was still close, but I couldn't spot him. Nomad was looking excitedly around at all of the action around us. I thought he could've been wearing a sign that said 'TOURIST' on his robes. I told him to blend in with the locals, just act like he belonged there. Too late…

"There!" came a voice from the gate, "It's the witch! And she's with an assassin! Kill them!"

The Templars started coming towards Nomad and me. One of them dropped dead and was consumed by white lightning. Altaïr had just stabbed him from behind with his still sparking hidden blade.

"Kill all of the assassins!" yelled a Templar. Now they came in full force. Altaïr came and joined us. Nomad formed a force field around the three of us. It pushed the civilians away. The civilians were realizing that a fight was about to break out and they were trying to run for cover. But there were so many of them they were having trouble getting out of the way. Nomad reached out and pulled a single Templar into the shield with us. I was about to ask why when he made like Alex Mercer off the video game Prototype and consumed the Templar.

"That's dark energy!" I said, "Don't consume that!" There was briefly a dark aura around Nomad and then he absorbed that as well. He glared at the other Templars as if daring them to get close enough for him to consume them as well.

"A demon!" one of the Templars yelled, "The witch has summoned a demon! Stop it or it will consume your soul!"

"We can't fight them here," Altaïr said, "Too many innocent people will get hurt…"

I focused on teleporting us to the forest. The next instant we were there. In a small clear area. The town wasn't far away. I could sense the Templars gathering together and heading straight for us. Damn! They must be able to track us somehow. I told Nomad and Altaïr that maybe we could ambush them. Nomad transformed to be 50 feet tall.

"Well…" I said, "If the Templars didn't know where we were before, they sure know now…" Altaïr was just staring at the 50 foot Nomad. Nomad shrunk back down and transformed into a big rock. I told him they would probably still sense us even if we blend in perfectly. They seem to be able to do that. Nomad transformed into an Ent like on Lord of the Rings. A big sentient tree that can move. "Cool! An Ent!"

Altaïr and I hid. Templars entered the clearing. One of them said he knew we were somewhere close… he could smell us. Without thinking I sniffed my armpits… no stink. It wasn't me they smelled. I felt a bit dumb for doing that. I had stood up. One of the Templars spotted me. He didn't get a chance to raise an alarm. He dropped dead and was consumed by white lightning. I caught a glimpse of Altaïr. Other Templars came at me. They ran too close to Nomad. He grabbed them in huge tree-hands and crushed them. Apparently their dark energy could not repair being crushed… The Templars were yelling about the demon now and shooting arrows at the tree that was Nomad. As in Lord of the Rings, arrows proved woefully ineffective against an Ent. He crushed some more of them. I used Battery. Lightning struck numerous Templars and also recharged Altaïr's and my swords and his hidden blade. The Templars seemed to be focusing on me. Someone said that if they killed the witch the demon would disappear. I was surrounded. I did a spin attack like on the Legend of Zelda. I cut down the Templars around me. When they were consumed by white lightning I saw Nomad crush a couple of Templars and Altaïr pulled his sword out of a Templar. That was the last of them.

Nomad transformed back to his normal form. I could still sense dark energy in him from the Templar he had consumed. I used Full Moonlight to purge that dark energy out. I felt a bit strange. I figured I had been doing too much. We should get somewhere safe. I focused on Through the Never to open a portal to the moon. A portal opened. Nomad stepped through it. I told Altaïr he could come if he wanted to. He followed me through the portal. It closed behind us.

We were now in the biodome. I was standing next to Altaïr. Nomad was looking at me strangely. Altaïr was looking around at his new surroundings. I heard him ask where we were. His voice was coming from a distance. I thought maybe I was going to wake up. I felt dizzy and everything faded to black. Just as everything went black I thought I felt myself in Altaïr's arms…

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The above dream is one of many which obviously eliminates the possibility that we are "mistaken" or simply having similar "themes". It's obviously the same dream from two different perspectives. So, the only other possibilities is that we are either lying, or one person with two accounts.
SO, with those criticisms aside, here is the experiment I suggest, It is not experimentally perfect, but it should rule out any kind of non-dream-sharing influence, and i'm sure will be both educational and acceptable to most members of the forum.

