Koran promotes justice and equality

[three and four]

Dear Bigmo, Three main points: 1. Since you claim that the Koran is the source of all equality and justice, please provide us with clear and unambiguous quotes which tell us the following: a. That freedom of speech is absolutely guaranteed, even if it means criticism or satire of the Koran and Mohammed himself. b. That women are guaranteed exactly the same rights as men and will suffer no discrimination whatsoever, be it in matters of justice, rights, employment and opportunities. c. That homosexuals will in no way be discriminated against or persecuted, but allowed to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedrooms, as long as all are adult and consenting. d. That non-believers (be they Christian, Jewish, atheists, or whatever other non-Muslim group) are just as respectable as believers, that they should be treated in all matters as the equals of believers and granted every single privilege which the Koran grants believers, and that they have just as fair a chance of entering “paradise” (that place where you claim that virgins await the good...). Once again, in order to be convincing, your quotes have to be clear, unambiguous and directly related to the subject matter. Simply chanting “Koran is peace” like a parrot will not be enough. 2. Do you know who John Lennon was? He wrote a song called “Imagine”, I recommend you listen to it as it is very beautiful. Here is a quote from it: “Imagine no religion. No hell below us, above us only sky”. I wonder if you are capable, as an intellectual exercise, to imagine what it might indeed be like to be able to think freely, without a book telling you what to believe. Might you be very afraid of doing this? (It’s of course easier to just accept what others (or a book) tells you than to really think for yourself. Can you try? If not now, perhaps at a later stage in your live. (Please don’t answer this with a Koran quote). 3. In a different thread you said you didn’t know what a DC is. Well, a DC is a Dream Character: someone you can meet in your dreams. I have another question for you, please answer it (don’t worry, this one is a little bit easier): what is an LD?

[Bigmo]

Dear Bigmo, Three main points: 1. Since you claim that the Koran is the source of all equality and justice, please provide us with clear and unambiguous quotes which tell us the following: a. That freedom of speech is absolutely guaranteed, even if it means criticism or satire of the Koran and Mohammed himself. b. That women are guaranteed exactly the same rights as men and will suffer no discrimination whatsoever, be it in matters of justice, rights, employment and opportunities. c. That homosexuals will in no way be discriminated against or persecuted, but allowed to do whatever they want in the privacy of their own bedrooms, as long as all are adult and consenting. d. That non-believers (be they Christian, Jewish, atheists, or whatever other non-Muslim group) are just as respectable as believers, that they should be treated in all matters as the equals of believers and granted every single privilege which the Koran grants believers, and that they have just as fair a chance of entering “paradise” (that place where you claim that virgins await the good...). Once again, in order to be convincing, your quotes have to be clear, unambiguous and directly related to the subject matter. Simply chanting “Koran is peace” like a parrot will not be enough. 2. Do you know who John Lennon was? He wrote a song called “Imagine”, I recommend you listen to it as it is very beautiful. Here is a quote from it: “Imagine no religion. No hell below us, above us only sky”. I wonder if you are capable, as an intellectual exercise, to imagine what it might indeed be like to be able to think freely, without a book telling you what to believe. Might you be very afraid of doing this? (It’s of course easier to just accept what others (or a book) tells you than to really think for yourself. Can you try? If not now, perhaps at a later stage in your live. (Please don’t answer this with a Koran quote). 3. In a different thread you said you didn’t know what a DC is. Well, a DC is a Dream Character: someone you can meet in your dreams. I have another question for you, please answer it (don’t worry, this one is a little bit easier): what is an LD? Well as far as the Koran is concerned: 1a-no problem 1b-no problem in religious issues, she prays the same and fast the same as men. Same judgement day same process and same paradise or hell. As far as employment and so on these are human issues not God issues. We run societies not God. 1c-no problem with that one. Only messing with other people's wife or husband is an issue. Homosexuality is a sin however but its between a man and God 1d- Thats certainly not possible since God creates and you owe your existence to Him. In Earth yes everyone has equal right as God created them equally. But the hereafter is another matter. But God promised everyone will be shown his book of deeds. Humans have no control or authority over this matter. 2a-John Lennon was a hoax. He can say that cause he is a musician. You don't know what he is really like, all you know is his songs. He is not a philosopher and his own country now is both in Iraq and Afghanistan. 3-it means a dream where you are fully conscious and aware. I don't remember most of my dreams and when I do its not funny or pretty. But its not nightmares. Can I meet a hot babe in my private pool in my mansion?

