Entertainment thread Hijack re magic etc

[Zhaylin]

This was posted by Black Eagle and I Originally Posted by Zhaylin.... original thread http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=73977 Me: "It depends entirely on what your belief system is. To me, magic is very real. I used to be a Solitary Practicioner or Wicca, I also did a fair share of dream interpretation and tarot card readings for people and I was very good That's why I am closed-minded on the subject because my religious beliefs are quite different now. Illusion is not magic but the way most magicians work is to give it a mystical element, so most magic shows are out of the question, but they can play around with it themselves but have no desire to....." Black Eagle replied: "But wouldn't you say that believing something doesn't make it so? Due to the fact that if magic was real, we'd actually be able to see evidence running rampant means that there's even less of a chance that it's real than God. If you consciously know that the magic performed on stage and magic in games isn't real, what difference does it make? Don't you think it's a little hypocritical to disallow your children to play video games that include magic or see a magic show, but you would allow them to practice stage magic? Let's assume magic is real. The magic in those shows and on video games still isn't. Also, dream interpretation and tarot card readings aren't magic. Tarot card readings is classified as Astrology. Have you any personal experiences with this Wicca that would conclusively lead you to believe that magic is real?" Discussions to follow...

[Zhaylin]

Not so much with Wicca, but with other Spiritism I had definitive evidence. But I'm uncomfortable talking about it and never have because I look back on those days with a sense of unreality. But I will talk about them here for as long as I'm comfortable doing so. As a kid throughout my teens I was desperately craving spiritual guidance. I had no mentors so I struck out on my own and read everything I could get my hands on from the Bible, books on Witchcraft and Celtics, to Mythology, the Satanic Bible, ESP etc. To a small extent I could control the actions and emotions of people around me. At that point I was very uneducated about the different crafts and beliefs and called them "Brain Communications" or "BC's". I made my right hand into a Kempo-style fist, would discretely concentrate on a person and give them simple comands like: "Scratch your nose, tie your shoes, CALM DOWN, leave the room." and it worked consistently. It worked best with people I was close to emotionally though. My innate ability scared and confused me which made my spiritual quest even more urgent. I played with the flame on a candle, making it dance though I was not breathing on it. I scried the future in my mirror a couple times only- it scared me too much. I had constant premonitions which were noticed often by my friends and relatives. Premonitions were my biggest "gift". A couple years later a couple boys and I sat in a field on a very clear day and within minutes we called rain. One day, I was skipping school and wanting a pack of cigarettes but I had no money. Following the advice of some book I was reading, I started visualizing myself finding a wad of one dollar bills. The amount kept growing in my mind until I got to $20. Moments later I walked through some grass next to a road sign and looked down to find $20. in one dollar bills, folded neatly though wet from exposure. The BIGGEST event, however, scared most of my "abilities" out of me and I started to distance myself from studying any spiritual beliefs for a while. When I was about 13, my uncle was sexually inappropriate with me. I kept it bottled in for the most part until I returned the next summer. 2 of my friends and I were in the attic and they were telling me how much this uncle creeped them out and how they were certain he had actually molested their very little sister because they saw blood in her panties. I became ENRAGED. My uncle (who was mentally retarded) had a crush on one of my friends and he came up into the attic to "flirt". I looked at him and thought: "Why don't you just leave, get one of your guns and kill yourself." IMMEDIATELY, he went downstairs to his room. I was terrified at what I had thought and followed him. In his hand was a gun that I had to convince him to put away. I lost my "BC" ability that very day. Other things I thought was magical at the time, but now realize was not, was my empathy. I could read people perfectly- even complete strangers. It's a gift I have kept over my lifetime. And you're right. I don't seriously view my former ability to interpret dreams and read tarot cards as magical but connect it to my ability to read people. As for my objections regarding my kids watching stage magic, it's only because of how it's presented. The magician often attributes the act to magic words or the intervention of spirits and such. It, like video games (IMO) makes it seem okay to call on such powers. It plants the seeds of curiosity of such and I don't WANT my kids curious about things I will absolutely not allow in my home. They challenge me enough (literally) the way it is. I tell them "no pentacles or pentagrams" and I later find them written ON THE WALLS of my home in hidable locations. Because of my beliefs, doing those things is INVITING demonic trouble and we have enough troubles without them. To me, God is VERY real. Magic is VERY real. God disproves of magic. The entertainment industry glorifies magic and "plays" with it as if it is harmless. To me, allowing my kids to satisfy curiosity about magic would be the same as giving them a loaded gun to play "cops and robbers" with. It could turn deadly fast. I don't fear magic or the demons though. I just refuse to invite them into our lives. I KNOW this makes me out to be a complete fruitcake. But you asked

