Thread: lemmefly's Workbook for the meditation in LD class

Hey there, I just wanted to give my 2 cents on the "Stroke of Insight" video as well.

First off, I should mention that I had already seen that video about 3 months ago, so it wasn't completely new and surprising to me.
That being said, she is clearly describing an extremely unique experience here. She was obviously able to tap into spheres of consciousness that are usually closed to the untrained western average joe (or jill ).
There obviously seems to be a huge correlation between brain function and altered states of mind or spiritual experiences, so it is nice to get a description of such an extraordinary event from a person with scientific background who is using a language most people in our culture can relate to.

I think a lot of people would argue that claiming the brain's function is seperated into left and right hemispheric activity (left as the 'logical' center, right as the 'emotional' center) is over-simplifying things or just plain out wrong. I have no big background in these areas of brain science, so I can't really say if that simplification is valid or not, but I at least wanted to point out that things might actually be a bit more complicated than the brain giving it's processing priority to just one of its hemispheres at a given time.

Anyways, she obviously seemed very enthusiastic about what happened to her that day, so one can imagine what an intense subjective experience this must have been to her. What I didn't really get from the video is how the experience changed her perception of the world afterwards. Was and is she just able now to switch between these different states at will? (I dont think so)

Even if she is, I am still unsure if I want to value this whole story as a full-blown experience of enlightenment. One of the characteristics of a really enlightened person (and I can only talk about book-knowledge here, ldo) is that a complete shift of perception for the rest of one's life is taking place. As long as you are still slipping in and out of this state from time to time, it doesn't 'count'.
A good example of a person who spontaneously entered that state without formal meditation training is the story of Flora Courtois in her book "An enlightenment experience". It is only a small print of 20 pages or so, and it is completely contained in another book called "The hazy moon of enlightenment" which you can get pretty cheaply.
Her story was even more inspiring to me, as she is describing a steady change of her whole mind and her perception of the world (especially her sense of sight underwent a dramatic change), ending at a point where after one life-changing experience of going inwards suddenly all of her questions had been answered and she was basically liberated (in the buddhist sense).

I am not sure if I can put Jill's experience on the same level as that, but it is clear that she was at least able to get a free sample of what extreme possibilities lie in everyone of us conscious beings.

So lets meditate and find out for ourselves what all the fuss is about!

Originally Posted by lemmefly

I think a lot of people would argue that claiming the brain's function is seperated into left and right hemispheric activity (left as the 'logical' center, right as the 'emotional' center) is over-simplifying things or just plain out wrong. I have no big background in these areas of brain science, so I can't really say if that simplification is valid or not, but I at least wanted to point out that things might actually be a bit more complicated than the brain giving it's processing priority to just one of its hemispheres at a given time.

I quite agree. I understand that there's some fair evidence that language processing doesn't occur exclusively in the left hemisphere. Also, even though mathematics seems like it would be a clear example of a left-brain discipline, for some reason there's a powerful trend wherein mathematicians are interested in and fairly skilled with music, and we know from MRI scans that music is actually distributed throughout the brain on both hemispheres. (I'm afraid I don't have a good reference for that claim, though. It's just a factoid I keep encountering from time to time.)

Originally Posted by lemmefly

Anyways, she obviously seemed very enthusiastic about what happened to her that day, so one can imagine what an intense subjective experience this must have been to her. What I didn't really get from the video is how the experience changed her perception of the world afterwards. Was and is she just able now to switch between these different states at will? (I dont think so)

Even if she is, I am still unsure if I want to value this whole story as a full-blown experience of enlightenment. One of the characteristics of a really enlightened person (and I can only talk about book-knowledge here, ldo) is that a complete shift of perception for the rest of one's life is taking place. As long as you are still slipping in and out of this state from time to time, it doesn't 'count'.

I'm inclined to disagree on this point. Most people I've read about or talked to who talk about enlightenment from an enlightened standpoint insist that enlightenment is a process, not a state of mind. I understand that a common trend in Zen training is to experience brief moments of kensho, and that with continued practice these moments become longer and more frequent, eventually fusing into a continual experience. (That is, I should note, consistent with the idea that one is learning how to think with a different part of one's brain than one would usually use.)

