Go Ahead And Ask Me, Universal (and Others)

[Xaqaria]

As you I should have known, Universal gets to dictate the subject of discussion. You win dude. You will continue to lead the topic astray until you find ground that you are comfortable on and then when beaten on that ground you will accuse me of going off topic so, you win. You are right, I am wrong; Keeper, I return the thread to you. I've lost my stomach for these circular arguments against people claiming to know the true nature of the universe. They obviously know more than I; for I am a lowly human.

[Universal Mind]

As you I should have known, Universal gets to dictate the subject of discussion. You win dude. You will continue to lead the topic astray until you find ground that you are comfortable on and then when beaten on that ground you will accuse me of going off topic so, you win. You are right, I am wrong; I was hoping you would actually counter my major point, which is extremely relevant to the discussion we were having with Keeper about how the absolute nature of logic relates to the existence of God, instead of running away with false tangents the whole time. Too bad. I guess your absurd personal insults against me make perfectly good subsitutes.

[Keeper]

May I ask you a question: Why would God conform to Logic?

[nerve]

"God" doesn't conform to logic because logic requires time and for time to exist "God" must exist FIRST. I mean "God" as in a thing, THE thing, that MUST have existed FIRST before anything else could possibly exist. Xaqaria, just listen, always always always remain open. always listen. always hear what others have to say. the only thing that would make you LOW, is if you chose to stop trying to learn altogether. that makes you selfish and low. I, if only I, would LOVE to discuss existence with you. I would LOVE to hear what you have to say, and I'd love to share my own views with you. the only thing that can make you LOW, is closing yourself up entirely.

[Universal Mind]

May I ask you a question: Why would God conform to Logic? The idea that the laws of logic can be broken is illogical. "God" doesn't conform to logic because logic requires time and for time to exist "God" must exist FIRST. I mean "God" as in a thing, THE thing, that MUST have existed FIRST before anything else could possibly exist. I don't see it as "before". The source of our universe is timeless, and the word "before" implies time chronology. I also don't think logic requires time. "If A, then B. A, therefore B," is a timeless truth of reality and does not depend on time, for example.

[nerve]

so it's more like a never-ending loop?

[Universal Mind]

so it's more like a never-ending loop? It's more like a still picture that can't possibly not exist.

[nerve]

I think I see it. I don't see anything as being "before" or "outside of time" anymore. I see it more as one instance. 1 wasn't first, but it existed at the same instance 0 did, not before it. the 1 would have to be consciousness itself, because it would have to be aware of itself, and the 0 would have to be there at the same instance (not after) for it to be aware of itself. the 1's awareness would be like "I exist" "Nothing exists" and the alternation between the two different states of existence would be change, and the change would be time. I think that the first change was pure energy, and isn't the big bang explained as everything coming from pure energy? According to the Big Bang model, the universe developed from an extremely dense and hot state. space itself has been expanding ever since, carrying galaxies (and all other matter) with it. am I right?

[Michael]

Time is just the flow of events, it's not really a thing. It's like events in chronological order, and never ending. Everything happens in time, time was the first thing to exist, but it doesnt really exist... Don't know how to explain it. The first thing to exist was time for sure, but I think something else co-existed with it for sure. Somehow. Yea, the big bang states everything came from energy. But it came from something in space that exploded causing that energy and causing the universe to expand rapidly. So, how did that thing get there that exploded or w/e? Or how did space get there to hold that thing in?

[nerve]

that "thing" was all there was at first. there was no space yet, space came from it. edit: no, no, I get it now. space is uncertainty, or unawareness. the first consciousness was of course surrounded by uncertainty, unawareness. space is expanding, right? I think energy is constantly expanding, out into space, in every direction. consciousness is expanding out and it will never stop because space is infinite. if it weren't, there'd be no consciousness in the first place.

[nerve]

I see it like this: there is the first consciousness, it is aware that it exists and that unawareness exists. it is surrounded by unawareness (space). it had to have spread, somehow. if it didn't, there would be nothing. but it couldn't have converted ALL of space at once, because if it did, there would be nothing. so it continued, and continues, to expand, forever. space is infinite. no one can ever know everything, consciousness cannot exist without unconscioussness, but it can't exist without (forever) converting space either.

[Keeper]

I'm here again, hopefully to stay, so ... Open again for buisness