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ps. I would have prefered to sent a number or something more specific, but I am trying to appeal to the criteria you requested [/QUOTE]

I understand your desire for a control such as an unidentified image. This is more mental telepathy or dream telepathy. It would be much easier for us to actually share an experience, which is what a dream is, right? Not just a single image. Something as in depth as a dream is a series of many specific things, not just one. Logically, this even further eliminates the possibility of being "mistaken" or having a "similar theme."

Secondly, the idea of using a control: It would be just as easy for anyone to dismiss you and I or anyone online as it would be to dismiss Raven Knight and I, because you and I could be lying, or be one person with two accounts.

I am not out to convince anyone as I said before. The only reason I want to do this with you is because you said you would like to believe it's true. Since I am the one claiming to dream share, why not try and use the methods that I do to dream share?

If we did share a dream, especially after getting good at doing it together, there would be so many similarities, it would be impossible for you to disbelieve.

The very first time I tried anything like this, I wasn't sure if it would work or not, but wanted to try anyway. There were too many similarities to dismiss.

If you want to do this experiment, I think it should be labeled dream telepathy, not dream sharing, because a single image is not a dream. A dream is an experience.

On another note, I believe sharing dreams is a skill, just as dream control is a skill, which develops over time. Also, two people can get in and out of rhythm, just like two people paddling a canoe.

Since I am the one claiming to have this ability, why not try and learn from me since you are interested in doing it?

One another note, I believe people share dreams all the time, but they don't realize it. Shared lucid dreaming is what gives us the ability to stay in the same dream, and interact more fully. Just as lucid dreaming gives you awareness that you are dreaming, shared lucid dreaming gives you the awareness that you are dreaming with the other person.

I am not out to convince anyone as I said before. The only reason I want to do this with you is because you said you would like to believe it's true. Since I am the one claiming to dream share, why not try and use the methods that I do to dream share?

Well, the most important reasons, is that by using your methods, even if we were to have similar experiences, It would not convinving in the slightest.

You may see it as a strange idea, but I myself, if i'm going to believe in something, want to have evidence that I can share with others, that not only backs up what i am saying, but also shows my conclusions to be sensible... I don't want to come across as just another gullable type, who is willing to take any flimsy anecdote as evidence of something extraordinary.

There are plenty of occasions where i've gone to bed, having just had a particular conversation, or watching a film, only to then find that the conversation or film makes a huge impact on the theme of the dream.
I'm sure almost all dreamers can attest to this phenomena.

So, to spend time sharing journals, learning about each other etc.
would not be all that different from the film watching or conversation influence I just mentioned.

Your method does nothing to add weight to the idea of shared dreaming, instead it actually does quite the opposite and undermines your conclusion...

Here is an imperfect, but relevant analogy:

There are two people who claim to be psychic, they claim they can tell what a painter will paint before they can paint it.

One psychic, simply has to greet the painter, shake hands, and then retire to another room... where they write their prediction.

The other psychic, claims the only way he can make a connection, is to spend a couple of weeks observing the painter, seeing what style of painting she paints... and also claims that he is unlikely to get a direct match of the image, but will get the "intent" or "mood" of the painting. This psychic also claims that it will take time to get a "match", because you need to form a "connection".

Lets break down what the second psychic is really saying:

I need to spend a couple of weeks obsering the painter = I need to learn what the painter is likely to paint.

I only get the "mood" or "intent" of a painting = I will only make vague guesses which due to their vagueness allows them to be applicable to a wide spectrum of possible outcomes.

It takes time to make a connection, it may take a while before my prediction matches a painting = if i fail, it's because i havn't connected yet, if there is a match, that's me being psychic... not just down to chance. Or in other words, if i'm wrong it's not my fault, but if im right i take full responsibility.


What you are claiming is no different from the second painter, and if you can't see why that is utterly unconvincing, then that is a real worry.

All you are doing is exactly what the astrology section of the cheap newspapers do, making things as vague as possible, and then allowing people to find their own patterns.

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On a sidenote DreamQueen is completely right.

