Fixing and Declawing Cats (split from pic thread)

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Neruo Instead of making my cats impotent so they can't get pregant or pregnate by cutting their genitals off, I just cut off 3 of their legs. It's cheaper, and they are sure not to make babies. Moral of the story: *Animal cruelty is a bitch, but at least it's not super-aids.

[Courtney Mae]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten For fucks sake, it happened once (when my dad killed the kittens). Either read things through and comment or don't comment at all. Well now you're just being disrespectful. I'm sorry, but I'll comment if I want to comment. That's what a thread's for. If you didn't want comments why'd you start one? And I find it a little suspicious that 5 pages into the thread you're all the sudden "Oh! I never killed kittens! It was my daddy all along! I would never do that!" When for the past four pages you've been arguing with us about whether or not animals can even feel, and telling us that killing innocent babies is perfectly humane. Honestly, just give up, babe. There's no possible way you can make yourself look good now after all you've said.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Threads are for comments, yes, so I will comment back and whether it's "disrespectful" is down to choice of interpretation. I will no longer argue with you about your.. misunderstanding of what I said. And I am not blaming my father but truely stating that he did teach me so and he did with this one litter do so. And if you want me to lie and confess to being a kitten murderer then you're a bit screwy. I am not trying to look good in any way. The fact that I said that this is the way it's been done itself already can be seen as something that does not "look good" from other people's views. So if I did not want to look bad I would just not say anything at all, ever.

[OpheliaBlue]

I guess ease up on Chainsaw a little? You'd be surprised what all we learn to accept when we're young because our parents did it, and told us it was ok. I believed pretty much everything my parents told me until I was a teenager, when I started to question things. At least Chainsaw admits there might have been a flaw in her father's doings, and she's trying to learn about it in this thread, and she's remained quite cool and collective, even when a few of you have been throwing accusations at her left and right, sometimes to the point of being plain rude and insulting. So maybe be a little more educational here folks, and a little less judgemental. Thanks

[Ravyn]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten They're newborn and don't even feel anything. All animals feel things, whether newborn or not. for you to say they don't is an insult. and not to mention cruel and sadistic. killing newborn kittens? i can't think of anything that is more cold-hearted.

[OpheliaBlue]

Originally posted by Ravyn All animals feel things, whether newborn or not. for you to say they don't is an insult. pardon me but I don't think it was intended to be an insult...please stop causing trouble here, this is for legitimate discussion about the moral implications of declawing/fixing cats, not mud-slinging

[Sortilegio]

Weird choice for a first post. you a lurker that couldn't help to say that?

[Tsen]

Heh...this discussion reminded me of one of my favorite shirts: GO REGRESSIVE!

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Maddox! I was just lecturing people on the phpBB chat on the glory of Maddox and his verbal deconstruction of PETA.

[boldtypespark]

Ok, well I took the time to read this whole thread. Interesting opinions I must say. Well, I guess ill post mine now . Ok here it go's. Unless you are breeding in a proper fashion, in MY opinion cats and dogs should be spayed or neutered. I may be wrong in saying this, but firstly. I do not think the average owner has the personal right, not to spay or neuter their animal. Why you may ask? Because from my observation and experience a vast majority of the cats and dogs that have been sent to the SPCA are animals that could not have been given away or sold in a suitable amount of time. Or animals that have been abandoned or given away for other personal reasons. Secondly, when you dont spay or neuter your animals, heres what might happen. The first generation of animals are born unspayed/uneutered, they live their lives fine, make alot of little babies, what a nice life. Now this generation of animals arent spayed and neutered either, while the first generation of cats are STILL alive and young, the second generation are having babies too. This endless cycle go's on and on, and pretty soon, there would just be way to many animals, and not enough people that want animals. Hense, they are all captured, attempted to sell, and since everyone already has a cat or dog, or maybe both, they arent going to want another. Poor little kitty gets put down along with all its brothers and sisters. You see? As for declawing, im not saying its right. But if its absolutely nessicary, and if the cat were just to be put down otherwise? Then id say declaw it.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Chainsaw Kitten Declawing is illegal in Switzerland. I agree with that measure. I understand the point. Declawing is the most severe and painful of the operations that one can do to a cat, and it does marginalize their prowless. However... If one prevents declawing, then a great many cats who would have otherwise been adopted will not be adopted. some homemakers simply wish to keep very valuable furnishings at the same time as they would like to keep some cats. (I love cats and keep four indoor cats, but half of my furniture is shredded to ruin). The price a kitty would pay to live in such a nice establishment is a painful several days, and then to be less able to defend itself in an environment where there is no threat. Many a cat would not have found a home if not for declawing. so, you would rather kill all of these cats then give them a declawing. where is the priority in that?

