Koran promotes justice and equality

[sourcejedi]

These gossips you guys follow were compiled 230 years after Muhammad by the Abbasid dynasty, long after the Koran. Aisha's name is not even mentioned in the Koran. It was the supposed "oral" traditions passed down orally across 5 or 6 generations. No written records are available. Its all lies and fabrications. The prophet did not leave behind him any text but the Koran, and the early Muslim did not preserve and spread any text but the Koran. That would rather avoid the issue. Can you provide a source for this approach? Not one that is a specific defense of Aishas marriage, but one which explains this model of doctrines in a general sense? I hope this doesn't sound like I'm making it harder for you than the anti-islamic loudmouth, but I can't fish out any easy keywords from the above to feed Google. I don't think I'd have much luck with "gossip" as a keyword here :-).

[Bigmo]

That would rather avoid the issue. Can you provide a source for this approach? Not one that is a specific defense of Aishas marriage, but one which explains this model of doctrines in a general sense? I hope this doesn't sound like I'm making it harder for you than the anti-islamic loudmouth, but I can't fish out any easy keywords from the above to feed Google. I don't think I'd have much luck with "gossip" as a keyword here :-). http://books.google.com/books?id=8oY...FRT04#PPA13,M1 Pages 9-15 Also: http://www.irfi.org/general/history_of_hadiths.htm There are plenty more. But as a Westener the first one maybe easier for you to understand. Of course these researchers lived before the rise of radical Islam and thus were more academical than political. Now most of them are political, like Spencer or Daniel Pipes and so on. Schacht and Goldziher were very professional and have influenced me a great deal, I must admit. There are very few non bias, academical researchers these days. Either they are anti Islam propagandist, or they are sectarian Islam apologists.

[sourcejedi]

That was very interesting, thanks. I'm not used to the level of historical analysis of the origin of religions; I wasn't fully aware of how recent (in relative terms) Islam is. It's difficult to read the book online since it's not all there :-). Can you give us a page reference for where the author starts challenging the established authenticity of the Hadiths? W.r.t www.irfi.org, it's difficult to establish the status of individual articles. Theres an email address for the author, but: the site has a disclaimer DISCLAIMER: THE IDEAS AND OPINIONS EXPRESSED IN THESE ARTICLES ARE THOSE OF THE AUTHORS ALONE, AND DO NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENT THE ISLAMIC RESEARCH FOUNDATION INTERNATIONAL, INC... IF ANYONE DISAGREES WITH ANY SPECIFIC ARTICLE, HE/SHE MAY WRITE AN ARTICLE WITH HIS/HER OPPOSING VIEW POINTS GIVING PERTINENT REFERENCES. IT IS THE BEDROCK POLICY OF IRFI TO ENCOURAGE OPPOSING POINTS OF VIEW. ARTICLES THAT SUPPORT THE GOALS OF IRFI, SUCH AS ISLAMIC RENAISSANCE, UPLIFTMENT OF THE MUSLIM UMMAH, INTERPRETATION OF THE NOBLE QUR'AN AND SUNNAH IN THE LIGHT OF MODERN KNOWLEDGE WILL BE PUBLISHED WITH THE APPROVAL OF THE EDITORIAL BOARD. Theres no obvious way to search for articles with an opposing point of view - nor any other form of organisation of these articles - and in particular, this article isn't specifically endorsed by the IRFI. ... to be continued ...

[sourcejedi]

Hmm. I see that whatever verse my primary source was using could have been misinterpreted. Given how down the Quran seems to be on hadiths, it is indeed odd how they became widely used. Personally I'd go with the article that said they have to be a trick of Satan. Correct me if I'm wrong here: Sunni muslims make up a large majority (85% ?). Both orthodox Sunnis and Shi'as consider hadiths reliable, but they differ in which specific hadiths they have judged to be reliable. (The numbers are fantastic; the book you linked to gives one judging 4,000 reliable out of 600,000!). In Sunni tradition, two of the most authentic hadiths [Bukhari (d. 870) and Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875)] quote Aisha as claiming she was given in marriage at 6 or 7 and that consummated at 9. Therefore: wannywan's last post is right *about the belief of the majority of muslims*. Either they accept it, or they are being intellectualy dishonest. It may not match historical fact. It may not be what you believe. It may not be consistent with the Quran. Majority does not make right. In time, majority Islam may revert to the position that the Quran is the only reliable account. wannywan may not offer the qualifications you would expect from a scholar of Islam. But so long as you interpret his statement as being about the belief of muslims as opposed to established history - which is how most non-muslims would take it, and which makes it no less damning for those muslims - it is correct. There's not much of a halfway house - if the hadiths are really as corrupted as you believe, anyone who uses them at all is going to get into trouble. You're setting yourself apart from the vast majority. You've shown good sources for your approach, but as yet they don't identify a popular movement (as in not purely academic, not in terms of numbers of followers) which promotes this approach. Seems to me without such a movement it's very difficult to put any qualifiers on what wannywan says, let alone discount it.