[pj]

3-it means a dream where you are fully conscious and aware. I don't remember most of my dreams and when I do its not funny or pretty. But its not I have a question for you. Why are you here? What are the specific reasons you chose our forum to settle into? Your quotes and interpretations of Islam make it sound most pleasant. What we see in the embodiment of Sharia, however, does not agree at all with your very liberal interpretations of the Koran. Islam's bloody borders do not agree at all with the rather ridiculous notion that Islam is a "religion of peace." One problem I see is that you are trying to discuss Islam as a religion, when it is really much more than that. Islam is also a legal system and a social system. Islam speaks loudly for herself, even in her silence when "radical elements" routinely commit acts that civilized society can only view as atrocities, whether the acts take the form of stoning of female rape victims or the proud "Mother of the Jihad" admonishing yet another of her young sons not to come back alive or the publishing of video of a live beheading. If this attempt to "sell" Islam wasn't so pathetic, it would be laughable. Sadly, the package that you are trying to sell us is anything but humorous - it is the wholesale abandonment and destruction of all that Western civilization has ever held dear... specifically the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. While we haven't done a very good job at all of protecting those rights, we still at least pay them some regard. Islam clearly does not, as demonstrated not through her words, but through her actions and attitudes.

[Bigmo]

I have a question for you. Why are you here? What are the specific reasons you chose our forum to settle into? Your quotes and interpretations of Islam make it sound most pleasant. What we see in the embodiment of Sharia, however, does not agree at all with your very liberal interpretations of the Koran. Islam's bloody borders do not agree at all with the rather ridiculous notion that Islam is a "religion of peace." One problem I see is that you are trying to discuss Islam as a religion, when it is really much more than that. Islam is also a legal system and a social system. Islam speaks loudly for herself, even in her silence when "radical elements" routinely commit acts that civilized society can only view as atrocities, whether the acts take the form of stoning of female rape victims or the proud "Mother of the Jihad" admonishing yet another of her young sons not to come back alive or the publishing of video of a live beheading. If this attempt to "sell" Islam wasn't so pathetic, it would be laughable. Sadly, the package that you are trying to sell us is anything but humorous - it is the wholesale abandonment and destruction of all that Western civilization has ever held dear... specifically the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. While we haven't done a very good job at all of protecting those rights, we still at least pay them some regard. Islam clearly does not, as demonstrated not through her words, but through her actions and attitudes. I don't think I am being pathetic. I think some of you only believe Western civilazion is appreciable and was the inventor of freedom and could not stomach, in some cases believe, that 1,450 years ago in beduin Arabia, this matter was settled. Islam is the Koran, nothing more and nothing less. If the Muslims went astray then ask yourself who was their influence? And why they had to find an alternative "oral" tradition to justify that? Cause the Koran didn't, thats why. Only the Koran speaks for Islam. Sorry if i blew your bubble. Islam is peace!

[three and four]

Bigmo, I asked you for QUOTES from the Koran in answer to my points above, not just for you to say "oh, that's fine by Islam". So, please, where are the quotes that answer my previous post?

[pj]

Sorry if i blew your bubble. Islam is peace! Pathetic, indeed. Nice job of ignoring my question and then following up by blowing off the rest of my observations... or is it that you can't answer until you get some help? The reason is unimportant. You are here speaking for Islam - and what you are speaking is evasion, deception, indecision and an inability to accomplish what you were sent here to do. And that's really a shame, as this is a place where a good intelligent discussion is truly relished. Ah well.

[three and four]

Interesting that you should call John Lennon a hoax. Some people consider him something of a prophet! (although I’d say that that is going a bit far). There were three other guys from Liverpool with whom he wrote some pretty good music – have you heard of them? Were they all “a hoax”? If so in what way? (Funny, because their music seems pretty real to me...). Another interesting thing is that I consider Islam (and indeed all organized religions) a hoax. I also consider Mohammed a hoax. Now, one big difference between Muslim nations and where I live is that I can say this openly without being sentenced to death. Why do you think this is? (And I’d say you don’t have to worry about anybody putting a jihad on you for having called Lennon a hoax...). If Islam is peace why would I risk being killed in a Muslim country for saying Mohammed is a hoax? Oh, and I’m still waiting for your QUOTES from the Koran about equal rights for women, freedom of speech, tolerance for homosexuals, etc.