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Originally Posted by DreamQueen

I'm picking that could pose a problem to those who want to maintain their status as someone with amazing abilities which we all wish we'd been the ones born with

Yeah, um, who wants to let the facts stand in the way of a good story eh Waking Nomad?

So carry on and good luck.

Let us know how you get on with this

The "archetype" theory is such an obvious fudge.

"In my dream he was a tea pot but in his dream I was a chair".
Good to see SE calmly deconstruct it.

Its just a shame that its neccesary.
Thats humanity for you.

What ever happened to just meeting in the dream and then both waking yourselves up? Record the time you woke (a match would probably the best indicator of shared dreaming) and any details of the dream meeting.

Originally Posted by The Cusp

What ever happened to just meeting in the dream and then both waking yourselves up? Record the time you woke (a match would probably the best indicator of shared dreaming) and any details of the dream meeting.

One time I was very lucid and wanted to attempt to Dream Share with someone but couldn't think of anyone, I didn't have a partner at that time. So I decided to try to Dream Share with my sister. It was about 2am, and I very clearly remember how I entered her dream. In the dream she was bartending at the place where she works, and I just watched and observed her giving people drinks. I was like a ghost though, no one could see me. I tried to talk to her, but she was like on auto-pilot and paid me no attention. Then I tried screaming her name and woke myself up. Literally like 30 seconds later she calls me on the phone, and sounds extremely groggy. I was very shocked first of all, because my sister doesn't just randomly call me at 2am. She's says, "what did you want? why did you call me so late?" I reply, "Um, I didn't call you." She says, "Yeah you did, my phone rang and woke me up and I saw it was you calling." Then she paused for a moment, and said, "er, wait, my ringer is off. How the hell did my phone wake me up." And I said to her, "I never called you, but I was in your dream and tried screaming at you. Were you just dreaming about being at work?" She says she doesn't remember what she was dreaming about, she's pretty weirded out, and I apologize to her for trying to enter her dream without her permission. A few days later we talk about it and she's really fascinated by it and wants to try dream sharing, but I haven't tried again since for a few reasons. But maybe I should.

So the point of that little story, I agree that it would show nice evidence if you could wake each other up at a specific time and then record it. Nice suggestion The Cusp.

(oh, and as weird as this was, I'm still not entirely convinced, I'm rather skeptical but still open to the possibility that it was something shared dreaming related)

Originally Posted by moonshine

The "archetype" theory is such an obvious fudge.

"In my dream he was a tea pot but in his dream I was a chair".
Good to see SE calmly deconstruct it.

Its just a shame that its neccesary.
Thats humanity for you.

This is not correct. The human mind will automatically try to interpret and understand anything it sees. So if two people see the exact same thing they may interpret it differently. Just look at this optical illusion...

Some people look at it and see a vase while others look at it and see the sillhouettes of two people facing each other. This is just one example of how two people can see the same thing and have their minds interpret it differently. So if it can happen in this physical world, why wouldn't it happen in the dream state? It does happen in the dream state.

Originally Posted by Raven Knight

This is not correct. The human mind will automatically try to interpret and understand anything it sees. So if two people see the exact same thing they may interpret it differently. Just look at this optical illusion...

Some people look at it and see a vase while others look at it and see the sillhouettes of two people faing each other. This is just one example of how two people can see the same thing and have their minds interpret it differently. So if it can happen in this physical world, why wouldn't it happen in the dream state? It does happen in the dream state.

Well that optical illusion is kind of famous, because it's demonstrates that when the subject matter ambiguous, the mind can shift between definitions. In reality, almost everyone can see both... which is why it is so famous. I think you'd be hard pushed to find someone who couldn't see the faces. Sure different people may see different things at first.

I agree completely with your first statement, only I think it applies moreso to the fact that people can find patterns where there are none, down to the way the mind works.

It's actually funnily enough, a great demonstration as to how the human mind searches for meaning in the ambiguous... which seems to be exactly what people are doing when they try to make two different dreams match up. I see a dog, you see a cat, both obviously different, but if you are looking to find similarities your mind can generally find connections.
If i dreamt of petting a Cat and you dreamt of feeding a dog, and we were both trying to dreamshare, we may conclude that our dreams are similar enough to have been shared... when in reality, the connection was made in retrospect because we WANTED to find a pattern.