[Black_Eagle]

Even though I could argue vehemently against it, let's assume you did have powers. These would be classified as psychic powers, not magic. In most stories and practices, there isn't much, if any, of what you are speaking of. No magic here, move along. Zhaylin, I am an atheist who approaches all things mystical with an open, yet extremely wary and skeptical mind. I do not believe in magic, I do not wish to practice magic. I love playing video games with magic in them and I also love magic shows. The adults in my life conveyed the message that magic wasn't real. You forbid all things referencing magic, and thus affirm the belief in your children that magic exists. If I were in this situation and my mother had taught me that magic was real, during my rebellious years I'd probably give into curiosity and explore the mystical, forbidden world of magic out of pure curiosity for that which lies unknown. Many, many people go to magic shows. I think it's safe to say that most of them don't believe it is real and are conscious that it is an illusion. What makes magic shows fun is wondering how the performer conducted the illusion. Watch David Blaine steal a guy's watch: That there is quality entertainment.

[juroara]

lets slow down here magic means many things magic to someone means controlling spirits magic to another means using natural energy given to you from the earth herself magic to another means something wonderful outside of your control, the kind of magic an atheist can believe in for example, I believe in magic. and I believe in the supernatural. Except really I don't believe there is such a thing such as magic and in the supernatural, just an entire large field of reality science has yet to discover. in other words, its just not currently explainable by science. but all things are explainable. what does magic mean to you? and why do you feel God disapproves of it? I got the impression you feel magic is wrong because it is about communicating/controlling spirits to do your will? but why does magic automatically imply demonic activity? is something magical because it is a ritual? what about baptism with water? is something magical because it is a communion with a spirit? what about angels or gurus, like Christ and Buddha? is something magical because it involves using energy to do something so called 'supernatural'? but what if the energy source was yourself, or God? and what if the phenomenon you can not explain is perfectly natural? why is empathy magical? and not natural? of course, this is all word play based on what one feels magic means. but what ever magic at the end of the day is to you, of course trying to control another is wrong. free will is divine, you should know that by now. what I dont what is for someone is to associate magic with the unexplained, then associate magic with evil. thus associated all unexplained phenomenon as evil. the end result, marguerite perrin =b

[Zhaylin]

Black Eagle raised some interesting points. Almost everything I did in the past is stereotypically associated with psychic abilities and not "magic" per se. What does magic mean to me? Even as a kid, because of my Bible studies, I knew necromancy was wrong. So I never tried to communicate with dead people or invoke spirits. Plus, I didn't really believe in ghosts- also because of my Bible understanding though incomplete at the time. The Bible says "the dead know nothing at all", which eliminated the possibility of ghosts for me. Magic for me, evolved into belief of channelling the "power within". As I grew older I came to conclude that any such is wrong because a person is supposed to rely on God and have faith that his powers are the only thing a person should rely on no matter the outcome. The Bible speaks of a woman who had the power of divination and made her owners rich because of it. She was following the apostles around and annoying them so they finally told the demon that possessed her to leave. It did and her powers of prophecy left her. The Bible also says that Satan and his demons transform themselves into "ministers of light"- meaning, they sometimes do good things to mislead people into believing things that are against God. So, a person with pschyic abilities may be very helpful and think the power is within themselves only, but they are actually possessed to some degree. It seems very closed-minded, but the Bible is very clear. The warring factions are God and Satan. Everything good and true (in a spiritual sense) is of God and everything else is under Satan's control. Satan has caused all the divisions in religious beliefs. Satan is in control of all things mystical, magical, psychic etc. That's not to say that people who believe in those things are inherantly "evil" or "wrong". In my mind, they have merely been deceived and many of them are very good and honest people. My qualm is with Satan and his demons alone and with Christian teachers who KNOW that some of the things they teach "don't add up" but continue teaching what they're told simply because they were told to do so. Empathy is not magical or psychic in nature. But as a kid I didn't understand that. I couldn't explain how I seemed to be able to read people's mind and intentions. Because of my chaotic and somewhat abusive upbringing, being able to read the nuances of body language became a matter of emotional survival. As a kid, it seemed mystical because I couldn't explain it. But I know understand what was going on. Excellent questions Juroara!