Originally Posted by lemmefly

A good example of a person who spontaneously entered that state without formal meditation training is the story of Flora Courtois in her book "An enlightenment experience". It is only a small print of 20 pages or so, and it is completely contained in another book called "The hazy moon of enlightenment" which you can get pretty cheaply.
Her story was even more inspiring to me, as she is describing a steady change of her whole mind and her perception of the world (especially her sense of sight underwent a dramatic change), ending at a point where after one life-changing experience of going inwards suddenly all of her questions had been answered and she was basically liberated (in the buddhist sense).

Thank you for the reference!

And thank you for your personal impressions.

Thanks for your comment Morphenius!

I think I made myself a bit unclear about the middle part. It's not that I believe that the goal is to become enlightened and then you are basically done with this all. Even after the (final) kensho experience, there is still deepening taking place and a refining which goes on till the end of one's life.
However, I believe that there is a certain point from which you just act and perceive from a completely different level than before and dont go back anymore. An analogy would be that you have been in a dark room all of your life, and suddenly you find a door and walk outside. You are not limited to your old beliefs, schemes and perceptions anymore, but you still have a lot to explore yourself (the 'outside'). So even though there may be a gradual approaching and ongoing, I believe that a lot of people will have that one significant experience where they finally 'step over the border' and dont return.

That being said, the book that I mentioned ("Hazy moon of enlightenment") has a discussion in it too about gradual vs. spontaneous enlightenment, so you might really wanna think about getting that if you are interested in a deeper discussion on that. The final moral seems to be that both experiences are possible and valid (and dependent on the kind of school or teaching one subscribes to and practices).

Just one last quick note, I think a lot of people that could be seen as "enlightened" would never use that word themselves or see their experiences in that context. It is still a very subjective experience and everyone has to make it on their own. I guess going too much into semantics is pretty much fruitless here and it has been said often enough that striving for a 'special' kind of state will just slow down the whole development process.

I myself have noticed that I spend too much of the meditation time analyzing and thereby cutting in my own progress. Thoughts like "Nice, I think I just had a quiet thoughtless mind for at least 2 minutes.", are just as useless and limiting as "This is stupid, I dont feel like doing this anymore" or "That chick I saw today was super-hot".

I think we should really use our energy and focus to find ways to shortcut this re-programming of the brain and gain the ability to enter a complete thoughtless state for as long as we wish.

You're quite welcome! These exchanges are fun.

What I meant to call into question was the attitude that Taylor's enlightenment experience could be considered "not really enlightenment" based on the fact that she didn't remain in that state. I don't think my own moments of kensho were somehow invalid or inauthentic simply because they were of finite duration, although I'll certainly admit that they probably weren't as deep an experience of enlightenment as is possible. I doubt it's an "on/off" matter where one is either enlightened or not enlightened at a given moment.

I certainly relate to your experiences with the chattering mind. I struggle with that too. I get caught up with thoughts like "Wow, I'm so peaceful and quiet inside!" One of the things I'm getting out of the book An Open Heart that Waving on Oceans had recommended we read is that there is a kind of explicit thinking that really can help with developing a meditative state of mind. That's incredibly helpful because it allows me to leverage my chattering mind rather than oppose it in order to become a more happy and compassionate person. I've been experimenting with this for a few days and am quite pleased with the results so far. If I remember correctly, H.H. the Dalai Lama refers to this style of meditation as "analytic meditation". Perhaps this is at least the beginnings of the kind of reprogramming you propose searching for?

Originally Posted by lemmefly

I think a lot of people would argue that claiming the brain's function is seperated into left and right hemispheric activity (left as the 'logical' center, right as the 'emotional' center) is over-simplifying things or just plain out wrong. I have no big background in these areas of brain science, so I can't really say if that simplification is valid or not, but I at least wanted to point out that things might actually be a bit more complicated than the brain giving it's processing priority to just one of its hemispheres at a given time.

Originally Posted by Morphenius

I understand that there's some fair evidence that language processing doesn't occur exclusively in the left hemisphere.

My memory sucks for all things science related (*sigh*), but if I recall correctly, it doesn't in women. I'm not sure about men. Language at least is different from one gender to another.
Also, I can say from personal experience that the part of the brain that understands language isn't the same that physically controls speech, although I have no idea on which hemisphere these operate.

I tried getting that book by the Dalai Lama, but unfortunately I could not get my hands on it.