To conclude that an ambigious optical illusion demonstrates that people will have shared dreams and have different interpretations of the SAME dream, is a big strech of the imagination. It makes far more sense to conclude that people have DIFFERENT dreams, and the mind (being a a great pattern finding device) fills the gaps and makes connections where there are none, it requries far less rewriting of the laws of physics, psychology and all the rest.

I think we can all agree, that any answer that requires more unprovable steps, or leaps of faith... is a weaker answer than one that requires none.

There is a famous experiment where two groups of people are shown ink blots (in fact I think it's mentioned in one of LaBerge books) the first group are simply shown the ink blot and asked to see what they see, the other are told a story about sailing first, then shown the ink blot.
The first group, generally see all sort of unrelated images in the inkblot.
The second, generally see more nautical related images... because their minds have been already been primed to be more receptive to that kind of imagery.

If you prime your mind to find patterns, it will.
Simply choose a random word say "sky", and suddently if you decide it has meaning... it will almost magically seem to crop up everywhere.
The same thing happens with that classic psychological illusion where people start noticing the time 11:11

This is not to rule out the possibility of shared dreaming, perhaps it is possible. But if you are looking for truth, it really pays to be discerning. No one wants to draw false conclusions, and then look like a fool when someone points out a far more sensible and obvious answer.

People who make up excuses, or try to make the subject vague and beyond testing, weaken their argument. It comes across as deliberate deceit... even if it isn't. The truth has nothing to hide from asking difficult questions, it is only that which is false that needs protecting, because its foundations are weak, and it will crumble under hard questions...
Which, as an aside, is a the exact reason i find the deep dreaming forum highly dubious.

spaceexploer, what do you think about The Cusp's suggestion of attempting to wake one another up?

I definitely agree with what you've said in the above post.

For me it takes a bit more to even entertain the idea that it's not mere coincidence. The reason I do entertain the idea that dream sharing exists, is because I personally have experienced a handful of incidents that seem unlikely to be coincidental. In the "shared dreams" I was able to make specific observations about a place or an article of clothing or jewelry that it would have been impossible for me to know about previously.

If you are ambiguous and say that a gold watch in a dream might be the same as a silver watch in real life, just being perceived differently, then that (in my opinion) makes it seem exactly as what spaceexplorer was talking about. You're trying to make things fit together. A gold watch in a dream should be a gold watch in real life. If you look at things that way, then that's the only way (again, just my opinion), you're going to find any proof.

Interesting how you responded only to my method, but not the example of the dream.

A dream is not an image or a theme. It is an experience.

If you cannot see that it's nearly impossible to have so many "coincidences" in two different dreams, I give up.

I withdraw.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

spaceexploer, what do you think about The Cusp's suggestion of attempting to wake one another up?

I think that would actually be a fantastic idea.
I'm trying to think it through, just to rule out any reasons why it may have problems... not to be skeptical for the sake of it, just to give it the respect of thinking it through.
The only thought that first jumps to mind, is that upon waking, there should be a grace time, of say 5 minutes... allowing both dreamers to record their waking time, before calling each other. This could help rule out any cases where you are actually awoken by the phone ringing... and like the classic alarm clock becoming a dream siren were all familiar with, the phone ringing could, at a strech, cue a dream about the other person. Which is best avoided.

Obviously, you'd need to be able to repeat this enough times to rule out chance, and also record any occasions where you wake up thinking you've had a shared dream, but not getting the call.

Otherwise, it's a nice direct way to casually experiment. As long as people are aware enough to realise one example, is not proof in itself, like dreamqueen said, in such cases you need to gather a big enough pool of experience and evidence to avoid statistical flukes and chance occurences.

Originally Posted by Aquanina

I definitely agree with what you've said in the above post.For me it takes a bit more to even entertain the idea that it's not mere coincidence. The reason I do entertain the idea that dream sharing exists, is because I personally have experienced a handful of incidents that seem unlikely to be coincidental. In the "shared dreams" I was able to make specific observations about a place or an article of clothing or jewelry that it would have been impossible for me to know about previously.