[Bigmo]

Interesting that you should call John Lennon a hoax. Some people consider him something of a prophet! (although I’d say that that is going a bit far). There were three other guys from Liverpool with whom he wrote some pretty good music – have you heard of them? Were they all “a hoax”? If so in what way? (Funny, because their music seems pretty real to me...). Another interesting thing is that I consider Islam (and indeed all organized religions) a hoax. I also consider Mohammed a hoax. Now, one big difference between Muslim nations and where I live is that I can say this openly without being sentenced to death. Why do you think this is? (And I’d say you don’t have to worry about anybody putting a jihad on you for having called Lennon a hoax...). If Islam is peace why would I risk being killed in a Muslim country for saying Mohammed is a hoax? Oh, and I’m still waiting for your QUOTES from the Koran about equal rights for women, freedom of speech, tolerance for homosexuals, etc. I am not here to preach, its just that i keep getting challenged over and over again that I am always forced to respond to criticism. Most of these countries you mention would persecute you harsher if you insulted the president that the prophet. Its not about religion, its about military dictatorships. There are countries in the Muslim world that have freedoms. There are also many countries that are not Muslims that do not. Not long ago America and the West did not have these freedoms and many of its citizens were deprived of that. Their history tells us people like you were burned alive. So what, are you going to judge your countries in the past 40 years with the Muslim world in the past 1,250 years? Its juts one issue after another. I have presented many verses here and responded to many criticism and how many of you take Koranic verses out of context and what the Koran commanded the prophet. Just because you do not believe in his prophecy it does not mean it has to be bad and evil. Just because your country men are not following it does not means its barbaric. As a Koranist my intention was to inform many here what the Koran is saying. I do not follow Sunni or Shia Islam so I do not care about what Muslim politics is like. Sunni Islam gives authroity to the rulers and the dicators like them and supports them and they in turn issue fatwas for his behalf and interest. What does this has to do with the Koran. But then it turns political and in some cases personal. The Islamic empires favored Sunni islam and in many ways helped in their emergence. In the past 40 years they made a strong resurgence and now dominate some muslim countries. The Al Saud helped the Sunni Wahhabis also. They left the desert and live in palaces. The British helped them and now America protects them and does big business and would nuke anyone who trie to depose them. So what are you blaming the Koran? Did the people choose the Abbasids or othomans or the Al Sauds. Whose allied with them, me or your governments? The Koran gives absolute freedom unparalleled in recorded human history. Thats a fact. So long as they don't try to kill him, the Koran gave Muhammad no authority but to preach. Yet some of you here still do not find that enough. 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. 16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message . 6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them. 4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." 88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. 67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner." 109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine. As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9 The pagans decided to fight and kill him. Battles were fought and many Koranic verses are about those battles. But Muhammad did not fight them because he was rejected and wanted to conquer and plunder. They fought him and expelled him from Mecca. Then fought him while him and folowers fled to Madina. 2.214. Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of God." Ah! Verily, the help of God is near! 4.75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated ?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

[pj]

I am not here to preach, its just that i keep getting challenged over and over again that I am always forced to respond to criticism. Oh really? Then why did you pop in here out of the blue, bypass the forums that are the whole purpose of Dream Views, head straight for the Spirituality forum and start two threads preaching about Islam? And why have you done exactly the same thing on so many other forums? It is a most interesting way to avoid having to respond to challenges and criticism. One could extend your actions here as an analogy to the Islamic world in general, but I'll leave that for homework.