There's a digital (albeit incomplete) version of it on Google Books.

For example, in working on compassion, one performs an analytical meditation by considering why one wants to become more compassionate and then uses one's mind in order to perceive others' suffering and inspire a desire to alleviate their suffering. When this state of compassion arises, then one switches to a calm abiding of the compassionate state itself so as to allow it to be integrated more deeply into one's being rather than simply being generated by mental noise.

I won't be able to read that book either. I think I saw it the year it came out but now it's gone under the radar (and I'm broke, anyway ). Thanks for the link, Morphenius. I did remember once hearing the Dalai Lama explaining this on TV.

I tried getting that book by the Dalai Lama, but unfortunately I could not get my hands on it. It is not available where I live (Germany) and I also wasn't able to find a digital version on the internet.

Maybe you can give me a short description of how this "analytic meditation" works (via this thread or PM). It certainly sounds like the way to go for us western minds. I think I heard or read something like that before, but right now I am uncertain about how this is supposed to work.

In my opinion it is very helpful and necessary to analyze one's experiences that occur in the meditation sessions, it should just be AFTER the session, not while it is still going on. Sometimes it can be really frustrating to lose the 'object' of meditation (like watching the breath or just feeling in the moment) every 30 seconds and get drawn away by random silly thoughts. This is really not as easy as I thought I would be when I started. Some sessions I think to myself afterwards "That was a pretty good one", but usually it's more like "Meh, that was pretty bad, nothing but useless thought trains dragging me away all the time".
Oh well, I guess thats why we are practicing this and taking a course

I'm sorry you're having such difficulty finding the book! There's a digital (albeit incomplete) version of it on Google Books.

This webpage (which I just now found) seems to give a reasonably good description of analytical meditation and how it differs from one that I think amounts to what the Dalai Lama refers to as "calm abiding". In short, analytical meditation consists of using one's rational mind in order to stir up a desired state, at which point one switches to calm abiding in order to let one's awareness rest on this state so that it can "sink in" so to speak. For example, in working on compassion, one performs an analytical meditation by considering why one wants to become more compassionate and then uses one's mind in order to perceive others' suffering and inspire a desire to alleviate their suffering. When this state of compassion arises, then one switches to a calm abiding of the compassionate state itself so as to allow it to be integrated more deeply into one's being rather than simply being generated by mental noise.

(As an aside, that website I just linked you to refers to calm abiding as "zhiney", which I've usually seen written as "Zhiné". One of my favorite references for Zhiné is The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche. You can read the section on Zhiné online at Google Books, bearing in mind that you'll need to use the hyperlinks in the table of contents to get to the chapter on Zhiné in order to read that chapter before your preview limit is reached.)

Thanks for the explanation.
To be honest, this seems pretty advanced and a little too abstract for me right now.
As I told you, I have huge problems even keeping my focus on something physical like my breath, or a candleflame. Focusing on an abstract idea like compassion (and holding that thought or feeling for an extended period of time) seems even more complicated and hard to do.
Maybe I will come back to that later....

Hey fellow class mates
I have been on a short trip to relatives over the weekend, so I wasn't able to attend the weekly chat, but as it looks it hasn't been taking place anyways. I hope waving will clear up how the course is going to continue now soon.

Unfortunately the weather here was pretty bad last week (rainy and cloudy a lot of the time) so I wasn't really able to do the meditation against the sunlight, but I plan on giving it a shot as soon as weather conditions improve.

Instead, I did my daily little meditations of 20mins once or twice a day (mostly once...I was a little short on 'alone time'). Right now I usually do the kind of meditation where you just sit still and listen to the sounds in your head. At first all I could hear was a hissing noise (I think this is just a biological sound of rushing blood or something). I hear it everytime when I am in a quiet environment and concentrate on any noise inside my head. After a couple of tries I was then able to get to a more deep buzzing sound that is kind of 'beneath' the hissing. I get to that phase almost always now after a couple of minutes of listening in. And then there was this one time where I could hear a third internal sound, and this time it was a high pitched ringing sound, the same I have heard multipe times just before entering a WILD. Some of you might know what I am talking about, it's pretty common I believe. Unfortunately it happened at minute 19 of my meditation, so shortly after my alarm rang and took me out of it. I also haven't been able to get there again (and that was more than one week ago). Sometimes the environment also is just too noisy (for instance a fridge or boiler running nearby and distracting me with its external sound).
Furthermore, I think I will probably have to add a couple of mins per session and find a way to deal with the annoying pain in the feet and back, in order to get to more deep and profound states of mind.