[WakataDreamer]

You know, it does say in the Bible that magic and psychic powers are real, and that people who use them are to be shunned and God frowns upon them, because they are using powers which are supposed to be reserved for God alone (or something like that.) The point is that the use of these powers encourage thoughts that you are “as powerful as God,” and other similar things, and there’s always temptation to misuse them. It is also hinted that some of these powers come from Satan, whom you are drawing on when you use them. But that’s talking about demon-summoning, Wicca, and stuff like that. Not just lifting a pinecone with your mind (or any other part of psionics). There is no “dark and evil” aspect to that. However, it also says in the Bible that Jesus died for our sins, and humans are free to do whatever they want and to disregard God’s previous laws so long as they try to remain inherently good and believe in Jesus and in the fact that he was the Son of God. So basically, feel free to mess around with any of that stuff so long as you remain a faithful Christian along the way. At least that’s what the Bible says. Btw I saw in post of yours that you’ve sampled Wicca and have read the Satanic Bible. Please don’t. Just… no. Both are evil. But Satanism much more so. Especially do not under any circumstances even look into Satanism. It’s a religion worshipping all that is evil in the universe. It’s sick, twisted, and depraved. And that’s my post.

[Rakjavik]

You know, it does say in the Bible that magic and psychic powers are real, and that people who use them are to be shunned and God frowns upon them, because they are using powers which are supposed to be reserved for God alone (or something like that.) The point is that the use of these powers encourage thoughts that you are “as powerful as God,” and other similar things, and there’s always temptation to misuse them. But since magic and psychic powers don't exist, there's nothing to piss god off about. Even if they did, funny god is so sensitive that he doesn't want someone to even use these powers for good. God wants to make sure he has the biggest penis in the house I guess. Btw I saw in post of yours that you’ve sampled Wicca and have read the Satanic Bible. Please don’t. Just… no. Both are evil. But Satanism much more so. Especially do not under any circumstances even look into Satanism. It’s a religion worshipping all that is evil in the universe. It’s sick, twisted, and depraved. The Satanic Bible (I'm assuming you mean Anton LaVey) does not worship anything except for people itself. It is very atheistic in nature from what I can understand. Also from what little I've read, it has much better morals in it then the Bible. And Wicca? I've never seen anything destructive come out of Wicca. They all want peace and to hug trees. Nothing wrong with loving mother earth. But, to the topic on hand. Magic doesn't exist. People see coincidences all the time and have self medicated delusions. It's like prayer, it's bound to happen right sometimes. And as for psychic powers, look up the Amazing Randy. No one has won that 100,000 dollar check yet.

[Invader]

It is also hinted that some of these powers come from Satan, whom you are drawing on when you use them. But that’s talking about demon-summoning, Wicca, and stuff like that. According to the history, those who believed in and attempted to summon actual demons were encouraged to maintain sexual abstinence, fast and pray regularly to God. The actual invocations used in these rituals were almost identical to the prayers that invoked the name of God as well. Here's a line that comes straight out of a 14th century manuscript known today as Codex Latinus Monacensis 849, preserved in the Bavarian State Library: "Come, O aforesaid spirits, come to me, come, for I command you by the eternal glory of God. Amen." (source: Forbidden Rites: A Necromancer's Manual of the Fifteenth Century) <3 History.

