DMT (dimethyltryptamine) v. Lucid Dreaming

[Universal Mind]

I am trying to get recreational drugs completely out of my life for good and focus on becoming a lucid dreaming master guru. I have done everything for the last time, except I want to have one last go at it with mushrooms and salvia divinorum, and I am contemplating doing DMT once in my life before I send it all down the river. DMT is a drug I don't recommend to anybody, possibly even myself. I have never done it, but I have researched it backwards and forwards. It is the strongest hallucinogenic drug known to mankind. It spins consciousness into all kinds of loops, turns the universe upside down, crosses the senses and common mental understandings of reality, puts you in a new dimension, and makes you see crazy aliens, snakes, elves, demons, and other stuff, which in many cases with haunt you and physically torment you. It can be absolutely horrifying to the point of staying horrified out of your mind long after you do it, but it can also reveal what appear to be the answers to the universe. Pretty much all reports involve some level of sheer terror. What I am trying to do here is get somebody to talk me out of doing it by convincing me that lucid dreaming can do everything DMT can do and more, without the threat of experiencing Hellish mental states that can cause post traumatic stress on an indescribable level for days, weeks, or longer. I don't want to go the rest of my life contemplating doing it. I want to either get it over with or feel comfort in knowing that lucid dreaming has the potential of covering all possible areas of DMT mind expansion and metaphysical education. In short, have any of you ever done DMT, and is it anything more than a drug induced lucid dream?

[plobable]

dude stay away from that shit dmt some peoples had that around here years ago and like 6 people died along the railroad tracks... ugly day...

[nina]

Hey...don't even think about doing that shit. I've done all kinds of shit and honestly nothing compares to a really great lucid dream. Besides...the whole LDing experience can be EXTREMELY trippy. During a wake induced lucid dream you will experience hypnogogic hallucinations and sounds, swirling images, some of the most beautiful and strange things...intense hallucinations. And lucid dreaming? Don't even get me started!!!! I have done so much in my LDs I never even thought I could ever do, and I have learned so much about myself. You don't need to take some drug to escape reality. Just hop under your covers and let your mind take you for a ride. Seriously. If you have any questions let me know. -nina

[YULAW]

yeah seriously Drugs is never the answer for a real good time. You can have a trippy Lucid dream created just the way you want it.. This is the beauty of Lucid dreaming because the extent and concept of the dream is limited only by ones imagination.

[evolo]

I have done my fair share of drugs but am currently drug free and plan to stay that way for awhile. But I have always considered doing DMT and mescaline when I feel I am ready for them. From what I have read and heard, they can open doors to new realities and unlock answers. On the other hand, lucid dreaming can also take you to the corners of the universe, safely. The difference though, is that dreaming is travelled in the subsoncious, and with drugs, you travel in a conscious state. If you do both, I feel, then you can collaborate the knowledge and get a better grasp on things. Natural drugs are a very controversial subject for me. Sometimes I think it's best to think in a sober mind. But if these drugs are organic here, isn't there a reason for it? I mean, most of you say you're anti-drug and try to enforce it, but have you ever read the Doors of Perception by Huxley? Enlightening at the very least.

[nina]

Originally posted by evolo The difference though, is that dreaming is travelled in the subsoncious, and with drugs, you travel in a conscious state. I disagree with this. When you are lucid you ARE conscious. You are EXTREMELY conscious, to the point where at times the lucid dream feels even more real than reality. What's the difference between a hallucination and a lucid dream? If anything, I would say that you are MUCH MORE conscious and in control when you are dreaming. Either way...when you wake up or come down from a high...its still just a memory. So what's the point in risking it? Really?

[evolo]

Well what I meant is that when you dream you only travel with your mind. A lot of mental and physical abilities(?) are cut off. When on drugs, you experience alter realities in the physical world as well as the mental. There is knowledge to be gained from combining the two. So what's the point in risking it? Really?[/b] I'd risk a helluva lot to understand why I'm here. Answers are out there and venturing down multiple paths might help find them.

[AirRick101]

The only drugs I've had experience with is a psychiatric kind. They altered my dreaming abilities a bit. Otherwise, I dunno much about drugs. I had a patient-mate who almost died through crystal meth OD. Stupid asshole. Still happy and shit....

