Galantamine + Choline

[dodobird]

I tried it last night as a WILD aid with success. I'm a newbie and I had just 2 WILDs before, and this WILD was much more full fledged, and I didn't lose my awareness for a second. (This is my second time of trying Galantamine + Choline. The first time was about a month ago and I failed and fell asleep, and I slept quite badly too) I took 4mg Galantamine and 500mg Choline Bitartrate about 4:30 hours after going to sleep. I then attempted to do WILD. I tried to do relaxation meditation, to stop the "voice in the head", the annoying thinking that distructs you. I was quite unsuccessful, so I gave up on relaxation after about 20 minutes and leaned on the side, and waited for HI. After about 20 minutes I heard the most horrible screeching sound as if the very fabric of reality is being torn apart, and after I endured that I entered the dream. The dream was very vivid, very clear and organized. Every once in a while I felt like I was waking up, and I didn't move so I can re-enter the dream, and I succeeded in re-entering the dream about 4 times. I don't know if it was false or real awakenings. All together the dream ( or chained dreams ) were rather long, about an hour. I was very satisfied with the dream, but for my taste this dream was too normal and neat, I prefer more bizarre dreams. In this dream I was walking around in a city. I could think very clearly, and I remembered that I wanted just to look around and observe the dream-scape. I remembered someone ( I think billybob ) suggesting to focus on textures in order to make the dream more vivid and detailed, and I looked closely at the texture on my hand, the walls etc. Side effects: 1) After waking for good from the dream, (which I decided to do because I had enough ), I was very awake, and couldn't go back to sleep ( and didn't want to go to sleep ) But that was fine because I lay there reviewing the dream for a while. 2) In the morning I fealt very slight 'heart-burn', and some hunger, which is unusual for me to feel in morning. 3) During the day ( now ) I feel more alert than usual, my sight is slightly different: kinda sprarkly and a little less focused, as if it was over-focused to a degree that you see a little less clearly. The same goes for my thoughts, they are a little too quick, in a way which makes the flow of thinking a little less continuous. It's literary feels as if each neuron in my brain is shooting too fast, and so the next neuron can't catch up fast enough to enable normal, relaxed thoughts. But these effects are quite subtle, and not a major problem. If I will feel any other side effects during the day I will update. I will now let the Galantamine clear out of my body, and may try again in about week, and report again.

[dodobird]

I add to the list of side effects that I have experienced during the day after taking these supplements is accelerated heart beat. The side effects wore off during the day and disappeared the next day. I would say that the overall after-effect is similar to an alcohol hang-over, but only the physical effects, without the mental depression that alcohol hang-over sometimes cause. I will try again in a few days the same dose, and if I succeed in the WILD again, I will try with a lower dose.

[Adrenaline Junkie]

Nice stuff, if it works for you then keep at it but don't keep taking it to the point in which you depend on the stuff, think of it as an aid to help you experiment to see what you can achieve if you put effort into it. Don't depend on these things to help you. You need to try things naturally once in a while.

[memeticverb]

Hey this sounds worth trying. Thanks for the post. I know choline is safe to take everyday, as is galantamine, but I just read on Wikipedia that its most common side effect is upset stomach, which may explain the heartburn. They are good drugs, however, and unlike what the above poster said, it would not be a bad thing for someone to be "dependent" on them since they increase brain function and memory. Its like saying its bad to become attached to bananas or vitamins... but anyone knows if they regularly take a vitamin and then stop they feel tired since their bodies are used to having more nutrients to work with...

[dodobird]

Hey this sounds worth trying. Thanks for the post. I know choline is safe to take everyday, as is galantamine, but I just read on Wikipedia that its most common side effect is upset stomach, which may explain the heartburn. They are good drugs, however, and unlike what the above poster said, it would not be a bad thing for someone to be "dependent" on them since they increase brain function and memory. Its like saying its bad to become attached to bananas or vitamins... but anyone knows if they regularly take a vitamin and then stop they feel tired since their bodies are used to having more nutrients to work with... Cholin is a normal nutrient that exists in many foods, but galantamine isn't. Some say galantamine can improve memory, but it also have a lot of side effects. Also, you can develop a tolerance to galantamine, and then it will not work as lucid aid, so I wouldn't use it too much. In any case it takes about 48 hours for galantamine to flush out of the body, so it's not a good idea to take it every day. Once in 2 or 3 days is probably safe, if once in a while you take at least a week off it, to get rid of any tolerance that may have developed. In any case I look at such supplements as way to help my progress in LD mastering. I will use the analogy of swimming: At first it's often advised to people learning to swim to use floaters. After they get the hang of the motions, they can get rid of the floaters. The problem with LD is that it's a bit of an All or Nothing ability, in this I mean that you become lucid, or you don't. I know there is the semi-lucid state, but that usually not really an intermediate step, but more like a variant. With most things that we learn, the progress is gradual, but with LD the progress is a quantum leap between non lucidity and lucidity. I think this is why it is so difficult to learn to LD. In theory, what such supplements can do is help to breach this quantum leap, help to succeed in LD even without mastering it, and if you are careful not to become dependent on the supplements, it might be used as an intermediate step.