[Sandform]

Well if Zhay really can do the things she believes she can do I wish she would try to prove their existence rather than fearing them. But that will never happen. You know, you keep track of the hits but ignore the misses.../sigh. Sometimes I wonder if people who believe in these things just dream it and then remember it later on. Of course there are also embellishments that once told for so long you forget are even lies to begin with. My advice would have been magic isn't real don't worry about it, only you think magic is real. So my second advice would be many video games involving magic actually demonize magic, because you are fighting against evil forces. And vampires are usually demonized as well as evil creatures. Certainly you could at least allow them to see things that portray these creatures as evil. That is one of the major themes in Christianity, to scare people into doing as they are told. Fear of God and such. But do you really believe in vampires and zombies? My grandparents believed the same things you believe. "Writing on the wall invites demons" blah blah blah. It just lead to retarded self fulfilling prophecies. Maybe if you showed your children that magic really doesn't exist and it is benign they wouldn't be doing moronic things like writing on your walls. I've tried ALL kinds of magical bull shit and I have NEVER seen anything occur as a result of it. I've tried magic and nothing has ever happened to me. Nothing happened at all really. Please understand, I'm not trying to put you down or demean you, I just think that if you teach your children the truth, that magic is just silly superstition, they wont feel the need to write on the wall or toy with it anyway. Although they may enjoy the ouija board game that is sold in stores =).

[juroara]

all I can say is Satan gives no power. Satan has no power. Evil only uses fear and ignorance to manipulate and control. Hitler didn't have the power to kill thousands, he manipulated people to do it for him the power from within? What does the bible say about what else is within you? Heaven is within you. Who is in heaven? God. The power within you comes from God. This is why Holy Spirit doesn't manifest itself as a being and do the works for us. Instead the Holy Spirit works through people, within people. Our bodies are vessels for God's spirit. Which is why the bible describes the body as a temple. the question isn't where this power comes from. because Satan has no power to give. The question is will you submit your will to do a greater good. Powers reserved for God alone? If they were reserved for God alone, God would never tempt you with them. If you really believe in the bible, then you would understand, God wants you to have 'power'. God wants you to do what Jesus did and more. God wants you to be able to heal people. Heal yourself. Stop storms in their quake. Maybe even use, telekineses and stop bombs from falling. Who knows! But its there in the bible, that if someone really believes in Jesus. . . . they can do miraculous works. Again..its not a question of where this power comes from. Its a question of will. You say there is no communication with the dead. The bible does say that doesn't? But it wasn't Jesus who said this. Instead Jesus tells us a different story. That life doesn't end with the body. He even shows us this....with his resurrection. Was everything Jesus did for nothing? What more does a man have to do to show that death is an illusion? To say a spirit is dead because it's not in a physical body, is to say that God is dead. Because God is spirit. This is what the bible says God is, that God is spirit. And the bible also says God is living. This means spirits are living. There is no communication between living and the dead, because there are no dead. Only living spirits. Jesus painted for us a different picture. Heaven is already here on earth. . . . . .you just cant see it. I don't know what denomination you are, but I grew up Catholic. Catholics actually do believe its okay to communicate with spirits. The difference is. . . .some cultures think its okay to communicate with ANY spirit. Even BAD spirits. In catholicism, we only try to communicate with spirits that we feel are either in heaven - such as a small child praying to her dear mother. Angels or the santos. Every culture has a different way to protect themselves during these communications to ward off bad spirits. For a christian its a cross or a rosary. For another....smoke..for another...a circle of salt.

[Zhaylin]