[Ev]

I would strongly advise against doing DMT with that kind of attitude. Drugs are influenced by your personal fears and expectations (even tho to a much lesser degreen then lucid dreams). I did 5Meo DMT once (as ayahuasca) , that was one hell of a trip, even tho I didnt reach even half of planned potency. Still, even at that low dose I completely forgot the reality of existence, language, was totally oblivious to the surroundings while surfing my long forgotten memories... Not to mention that all that time I was rolling in a puddle of puke... What I should mention is that the experience was a lot like a dream, at one point I even realized it's weirdness and even attempted flying... Lucid dreaming definitely has 1000 times the potential of any drug, but it also takes more practice. Another important thing is: unlike a trip, you can actually control the lucid experiencce and laugh in the face of *any* danger you meet. There's also no physical symptoms and your mind is much clearer then during any trip. As you have said you did a lot of drugs, so you can experience *much* more weird images/concepts, very much like those that Carlos Castaneda describes in his book "The Art of Dreaming"

[nina]

Oh yeah, I especially love the part about rolling around in puke. Nothing like a good vomit bath and possibly killing yourself because you think you can fly off of a building... Sign me up.

[Matchbook]

Going against the grain here.. I would vote on trying it. But first come to an understanding about whether you are a strong person with few fears. If you are mentally prepared, then you are ahead of the game. To be quite honest, you aren't going to come out of the experience with any harm done. The few cases of people hurting themselves on DMT were by people who were being reckless and ill-prepared. You may come out of it with some intense feelings, good or bad, and maybe some newfound knowledge. Who knows. Anyway, to simply experience DMT once is worth trying, as long as you don't mind the risk of strong emotional feelings afterward as a result. I'm not an advocate for drugs. But since you do seem experienced and have no real desire to continue on in an addictive fashion, but rather quit, I don't think you'd be hindered by one DMT trip. But then again, I don't know you. Do what you think is best.

[Universal Mind]

Thanks, everybody, for your insightful responses. I thought really hard about all of them. I am still not 100% sure what I will do, but one quote really spoke volumes for me... Originally posted by Ev I Lucid dreaming definitely has 1000 times the potential of any drug This was from somebody who has done DMT, and it hits the nail on the head with what I was looking for. The part of my research that really sticks out is what is said in Terrence McKenna's book The Archaic Revival. He was one of the leading experts in psychedelic experiences. He talks about DMT like it is far different from any other type of hallucinogen and says that it presents a very specific dimension that is ultimately mind expanding in very specific ways. He said that the danger with DMT is that the user might "die of astonishment." If DMT presents big time angles on reality and understandings that could not be discovered by lucid dreaming alone, then I want to try it, even at the risk of experiencing horror. McKenna did admit that he was not even a novice at lucid dreaming. He had a few, but he didn't say anything emphatic about them and said that he had no idea how to have them on command. I know how to have them on command and say that lucid dreaming is hands down the most mind expanding practice I have ever engaged in. It has infinite imagination potential, astoundingly deep emotional potential, and infinite potential for warping and twisting the basic principles of reality and conceptualization. With that being the case, I don't quite understand how DMT could do anything lucid dreaming cannot. I can't concieve of any state of consciousness (positive ones at least) that can't, in theory, be reached in a lucid dream. If I read about DMT experiences and then make reality do the same thing in a lucid dream, wouldn't I get the same perspectives? Ev, would you say that there is any SPECIFIC thing DMT can do that lucid dreaming cannot do other than scare the hell out of people? Plobable said that it killed some people in his/her town. I read that DMT can't kill you, but I read about the threat of death too, particularly by making breathing stop. If that's the case, screw DMT. I've had friends die of drug overdoses, and there is no way I'm going out like that.

[dreamtamer007]

No matter what kind of drug you do you are ultimately not in control. Being lucid by definition means to be clear of thought and mind. I was off of street drugs for over 15 years before having my first LD. I would not expect results to early after using street drugs. I’ve have been into acid and masculine and the downs in the long run always out way the highs. Not to mention close encounters with ending it all. I never met an excessive drug user that in time didn’t wind up with a case of paranoia. Do yourself a favor and go natural and be patient.