[three and four]

To counter the assertion that mocking the prophet in Muslim countries will get you killed, you say that mocking the President in those countries will also get you killed. Fine, that just means that Muslim countries are just twice as intolerant, and in no way gets Islam off the hook. You have failed to provide quotes supporting your claim that the Koran promotes equality for women, full respect for non-believers, free speech, and decent treatment of homosexuals. You have failed because your claim is baseless: the Koran does NOT give equal rights to women, does NOT support free speech, and does NOT give full respect to non-believers or to homosexuals. Unlike you, in support of what I am saying, I will provide quotes from the Koran (which you will no doubt claim are taken out of context or badly translated): I’ll start with the category I’m in myself: someone who does not believe in either Allah or Mohammed’s divine status: 76.4 For those who reject (Allah), We have prepared Chains, Yokes, and a Blazing Fire 24.57 Never think that the infidels can escape: in the earth their abode is the fire – and it is indeed an evil refuge. 8.50 If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the unbelievers at death, how they smite their faces and their backs, saying: "Taste the chastisement of the blazing Fire". Women are to be treated equally? I don’t think so: 4.11 Allah thus directs you as regards your children's inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of two females. So in matters of inheritance, women get half what a man gets. There is also a bit somewhere (but I can’t find it right now) where it takes two female witnesses to contradict a male statement. This is not equality. 1.221 Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allure you. Nor marry your girls to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever. Unbelievers do but beckon you to the Fire. Oh, surprise, the Koran talks about slavery without condemning it! You’d think that the creator of the universe would have figured out that slavery was wrong long before Louisiana did, wouldn’t you? 4.3 (…) marry women of your choice, two, three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one. So the man gets to choose who he wants to marry – no mention of the woman have much to say about it. He can have four wives. How is this fair to women? Oh, here’s an interesting fact: Mohammed had far more than four wives (something like a dozen, I think), it seems he got special dispensation (how convenient). Interestingly, he married his favorite one, called Aisha, when she was... nine years old! There’s a word for adults who practice their lusts on children, do you know what it is? Homosexuality is, predictably, not allowed: 7.81 For ye who practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. One can presume that this verse (as indeed the whole Koran) is addressed to men, or this last verse would make no sense. In what way is that a demonstration of equality? As far as politics are concerned, I make no claim that the West has a perfect set of foreign policies, far from it. There are quite a few of these policies that I disagree with, in fact. I am however free to criticize them, and maybe (if enough people agree with me) change them. You, on the other hand, in claiming Islam is the perfect system, unalterable as dictated by some magical creator of the universe, do not have this freedom to change your system, and have therefore locked yourself into a mentality better suited to the Dark Ages. As far as free speech is concerned, well, I don’t have any quotes. You know why? Because there IS not guarantee of free speech in the Koran. (The goodness we have good old man-made Constitution for that). So there it is. Islam is NOT a source of equality, quite the contrary. I don’t know about you, Bigmo, has your mind been so conditioned that you actually believe the mantras about peace and equality that you chant? Islam is not just a religion, it is a totalitarian political system that aims at taking over minds and brainwashing them. You, Bigmo, are a fine example of what such a system can produce.

[dodobird]

I am not here to preach, its just that i keep getting challenged over and over again that I am always forced to respond to criticism. Most of these countries you mention would persecute you harsher if you insulted the president that the prophet. Its not about religion, its about military dictatorships. There are countries in the Muslim world that have freedoms. There are also many countries that are not Muslims that do not. Not long ago America and the West did not have these freedoms and many of its citizens were deprived of that. Their history tells us people like you were burned alive. So what, are you going to judge your countries in the past 40 years with the Muslim world in the past 1,250 years? Its juts one issue after another. I have presented many verses here and responded to many criticism and how many of you take Koranic verses out of context and what the Koran commanded the prophet. Just because you do not believe in his prophecy it does not mean it has to be bad and evil. Just because your country men are not following it does not means its barbaric. As a Koranist my intention was to inform many here what the Koran is saying. I do not follow Sunni or Shia Islam so I do not care about what Muslim politics is like. Sunni Islam gives authroity to the rulers and the dicators like them and supports them and they in turn issue fatwas for his behalf and interest. What does this has to do with the Koran. But then it turns political and in some cases personal. The Islamic empires favored Sunni islam and in many ways helped in their emergence. In the past 40 years they made a strong resurgence and now dominate some muslim countries. The Al Saud helped the Sunni Wahhabis also. They left the desert and live in palaces. The British helped them and now America protects them and does big business and would nuke anyone who trie to depose them. So what are you blaming the Koran? Did the people choose the Abbasids or othomans or the Al Sauds. Whose allied with them, me or your governments? The Koran gives absolute freedom unparalleled in recorded human history. Thats a fact. So long as they don't try to kill him, the Koran gave Muhammad no authority but to preach. Yet some of you here still do not find that enough. 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion, for the right way is clearly from the wrong way. Whoever therefore rejects the forces of evil and believes in God, he has taken hold of a support most unfailing, which shall never give way, for God is All Hearing and Knowing. 16:82 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message . 6:107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them. 4:79-80 Say:'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." 88:21 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. 67:25 26 And they ask, "When shall the promise be fulfilled if you speak the Truth?" Say, "The knowledge of it is verily with God alone, and verily I am but a plain warner." 109.1-6 Say : O ye that reject Faith,! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship, To you be your Way, and to me mine. As for such who do not fight you on account of faith, or drive you forth from your homelands, God does not forbid you to show them kindness and to deal with them with equity, for God loves those who act equitably. God only forbids you to turn in friendship towards such as fight against you because of faith and drive you forth from your homelands or aid in driving you forth. As for those from among you who turn towards them for alliance, it is they who are wrongdoers. 60:8-9 The pagans decided to fight and kill him. Battles were fought and many Koranic verses are about those battles. But Muhammad did not fight them because he was rejected and wanted to conquer and plunder. They fought him and expelled him from Mecca. Then fought him while him and folowers fled to Madina. 2.214. Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of God." Ah! Verily, the help of God is near! 4.75. And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated ?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" Thank you Bigmo, that some interesting quotes. I am ignorant on the Koran and this little bit of information is a nice start. My own personal experience with Muslim people was a positive one, they seemed nice , tolerant, and sincere.