Excellent points everyone! And they take the discussion into whole new areas... but because this is my thread, I don't mind it veering off the original course Because one thing often does lead to another and is ultimately On topic These are some of the foundations of my beliefs: When God created Adam, he 'breathed into his nostrils and Adam BECAME a living soul'. He wasn't GIVING a soul, he WAS his soul. Soul= Life. When Lazarus died and Jesus was on his way to see him with the Apostles, Jesus at first said: 'Lazarus has gone to sleep' (or something similar). The Apostles thought this meant he was merely resting after an illness, so Jesus clarified: 'Lazarus has died.' Death was then likened to a state of inactivity, not as a state of bliss in heaven or torment in a fiery hell. And when Lazarus was resurrected, he spoke of neither places. The proverb of the man in spirit form wanting a drop of water was hyperbole, much like that of 'a camel passing through the eye of a needle'. God is a spirit, as are the angels. I do not believe God and Jesus are the same person. Satan was a creation of God who succumbed to pride and made himself "Satan or Opposer" and "Devil or Liar". A third of the angel followed Satan and became known as Demons. Satan is the ruler of this world including all of the governments. When Jesus was being tempted by Satan, Satan had offered him all the Kingdoms of the world in their glory. If Satan didn't control them it would have been no temptation. When people die, they stay in the grave until the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous mentioned in the Bible. So praying to anything but God is futile. Jesus died for our sins but that doesn't give us a free pass to do whatever we want. The Bible says: 'He who endures to the end is the one being saved', which eliminates peoples belief in "once saved always saved". The Bible also says Christians are supposed to be footstep followers of Christ, imitating his example of rejecting everything that isn't of God etc. I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses though I am currently disfellowshipped (or excommunicated) from the congregation at this time. Christians are supposed to remain clean spiritually as well as morally and physically and I failed in that regard. I can return whenever I get my life in order. I can talk to the Elders (those who take the lead in teaching) but I cannot associate with anyone else. I lost my abilities when I misused them. Sometimes I think it was all just a dream, but deep down I know that isn't the case. I kept diaries in which I wrote about all of this until my ex-husband persuaded me to tear them up and through them into a body of water. Though I no longer have them, I remember I used to and I recall what some of them said so I can't easily dismis my memories as dreams. And yes, the Satanic Bible I read was the one I always described as "glorified hippies" for some reason. It did have an atheistic outlook and spouted living for oneself. Necronomicon was interesting but I viewed it as fiction and later found out it was. Wiccans live by the creed: "Do what thou will so long as it harms none". They are not "evil" in and of themselves. Oh yeah... I do not believe that Heaven is within me. Who was Jesus speaking to when he gave that illustration?- the Scribes and Pharisees who were twisted Scripture and misusing their authority. It was only an illustration.

[WakataDreamer]

Jesus died for our sins but that doesn't give us a free pass to do whatever we want. The Bible says: 'He who endures to the end is the one being saved', which eliminates peoples belief in "once saved always saved". The Bible also says Christians are supposed to be footstep followers of Christ, imitating his example of rejecting everything that isn't of God etc. It says that being good is a good thing to do, but it says that if you sin don't worry, cuz your saved. Btw it says in the Bible that Jesus and God are the same person. It's like.... one person with two bodies. Btw, you said that in the past you delved into many paranormal powers, and that you succeeded in many of them and this is why you refuse to let your kids play games with magic in them, since magic is real and you don’t want them to associate with it. Um… If what you say is true, could you point me in the direction of any learning material that you used and that worked for you to achieve any kind of "powers"? But nothing involving rituals, chanting, shadows, symbol-drawing, demons, or any other “dark aspect,” because I hate those branches with all of my heart.

[Zhaylin]

lol- Boy we could really start a debate on some of these points. But I am tired and will have to merely agree to disagree Except to say... the Bible states that when a husband and wife are married they become one. Do they truly share one body and mind? No, they're one in unity. My former abilities came natural to me, which lead to my confusion and curiosity, which lead me to study other beliefs. But it seems like eons ago lol. The only book I really remember was by ? Cunningham, I believe it was. It spoke on the magical properties of plants of which I dismissed most of them but looked at it from a scientific standpoint. It was still extremely educational because of the likely medical properties. I'll write anything else I remember but I wouldn't hold my breath if I was you. It's been at least 15 years since I last studied anything except Christianity.

[Sandform]

What do Jehovah witnesses believe happens to people who don't go to heaven? I know people say Jehovah's believe only 144000 thousand people (Or some equally low number) make it to heaven. If that is true do you think everyone who existed minus those 144000 thousand people go to Hell?

[Invader]

Here, Sandform. My religious beliefs say only 144,000 people go to heaven and the rest of righteous mankind will live forever on a perfect planet. The Bible says the 144,000 will be Priests and Kings for 1,000 years... which has often left me wondering what they will do after that time. Quoted from: http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...ad.php?t=74181

[Sandform]

Ah.

[Zhaylin]

I must leave in 4 minutes lol. Great find Invader!! We don't believe in a fiery hell of torment. We believe the majority of mankind (Witnesses and others) will be resurrected to eternal life on a perfect planet. After 1,000 years, Satan and the Demons will be freed from the abyss to test perfected mankind once more. Sadly, many of them will still side with Satan and be destroyed. The rest of righteous humanity will then know true and everlasting peace on Earth. When a person (as well as Satan and the demons) are destroyed, no part of them remains.

