Thread: Dream Control without Lucidity

It is perfectly possible to control your dream without having a hint of lucidity. I do it myself all the time.

In the same way, it is perfectly possible to be lucid without a hint of control.

Your situation is pretty much an exact replica of mine =). Natural semi-lucid dreamer, FTW!

A semi-lucid is when you "know" its a dream without the conscious realization that it's a dream. You then can control it because you know its a dream even though you don't really. It sounds like crap on paper but you probably understand what I mean. XD I've never really encountered someone else that experienced it in such a similar fashion as I do though. Most people here have only have experienced full lucidity and the ones that HAVE experienced a semi don't ever seem to experience the lucid "sandbox"

Also, the fact that you used that word to describe your world interests me. If I'm not mistaken, that means you have experience with a sandbox editor in a game or at least know what that is. I've always wanted to know if there are factors that determine who will be a natural semi-lucid dreamer so, I'd like to ask a couple questions if you're cool with that.

What are your hobbies/interests? Do you play video games much and, if so, do you ever create or mod games? Do you ever create other stuff? (music, art....)

I've always wondered if thinking from such a creationary aspect could potentially have influenced me to become a semi-lucid dreamer or the perhaps my dreams influenced my interest in creating stuff.

Anyways, this may seem like a whole lot out of nowhere but I guess thats just my style.. XD To answer your question, yep theres others like you. Hope you stick around and join in the fun here at DV.

I've never really heard of this before, interesting stuff. I once had a non-lucid dream where I could do telekinesis, I was even ready to run to a friend of mine to show her what I could do, then I woke up and was like "aww, it was all just a dream..."

Originally Posted by arby

Also, the fact that you used that word to describe your world interests me. If I'm not mistaken, that means you have experience with a sandbox editor in a game or at least know what that is. I've always wanted to know if there are factors that determine who will be a natural semi-lucid dreamer so, I'd like to ask a couple questions if you're cool with that.

What are your hobbies/interests? Do you play video games much and, if so, do you ever create or mod games? Do you ever create other stuff? (music, art....)

I've always wondered if thinking from such a creationary aspect could potentially have influenced me to become a semi-lucid dreamer or the perhaps my dreams influenced my interest in creating stuff.
.

I play videogames, and compose piano music (self taught ). I'm starting to teach myself Finale, a music compisition program. I love music in general and listen to it all the time. In addition to bands, I listen to a lot of soundtracks from movies and videogames. I consider myself very creative, but I can't draw at all. I also run a lot and I'm actually gonna train for a Marathon next year. I know that has nothing to do with dreaming but I wanted to add something cool.

I got the sandbox term from playing Gmod, a sandbox mod for Half Life 2. It uses an awesome physics system (Havok) and a bunch of fun tools. I can create whatever I want in the game.... Build working catapults from scratch, make Rube Goldberg machines, play around with ragdolls... with the right tools I can do practically anything.

I just started playing that only recently, though, so that doesn't explain my dream control. However, I think I do know where I got time control from... And it is a videogame. The Prince of Persia: the Sands of Time trilogy. I never really used time control until I started playing the second game. I never dreampt about time control in the game... I just started using it in regular dreams.

...I actually wrote about this a long time ago back when I had a Myspace blog (myspace sucks and I never use it now). The blog is really long so I don't want to paste it here...

I remember creating music a couple of times in my dreams... I once dreampt about composing a 4 movement orchestral piece about outer space. I remember some of the parts, but sadly I can't remember enough to put it to paper.

I would definitely say that videogames and my creative side have influenced my dream control, and are probably completely responsible for it.

And I understand what you said about knowing that your in a dream but not really. I think that subconsciously, you are aware of it, and perhaps to an extent, consciously too. Its like the awareness is in the back of your mind: Its there, but you arent thinking about it. It's hard to explain.

Heh, awesome. I'm also a music junkie although I was never really good at making it. Played around in FL but couldn't make anything decent. I listen to huge amounts of instrumental stuff. I get lots of my music from here (it seems like the least likely place but its actually awesome) I also can't draw for crap although I wish I could.. XD

Ah, yes Garry's mod. awesome editor. =)

And of course PoP. It seems alot of people steal ideas from that trilogy and use then in their dreams. I used huge amounts of moves from it for weeks after playing it XD

and trying to explain about semi-lucidity.. =/ always hard. Most people who have never experienced it don't really believe in it. It almost seems to defy logic when you really try to figure out whats happening in your mind.

I wouldn't call this lucid in any way though arby...

Its more like having a normal dream about stuff you've heard about in video games and on TV.


Your not even subconsciously aware that your "dreaming", just that reality is different than everyday life and that its possible to spawn weapons/control time (like your in "video game reality" or something).
I've also had a bunch of these.

Originally Posted by BillyBob_001

I wouldn't call this lucid in any way though arby...

Its more like having a normal dream about stuff you've heard about in video games and on TV.