[Matchbook]

My response came from my experience having used DMT as well. I never had a negative trip. It's more like a theme park ride. It may have some scary or wild parts to it, but once it is over you may look back on it as a great experience. If you do try it, you need to change your mindset. You are expecting the worst, and that is exactly what will be imbedded in your subconscious expectations, which could easily be manifested during a trip. You must clear your mind of doubts and fears and fill it with confidence and positivity. That is essential to enlightenment in any realm of seeking. When someone says "Lucid dreaming has 1000 times the potential of any drug," that is subjective. Not everyone is able to tap into the complete potential of LDing. Very few people are able to truely able to maintain control in a LD. Some people are enlightened by LD experiences, but often it is derived from things that are symbolic or representative of something meaningful. With a DMT trip these things are often cast upon you forcefully, instead of you having to pick away at the meaning. It depends which you prefer. You are in a fully conscious state, having images and thoughts from your subconscious raining upon your vision and mind. You simply must do your best to soak up all you can, and to avoid being overwhelmed by the magnitude of it. Then again, some people are not in a mindset for learning and just sit back and goggle at all the shapes and colors. I say, if you have a very good foothold in LDing, and are quite able to exert control in them, you probably don't have any need for something like DMT. But LDing is something you will have all your life, and DMT a possibly once-in-a-lifetime experience. Is it worth it to you? Just ponder it.

[Howie]

Originally posted by evolo I have done my fair share of drugs but am currently drug free and plan to stay that way for awhile. But I have always considered doing DMT and mescaline when I feel I am ready for them. From what I have read and heard, they can open doors to new realities and unlock answers. A lot of very good advice. This may come from a differant point of view. But I mean not to offend. You say you are drug free Now. Then you discuss trying a couple of drugs. You also talk of trying this or that. If you attach yourself to the use of drugs you will always use them. The harder the drug the rougher road it will be. You have to choose. With some of these newer hardcore drugs. It is not like smoking a dubie or anything. These are drug classifications that can alter you mind indefinetally, not just during useage. I don't mean to come off as some straight edge.That is just my experiance. nothing more.

[Ev]

Originally posted by Universal Mind+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Universal Mind)</div> Plobable said that it killed some people in his/her town. *I read that DMT can't kill you, but I read about the threat of death too, particularly by making breathing stop. *If that's the case, screw DMT. *I've had friends die of drug overdoses, and there is no way I'm going out like that.[/b] Indeed, you got that right. After a long ride through my memories, I was abruptly brought to the real world. Everything seemed strange. At first I thought I was dead, but then I found out that I just stopped breathing. I was forced to breathe by controlling my chest movements. Not sure how long I did it, but it seemed pretty damn long. I was dehydrated from puking as well. I thought that's how the hell must be like, and I dont remember how long I thought it would last. Definitely quite unpleasant state... The trip on ingested 5meo DMT lasted for close to 4 hours with severe hangover. I dont want to sound too negative and want to say that In spite of that bad trip, I would like to try pure crystalline DMT. (I'm not touching ayahuasca anymore). If I'll do it again, I'll prepare myself accordingly and will seek answers about concepts that intrigue me. <!--QuoteBegin-Universal Mind Ev, would you say that there is any SPECIFIC thing DMT can do that lucid dreaming cannot do other than scare the hell out of people? * well, there were few things that seemed hardcore. One was nonlinear alien thinking. Pretty much like my mind was processing unsorted nerve impulses. The moment I comprehend one of them, it would lead to another that was 10 times more complicated... Another thing was pretty cool - I was recalling events that happened more then 5 years back exactly as they happened (pretty much like I was there and was looking through my own eyes again). At certain point I became aware that I can stop recalling memories from this life and can recall memories of my past life. For a split second I did so and it just shocked me beyond belief. I cant remember what happened afterwards or what I saw.

