ABORTION: Where do you stand?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Oh! Okay, it all makes sense now. If a victim cares about its own life in a concious, human manner! Okay, so how about mentally retarded people, who have no family who wants to care for them and no friends who value them, and who also are not mentally advanced enough to understand that they want their own lives?

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Shoot on sight. If nobody wants them and their intelligence is restricted beyond that of a 1 year old, I think the fact they are still alive is an act of negligence.

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Or what about elderly people with dementia, who don't have family or friends and who can't even remember their own names?

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This is different. These people have left a substantial mark on the world. They have mattered to a lot of people. If they want to die, sure, kill them. I'm all for euthenasia too.

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What about all of the people who have no one, and who are depressed and hate their lives? Should we kill all of those people?

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I like euthenasia, under circumstances. If the person in question is simply going through a depression and it can be proven that they will eventually leave this state and enjoy life again, then killing them is murder. However, I can't think of any person in this state who wouldn't have somebody who loves them. Note that I mean "love them for who they are", not "love them because they are life".

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Also, arguably, people could want alot of fucking things. That is completely irrelevant.

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No it isn't. There is nearly no difference between a wasted egg that could've been fertilised, and an actual fertilised egg.

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Furthermore, I DO expect a woman to carry a child a give birth to it simply because a person wants it.

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Haha oh wow. You're insane :D
Can't argue with insane people though, so I guess the argument ends here.

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Just like I do expect that if you walk down the street and see a homeless person dying in the middle of the street you will help them. I don't care if your life is inconvienced, I don't care if you don't WANT to do it. There are some things people should do, simply because it is right.

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I expect you to abort your fetuses if I want you to. Just like I expect that if you turn on your computer, you don't go on the internet and browse for child pornography. There are some things people should do, simply beause it is right.

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Originally Posted by no-Name

hoo boy this thread is moving fast

FORCING another human to do something as strenuous and debilitating as giving birth is pretty high on my list of things to be taken as seriously bad. like, objectively bad. I would compare it to rape, in some ways.

I'm outa here

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LOL, I gave birth to a 10lb. baby with no pain killers, and while strenuous, it was certainly not "debilitating". Don't over dramatize things. :roll: Furthermore, I didn't say we should "FORCE" anything on anyone. I have never once said that we should make abortion illegal. Infact, it would be pretty pointless at this stage in the game.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, most people that I've met have the opinion that we should not just kill humans because they don't have a great chance at life. But if that's not your opinion, I'm interested in knowing why.

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Nice of you to slip in "humans" as if a 20-week-old fetus is the same as a grown person.

Although Roxxor's wording is horrendous and is deserving of a 2 year ban, he is absolutely right. There's no actual reasoning behind why human interaction is unnatural. Why is it considered unnatural for a human to get rid of the fetus inside of them by killing it and sucking it out, but natural if they press it out through their vagina, alive?

What he's really getting at, is that "natural" and "unnatural" are completely meaningless words under nearly all circumstances, and you should think very deeply before you choose to use them.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

Shoot on sight. If nobody wants them and their intelligence is restricted beyond that of a 1 year old, I think the fact they are still alive is an act of negligence.



This is different. These people have left a substantial mark on the world. They have mattered to a lot of people. If they want to die, sure, kill them. I'm all for euthenasia too.



I like euthenasia, under circumstances. If the person in question is simply going through a depression and it can be proven that they will eventually leave this state and enjoy life again, then killing them is murder. However, I can't think of any person in this state who wouldn't have somebody who loves them. Note that I mean "love them for who they are", not "love them because they are life".



No it isn't. There is nearly no difference between a wasted egg that could've been fertilised, and an actual fertilised egg.



Haha oh wow. You're insane :D
Can't argue with insane people though, so I guess the argument ends here.



I expect you to abort your fetuses if I want you to. Just like I expect that if you turn on your computer, you don't go on the internet and browse for child pornography. There are some things people should do, simply beause it is right.

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That's cool. Your opinion is not anything new. Prisons are full of selfish people who do not value life, so you're in great company.

You think I'm insane? That's actually kind of cool, I like it. :lol: I think you are exactly like every other selfish person I've met. Also, I'm not sure what your point was about the child porn thing, you kind of lost me there.

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Nice of you to slip in "humans" as if a 20-week-old fetus is the same as a grown person.