[Bigmo]

Hmm. I see that whatever verse my primary source was using could have been misinterpreted. Given how down the Quran seems to be on hadiths, it is indeed odd how they became widely used. Personally I'd go with the article that said they have to be a trick of Satan. Correct me if I'm wrong here: Sunni muslims make up a large majority (85% ?). Both orthodox Sunnis and Shi'as consider hadiths reliable, but they differ in which specific hadiths they have judged to be reliable. (The numbers are fantastic; the book you linked to gives one judging 4,000 reliable out of 600,000!). In Sunni tradition, two of the most authentic hadiths [Bukhari (d. 870) and Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875)] quote Aisha as claiming she was given in marriage at 6 or 7 and that consummated at 9. Therefore: wannywan's last post is right *about the belief of the majority of muslims*. Either they accept it, or they are being intellectualy dishonest. It may not match historical fact. It may not be what you believe. It may not be consistent with the Quran. Majority does not make right. In time, majority Islam may revert to the position that the Quran is the only reliable account. wannywan may not offer the qualifications you would expect from a scholar of Islam. But so long as you interpret his statement as being about the belief of muslims as opposed to established history - which is how most non-muslims would take it, and which makes it no less damning for those muslims - it is correct. There's not much of a halfway house - if the hadiths are really as corrupted as you believe, anyone who uses them at all is going to get into trouble. You're setting yourself apart from the vast majority. You've shown good sources for your approach, but as yet they don't identify a popular movement (as in not purely academic, not in terms of numbers of followers) which promotes this approach. Seems to me without such a movement it's very difficult to put any qualifiers on what wannywan says, let alone discount it. I have sent an attachment for you which is a small summary of the important points of Goldziher and Schacht.

[Universal Mind]

Bigmo, please explain these quotes. You keep talking about other quotes, but not these... 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (…). 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil. (…). 61.4 Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause. 4.95 (…) And those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their person, Allah hath granted a grade higher grade than to those who sit at home. (…). Those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a great reward. 4.74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah – whether he is slain of gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great value. 3.169&170 Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the Bounty provided by Allah. (…). The martyrs glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they cause to grieve. 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan (…). 4.84 Then fight in Allah's cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself – and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the unbelievers, for Allah is the strongest in might and punishment. 8.65 O Prophet! Rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty among you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers: for these are people without understanding. 9.123 O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find harshness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. 4.101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for hear the unbelievers may attack you: for the unbelievers are unto you open enemies. 3.151 Soon We shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers (…): their abode will be the Fire: and evil is the home of the wrong-doers. 8.12 Remember thy Lord inspired the Angels with the message: "(…) I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them". 8.59&60 Let not the unbelievers think they have escaped (…). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of your enemies. 17.16 When We decide to destroy a town, We command those among them who are given the good things of this life to be obedient, but they continued to transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then We destroyed them utterly. 5.33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of the hands and feet, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. (5.38 As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a retribution for their deed and exemplary punishment from Allah.) 8.67 It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until He hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world, but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: and Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. 4.74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah – whether he is slain of gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great value. 1.221 Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allure you. Nor marry your girls to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever. Unbelievers do but beckon you to the Fire.

