ABORTION: Where do you stand?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, as far as I can tell, animals don't have souls, but I'm honestly open to the idea. But btw, I've been a vegetarian for the last 10 years. Saying I ate chicken for dinner was not a literal example...actually I have yet to eat dinner at all. :(

Plants don't have brains. Lets not argue about them please. :roll:

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Humans are animals.

In b4 Ne-yo.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Exactly, it's MY opinion. Basically everyone you run across will have a reason they are better than you, and who is to say they are wrong? How in the hell are we supposed to classify how valuable people are, we have no unbiased opinions. This brings us back to life needing to be valued simply because it is life.

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I don't think so. If a person has a desire to live, they have assigned their own lives value and meaning. If a person has lost that desire, their lives can still have meaning based on the people they interact with. This is why suicide is frowned upon...it impacts the lives of the people the person knows. Let's go to an extreme...let's say there's an old hermit. nobody knows him. Nobody is aware he's alive. If he dies, nobody will care, including himself. In fact, he wants to die. Are you going to deny him that? Does it do any harm? Is his action immoral, just because he's choosing to end a life? Are you protecting life for the sake of life, or for the value it carries?

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Well, actually, the central foundation of my argument is that people need to look beyond their own selfish wants and have compassion for other people. If you can't prove or aren't sure (which I am not) when life truly begins, err on the side of compassion. But, whatever.

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I value freedom over compassion. The freedom of women to not be forced to carry unwanted fetuses to term.

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Nope. You haven't. You are a useless being. You were created out of random events with no love or purpose. So was everyone else. Your brain has evolved enough to develop emotions, and those emotions tell you that you WANT a purpose, a value. But you cannot simply give yourself, or anyone else, a purpose just because you want it. Sorry. :)

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Sure I can. My purpose is to become a pharmacist, live well, be happy, and enjoy life. You can't assert that otherwise. My purpose is my decision. I have the capacity to feel love, compassion, and the full spectrum of emotion. My life has value because I and those around me declare it so. Deal with it.

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Yeah yeah. Blah blah. Guess what, you don't have a soul, and I don't think you're as valuable as me...so I can kill you if I want, and then I don't have to listen to you repeat the same inane babble over and over. :lol:

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Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the future Hitler. This isn't even relevant. This is a hollow threat that completely fails to address my point, instead defaulting back onto your assertion that souls must exist. Your argument goes something like this:
-why do souls exist?
-because life has meaning
-why does life have meaning?
-because souls exist
-why do souls exist?
.... and so on. You accuse others of using the very circular reasoning you yourself are guilty of. You have absolutely nothing to substantiate your claim that souls exist, and therefore, all arguments pertaining to souls and the existence thereof are null and void. Your position is compromised, your premise shattered, and yet you will cling to them.

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Humans are animals.

In b4 Ne-yo.

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That's fine if you think that. In any case, I love animals, don't eat them, and try my best to care for any that need it. :)

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

This thread is bordering on the ridiculous.

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Bordering???

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

That's fine if you think that. In any case, I love animals, don't eat them, and try my best to care for any that need it. :)

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Not only do I think it, I know it. It's a fact. BTW I posted on the last page if you missed it.

Beliefwatch: Pro-life Atheists - Newsweek

This is an article talking mostly about Christopher Hitchens views on it. He's a somewhat well known atheist, and although he's not in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade, he considers himself to personally be pro-life. Not a lot of facts or anything here, it's mostly just opinions, but it's nice to see that there are some non-religious pro-life people out there too.

Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League Homepage

This is a site of the AAPL(Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League); they come at the issue of abortion from a secular humanist point of view.



The abortion debate - Carl Sagan

And this is that link again to an article by Carl Sagan and his wife. He's pro-choice up to a point, but provides very good (secular and logical) arguments that there needs to be a line drawn somewhere, and that there shouldn't be abortions after that point. He may be pro choice early on but it's going to be hard to find a very compelling secular argument for being pro-life from conception (aside from coming at it from a humanist perspective like the AAPL)

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Originally Posted by Mario92

I don't think so. If a person has a desire to live, they have assigned their own lives value and meaning. If a person has lost that desire, their lives can still have meaning based on the people they interact with. This is why suicide is frowned upon...it impacts the lives of the people the person knows. Let's go to an extreme...let's say there's an old hermit. nobody knows him. Nobody is aware he's alive. If he dies, nobody will care, including himself. In fact, he wants to die. Are you going to deny him that? Does it do any harm? Is his action immoral, just because he's choosing to end a life? Are you protecting life for the sake of life, or for the value it carries?