Your not even subconsciously aware that your "dreaming", just that reality is different than everyday life and that its possible to spawn weapons/control time (like your in "video game reality" or something).
I've also had a bunch of these.

I understand how it may seem that way from what we were discussing but that is not the case. I've had non-lucid (30% on my scale) video game dreams too and they are nothing like this. Its all about the in-dream laws. In a random video game dream you still have to follow the laws set by the dream world/video game.

In contrast, in a semi-lucid, you control the laws. This is why we likened it to a sandbox. You do whatever you want. I can liken full lucidity to a sandbox also. Although, its more like a sandbox where you're stuck in the editor 24/7 and don't get very much play time =P Plus, the editor consumes extra resources and is really buggy.

God damn thats a good metaphor.

But yeah, If you want to summarize semi-lucidity in one sentence...

Another ability I seem to have is to guide or alter the course of my dream simply by wishing it.

Using an example from your control tut..

For forced control you say "This happens because I'm in a dream"

For passive control you say "This happens because of [reason]"

For semi-lucid control you say "This happens just because" (or you just use passive control. Depends on the level of lucidity)

It makes infinitely more sense once you've experienced it.

But yeah, back to addressing the video game and creative aspect effecting it, its not because our dreams are composed of it. Its because its altered our way of thinking and altered our perception of reality in a way that when given an environment that is so flexible (dream) we often automatically can alter and control it.

I think what we have here is just a difference in our definitions of what "lucid" means.
There's probably no real way to settle this, but I can give you my viewpoint on it


As you said:

Originally Posted by arby

I understand how it may seem that way from what we were discussing but that is not the case. I've had non-lucid (30% on my scale) video game dreams too and they are nothing like this. Its all about the in-dream laws. In a random video game dream you still have to follow the laws set by the dream world/video game.

But most dreams are a mixture of different "laws" from different sources.

For example, you can have a dream where you can make portals (the game: "portal"), and also where you can fly ("superman"). Now obviously these two things are very similar - they're videogames, but most "law" compilations aren't so obvious.

Like you can have a dream where women in it act like anime characters, and look like biker chicks. Or, like your talking about, a dream where the laws are a mixture between "lucid dream rules" and "real life rules.
These dreams aren't lucid in any way other than the fact that the laws within them are taken from the laws that you attribute to lucid dreams.

The dreamer never even passively thinks: "this is a dream so I can do whatever I want", he simply does the stuff like he would if he had thought that.
There's no activity in the prefrontal cortex/whatever-activates-lucidity, its just a dream about lucid dreams, mixed with a dream about real life or some other world.


These can't be considered truly "lucid" in any way, because the true dreamer (you), doesn't know that he/she is lucid, only the dream character does.

__________________

Like I said though, we're simply arguing about a definition, which is pretty pointless

I think I can clear things up about this lucidity argument.




I've been thinking about how dream control appears in my dreams again... And I've recognized some patterns here. There's basically two different outcomes when it comes to stopping time. (ex 1) I'm in a dream and have to concentrate (sometimes a lot) to stop time. (ex 2) I'm in a dream, and stopping time just kind of happens without any kind of effort by me.

The key to making this distinction between the examples is the presence of conscious effort. I have had plenty of dreams where time alteration just sort of happens in the dream. In fact, I can't really say that the control was even by my dream self; its more like my mind just decided to add it into the dream. So, basically, these dreams are normal... just with cool time effects.

However, when I have to concentrate to alter time, that's definitely a sign of some level of consciousness. This is kind of hard to explain, but think of it this way: my mind is progressing the dream normally, and my conscious self is fighting against it to change the course of the dream. I think this means you need to be self-aware in the dream for this to happen. There are events happening and you want to change them. In most dreams, things just kind of happen with no thoughts of "what if things could be different?". For some weird reason, this can happen without me being aware of dreaming.

So, after thinking about this, I wouldn't really classify this as "semi lucidity" because there is no awareness of being in a dream. I would say however, that there is self awareness. And I think that is what makes it possible to control or alter your dream without being aware of it.




EDIT: I just remembered about another thing I can sometimes do: I can consciously decide to wake up from my dream. I have used this in a couple dreams that got scary for me. Just a couple weeks ago, I had a dream that was progressing normally for a while... Eventually I got into an empty car and was about to back out. I looked in the rearview mirror and all of the sudden I saw 3 people in the seats looking at me. As soon as our eyes met, I became paralyzed, my vision tunneled and turned red, and I felt a lot of fear. After a second or so, I forced myself out of that dream and woke up(I remember that it took concentration to do this) Looking back, I think what happened what started that my mind somehow became aware of my sleep paralysis in the dream.

This is interesting because I was never consciously aware of dreaming the entire time. You might argue that I was aware only at the last second... and that might be right. After all, how can I force myself out of a dream without being aware that I am dreaming? The only thing I can come up with is that I must be aware of the dream subconsciously. I know this is a different explanation from the one I just posted.