[memeticverb]

Cholin is a normal nutrient that exists in many foods, but galantamine isn't. Some say galantamine can improve memory, but it also have a lot of side effects. Also, you can develop a tolerance to galantamine, and then it will not work as lucid aid, so I wouldn't use it too much. In any case it takes about 48 hours for galantamine to flush out of the body, so it's not a good idea to take it every day. Once in 2 or 3 days is probably safe, if once in a while you take at least a week off it, to get rid of any tolerance that may have developed. In any case I look at such supplements as way to help my progress in LD mastering. I will use the analogy of swimming: At first it's often advised to people learning to swim to use floaters. After they get the hang of the motions, they can get rid of the floaters. The problem with LD is that it's a bit of an All or Nothing ability, in this I mean that you become lucid, or you don't. I know there is the semi-lucid state, but that usually not really an intermediate step, but more like a variant. With most things that we learn, the progress is gradual, but with LD the progress is a quantum leap between non lucidity and lucidity. I think this is why it is so difficult to learn to LD. In theory, what such supplements can do is help to breach this quantum leap, help to succeed in LD even without mastering it, and if you are careful not to become dependent on the supplements, it might be used as an intermediate step. Hey could you tell me where you found that Galantamine isnt safe for every day? Ive heard that it is fine if you dont suffer from the side effects. It seems that if someone gains from supplements they should continue taking them if they are not causing side effects. With drugs, especially herbal or natural ones, if they do not harm the body, like hard drugs do, then there is no such thing as becoming dependent on them. With lucid dreaming there isnt really a way any suppliment can make someone LD. Herbs can only be indirectly causally responsible. If taking choline makes it easier, then it should every time, and to stop taking it wouldnt be good since it aids brain function and some people naturally dont produce enough of the right nutrients. Ive been taking Baopa Caapi for increased memory and have noticed improvement as well as synergistic effects with other substances. I might take it for the rest of my life

[dodobird]

Nice stuff, if it works for you then keep at it but don't keep taking it to the point in which you depend on the stuff, think of it as an aid to help you experiment to see what you can achieve if you put effort into it. Don't depend on these things to help you. You need to try things naturally once in a while. I agree.

[DreamScience]

Hi dodobird, this supplemented approach is indeed reliable. A friendly guy named Thomas Yuschak investigates supplements for lucid dreaming since a long time and made great progress. I don't know if you have your ideas from his page, but in case you do, you should tell the people. You can access his research here: http://www.advancedld.com/LDS_profiles.html or buy his book, where he describes in detail, how everyone can achieve LDs with supplements. Please don't take this as offence. Greetings, DS

[dodobird]

Hi dodobird, this supplemented approach is indeed reliable. A friendly guy named Thomas Yuschak investigates supplements for lucid dreaming since a long time and made great progress. I don't know if you have your ideas from his page, but in case you do, you should tell the people. You can access his research here: http://www.advancedld.com/LDS_profiles.html or buy his book, where he describes in detail, how everyone can achieve LDs with supplements. Please don't take this as offence. Greetings, DS Yes I read this book, and like you guessed I based this experiment on this book. I think this book is very interesting but if you make web searches on the subject of supplements and LD you will find very little information. The only apparent consensus is that B6 vitamin is useful, but even that some people believe it's just placebo. Other than that you will find only scattered information on the web, almost all of it isn't tested scientifically. This shows that this is a very new area, and everything is still in the experimental stage. Because of this I don't think anyone can truthfully claim that they really know anything for sure, and indeed throughout the book Yuschak reports what works on himself, and what may work also on others, based on his experience, experience of others that he know that have tried it, and knowledge of physiology. I think Yuschak is quite honest in his approach, and I like that. In any case, my point is that I still have no idea whether the approach works, and because of that I don't think I should give any credit to the web site, nor should I recommend anyone to try it. After I complete a lot more experimentation on the supplements suggested by this book, I intend to write a book review to this forum, but now it is way too early. All I can say for now is that this book is interesting to read, written well, concise, and got some ideas that can be tried.