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Well, I guess that's kind of what I'm curious about. What makes us "human"? Our age? Our mental development? Our organs functioning sufficiently to support life un-aided? Do we have souls? If so, when do they start inhabiting our physical form? Why, exactly, is it wrong to kill someone?

I'm interested in your answers to all of those questions. :)

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

That's cool. Your opinion is not anything new. Prisons are full of selfish people who do not value life, so you're in great company.

You think I'm insane? That's actually kind of cool, I like it. :lol: I think you are exactly like every other selfish person I've met. Also, I'm not sure what your point was about the child porn thing, you kind of lost me there.

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How am I selfish? Most of the stuff I've posted in this thread actually points towards me caring very much for the state of our planet and humanity as a whole.

If you mean the last part of my post, I was trying to highlight how your analogy between fetuses and dying people on the street doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

Although Roxxor's wording is horrendous and is deserving of a 2 year ban, he is absolutely right. There's no actual reasoning behind why human interaction is unnatural. Why is it considered unnatural for a human to get rid of the fetus inside of them by killing it and sucking it out, but natural if they press it out through their vagina, alive?

What he's really getting at, is that "natural" and "unnatural" are completely meaningless words under nearly all circumstances, and you should think very deeply before you choose to use them.

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Yep, alot of words can be meaningless. The word "Life" is ultimately meaningless, if you're of a certain mindset. I'm am not here to debate meanings of words with anyone. Sorry. I find it tedious and ultimately pointless. I would however, love to get back to the original topic.

I think that woman should be able to do as they please, but if it happened to me I don't think I'd be able to get rid of the child. But I will not judge a woman for having an abortion, it's her body and it's her choice to bring a child into a world.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, I guess that's kind of what I'm curious about. What makes us "human"? Our age? Our mental development? Our organs functioning sufficiently to support life un-aided? Do we have souls? If so, when do they start inhabiting our physical form? Why, exactly, is it wrong to kill someone?

I'm interested in your answers to all of those questions. :)

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I kind of answered that previously...

Personal interaction with others and life experiences are what define a person.

Even the most unloved, forgotten hobo has a lifetime of experiences that give him worth.

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Originally Posted by Marvo

How am I selfish? Most of the stuff I've posted in this thread actually points towards me caring very much for the state of our planet and humanity as a whole.

If you mean the last part of my post, I was trying to highlight how your analogy between fetuses and dying people on the street doesn't work.

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You are selfish because you believe you can do what you want to a fetus, simply because it does not have the ability to tell you NO. You are selfish because you believe, like many others, that YOUR life is somehow more valuable that that of your unborn child. You know nothing. You could die tomorrow and have absolutely no impact on the world, but your kid could grow up to be someone who cures cancer. You don't know what you are killing when you have an abortion, you don't know who you are impacting by refusing to give of yourself so that someone else can live.

And how is it any different, if I refuse to help someone who is dying because I don't want to, or if I refuse to give birth because I don't want to? If life is invaluable, life is invaluable. A homeless man is doing nothing but using my tax dollars, and if I stop to help him, my whole day could be negatively impacted. Therefore, I shouldn't have to. Right?

I Choosed "I have no children, and I am Pro-Choice. "
I just dont like letting my/a woman aborting a life for no reasons .
u got it u should continue living , although u will have a baby one day in ur life , thats same thing now or later.

Sry for my bad english .
peace to the humans.


KarLi ;)

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

I kind of answered that previously...

Personal interaction with others and life experiences are what define a person.

Even the most unloved, forgotten hobo has a lifetime of experiences that give him worth.

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Really? But what about, for instance, children who were born with horrible birth defects and as a result live their entire life in a home and never have a useful, worthwhile interaction or conversation with anyone? Are they not a person? Do they deserve to die at the whim of someone else because they are not valued?

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Originally Posted by DeadDollKitty

I think that woman should be able to do as they please, but if it happened to me I don't think I'd be able to get rid of the child. But I will not judge a woman for having an abortion, it's her body and it's her choice to bring a child into a world.

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How is it her choice? If a fetus had a way of voicing it's desire to survive (which is in basically every life form, no matter how primitive), would it stop being her choice?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

How is it her choice? If a fetus had a way of voicing it's desire to survive (which is in basically every life form, no matter how primitive), would it stop being her choice?

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Um. Yes?