I also noticed that some session it just seems like it's no use trying any harder, I will just zone out again and again. It's still hard to keep random thoughts from coming up and occupying my mind-space. It also seems to me that my eyes start twitching and going in all kinds of directions as soon as thoughts pop up. There seems to be a heavy correlation and I am thinking that by just concentrating on keeping my eyes still I could maybe keep the thought-machine silent as well.


Well, thats all I have to say for now I guess, feel free to drop some comments and ideas guys.

I get to that phase almost always now after a couple of minutes of listening in.

You seem to be getting the hang of it already, even if it's still just sounds. I suppose your experience with WILDing also has been helpful on transitioning faster, no?

Sometimes the environment also is just too noisy (for instance a fridge or boiler running nearby and distracting me with its external sound).

I once tried plugging my ears with toilet paper, haha. I wanted the cotton plugs I use sometimes when working on my PC, but couldn't find them. Don't know how well it works (toilet paper sucks, btw).

Furthermore, I think I will probably have to add a couple of mins per session and find a way to deal with the annoying pain in the feet and back, in order to get to more deep and profound states of mind.

I find that my back doesn't hurt if I'm sitting against something (a wall, furniture, a hard pillow, whatever). You can still keep straight but you don't put as much strain on your back. Also, I don't always cross my legs tightly. I use a more loose position, keep my feet inside the crook of the legs instead of beneath them. It's better for longer sessions and also if you have circulation problems.

I also noticed that some session it just seems like it's no use trying any harder, I will just zone out again and again. It's still hard to keep random thoughts from coming up and occupying my mind-space. It also seems to me that my eyes start twitching and going in all kinds of directions as soon as thoughts pop up. There seems to be a heavy correlation and I am thinking that by just concentrating on keeping my eyes still I could maybe keep the thought-machine silent as well.

Some days I quit, too. I sit there and start clearing my head and next thing I know, I've spent the last 10 or 15 mins mentally ranting about whatever. It's pretty much useless.
You seem to get a bit worked up with these things. I was telling Waving the other day how I clearing my mind was more like an exercise of willpower and how that didn't feel right, and my latest experiences seem to confirme that. When I managed to break through, I went into it with intent but then just sort of let go instead of continually pushing it as I had been doing so far. It was a totally "to hell with it" kind of atitude, just plunged right in. It's more the will "to be with" than the will "to be in control of it", if that makes any sense to you.
I know - easier said than done - I'm still struggling with it myself, but I think that's what did the trick.

(I wonder how much of a kick the pros here are getting from our theories... )

Thanks for the input, Sylph!

Yeah, I have used silicone earplugs a few times, but I had to come to the conclusion that they actually are pretty NOISY (who would have thought...). They might be good for keeping loud distant noise away, but they make really annoying rustling sounds everytime you move your head just a little bit. Thats why I basically gave up on earplugs, they totally overshadow those (very subtle and soft) internal sounds I am looking for.
LoL @ toilet paper, maybe I should give that a try next time.

Sitting against a wall might actually be a good idea, I will try that, but my feet will still hurt. I also have a pretty loose position with my legs, I dont cross them, but rather just have them lay in front of me with my feet barely touching. Still, after 25-30 minutes one of my feet always gets numb and starts to hurt, and it gets worse every minute. There is probably just not enough blood flowing after that amount of time.

Btw, do you use a timer to know when to end a session? Or do you just sit for a while and get up when you think you had enough? I am wondering if 'waiting' for the timer beep might be a bit counter-productive, since it is sort of "working" to a defined goal and waiting for something to happen. On the other hand, I dont want to make my sessions too short or open my eyes to look at a clock all the time.


I think I know what you mean by the last part. Sometimes you struggle for a while and then suddenly you get to a point where you feel pretty centered and no more random thoughts pop up ( or at least they die down very very quickly ). I guess prolonging that state is what it's all about. And the longer you can hold it, the deeper you get to that state. I imagine it like being an internal timer, that gets reset everytime useless thoughts pop up or you get otherwise distracted, and when you can hold it for a really long time, good things will happen (like the blissful feeling of bathing in light that Waving described).
But thats just another of those rookie theories

This morning I was finally able to have an LD and actually manage to sit down and meditate in it.