[pj]

Teach this triple truth to all: A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things which renew humanity. - Buddha (from your sig.) You might want to learn for yourself what Islam is doing to peaceful Buddhists. I'll leave that, too, as homework.

[dodobird]

three and four, you do not convince me with these quotes that the Koran is bad. Is that the worse things you can find? 76.4 For those who reject (Allah), We have prepared Chains, Yokes, and a Blazing Fire 24.57 Never think that the infidels can escape: in the earth their abode is the fire – and it is indeed an evil refuge. 8.50 If thou couldst see, when the angels take the souls of the unbelievers at death, how they smite their faces and their backs, saying: "Taste the chastisement of the blazing Fire". All of these are obviously about "hell", or divine retribution, NOT about punishment by humans. 4.11 Allah thus directs you as regards your children's inheritance: to the male, a portion equal to that of two females. That not so nice, true. but in comparison with the horrors of the Bible, this is not even worth mentioning. 1.221 Do not marry unbelieving women until they believe: a slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allure you. Nor marry your girls to unbelievers until they believe: a man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever. Unbelievers do but beckon you to the Fire. Oh, surprise, the Koran talks about slavery without condemning it! You’d think that the creator of the universe would have figured out that slavery was wrong long before Louisiana did, wouldn’t you? Complete nonsense, this quote does not condone slavery in any way what so ever. 4.3 (…) marry women of your choice, two, three, or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with them, then only one. I see nothing wrong morally about this quote. Oh, here’s an interesting fact: Mohammed had far more than four wives (something like a dozen, I think), it seems he got special dispensation (how convenient). Interestingly, he married his favorite one, called Aisha, when she was... nine years old! There’s a word for adults who practice their lusts on children, do you know what it is? But that does not mean that he had sex with her, just that he married her. In any case, show a quote saying that he has sex with a 9 years old, or your argument is invalid. 7.81 For ye who practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. This just means that it's a sin, not that humans should mistreat gays. To sum it up, you only immoral argument is the one where women get half the inheritance. While this is not nice, if this is the worse you can find in the Koran, you don't have a real case.

[dodobird]

(from your sig.) You might want to learn for yourself what Islam is doing to peaceful Buddhists. I'll leave that, too, as homework. pj, Bigmo does not defend the acts of extreme Muslims, all he is saying is that the original message of the Koran is peaceful.