[DeathCell]

Magick, is not something you should play around with if you are weak minded.

[Black_Eagle]

I must leave in 4 minutes lol. Great find Invader!! We don't believe in a fiery hell of torment. We believe the majority of mankind (Witnesses and others) will be resurrected to eternal life on a perfect planet. After 1,000 years, Satan and the Demons will be freed from the abyss to test perfected mankind once more. Sadly, many of them will still side with Satan and be destroyed. The rest of righteous humanity will then know true and everlasting peace on Earth. When a person (as well as Satan and the demons) are destroyed, no part of them remains. Question: If I don't side with Satan and I don't side with God, do I get destroyed too? I'm just trying to live my life here and these jerks are trying to rule me.

[Zhaylin]

You can't sit on the fence on this one. Satan owns the fence lol. It's a lot more complicated than that. If you've never had the opportunity to learn the truth about God and apply it in your life. Or if you're mentally ill and unable to, you would be resurrected and given a chance to learn during the 1,000 year reign of Christ when Satan and the demons are temporarily abyssed. If you know the truth, like me, and decide to do your own thing, consequences be damned- then you will likely not be resurrected. But ulimately, no one knows beyond an absolute doubt because the choice is God's.

[Black_Eagle]

You can't sit on the fence on this one. Satan owns the fence lol. It's a lot more complicated than that. If you've never had the opportunity to learn the truth about God and apply it in your life. Or if you're mentally ill and unable to, you would be resurrected and given a chance to learn during the 1,000 year reign of Christ when Satan and the demons are temporarily abyssed. If you know the truth, like me, and decide to do your own thing, consequences be damned- then you will likely not be resurrected. But ulimately, no one knows beyond an absolute doubt because the choice is God's. Well that's kind of ridiculous. I just wanna go off doing my own thing, not hurting people or nature, not caring about God's teachings or satan's ways, but these two egocentric ghosts tell me I have to choose a side?

[DeathCell]

Satan is a joke, its simply something created by Christianity, notice those of Jewish fate are not scared of him. Satan is how you control people, it's a wonderful excuse for all that is wrong with the world and a way to pre-judge anyone not of Christian faith (it must be Satan!) Black_Eagle, just don't buy into Christian Dogma and you will be fine.

[Lucky27]

I would not necessarily claim that Satan is a joke. I've never met the guy physically face-to-face. But I see his works all over the place, and I'm not scared of him. I can however say that I've met God and; in fact, he's right here with me. You can talk to him if you'd like. I certainly do all the time. In all honesty though...I was once the same way. I didn't believe in religion, or the Bible--none of that stuff made sense to me--too many contradictions. Too many "one true" religions. I didn't know which one was right. And the truth is...none of them are right. But I wasn't ready to understand that, and I led myself to believe that there was no God. And where did I go? I went to hell. For seven years I had no faith. Certainly I could do it my own way. It began with drugs, then sex, then violence, then breaking petty rules/laws, then thinking all rules were petty and breaking them--and getting away with everything. One night I was prepared to run away from everything--my family, friends, my job, society. And right at the breaking point, I overdosed on drugs. Half-conscious, unable to move, feeling my brain cells "popping--pop-pop-pop", and fighting death in my bed for 10 hours straight...that's when God said "Have you had enough of this?" (That's not what he literally said; in fact, it's hard to explain, but doesn't communicate with us through words...it's more like through ideas and understanding) I'm not asking anyone to believe my story, and turn their lives over to God right this second. Like I said, I know where you are. And maybe you're not as rash, and as impulsive as I am. Maybe you'll never have to trudge through piles and miles of shit, and maybe you'll never need God in your life. I'm not some bible thumping religious zealot who's going around casting judgment upon all those "unholy non-believers". That's God's job. I'm a lot more open-minded now, than I was when I was atheist. My point is, don't go throwing all God believers into some shitpile categorization. "Oh, he's a moron...he believes in God" The truth is you can learn a lot from everyone. It's not good to go around unabashedly naysaying something you don't understand. Religion is for those who are afraid of going to hell, and spirituality is for those who have already been there. Maybe you're already in hell, and you just don't know it yet.

[ClouD]

Belief in God is not freedom.

[Lucky27]

That's because you don't know what freedom is.