Discuss the origins of Israel

[Invader]

I'll begin with this video. What do you think of this? Questions, comments, concerns? Rebuttals to the video?

[smoothcriminal1]

The Canaans are not the ancestors of today's Palestinians. Whoever created this video should note that we have NO evidence of an Israelite conquest of Israel, nor do we have any evidence of an Israel exile from Egypt. Most people actually think that the Israelites were descended from the Cannanites. Nobody actually knows where the Palestinians came from, so this portion of the video is wrong. Even if the Israelites did take the land from the Canaanites, we still have no proof that the Canaanites were the modern day Palestinians.

[Xei]

I don't find it particularly interesting. Bunch of tribes pulling bullshittery and writing bullshit about it AFAIK.

[nina]

To hell with Israel.

[HeavySleeper]

Can't watch the video right now. But anyway, I was very surprised when I first saw this picture. It seems like Israel is just trying to erase Palestine from the map.

[Xei]

I think it's pretty clear that the politicians have the simple attitude that the Palestinians are evil and Israel is supreme.

[stormcrow]

Im of Jewish blood so I wasn't sure if I wanted to contribute to this thread but I do want to make clear that I in no way support the ongoing Palestinian occupation. There are war crimes being committed daily against the Palestinians which is wrong no matter what race you are.

[dajo]

and then there is the lobby

[Xox]

The Israel-Palestine issue is the one issue I just don't quite know what to think about. What's your view on it Invade? Generally people speak out against the "Palestinian occupation," but what should/can be done?

[stormcrow]

I dont really know what can be done, Israel has been vehemently supported by the US since 67 so sanctions or any kind of diplomatic intervention are out of the question. There are numerous international organizations that (attempt) to give aid, food, water to Palestinians but its not very effective because what is left of Palestine is effectively cut off from the world. It is unfortunate that numerous religious groups claim Israel as their holy land, of course there is a political agenda but it is complimented by a religious backdrop.

[Invader]

Being a Jew has little to do with this except that Israel is falsely posing as a Jewish state. Israel is a Zionist state. The true Jewish Rabbis are opposed to the occupation. The Jewish populations of the Middle East have always maintained peaceful connections to their Muslim/other neighbors. Spoiler for A few examples: Even an interview on Fox News! Israel is an illegitimate country that is causing needless suffering to innocent human beings. The United States of America funds them. The international banks fund them (for reasons I hope are painfully clear). The US military would have to be pulled out, which will never happen because this so called democracy is heavily influenced by political lobbies, one of with it AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee). Nothing is going to happen through any of the legal channels. Money talks. What do? I don't know. Right now all I can do is not agree with it and not buy coffee from Starbucks. Pretty mediocre. All the while innocent people die from the conquest.

[Spartiate]

People are quick to put down Israel because they have fancier guns than Palestinians. If Israel wanted Palestine gone, they probably wouldn't have given the territory they gained back after three consecutive wars. Did you know that before the creation of the State of Palestine in 1988 (which isn't even universally recognized), there was never a country called "Palestine"? The region was always occupied by foreign powers. At the time of Israel's creation, the land belonged to Britain, so what is "Palestinian land"? The way I see it today, asking Israelis to leave is about as silly as asking Americans to leave the Americas. Most Israelis have been living there for generations, it is their home. Israel has some of the best human rights and democratic records in the Middle-East, I'm not sure why people are pushing so hard to have another backward sharia-run nation in the region...

[Alric]

That isn't true. Israel always has a ton of UN resolutions condemning them for their horrible human rights violations. They are a rogue nation, and are worse than even countries like Iran or North Korea. They are also one of the few countries with nuclear weapons who refused to sign Non-Proliferation of nuclear weapons treaty, which puts them in the same position as Pakistan. Also saying they lived their for generations is bullshit. Some areas they lived in for less than 20 years, some they are moving into as we speak. You seem to forget that they are constantly expanding their boarders into their neighbors lands and taking it over. They are still illegally occupying lands that don't belong to them, and even to this day they are running people out of their homes. You can not ignore that Israel is one of the biggest destabilizing effects in the region, and this isn't me saying it, it is the UN that is nearly constantly criticizing Israel for their actions.