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People are suicidal mostly because they don't want to deal with the pain of life anymore, not because they do not desire life anymore. They do desire life, just not the circumstances they are in. Everyone desires life, it is innate. All life should be protected if it can be. That's pretty much all I have to say about that.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

I value freedom over compassion. The freedom of women to not be forced to carry unwanted fetuses to term.

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I understand that. There are many people like you who do not value compassion. Prisons are filled with them. You are not unique.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Sure I can. My purpose is to become a pharmacist, live well, be happy, and enjoy life. You can't assert that otherwise. My purpose is my decision. I have the capacity to feel love, compassion, and the full spectrum of emotion. My life has value because I and those around me declare it so. Deal with it.

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That's wonderful, I hope you do enjoy it. You do have a purpose and value, at least in my eyes. But if we're going with your theory, you really don't. Being a pharmacist is pointless, anyone you help is just as useless as you are. You can declare anything you want, it does not make it true. You were made from random acts, you have no greater purpose, and you will die that way.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Ladies and gentlemen, I give you the future Hitler. This isn't even relevant. This is a hollow threat that completely fails to address my point, instead defaulting back onto your assertion that souls must exist. Your argument goes something like this:
-why do souls exist?
-because life has meaning
-why does life have meaning?
-because souls exist
-why do souls exist?
.... and so on. You accuse others of using the very circular reasoning you yourself are guilty of. You have absolutely nothing to substantiate your claim that souls exist, and therefore, all arguments pertaining to souls and the existence thereof are null and void. Your position is compromised, your premise shattered, and yet you will cling to them.

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I'm not really going to kill you...You know that, right? :lol: Although I consider you calling me "the next Hitler" abusive and unneeded, I'll let it go. Maybe you should relax a little though.

Why do souls exist?
Because the Creator made them.
Why does life have meaning?
Because the Creator made us to give Him glory. That is life's ultimate meaning.

Now, that comes from my own spiritual standpoint, which you disagree with. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

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Originally Posted by COLnop

Beliefwatch: Pro-life Atheists - Newsweek

This is an article talking mostly about Christopher Hitchens views on it. He's a somewhat well known atheist, and although he's not in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade, he considers himself to personally be pro-life. Not a lot of facts or anything here, it's mostly just opinions, but it's nice to see that there are some non-religious pro-life people out there too.

Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League Homepage

This is a site of the AAPL(Atheist and Agnostic Pro-Life League); they come at the issue of abortion from a secular humanist point of view.



The abortion debate - Carl Sagan

And this is that link again to an article by Carl Sagan and his wife. He's pro-choice up to a point, but provides very good (secular and logical) arguments that there needs to be a line drawn somewhere, and that there shouldn't be abortions after that point. He may be pro choice early on but it's going to be hard to find a very compelling secular argument for being pro-life from conception (aside from coming at it from a humanist perspective like the AAPL)

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Thank you! When I get a little free time, I am definitely going to read those. :)

:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Not only do I think it, I know it. It's a fact. BTW I posted on the last page if you missed it.

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Ok. :)

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

People are suicidal mostly because they don't want to deal with the pain of life anymore, not because they do not desire life anymore. They do desire life, just not the circumstances they are in. Everyone desires life, it is innate. All life should be protected if it can be. That's pretty much all I have to say about that.

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I'm not so sure. Some cases, sure, but not all. There are those with total indifference toward life, too.

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I understand that. There are many people like you who do not value compassion. Prisons are filled with them. You are not unique.

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Hah, cute.

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That's wonderful, I hope you do enjoy it. You do have a purpose and value, at least in my eyes. But if we're going with your theory, you really don't. Being a pharmacist is pointless, anyone you help is just as useless as you are. You can declare anything you want, it does not make it true. You were made from random acts, you have no greater purpose, and you will die that way.

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If I can give people an additional ten years of happiness and joy and pleasure, and that in turn brings me happiness, who are you to say that counts for nothing? Who cares about the final destination? Enjoy the journey while you can. Have fun those extra ten years. You only go around once.