[Bigmo]

Bigmo, please explain these quotes. You keep talking about other quotes, but not these... 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (…). Look at verse 9-13 9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil. (…). 61.4 Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause. 4.95 (…) And those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their person, Allah hath granted a grade higher grade than to those who sit at home. (…). Those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit at home by a great reward. Well either you are going to defend the prophet and the message or run away. 4.74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah – whether he is slain of gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great value. 3.169&170 Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance from their Lord. They rejoice in the Bounty provided by Allah. (…). The martyrs glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they cause to grieve. Who fights to defend the message truly God will reward. There is of course those who choose to run away or go back and join the pagans and maybe even fight with the pagans to destroy the message by killing the messenger. After all who wants to follow an outcast whose own people turned his back on him and is followed by a few losers, unless of course you have faith in what you are defending. Look where his teachings are now, and where are the pagans, in the dust bins of history. 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan (…). 4.84 Then fight in Allah's cause – thou art held responsible only for thyself – and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the unbelievers, for Allah is the strongest in might and punishment. 8.65 O Prophet! Rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty among you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred. If a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers: for these are people without understanding. So who is trying to dominate who? 9.123 O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find harshness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him. 4.101 When ye travel through the earth, there is no blame on you if ye shorten your prayers, for hear the unbelievers may attack you: for the unbelievers are unto you open enemies. 3.151 Soon We shall cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers (…): their abode will be the Fire: and evil is the home of the wrong-doers. 8.12 Remember thy Lord inspired the Angels with the message: "(…) I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them". 8.59&60 Let not the unbelievers think they have escaped (…). Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into the hearts of your enemies. 17.16 When We decide to destroy a town, We command those among them who are given the good things of this life to be obedient, but they continued to transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then We destroyed them utterly. 5.33 The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of the hands and feet, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter. Before that verse was verse 5.32. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. 5.38 As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: a retribution for their deed and exemplary punishment from Allah. The verse after it says: 5.39. But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And the Koran also say: 45.5. We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers. 8.67 It is not fitting for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war until He hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world, but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: and Allah is Exalted in might, Wise. And right after that 2 verses later it say: 70. O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands: "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." 4.74 Let those fight in the cause of Allah who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah – whether he is slain of gets victory – soon shall We give him a reward of great value. Of course they can always run away. 1.221 Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allure you. Nor marry your girls to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever. Unbelievers do but beckon you to the Fire There is nothing called class system in the Koran. Faith and conduct is what matters, a woman of faith who is a slave is better than a woman of beauty even from a noble class without faith and good conduct. Very good, its the inside that counts right? As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9 Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40 So who is oppressing who? Yes maybe later the Islamic empires did their own oppression, but that's not the prophet's concern and neither the Koran's. Every person will carry his deeds with him to his grave.

[Universal Mind]

The Koran is not all about peace.

[Bigmo]

The Koran is not all about peace. You mean the pagan Arabs and their allies were not about peace. As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9

[Universal Mind]

You mean the pagan Arabs and their allies were not about peace. As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9 The book flat out says people are enemies for being infidels and that they should be attacked for it.

[Bigmo]