Perhaps you need to be subconsciously aware that you are dreaming... AND have some level of self-awareness so that you can alter events relative to your own frame of reference....

You know what? I just realized I have no idea what I am talking about. The subconscious is something I know next to nothing on. I'm just spouting out ideas based off my experiences. This is all very interesting... I wish we had some guys with degrees in psychology to discuss this with us.

Originally Posted by BillyBob_001

But most dreams are a mixture of different "laws" from different sources.

For example, you can have a dream where you can make portals (the game: "portal"), and also where you can fly ("superman"). Now obviously these two things are very similar - they're videogames, but most "law" compilations aren't so obvious.

Like you can have a dream where women in it act like anime characters, and look like biker chicks. Or, like your talking about, a dream where the laws are a mixture between "lucid dream rules" and "real life rules.
These dreams aren't lucid in any way other than the fact that the laws within them are taken from the laws that you attribute to lucid dreams.

The dreamer never even passively thinks: "this is a dream so I can do whatever I want", he simply does the stuff like he would if he had thought that.
There's no activity in the prefrontal cortex/whatever-activates-lucidity, its just a dream about lucid dreams, mixed with a dream about real life or some other world.

I never like the black and white definition (evidently, because it doesn't incorporate semis)

But I'm still not sure if we're on the same page here. You don't stay with one set of laws. You can start out as a normal human then wish to fly and suddenly grant yourself superman powers. You can determine how a DC will react. This is often useful in more er... naughty... circumstances but can also be used in battle (make them do a fatal mistake). You can summon things. I want some fast transport so I imagine a trucks coming up the road. (good ol' passive, eh?) I leap onto the truck tear the driver out and take control.

The dream laws are whats convenient/what you will to happen. Not pre-determined.

EDIT: because I didn't see Cow's post when first posting this.

This is why its so much fun to argue definitions =) By the black and white "you consciously know or you don't" there is no place for a semi-lucid (or what ever you really want to call it) But, really back to what the point of the thread is, self-awareness, semi-lucidity or whatever you want to call it is decently common around here.

Also, welcome to DV. The place of 1000 conflicting viewpoints.

EDIT EDIT: for cow's EDIT.

Someone with a psychology degree would be awesome to talk with. I've read books that touch on many of the major centers of the brain and its crazy how different it is from what we normally think. Although, it may be still be beyond today's even most modern science.

Also, its quite natural to be confusing yourself with this. You have only memories to work with. Just keep it in mind and analyze dreams as they come. Perhaps you'll be able to come up with better stuff about it then I have.

I do this a lot, too. It's kind of frustrating; I'd rather be fully lucid. If something's not going my way in a dream, I'll just change it without really being lucid.

EDIT:
I play lots of video games, and my favorites are sandbox simulations (Falling sand game, Garry's Mod, etc.)

Edit, again...:
I can force myself awake from dreams too. I used to have nightmares all the time, and I'd just force my eyes to open, and I'll wake up. Didn't know other people do almost exactly the same stuff I do...

This has happened to me once, in a nightmare. Instead of first-person, I was in third and I thought I've got to get away (I was in a 30 storey apartment block) and i saw myself dive through the window, almost hit the ground but fly and I thought I want fire so there was fire out of my hands, destroying my persuer.

It was much like the Sandbox editor in Halo 3 where I was another player providing things for my character but I also made decisions for him.

I used to be a 'hardcore' gamer but have stopped for about a month, and I have not played it barely at all during this time. I am extremely musical playing 4 instruments. I am doing grade 5 saxophone now.

I would still rather have proper Lucids than this though as I have not had one yet.

Currently, Ive been taking a break from lucid dreaming, where I have absolutely no intent to have a lucid dream. Laberge recommended coming back to lucid dreaming after a break.

During this time, I have been experiencing semi-lucidity. I didnt think it could exist before I experienced it.

For example, I had a dream where I was waiting to catch a train. As soon as the train pulled up, its doors opened and then shut and it left the station. I was mad, and I was yelling "come back here!" I sort of used the force and pulled the train back to the station with telekenesis and climbed on. The strange thing is I didnt even think twice about it. I remember thinking "its just a dream I can do what I want", but I wasnt lucid. I can understand how this wouldnt make sense to anyone who hasnt experienced it.

I knew it was a dream, but I didnt know how profound it was that it was a dream. Its sort of like a loved one dying. If your grandma has just died you say "grandma died" You dont really know how to think about it at first because you are in shock and you cant properly grasp it, so you think about it nonchalantly. After you really know what that means, your reaction might be "Oh my god! Grandma! Shes gone forever!"Its the same thing with semi lucidity. You know that you are dreaming, but you arent in a mental state to properly grasp how profound it is. Once you realize what it really means to be dreaming, your reaction is more like "Oh my god Im dreaming! I can do whatever I want! I am god! No consequences!" Sadly, in semi-lucidity, I am not aware of how profound my situation actually is.