This is the same case for me, I've had two seemingly shared dreams in my life. Both many years ago now, and unfortunatly I only have my memories, and no dream diarys of the events. They were more than enough to spark my interest, but cleary rare enough that they could also be put down to a statistical fluke.

I'm well aware of the strange nature of coincidences too, for example, my friends consider my incredibly lucky... I literally find money all the time.
The other day, whilst discussing my odd luck with a friend, he joked that maybe i had some kind of odd Karma... as a month before i'd found £100. This is not a common conversation I and this friend would have, but fueled by the odd events the month or so before.
10 Minutes after having this discussion, on my walk home, I decided to take a different route... as I walked back, I noticed a £50 note on the floor, I was gobsmacked... even more so when I picked it up and discovered it was 3 £50 notes, so £150 in total. Very odd considering the conversation we just had.

Do i consider that divine intervention, some kind of karma, or magical luck?
Not really, I just consider it to be a strange combination of chance, self programming to expect to find things (so i keep an eye out), and my own natural observant nature. I've literally developed a skill at being seemingly lucky... if you program yourself right, and are an observant individual... seeming miracles can happen to you.

Originally Posted by spaceexplorer

Well that optical illusion is kind of famous, because it's demonstrates that when the subject matter ambiguous, the mind can shift between definitions. In reality, almost everyone can see both... which is why it is so famous. I think you'd be hard pushed to find someone who couldn't see the faces. Sure different people may see different things at first.

The point I want to make is that sometimes in a dream we only see somethiing briefly. So what we see first is the only thing we see before the image is gone. The equivilant would be if we both were in a car and saw an animal run across the road. You saw a small dog; I saw a cat; in reality it was a rabbit. In reality we caught a glimpse and our minds filled in what it was. Most people aren't as aware in a dream as when awake (me included), so it would happen even more easily there. Another optical illusion: What do you see?

I know this isn't direct physical proof, but I would swear on... well anything... that I am telling events as they happened. Yes, I would swear it in a court of law. Having said that...

Nomad and another friend of mine that I know physically in person recently shared a dream. In that dream he was lucid and she was not. She didn't remember the dream. Nomad did. Since she didn't remember the dream, she asked for more information from Nomad. She asked for a more detailed description of her. And he nailed it! He didn't describe her as she physically looks in this world, but he described how she sees herself in her dream state and got even small details right such as her height, her hair length and color, and a specificly unique piece of jewelry she was wearing. She is not sure if she believes in shared dreaming, and she is officially creeped out by that. There is no way Nomad could have known these things! And I don't see how this could be faked (they never met or knew each other) or coincidence (there were too many accurate details). I don't know if you will consider this event as evidence since you didn't personally experience it, but I thought I would relate it to you.

And again, I would swear in a court of law that I did not make that up!

Raven, I definitely get what you are saying. But isn't it much more convincing when someone says "I dreamt about a black dog" and then the other person says "I also dreamt about a black dog" ...rather than, "Oh, I dreamt about a black cat. But since we both dreamt about a black animal it must have been the same thing just perceived differently."

My point is...if you actually can get extremely accurate details shared by two people, then why muddy the water with all this "different perception" stuff?

Originally Posted by Aquanina

Raven, I definitely get what you are saying. But isn't it much more convincing when someone says "I dreamt about a black dog" and then the other person says "I also dreamt about a black dog" ...rather than, "Oh, I dreamt about a black cat. But since we both dreamt about a black animal it must have been the same thing just perceived differently."

My point is...if you actually can get extremely accurate details shared by two people, then why muddy the water with all this "different perception" stuff?

Actually I would need more similarities than just a black animal to convince me of a shared dream. On the ones I accept as shared there are more similarities than that. For example in one dream I was sick and riding a horse while Nomad and some others were fighting Templars attacking us... he dreamed that I was sick and on a horse while he and some others were fighting random enemies. I saw Templars because I am obsessed with Assassin's Creed so that is how my mind interpreted it. Mostly the same with a few differences. And you are right; exact matches are much more convincing! I've experienced quite a few of those, too!