[Universal Mind]

Bigmo, I still want to know why all of those quotes promoting violence against "infidels" and "nonbelievers", the specific ones I keep asking about, did not use the term "individuals attacking you" instead. Were all of those quotes in the context of being under physical attack in a battle? Why did they use blanket terms that also apply to people who are on the other side of the world and not even thinking about Islam? 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil. (…). That is pretty blanketly stated. People who are not Muslims fight in the cause of evil. That's not a very peaceful and tolerant view. 9.29 Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth (…). That does not merely say to fight those who are attacking you. It says to fight those who do not believe in Allah nor the Last Day. That is a message of violence against people for not being Muslims. 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. (…). Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth. Dodobird, it looks like the Koran does not smile on you and your fellow Jews too much. 4.76 Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith fight in the cause of Evil: so fight ye against the friends of Satan (…). That does not exactly say, "Defend yourself when physically attacked by some individuals who happen to be categorized in a much larger group of people who happen to not be Muslims." It says to attack people for not being Muslims.

[three and four]

Hi Dodobird, If you would like to read more quotes I selected from the Koran, which perhaps give more of an idea about just how much abject violence it contains, please look at this (post no. 23). http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=38495 About the Old Testament being full of violence, I of course agree. However, is one murderer excused because others have also murdered? You might even try reading the whole Koran and really make up your own mind. Or take a trip to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Afghanistan. If you are gay, Jewish or an Atheist (or all three) I would however highly advise keeping your ideas to yourself during the trip.

[Universal Mind]

If you are gay, Jewish or an Atheist (or all three) I would however highly advise keeping your ideas to yourself during the trip. And I would add that you should do everything you can to make sure you keep it a secret that you live in Israel.

[three and four]

Bigmo, when I finished reading all 600 pages of my copy of the Koran it suddenly struck me that I wasn't sure that I had read the word "love" one single time. However, I was not prepared to read the whole book again to find out. Words such as "punishment", "wrath", "fire", and "power" (which are pretty cool if you're playing Rome, Total War) show up pretty much every page, but love? Where is love? (Oh, another of my favourite songs by that there hoax guy you don't like is called "all you need is love" (or by him and another dude called Paul) - you should check it out). So, here is my kind request to you, Bigmo. Please indicate to all of us here where all the quotes containing the world "love" are in the Koran.

[dodobird]

Hi Dodobird, If you would like to read more quotes I selected from the Koran, which perhaps give more of an idea about just how much abject violence it contains, please look at this (post no. 23). http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=38495 About the Old Testament being full of violence, I of course agree. However, is one murderer excused because others have also murdered? You might even try reading the whole Koran and really make up your own mind. Or take a trip to Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, or Afghanistan. If you are gay, Jewish or an Atheist (or all three) I would however highly advise keeping your ideas to yourself during the trip. Thanks for the link I will look it up. Unfortunatly I can't enter Saudi Arabia and Pakistan with an Israeli passport, but maybe I can enter Afghanistan under the new rule, though I don't think thats a very good idea.

[three and four]

What's the matter, Bigmo - having trouble finding "love"? Don't worry, most of the planet is looking for it, and it can be quite an elusive quest. But please do let us know if you make any progress.

[Bigmo]

What's the matter, Bigmo - having trouble finding "love"? Don't worry, most of the planet is looking for it, and it can be quite an elusive quest. But please do let us know if you make any progress. Say: ?If you do love God follow me, God will love you and forgive your sins for God is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful.) Qur'an 3:31 Surely those who believe and do righteous deeds, to them will God Most Gracious bestow His Love. 19:96 Truly God loves those who turn into him in repentance 2:222 And God loves the patient. (Quran: 3:146) Certainly, God loves those who put their trust in Him. 3:159 "Verily, then God loves those who are pious." 3.76 Truly, God loves the doers of good. 2:195 And God loves those who make themselves clean and pure 9.108 God is good!

[Universal Mind]

So it says a few sentences about God's love, while it says a ton about God's wrath, but does it encourage people to love? And I am still waiting for your reply to my most recent analyses of those quotes that encourage violence against nonbelievers. I am talking about what I said in post #65. What say you?