[Pandragon]

I had a roomate who once came home from a 5meo-DMT trip. He said it was the most horrifying experience of his entire life. He experienced "death" (his soul leaving his body) twice in 30 minutes, and then was unable to sleep for 3 days straight and it took another week or so for him to feel somewhat "normal" again. I've been around a bit and used more than my share of drugs, especially psychedelics. That's all in my past now, but I'm not against safe, mature, and educated use by responsible adults in a proper setting. Everyone has their own path to follow, who are we to judge? But Dude, you sound like you're already setting yourself up for a bad trip! And for what? How certain are you it will be worth it? It almost seems like you're hoping for a terrifying experience to help you permanently put drugs behind you. Why don't you just do what I did - find other things to replace drugs that are just as rewarding like Spirituality, LD'ing, Tantra, Brainwave Entrainment, Hypnosis, Amygdala Clicking, etc, etc, etc... There's no end to the safe highs available that don't require you to roll the dice on your body and brain. My personal favorite was a specific mix of drugs (I'm not gonna give anyone here ideas). I always thought it was "the ultimate high" for me. Since I've been clean, I've gone way past that "ultimate high" many times with nothing more than 45 minutes of self-hypnosis, a positive attitude and a healthy imagination. I support your search for new horizons, just don't sink your ship in the process, ok?

[Matchbook]

By the way 5-meo-dmt is not the same drug as dmt, although they are similar, dmt is stronger. It is correct dmt won't kill you, but you can kill yourself on dmt. It is extremely rare, you'd have to be in a complete state of delusion and insanity. Usually inexperienced drug users are the ones that end up with the worst experiences because they don't know what to expect. But anyone is susceptible. Universal Mind, I don't think it is important for you at this point to take another step toward the drug world. If your mind is focussed on making your way out of it, dmt is only a sidestep, although I don't think it's very possible to get addicted to dmt. If you are on a quest for spiritual fulfillment, maybe look to scriptures, or God, or heck, even dreaming. But if you are prepared for the possible risks with dmt, that would be your choice.

[spoon]

I started LDing around the same time I stumbled upon a supply of DMT. I like both 5-MeO DMT is not DMT (s matchbook said), but DMT isn't the stronger one. ~70mg for a breakthrough (whole shazaam) trip on DMT, you don't want to take that much 5-MeO- which is a lot stronger and (reportedly, I've never taken it) a lot harsher experience as well. DMT can do things that I'm unable to attain in my lucid dreaming. I don't have a bad imagination, but the things you see on DMT are so far outside your experience - I'd be proud if I could make them up straight. But as people said, don't do DMT if you're looking to "trip out and see cool shit" - if you can respect a substance, you should respect this one. If you do decide to do it, you should be clued into a few things - although you already have researched it, these things are important. Would have made things easier for me - Fast for 12 hours beforhand - you don't want any other substances interacting with it. - Make sure of your (mind)set more than you would for any other drug. Do it only if you're sure you're in the right mood - I'd recommend having no commitments for the day you do it (funny story, read below) - Have a sitter. No excuses. I'd recommend having only the one person there, and instruct them to make no noise. - Music is fine to have on, but you dont really need any external stimulus like other drugs So I've done this drug about .... 12 times? Smoking the freebase form is hard to do right. Still to this day I have not had a full breakthrough trip. But 11/12 experiences I have had on it have been extremely uplifting, given me lots to think about, and generally just been 100% crazy. The one time I had a bad experience on it, I had to work in about 5 hours time - for some reason a minute into the trip I got this vague feeling I had this thing called "work" to go to. Which freaked me out. Then I forgot my name, what year it was, where I was (my bedroom ), what to do with a bottle of water "am i supposed to.............. drink it?". About 6 minutes later I was fine. But meh, thats the nature of the drug. Sometimes it's just too much to handle. I was over the "bad" part in a few minutes, in retrospect it was very interesting. I guess the moral of the story is if you're going to try DMT, be prepared to be completely insane for ~6 minutes, and be in the mindset to accept absolutely anything that happens. -spoon

[Universal Mind]