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I'm not really going to kill you...You know that, right? :lol: Although I consider you calling me "the next Hitler" abusive and unneeded, I'll let it go. Maybe you should relax a little though.

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Not sure if trolling now. But what you said was essentially Hitler's beliefs: "I am superior, you are inferior, you are worthless and must die"

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Why do souls exist?
Because the Creator made them.
Why does life have meaning?
Because the Creator made us to give Him glory. That is life's ultimate meaning.

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Shelve the damn creators a moment and try to take this debate seriously, please.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

That's wonderful, I hope you do enjoy it. You do have a purpose and value, at least in my eyes. But if we're going with your theory, you really don't. Being a pharmacist is pointless, anyone you help is just as useless as you are. You can declare anything you want, it does not make it true. You were made from random acts, you have no greater purpose, and you will die that way.

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You seem a bit confused. 'Purpose' is a human concept, so I see no reason why Mario would need a soul to have one, or why he couldn't define one for himself?

Apparently you don't, either, because you have so far failed to explain what these divine purposes are that we are each issued with our souls at conception/birth, why they are important, and how you can be so sure that animals do not have them, while just as sure that zygotes do.

:microwave:

LOL! Sorry. I know I'm not ACTUALLY contributing. But sometimes the smilies are the best way to express one's thoughts. I'll stop.

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Originally Posted by A Roxxor

You seem a bit confused. 'Purpose' is a human concept, so I see no reason why Mario would need a soul to have one, or why he couldn't define one for himself?

Apparently you don't, either, because you have so far failed to explain what these divine purposes are that we are each issued with our souls at conception/birth, why they are important, and how you can be so sure that animals do not have them, while just as sure that zygotes do.

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Purpose is a human concept? How so? Please, elaborate on your view.

I'm open to the idea of animals having souls, as I've said before.

Our "divine purpose" is to please the Creator. You will probably disagree. That's okay, I'm not interested in trying to convince you of anything.

It doesn't matter if you're not trying to convince anyone. It's part of your argument, so don't be shocked if someone challenges it.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Purpose is a human concept? How so? Please, elaborate on your view.

I'm open to the idea of animals having souls, as I've said before.

Our "divine purpose" is to please the Creator. You will probably disagree. That's okay, I'm not interested in trying to convince you of anything.

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Okay. The creatures that basically invented words, complex language, concepts, ideas..? Those were humans. Purpose is an idea/concept that conscious intent behind the existence or creation of objects is for them to perform certain functions. Even if there were a God, and he were responsible for the existence of humans, what exactly would its purpose for humans be? How does that translate into living things which exist because of their will to survive? You have not explained this at all, and instead have merely asserted that 'people have purposes' granted by their 'souls' which originates from a god.

Where do you come about all of this knowledge of your god, and how do you know what its intentions are? Considering there absurdly slim chance that this god even exists I doubt you've ever communicated with it- so again, how can you be sure of any of your assertions other than they are those beliefs that you are most comfortable with?

If you aren't here to defend your assertions, then you aren't here to debate, you're here to preach. Please feel free to gtfo at any time, in that case.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

I'm not so sure. Some cases, sure, but not all. There are those with total indifference toward life, too.

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Give every suicidal person a million dollars and someone who loves them. See how many of them kill themselves. It's not actual life they don't want, everyone has a survival instinct, it's emotional pain they do not want.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Hah, cute.

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Thanks! But...really, it's true.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

If I can give people an additional ten years of happiness and joy and pleasure, and that in turn brings me happiness, who are you to say that counts for nothing? Who cares about the final destination? Enjoy the journey while you can. Have fun those extra ten years. You only go around once.

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LOL, die tomorrow or in 10 years. It doesn't matter. You were created with no purpose and will die with no purpose.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Not sure if trolling now. But what you said was essentially Hitler's beliefs: "I am superior, you are inferior, you are worthless and must die"

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Those are not my beliefs. Those are probably as far from my beliefs as possible. They are yours, you just don't want to cop to them.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Shelve the damn creators a moment and try to take this debate seriously, please.

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I am taking this very seriously.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Give every suicidal person a million dollars and someone who loves them. See how many of them kill themselves. It's not actual life they don't want, everyone has a survival instinct, it's emotional pain they do not want.