The dream started out in some kind of hotel or pension room. I was sitting on a bed at one side of the room looking at a second bed on the other side of the room. As I was looking at that bed, the sheets started moving slightly, as if something was under them, or growing beneath them. To be honest, normally I would have used this to make some hot girl appear under those sheets and getting it on with her (I usually dont have a lot of problems making things like that happen once I am stable within an LD, I just have to expect it and will it enough). Anyways, this time I was determined to fight the sexual demons and urges and go for the meditation instead. So I sat on my bed in my usual meditation posture, closed my eyes and tried to just be clear-minded. For a while (actually this lasted just a few seconds) I felt pretty calm and it was as if something was telling me that I had to learn to concentrate on several of my senses at the same time, so I tried concentrating on (closed eye-) sight and sound, then on sound and taste, always 2 senses at the exact same moment. The voice then told me that once I am able to focus on all 5 senses at the exact same time, I will have made it - whatever that means.
Shortly after that I awoke again, probably due to the lack of vision (and maybe a bit of negative expectation).

I dont know how serious to take all of this, and actually it wasn't really that impressive of an experience, but at least I finally got to a start and managed to at least sit down in my dream to meditate.

Btw, before I started to actually do the meditation, I found it pretty helpful to intently shut out thoughts to keep the lucid state. I just knew what my plan was and didnt have to think in words what to do next. Therefore I was also able to keep harmful thoughts like "Oh, I hope I dont mess it up again" or "I have to be very careful, or I will lose lucidity again" out as well. Actually I think that I could have had a pretty long LD if I hadn't sat down and closed my eyes. But I think it was worth it this time to go for the short experience.

Oh, good one! Keep listening to that voice, it seems like it knows its stuff.
If your lucids work like mine, you should find this easier to do next time since now you already have an idea of how to manage things. You'll probably slip into meditation a lot faster, have more time to experiment. *curious about what happens next*
Was it a WILD?

Originally Posted by lemmefly

Btw, do you use a timer to know when to end a session? Or do you just sit for a while and get up when you think you had enough? I am wondering if 'waiting' for the timer beep might be a bit counter-productive, since it is sort of "working" to a defined goal and waiting for something to happen.

I tried this once but it's pointless for me as I have to restart over and over before I can finally manage to settle down. Of course, I then feel tempted to keep checking on my internal clock...
I just try to ignore time and keep at it until I get somewhere or too fed up. You're right - having a time limit does hamper the process.

Originally Posted by Sylph

Was it a WILD?

No, actually it was some kind of in-betweener to be honest. I woke up at 9am after about 7 hours of sleep. Then I tried some meditating for about 20mins before laying back to sleep. As usual I tried to just stay aware looking for the 'tipping point' - that is a moment when I feel like I am falling over or somehow losing/shifting my sense of balance. From that point I know that I am very close to actually falling asleep, even though I might still feel pretty awake. I then usually try imagining rubbing my hand over a distinct surface like a carpet or a billard table. Sometimes this gets me to a WILD directly. However, this time I fell asleep after the tipping point, but when another dream started, I almost instantly noticed that I was dreaming and tried to stay calm (which worked pretty good this time).


About that voice (actually it wasn't a real voice, it was more like a feeling of "I should do this and that"), I am not so sure how much value to give it. It might just as well be my subconscious playing around with me giving me some random advice or something that I read in a book once. Also, I found it pretty hard to concentrate on just 2 senses at the absolute exact moment, 5 seems pretty much impossible.

I am not sure actually what to do next time I get lucid. Maybe I should just repeat the same process, or maybe try a meditation with open eyes ( although I read somewhere that looking at one exact point for an extended time when lucid will get you to wake up as well).

You'll probably know as soon you hit the dream.
As for the "voice" - yeah, I suppose it could turn out to be in the "DCs say the darndest things" category, but there's sometimes quite a bit of truth in what on the surface appears as a silly message. Dreams can be a bit cryptic.
Anyway, a "voice" coming to you beats chasing DCs around to ask them for advice.