The book flat out says people are enemies for being infidels and that they should be attacked for it. The Book say: 2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God, but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression 4.75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated ?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" 39:41 Assuredly, We have sent down the Book to you in right form for the good of man. Whoso guided himself by it does so to his own advantage, and whoso turns away from it does so at his own loss. You certainly are not their keeper. 42:6 48 And whoso takes for patrons others besides God, over them does God keep a watch. Mark, you are not a keeper over them. But if they turn aside from you (do not get disheartened), for We have not sent you to be a keeper over them; your task is but to preach . Even those who choose top take other dieties, the Koran says its not your job to force them or intimidate them but your job is but to preach. Thats why you were sent, as a warner and a bringer of good tidings to the believers. Unless they try to prevent you from doing your mission, either by expelling you so your message can not reach people, or kill you and your followers so the message also dies with it. You are not really understanding of the circumstances of the beginnings of the prophetic message. You look at islam today and see a vast ocean of followers. But it was not always like that. The Arab culture is a fierce tribal one that worships their forefathers and heritage. Muhammad was seen as a traitor and a heretic and a threat. Just like later after him, the Muslims adopted the old tribal mentality and started doing the same with Islam. Anyone who abandons Islam is now seen as a traitor and a heretic and must be killed. Its the same mentality that re-emerged. Islam replaced paganism and hadiths was the way for them to consolidate the Arab tribal mentality regarding freedom and women with Islam. Look at what the Koran says regarding other monothesit and other scriptures and look what the hadiths say. Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin good and forbid wrong; and they hasten in good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are God fearing. 3:113-115 And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture, those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. 3:199 Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . 2:62 Yet go ask any cleric and he will find a way to say anyone who is not following us is an infidel, and any Muslim who does not think so is an infidel himself. Read this: As for today, only Islam is valid or acceptable now that Allah has sent it to all men, for the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) has said, "By Him in whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, any person of this Community, any Jew, or any Christian who hears of me and dies without believing in what I have been sent with will be an inhabitant of hell" (al-Baghawi: Sharh al-sunna 1.104). This hadith was also reported by Muslim in his Sahih by `Abd al-Razzaq in his Musannaf, and others. It is a rigorously authenticated (sahih) evidence that clarifies the word of Allah in surat Al 'Imran "Whoever seeks a religion other than Islam will never have it accepted from him, and shall be of those who have truly failed in the next life" (Qur'an 3:85) and many other verses and hadiths. That Islam is the only remaining valid or acceptable religion is necessarily known as part of our religion, and to believe anything other than this is unbelief (kufr) that places a person outside of Islam, as Imam Nawawi notes: "Someone who does not believe that whoever follows another religion besides Islam is an unbeliever (like Christians), or doubts that such a person is an unbeliever, or considers their sect to be valid, is himself an unbeliever (kafir) even if he manifests Islam and believes in it" (Rawda al-talibin, 10.70). This is not only the position of the Shafi'i school of jurisprudence represented by Nawawi, but is also the recorded position of all three other Sunni schools: Hanafi (Ibn 'Abidin: Radd al-muhtar 3.287), Maliki (al-Dardir: al-Sharh al-saghir, 4.435), and Hanbali (al-Bahuti: Kashshaf al-qina', 6.170). Those who know fiqh literature will note that each of these works is the foremost fatwa resource in its school. The scholars of Sacred Law are unanimous about the abrogation of all other religions by Islam because it is the position of Islam itself. "Beware lest you ever say anything that does not conform to the pure Sacred Law. Know that the highest stage of the perfected ones (rijal) is the Sacred Law of Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace). And know that the esoteric that contravenes the exoteric is a fraud" (al-Burhani: al-Hall al-sadid, 32). http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/amat.htm So after all these verses they still have these views. Selective quoting of verses and rejecting others as abrogated and using hadiths to close the case. You really do not know what Muhammad went through.

[Universal Mind]

Obviously the Koran is full of contradictions.

[Bigmo]

Obviously the Koran is full of contradictions. No, its just that you are not reading the verses well. Islam is faith in God and judgement day. 22.78. And strive in His cause as ye ought to strive. He has chosen you, and has imposed no difficulties on you in religion; it is the cult of your father Abraham. It is He Who has named you Muslims, both before and in this (Revelation); that the Messenger may be a witness for you, and ye be witnesses for mankind! So establish regular Prayer, give regular Charity, and hold fast to God. He is your Protector - the Best to protect and the Best to help! So Islam is the religion of Abraham. Sunnis believe regular prayer is the 5 rituals and believe this is Islam and nothing else. There is nothing about 5 ritual prayers in the Koran. Sunni believe charity is zakat which they say is 2.5per cent of a person's wealth to be payed annualy, there is nothing about that in the Koran. So these are the things that make them unable to accept any other belief. Its a dogma with rules and established rituals and theological concepts for them. The Koran looks at faith and deeds. They understand Islam through hadiths, I can not emphasize this too much. Its nearly impossible to understand Sunnism without understanding the role hadiths play. Hadith not only explains the koran for them it also abrogates the Koran. Its just like the Rabbis and the Talmud.

[Universal Mind]

How many times do I need to post quotes that say to attack infidels/nonbelievers? You keep dodging that issue. You keep posting other quotes as if they undo those quotes. They don't undo them. They just contradict them. The Koran encourages violence against "infidels". Showing where it also discourages it does not change that.