Originally posted by Pandragon I had a roomate who once came home from a 5meo-DMT trip. He said it was the most horrifying experience of his entire life. He experienced \"death\" (his soul leaving his body) twice in 30 minutes, and then was unable to sleep for 3 days straight and it took another week or so for him to feel somewhat \"normal\" again. * *I've been around a bit and used more than my share of drugs, especially psychedelics. That's all in my past now, but I'm not against safe, mature, and educated use by responsible adults in a proper setting. Everyone has their own path to follow, who are we to judge? *But Dude, you sound like you're already setting yourself up for a bad trip! And for what? How certain are you it will be worth it? It almost seems like you're hoping for a terrifying experience to help you permanently put drugs behind you. *Why don't you just do what I did - find other things to replace drugs that are just as rewarding like Spirituality, LD'ing, Tantra, Brainwave Entrainment, Hypnosis, Amygdala Clicking, etc, etc, etc... *There's no end to the safe highs available that don't require you to roll the dice on your body and brain. My personal favorite was a specific mix of drugs (I'm not gonna give anyone here ideas). I always thought it was \"the ultimate high\" for me. *Since I've been clean, I've gone way past that \"ultimate high\" many times with nothing more than 45 minutes of self-hypnosis, a positive attitude and a healthy imagination. * * *I support your search for new horizons, just don't sink your ship in the process, ok? I appreciate everybody's further insight. Pandragon, I didn't try to set myself up to think DMT is a nightmare. I read many, many accounts of that on the internet. The story you just told said a lot. Having that stuff haunt me long after I do it is one of my hangups about it. I have no idea how to come across straight DMT crystals in Mississippi, so I would have to do ayahuasca brew, the vomit stuff Ev described. That trip doesn't last six minutes. It lasts many hours. I am at a friend's house right now, and he just talked about the effects of inhalants. That reminded me of the fact that I don't do those because they eat your brain up really bad. I inhaled freon when I was 19 and saw some the crazy stuff any drug has ever made me see, but I decided then to never do another inhalant again. I'm lucky I didn't die on the spot, from frozen lungs if nothing else. That reminds me that some crazy states, even if they can't be reached any other way, aren't worth it. I liked your suggestion about natural highs, which is exactly what my plan has been and is getting me off drugs. I am going to get more into transcendental meditation, which I used to be way into. I also want to get a sensory deprivation tank. I have never used a mind machine, but I have been wanting to check those out for about a year now. Kundalini Yoga and possibly Tantric are of interest to me too. Along with those things and getting highs from running and biking, things I do any way, I am of course going to go further and further in a lucid state in to the dream world, the ultimate frontier of mind expansion. It's settled. I am going to do mushrooms and salvia once more each, and that is it. It's time to really get into the real stuff. Thanks.

[Matchbook]

Spoon, With all respect, DMT is the stronger of the two. They are not the same chemical, so you cannot compare dosage. The threshold dose in DMT is much higher. But a high dose DMT trip and 5-MeO-DMT trip compared would have DMT as much stronger. Anyway, don't take my advice, check Erowid.

[tryured]

I forget what website I found it on, but it was just someones theory anyway. But they reconed that people shouldn't take drugs becasue if you believe in the life after death process/reincarnation they stated that some drugs messed up your genetic code and you could possiblyibly be born a cripple or have a mental illness in your next life time. I know that sounds pretty bad, and I for one would be a gonner if it was true. It is more than liekly not true but it's hard to get something like that out of your head when you read it.

[plobable]

what a good reading thread. ....6 a.m. the people that died here where on some other things too and it wasnt the dmt that killed them...

[psychedelic]

- - He experienced \"death\" (his soul leaving his body) twice - - [/b] DMT is a drug that makes your astral body leave your physical body (Out of Body Experience) along with severe hallucinations that are NOT in the control of the user. The deaths caused by this drug are mainly caused by fear (not realizing that the hallucinations are hallucinations, thinking they are real). Also, an interesting fact is, that scizophrenics experience the same hallucionations and feelings that are caused by DMT... and if one has a "bad gene" fo being a scizo, DMT could probably bring it forward and make you lose your mind... for real. Drugs can give us a small taste of what we can achieve naturally.

[plobable]

not sure if it is true but i read somewheres yesterday or the day before that dmt can be produced in the peneal gland.. anyone else hear of thissss