[three and four]

Stop, in the name of love! All you need is love! Love lifts you up where you belong! I was made for loving you, baby! She loves you yeah yeah yeah! The power of love! Pop is good! Oh, and here is one you forgot: 61.4 Truly Allah loves those who fight in His cause Ok, well done, you found the word love in the Koran. You WILL have to admit, however, that you sort of lifted one or two of your quotes out of context (something you religious nuts always accuse us rational people of). Here are two examples: 2.222 They ask thee concerning women’s courses. Say: They are a hurt and a pollution: so keep away from women in their courses, and do not approach them until they are clean. But when they have purified themselves, ye may approach them as ordained for you by Allah for Allah loves those who turn to Him constantly and He loves those who keep themselves pure and clean. So what this says is that Allah loves you as long as you don’t have sex with a menstruating woman (isn’t it great that we have “holy” books from 14 centuries ago to tell us things like this?). 3.146 How many of the Prophets fought in Allah’s way, and with them fought large bands of godly men? But they never lost heart if they met with disaster in Allah’s way, nor did they weaken in will nor give in. And Allah loves those who are firm and steadfast. As above, Allah loves you if you fight for him. Oh, and I came across this quote I’d forgotten about: 9.33 It is Allah Who hath sent His Messenger with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to cause it to prevail over all religion, even though the Pagans may detest it. So Islam is out to rule the world, according to this. In conclusion, your claim that “Koran promotes justice and equality” is a lie: Islam does not grant equal rights to women (or gays, or Jews, or Animists, and certainly not Atheists), and considers that the only good non-Muslim is a dead non-Muslim (burning in Hell). Bigmo, you are a liar, and I’m getting really bored with you. I think you’re a complete moron. There is no Father Christmas, no Easter Bunny, and no creator of the universe who writes books. Grow up.

[Intended]

The problem with this topic is that people are afraid of Islam and want it to disappear, just in case. Which makes them no better than radical Muslims. That's only one side of the problem, of course. Truth is that the Arabs are viewed as inferior in Western countries, even though they proclaim equality. Unfortunately, such democratical values are just beautiful words, most people don't live by them... So when something is viewed as inferior or "barbaric", they begin to think that they can (and even should!) "change" it in a way they think is a "superior" way to live. Please wake up and remember what equality means. Equality is when you don't think you're superior and when you acknowledge that others are just as right as you are. If everybody actually lived by this beautiful word, there'd be no need for people like Bigmo to come and defend their believes. Not only Western culture exists, there are others, and other cultures shouldn't be changed to become copies of the Western one. Changing other cultures = destroying them = radicalism... As it is, the situation is rather comical... A Muslim tries to argue a point with people who don't answer according to their own ideology (assuming others in the thread are Westerners) and answer only on emotions instead (Islam is bad!!). Especially funny it is to watch how people who know nothing about Islam argue about quotes with a Muslim. You know, it would really look funny to argue with a scientist about chemistry...

[Universal Mind]

The problem with this topic is that people are afraid of Islam and want it to disappear, just in case. Which makes them no better than radical Muslims. That's only one side of the problem, of course. Truth is that the Arabs are viewed as inferior in Western countries, even though they proclaim equality. Unfortunately, such democratical values are just beautiful words, most people don't live by them... So when something is viewed as inferior or "barbaric", they begin to think that they can (and even should!) "change" it in a way they think is a "superior" way to live. Please wake up and remember what equality means. Equality is when you don't think you're superior and when you acknowledge that others are just as right as you are. If everybody actually lived by this beautiful word, there'd be no need for people like Bigmo to come and defend their believes. Not only Western culture exists, there are others, and other cultures shouldn't be changed to become copies of the Western one. Changing other cultures = destroying them = radicalism... As it is, the situation is rather comical... A Muslim tries to argue a point with people who don't answer according to their own ideology (assuming others in the thread are Westerners) and answer only on emotions instead (Islam is bad!!). Especially funny it is to watch how people who know nothing about Islam argue about quotes with a Muslim. You know, it would really look funny to argue with a scientist about chemistry... Equality? If that is what you favor, are you sure you want to take up for Islam? Some of the quotes we have listed seem to speak against the equality of women and homosexuals, and the ones I keep trying to get Bigmo to explain are against equality between Muslims and non-Muslims. Apparently some other quotes promote it, but the quotes that keep getting ignored are adamantly against it, apparently, but I will give you a chance to explain otherwise because I would like to expand my knowledge. Since you know so much about Islam, please look at what I put in post #65 and explain the truth about those quotes to me. I know I don't know all that much about Islam, but I would like to learn some things about it, specifially the rebuttle to what I said about what the quotes in post #65 seem to be saying. I'm sure you can clear that up for me. Will you? Thanks.