[Spartiate]

That isn't true. Israel always has a ton of UN resolutions condemning them for their horrible human rights violations Israel has been quite compliant with the UN, probably why it hasn't annexed its neighbors already. This is what Israel looked like at the end of the Yom Kippur War: Spoiler for Israeli Territories: How many countries do you know that give back the territories they've conquered to their enemies? How many public stonings or beheadings do you see in Israel? Hell they've only officially executed one person, ever. How are women's rights there, LGBT rights? Israel ranked 15th last year in the Human Development Index. That's higher than many European countries and 17 positions higher than the next Middle-Eastern country, the UAE. Don't confuse the human rights situation in Israeli occupied territories with that of Israel proper. One should not expect great standards of living in a war zone. They are a rogue nation, and are worse than even countries like Iran or North Korea. I'm sure that given the opportunity, you would rather live in North Korea or Iran over Israel . Better get started on that visa application... They are also one of the few countries with nuclear weapons who refused to sign Non-Proliferation of nuclear weapons treaty, which puts them in the same position as Pakistan. They still have many thousands of nukes less than the US or Russia, plus how many times have they used them? It's not like they haven't had the opportunity... There's a going theory that the reason the Syrians retreated out of the blue at the beginning of the Yom Kippur War was because Israel threatened to use nukes. Nukes are a deterrent. Also saying they lived their for generations is bullshit. Some areas they lived in for less than 20 years, some they are moving into as we speak. You seem to forget that they are constantly expanding their boarders into their neighbors lands and taking it over. They are still illegally occupying lands that don't belong to them, and even to this day they are running people out of their homes. Israel is the size of a shoe, most Israelis can trace their origins in the country to the 1930s, that's three generations. "Illegal occupation", gimme a break... Since when do wars take place in the courtroom? Are the Western occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq illegal as well? There are some issues of illegal housing in occupied territories that I do not support, but that is only because some Israelis are not respecting their own agreement with the Palestinians. Unfortunately some zionists are nutty and think of the place as their promised land, so they ignore any "man-made" laws. You can not ignore that Israel is one of the biggest destabilizing effects in the region, and this isn't me saying it, it is the UN that is nearly constantly criticizing Israel for their actions. That's what you get for having a different country in the most religiously fervent region in the world.

[Alric]

In general people have stopped conquering countries and it has been that way for some time, especially since WW2. While there are still cases where countries did conquer countries and take their land, they have taking heavy criticism from the global community. Just look at the Iraq invasion, we took over the land and then we gave it back, we didn't send people over there to settle the country. In back in WW2 we didn't keep all the land we could of when we won the war, and Russia took a lot of flak for the stuff they did. So it really should be no surprise that so many are upset with Israel, as they are going against the popular current of taking over land being wrong. And of course it doesn't help that they are being so cruel about it as well. I will admit that in the main country they are nice to their people but they have a horrible record for human rights in the other occupied territory, and you can't discount this. As you said they are not living up to the agreements they made, and that is causing a lot of the problems. If they made the effort, they probably could end a lot of violence over there, but they don't seem interested in that.

[Spartiate]

It should be noted that the armed conflict was started by the Arab side. They took a gamble to get rid of Israel and they lost big time. For some reason (probably international pressure), Israel decided to allow its enemies to keep living within its borders. Now that they can't win through military means, they try and make legal and humanitarian appeals. That's like if Germany or Japan bitched about being occupied after WW2. The only reason people give a damn today is because of the extreme asymmetry between Israeli and Palestinian/Arab forces. If it was just two poor countries duking it out, nobody would care... I personally think that the general state of human rights and popular dissatisfaction in the Middle-East as a whole is of much greater concern than the Israel issue.

[Alric]

The difference is we didn't kick everyone out of Germany and tell them to go some where else. If it was just land it wouldn't be a big deal but all the homeless refuges who lost their homes are the bigger issue.