[sourcejedi]

Correct me if I'm wrong here: Sunni muslims make up a large majority (85% ?). Both orthodox Sunnis and Shi'as consider hadiths reliable, but they differ in which specific hadiths they have judged to be reliable. (The numbers are fantastic; the book you linked to gives one judging 4,000 reliable out of 600,000!). In Sunni tradition, two of the most authentic hadiths [Bukhari (d. 870) and Muslim b. al-Hajjaj (d. 875)] quote Aisha as claiming she was given in marriage at 6 or 7 and that consummated at 9. Therefore: wannywan's last post is right *about the belief of the majority of muslims*. Either they accept it, or they are being intellectualy dishonest. In the absence of a correction then, I assume I can go happily to my atheist hell? It would be a great succour as I lie on the flames, to have known one of the True Faith. One aware that most others who claim to share his faith have fallen for heinous lies. That they not only condone fantasies, arranged marriage and rape of children, but believe they were endorsed by their Prophet and the example of his perfect life. As they burn beside me, I shall think of you and wonder why they did not heed your warning as you shouted it from the rooftops. Perhaps you needed to speak more clearly and select more appropriate rooftops. I'll entertain myself though the eternal suffering by considering the most ironic way to interpret the phrase "preaching to the converted". Go with god.

[Bigmo]

How many times do I need to post quotes that say to attack infidels/nonbelievers? You keep dodging that issue. You keep posting other quotes as if they undo those quotes. They don't undo them. They just contradict them. The Koran encourages violence against "infidels". Showing where it also discourages it does not change that. Hmm, maybe you wished Muhammad was killed and there would be no Islam today. I am sorry you feel that way. These verses about God punishing unbelievers is what is really bothering you. But there is nothing me or any other human can do about it. I was only pointimg out the prophet's role in this life. Neither him or any other creature has any authority on judgement day except what God gives them. 19.87. None shall have the power of intercession, but such a one as has received permission from The Most Gracious. 20.109. On that Day shall no intercession avail except for those for whom permission has been granted by The Most Gracious and whose word is acceptable to Him. 10.3. Verily your Lord is God, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is God your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition?

[Universal Mind]

You forgot to say, "Excuse me while I change the subject." Nice dodge any way. My point stands.

[Bigmo]

You forgot to say, "Excuse me while I change the subject." Nice dodge any way. My point stands. Its not changing the subject its a realization that your mind is set up. It doesn't matter what the koran is saying or not saying, your mind is made up.

[Universal Mind]

Its not changing the subject its a realization that your mind is set up. It doesn't matter what the koran is saying or not saying, your mind is made up. I have an opinion, but I have practically begged you to tell me how what I have said is false. You have yet to even attempt that. All you do is dodge. If my mind is going to be changed, it is not going to result from your dodging. It appears to me that the specific quotes I have asked you about something like ten times now flat out very clearly say to wage war on people for being infidels. If that is false, you should explain how it is false. Talking about quotes other than the ones I am talking about has no hope of accomplishing that. Insulting me personally because of my view of the situation has no hope of accomplishing it. You are going to have to tell me specifically where I am wrong on exactly what I am talking about for me to change my mind. You won't do that. Your evasiveness makes it look like you agree with me.

[three and four]

to Universal Mind!

[Universal Mind]

to Universal Mind! Well, I couldn't have done it without the quotes you found.

[Bigmo]

Well, I couldn't have done it without the quotes you found. Whats the point? I have done that already. I am not concerned aboutr changing your opinion but you just want to take verses out of context and ignore the other ones. The Koran must be taken as whole. 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. 16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message . 6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them. So how can you say its says fight the infidels? 88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe So why should he then fight the infidels? Unless of course the infidels were fighting him. 2.190-192. Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors, And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith, But if they cease, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. Cease what? Being infidels or fighting you? Then it say: 2.193. And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression. Is it because they are infidels or because they are oppressing the prophet and his followers? 2.194. The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves. Is it because they are infidels? Permission (to fight) is given to those against whom war is being wrongfully waged, and verily, God has indeed the power to aid them. Those who have been driven from their homelands in defiance of right for no other reason than their saying, ‘Our Lord is God.’ 22:39-40 Permission is given because they are infidels? 24.54. Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger. but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). So if they turned away, does it say then go fight them? 88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. Did it say you must fight them until they believe? All you bring is verses about hell. Obviously you take that personal, whats the prophet has to do with this. Maybe you think he wrote and now you're pissed off at him. You bring verses like this: 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan (…). Yet you do not bring the verse before it: 4.75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" This is deliberately trying to take things out of context to prove your point. 8.12 Remember thy Lord inspired the Angels with the message: "(…) I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them". But you fail to bring the verse after it?: 8.13. This because they contended against God and His Messenger. If any contend against God and His Messenger, God is strict in punishment. Is it because they are infidels? You bring verses like: 9.123. O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that God is with those who fear Him. Yet just a few verses after it say: 128. Now hath come unto you an Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers is he most kind and merciful. 129. But if they turn away, Say: "(God) sufficeth me: there is no god but He: On Him is my trust,- He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!" Did it say fight them because they are infidels? There is a difference between fighting people who fought who happened to be infidels who despised your preaching and wanted you dead, and between fighting people because they are infidels.