That's kind of the point. A fetus isn't a person, it is a fetus. They don't even have brains until the third trimester. They are a part of the woman they are growing inside of, and it is up to her as to whether or not she want to give birth to it.

I Still think , why abort it incase u can let it born and maybe give it away to a clinic or something, than not letting a new life a new human to be born. [i would not give it away anyways if it was mine*]


karli

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Really? But what about, for instance, children who were born with horrible birth defects and as a result live their entire life in a home and never have a useful, worthwhile interaction or conversation with anyone? Are they not a person? Do they deserve to die at the whim of someone else because they are not valued?

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A crappy experience is still an experience. A fetus literally has no experience whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by A Roxxor

Um. Yes?

That's kind of the point. A fetus isn't a person, it is a fetus. They don't even have brains until the third trimester. They are a part of the woman they are growing inside of, and it is up to her as to whether or not she wants to give birth to them.

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At no point is a fetus medically considered an actual part of the woman they are growing in. Get it straight.

So, you're telling me that simply because a fetus lacks working vocal chords to say "No don't kill me", it doesn't have rights? What about people born mentally retarded who cannot communicate? Should doctors just cut them apart and throw them in the garbage?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, I guess that's kind of what I'm curious about. What makes us "human"? Our age? Our mental development? Our organs functioning sufficiently to support life un-aided? Do we have souls? If so, when do they start inhabiting our physical form? Why, exactly, is it wrong to kill someone?

I'm interested in your answers to all of those questions. :)

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My point was that aborting a 20-week-old fetus is not the same as killing a grown person. Given that only 30% of fetuses survive at 23 weeks of age outside the womb (we can expect that the number is lower for 20 weeks), I wouldn't be surprised nor would I blame a mother if she decided to abort the fetus.

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Originally Posted by Spartiate

A crappy experience is still an experience. A fetus literally has no experience whatsoever.

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But what if I disagree with you? What if I think that all those people are doing is using my tax dollars and being miserable, useless lumps of flesh? I should still get to kill them, right? Because to ME, they're not people. And I'm what matters.

See, you get into very murky waters when you start having to define what makes a valid human "experience". It sounds a bit like you're making it up as you go along.

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

My point was that aborting a 20-week-old fetus is not the same as killing a grown person. Given that only 30% of fetuses survive at 23 weeks of age outside the womb (we can expect that the number is lower for 20 weeks), I wouldn't be surprised nor would I blame a mother if she decided to abort the fetus.

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Ok, I understand you're opinion on that particular part...but I'm still interested in the answers to the questions I asked you.

He's not making anything up. A fetus literally does not have the ability to even have experiences. By extension, it has no experiences.

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Originally Posted by Karlitaki

I Still think , why abort it incase u can let it born and maybe give it away to a clinic or something, than not letting a new life a new human to be born. [i would not give it away anyways it was mine*]


karli

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Exactly. There is ALWAYS a better choice. :)

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

He's not making anything up. A fetus literally does not have the ability to even have experiences. By extension, it has no experiences.

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What makes an "experience"? This is a pretty broad term you're throwing around. A fetus has the ability to have experiences within it's limited environment. It cries, it hiccups, it practices breathing, it has emotion and thought, it's heart beats, it's limbs move, it's cells multiply. Those are all experiences that make us human. Just because it cannot literally talk to you and have a conversation does not mean it's not life and not to be valued. Many people cannot talk to you or have any kind of intelligent interaction. Infact, many people have the existence of a fetus really; being cared for, basic bodily functions, base emotions. But we cannot chop those people up and throw them away, can we?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

What makes an "experience"? This is a pretty broad term you're throwing around. A fetus has the ability to have experiences within it's limited environment. It cries, it hiccups, it practices breathing, it has emotion and thought, it's heart beats, it's limbs move, it's cells multiply. Those are all experiences that make us human. Just because it cannot literally talk to you and have a conversation does not mean it's not life and not to be valued. Many people cannot talk to you or have any kind of intelligent interaction. Infact, many people have the existence of a fetus really; being cared for, basic bodily functions, base emotions. But we cannot chop those people up and throw them away, can we?

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I thought you weren't here to debate the meanings of words...

All of the things you listed are subconscious actions, except for emotion and thought, and thus don't matter. The fetus has no control over those. Regarding emotion and thought, I would like to see some sources showing that fetuses possess such attributes.