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Speaking from experience, I've entertained the notion of suicide, not as a means of escape, but merely out of curiosity. Passive interest in what lies beyond, if anything. I don't fear death, but nor do I seek it out. Being dead has a tendency to ruin your entire week and hurt those you love. I can wait for death. It'll find me soon enough.

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Thanks! But...really, it's true.

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Of course it is. You've convinced yourself of it. And in doing so, have equated me with hardened criminals. I simply value freedom over compassion. Nothing wrong with that. Hell, there are thousands that go to war every day to defend freedom. People who will kill for it. We call them soldiers and veterans.

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LOL, die tomorrow or in 10 years. It doesn't matter. You were created with no purpose and will die with no purpose.

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I have a purpose. You choose not to accept it. I will fulfill my purpose and live happily while I do so. Strange, you discount all of life's experiences save for purpose. Anything that has no purpose is meaningless in your eyes. You don't consider the capacities for love or emotion or happiness...only purpose. I am a human being. My purpose is happiness. Accept it or don't. I've made my decision. Now make yours.

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I am taking this very seriously.

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It's a farce. You either don't know two bollocks about debating, or you don't particularly care.

Guys... guys... guys...

This is getting way out of hand. Just calm down and let's all take a refreshing read to our Community's rules!

This thread is very active and this is a topic that can be discussed with better manners. If this keeps going this way, I will lock the thread. So just take a few deep breaths before posting!

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by PercyLucid

Guys... guys... guys...

This is getting way out of hand. Just calm down and let's all take a refreshing read to our Community's rules!

This thread is very active and this is a topic that can be discussed with better manners. If this keeps going this way, I will lock the thread. So just take a few deep breaths before posting!

Thanks!

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Maybe you should tell buriedmonsters to chill with the "your life has no meaning/you might as well kill yourself" idiocy. That's probably what's causing all of the tension.

I think it's because of what PercyLucid said, about the lack of manners. They aren't just for adults.

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Originally Posted by BLUELINE976

Maybe you should tell buriedmonsters to chill with the "your life has no meaning/you might as well kill yourself" idiocy. That's probably what's causing all of the tension.

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Maybe I should tell you have a warning if you keep adding tension. This goes to everybody. So please, respect other user's believes.

Thanks!

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Originally Posted by Mario92

better idea: you prove they were anything else.
False memory - Wikipedia
Occam's razor. False memories are common and well understood. Having a memory of an event before you have a central nervous system is quite ridiculous. Burden of proof and whatnot.

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I merely claimed that I had memories of being in the womb, so the central nervous system would have developed at that point. Scientists have confirmed that fetuses develop short term memories at 30 weeks, and long term memories at 34 weeks. They will also open their eyes and respond to light at around 30 weeks...which specifically corresponds to one of my memories.

I recovered these memories using the same method to recover several memories from being an infant/toddler that I have been able to confirm their validity with my mother. Taking that into consideration, and applying Occam's razor, I have absolutely no reason to believe the womb memories would be false.

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Originally Posted by Mario92

Occam's razor. False memories are common and well understood. Having a memory of an event before you have a central nervous system is quite ridiculous. Burden of proof and whatnot.

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The CNS doesn't appear until the second you're born?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Guess what, I can give "meaning and purpose" to a pile of cow shit, that doesn't mean it actually has meaning.

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Actually, that's exactly what it means. Meaning and purpose are human projections, not inherent qualities of things.

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Well, different people will give you different answers on that. Personally, I believe my soul was made by the Creator, and my whole purpose is to please Him and bring Him glory. That includes my life here on earth, and I think the only one who should end my earthly life is the Creator. That's what gives me purpose. Other people don't agree with that, and that's cool. I just find it a little silly to say that we are literally just monkeys with better vocabularies.

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So your only value lies in the fact that you are a slave to a master who created you to serve him? And you have the audacity to tell people who are free but without a sould that they are worthless? Despite the fact that they and others may value them and that they may value themselves?

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Originally Posted by buriedmonsters

Some things cannot be physically proven. Sorry, you will not be able to explain everything in life with the limited intelligence that humans posess. Prove to me that I don't have a soul. You can't. It's a difference of opinion, and it's okay to disagree.

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Prove to me that it's impossible to prove that you have a soul.