[DreamScience]

What my intention was, is to tell the people that there is more research data available out there although it is not much. If anyone is interested to try it, he should have all information at hand. Personally I don't think that it is a good strategy to withhold this information. I for myself can tell you, that I had some good experiences with his approach, not that good as he describes it, but the direction is the right one. If someone is interested and can speak German, there is a big Thread here: http://37351.rapidforum.com/topic=101272358916 Greetings, DS

[dodobird]

Yea, I see what you mean, but I was not withholding information from the forum because Yuschak approach has already been mentioned on the forum at least twice, and he also posted himself, and anyway, when I write about an experiment, I don't think there is a need to everything that I ever heard about it, but instead to focus on whats relevant to the experiment report, for example I did not mention anything about the brilliantdreams pill, or the dreamamin pill, or the LaBerge patent that all suggest the same approach, nor did I explain anything about the physiological reason behind the approach. This is just a preliminary report of an experiment, which may not even work, so there is no need to supply more background information at this stage unless I am asked about it.

[dodobird]

To see the German forum page suggeted by DreamScience, you can use this link ( google translation ) http://translate.google.com/translat...language_tools It's quite funny to read the translation. DreamScience, does the GAME word in this translation supposed to be WILD?

[toolguy16]

I heard about galantamine aiding in dream recognition so i bought pills that also had choline from dreamamins.com. I read on a post somewhere about people experimenting with galantamine, and one guy said he had the best results when he woke up about 4 or 5am and took one. I stayed home from work one day and decided a mid-day nap would be great testing grounds. I took one pill a half hour before laying down. It worked extremely well, almost frighteningly. I had about a half dozen dreams, half of which were lucid and the other half non-lucid, but all were very very vivid. Also, the lucid dreams were very lucid, where i was very aware that I was indeed dreaming and had much control. The only negative point I'd like to touch on was that for the first time in my life, I found it difficult to leave the dreams and wake up. I'd open my eyes but only for a second, then fall back into the dream. this happened a few times and when i finally awoke, i was a bit rattled that I couldn't get out of the dream faster. Kinda reminded me of the movie 1408. Other than that, great dream-aid. However, similarly all other chemicals, I wouldn't take it more than once or twice a week in fear of becoming tolerant of the drug.

[Arthurium]

Well I attempted to WILD last night without real success. I ended up going to bed late, and waking up after 2 1/2 hours then staying up 30 minutes after taking 4mg Galantamine and 250mg Choline. I then attemped to WILD and eventually my body went numb and I could see through my eye lids. I would then usually start watching the lights and patterns but they would go away. After that happened I went to sleep and had dreams about taking it and WILDing which were interesting . Very interesting night but I did mess it up by going to bed too late and waking up too early. Maybe I should increase my Choline also. Ill try again on thursday and report

[unseen wombat]

It seems to be hit and miss for me. I get the best results when taking 8 mg Galantamind. A few times already taking 4 mg have resulted in absolutely nothing, even with an extra 310 mg choline pill. Sometimes when taking the 8 mg I can't get back to sleep. It seems to take like an hour for it to kick in, because even if I'm sleeping, it wakes me up after an hour. Last Sunday I tried to WILD, then fell asleep and dreamed I WILDed and succeeded. It was pretty good and realistic, but blurry. It also took me like 3 hours before I finally got lucid after taking the 8 mg Galantamind, so I think it may have pretty much worn off by that time.

[dodobird]

New article about LDS in the advancedld site: http://www.advancedld.com/f/Substanc...case_study.pdf It seems that Yuschak found new combinations that does not require Galantamine, such as this combination: 2000mg L-aspartic acid, 4000mg L-glutamine, and 300mg L-theanine.

[Phydeaux_3]

Well I've just ordered up my second order from Dreamamins. I haven't had any galantamine for quite awhile now (almost 2 months) so I'm hoping that I'll have good results right away when it arrives. For anyone who's curious about my previous results, they can be found here in my journal. I'm really looking forward to doing s'more, the last time was totally amazing. No reality checks required, I just KNEW I was dreaming when I was there, that's never happened to me before in my life. What an invigorating experience! DREAM ON!