[Universal Mind]

Oh, you found supposed justifications for the violence. You found quotes that say why infidels suck. Yet my point stands. All you did was show more detail of what it is about infidels that makes it where they should be attacked for being infidels. Yet you do not bring the verse before it: 4.75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" So the attacking of infidels is encouraged, but that's okay because infidels are automatically oppressors? The quotes I am talking about do not say, "Attack infidels in the specific cases of infidels who are oppressors." They say to attack infidels. But you fail to bring the verse after it?: 8.13. This because they contended against God and His Messenger. If any contend against God and His Messenger, God is strict in punishment. So there we go. Infidels should be attacked because infidels contend against God and his messenger. You found the excuse. Congratulations.

[Bigmo]

Oh, you found supposed justifications for the violence. You found quotes that say why infidels suck. Yet my point stands. All you did was show more detail of what it is about infidels that makes it where they should be attacked for being infidels. So the attacking of infidels is encouraged, but that's okay because infidels are automatically oppressors? The quotes I am talking about do not say, "Attack infidels in the specific cases of infidels who are oppressors." They say to attack infidels. So there we go. Infidels should be attacked because infidels contend against God and his messenger. You found the excuse. Congratulations. There are many instances where the Koran talks about infidels: 10.99-100. If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe! No soul can believe, except by the will of God, and He will place doubt (or obscurity) on those who will not understand Koran tells the prophet the infidels will be infidels, nothing about fighting them 28.55-56 And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant," It is true thou wilt not be able to guide whom thou lovest; but God guides those whom He will and He knows best those who receive guidance. Here the Koran again is talking about infidels and tells the pro[het to say to them "you have your deeds, I have mine". Nothing about fighting them because they are infidels 109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine. Once again the Koran tells the prophet say to the infidels you would not worship what i worship and I will not worship what your worship. You have your religion I have mine. Nothing about fighting infidels because they are infidels. 74.11-17 Leave Me with whom I created alone!, To whom I granted resources in abundance, And sons to be by his side, To whom I made (life) smooth and comfortable, Yet is he greedy-that I should add (yet more);- By no means! For to Our Signs he has been refractory!, Soon will I visit him with a mount of calamities! Here the Koran tells the prophet leave me and that infidel I created. Nothing about fight that infidel. God created that infidel and gave him a choice as to what he believes. Why should the prophet then change that right? You only bring out verses where the battle is already taking place with some of the infidels and then you want to picture that as a command to fight the infidels. Yet you fail to look at why the battles are taking place. Why are they taking place is because the infidels did not look at the matter that way, at least some of them didn't. They decided to shut this man up who was denouncing their gods: As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9 9.13. Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is God Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe! Thats why they fought those infidels, not because those infidels did not want to believe in the Koranic message. Once again: 16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message 88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. Thats what the Koran tells the prophet to do with the infidels. Invite (all humankind) to the path of your Lord with wisdom and goodly exhortation and argue with them in the most kindly manner, for, indeed, your Lord knows best as to who strays from His path, and best who are the right-guided. (16:125) Islam is peace!

[Universal Mind]

All of those quotes were about that situation? I posted a long list, and they talked about infidels and nonbelievers. Why weren't they referred to as "the particular enemies in this war" or something? The statements were much more general against nonbelievers than that.