[lucidus]

Hi Arthurium, I wasn't able to reply to your PM (maybe the settings in your profile must be changed). I usually sleep for almost 5 hours and then have a WBTB. I know there is a big REM phase at about T+5:00 hours and I want to get this one. The LDS supplements I always take just after getting up then. I stay awake (and get awake!) for about an hour. Sometimes falling back to sleep is a problem then, but since I added L-theanine to the mix, this is way more easy now. You had a good starting point at your attempt, you were already in dreamland when you could see thru your closed eyelids. Next time just try to really get comfortable in your dream body and just get up. I also think that 8 mg and 500 mg would be a more reliable dose. But you should of course experiment on your own here.

[Arthurium]

New article about LDS in the advancedld site: http://www.advancedld.com/f/Substanc...case_study.pdf It seems that Yuschak found new combinations that does not require Galantamine, such as this combination: 2000mg L-aspartic acid, 4000mg L-glutamine, and 300mg L-theanine. Some information. It seems Theanine is the active chemical in this combination. Theanine is related to glutamine, and can cross the blood-brain barrier.[1] Theanine is speculated to produce these effects by increasing the level of gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) production. Theanine increases brain serotonin, dopamine, GABA levels and has micromolar affinities for AMPA, Kainate and NMDA receptors.[5] It has also been found that injecting spontaneously hypertensive mice with theanine significantly lowered levels of 5-hydroxyindole in the brain.[6] Researchers also speculate that it may inhibit glutamic acid excitotoxicity.[5] Theanine also promotes alpha wave production in the brain.[2]

[Arthurium]

New article about LDS in the advancedld site: http://www.advancedld.com/f/Substanc...case_study.pdf It seems that Yuschak found new combinations that does not require Galantamine, such as this combination: 2000mg L-aspartic acid, 4000mg L-glutamine, and 300mg L-theanine. Being these are amino acids, and do not alter the brain chemistry by use of inhibitor like Galantamine. I think it sound safer, with less side effects (or none). Might be able to use these each day too.

[dodobird]

Being these are amino acids, and do not alter the brain chemistry by use of inhibitor like Galantamine. I think it sound safer, with less side effects (or none). Might be able to use these each day too. Yea it sounds both safer and I think that it will be easier to acquire at pharmacists. I'm looking forward to reading reports on this combination's effectiveness. I'll try this too after I'll run out of my supply of galantamine. As for daily effectiveness, I gamble that it will not work well, dew to tolerance: If your brain will get used to constant stimulation, it may become a little 'lazy', and the supplements will not be enough to raise the level of awareness to achieve lucidity. Well, once people start testing this we'll know soon enough. I suggest that if anyone try this new combination, than start with a dose lower than the one suggested, say half the dose. This is important because often people can benfit just as well, or even better with a lower dose.

[Arthurium]

Just thought you might find this interesting... If I take Galantamine + Choline, then Piracetam: I have a nice calm feeling of well being the next day. If I take Galantamine + Choline: I feel no different at all, other then a small head ache. If I take Piracetam: My brain seems to work better, but no well being.

[Arthurium]

I had my very first successful WILD last night using Galantamine + Choline. I have kept track of my other successful WILDS and non-successful ones. Here are the common details that made them happen for those that care... - I got less sleep then I needed all week.. Not for this purpose. But that explains why I was tired... - Being very tired when going to bed. - Not really feeling like waking up to WILD cause I was so tired I wanted to sleep. (Got up 5 hours after going to bed) - Then I stayed up till I was a wake and then a while later I got tired and wanted to go back to bed. (Stayed up for 1 hour.) - I took 8mg of Galantamine, and 500mg Choline - I WILD and then started counting when I felt my self going into the dream world... It was interesting cause stuff just started appearing around me. Very cool. Fun dream though... Was able to have sex without waking !

[DCDavid]

Where does everyone here get their galantamine? Everywhere I've found it it's over $60 a bottle for around 2 months supplyl, that's prety steep. Anyone ever try huperzine for improved dream recall? Both galantamine and huperzine are acetylchonisterase inhibitors and huperzine is much cheaper.

[Arthurium]

Where does everyone here get their galantamine? Everywhere I've found it it's over $60 a bottle for around 2 months supplyl, that's prety steep. Anyone ever try huperzine for improved dream recall? Both galantamine and huperzine are acetylchonisterase inhibitors and huperzine is much cheaper. I buy Galantamind, and I think its $40. As for a 2 month supply, you should not be doing this more then twice a week. It loses its effectiveness. So the bottle should last like 6-12 months.