[The Blue Meanie]

Originally posted by Leo Volont If one prevents declawing, then a great many cats who would have otherwise been adopted will not be adopted. some homemakers simply wish to keep very valuable furnishings at the same time as they would like to keep some cats. (I love cats and keep four indoor cats, but half of my furniture is shredded to ruin). The price a kitty would pay to live in such a nice establishment is a painful several days, and then to be less able to defend itself in an environment where there is no threat. Many a cat would not have found a home if not for declawing. so, you would rather kill all of these cats then give them a declawing. where is the priority in that? I disagree. (Oh, boy, if I had a dollar for every time I said THAT...) Owners who declaw their cats or "adopt" declawed cats are able to do so because declawing is an option. WERE declawing illegal and not practiced, I do not think that you can say that those same owners, who would normally "opt" for declawed cats, would not still "adopt" cats even though not declawed. In my opinion, many would choose to adopt cats anyway. (This is, of course, mere speculation but I believe it to be right...) So, we have two possible mentalities: 1) "I want a cat, but only if it's declawed, and I will not get a cat at all unless it's declawed." 2) "I want a cat and am getting one, and am going to have it declawed if possible". If we take mentality number 2 as the norm, as I believe it is, then making declawing illegal WOULD be an effective measure.

[icedawg]

I think Leo's logical approach to the problem we're considering is actually quite valid, especially considering pets are often adopted into homes by families whose members share dissenting views (i.e. kids want a cat, mom doesn't want the house shred to ruins... no declawing option, then it's a hamster the kids get instead). And I\'d like to add that it\'s too bad he can\'t write all his posts in the way he has here, without aggressively denouncing other people\'s beliefs, opinions, or otherwise saying really nasty, horrible things.

[mongreloctopus]

i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. besides, maybe if you keep up the practice of killing half of each litter, the litter sizes will eventually decrease offering a viable solution to the problem of kitten over-population. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia.

[Burns]

Originally posted by Leo Volont I understand the point. Declawing is the most severe and painful of the operations that one can do to a cat, and it does marginalize their prowless. However... If one prevents declawing, then a great many cats who would have otherwise been adopted will not be adopted. some homemakers simply wish to keep very valuable furnishings at the same time as they would like to keep some cats. (I love cats and keep four indoor cats, but half of my furniture is shredded to ruin). The price a kitty would pay to live in such a nice establishment is a painful several days, and then to be less able to defend itself in an environment where there is no threat. Many a cat would not have found a home if not for declawing. so, you would rather kill all of these cats then give them a declawing. where is the priority in that? I also agree with Leo's post. There would be many more adoptable cats euthanized if declawing were made illegal. Many declawed cats live excellent lives. If the declawing procedure is done correctly, and pain management is used, the discomfort from the surgery far outweighs the alternative (which is to not be adopted and possibly euthanized). Also, if declawing were made illegal, I have a feeling people would want it done anyway. Some dishonest surgeons may still do the procedure illegally, and probably not correctly and with no pain management in place.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Originally posted by Burns I also agree with Leo's post. There would be many more adoptable cats euthanized if declawing were made illegal. Many declawed cats live excellent lives. If the declawing procedure is done correctly, and pain management is used, the discomfort from the surgery far outweighs the alternative (which is to not be adopted and possibly euthanized). Also, if declawing were made illegal, I have a feeling people would want it done anyway. Some dishonest surgeons may still do the procedure illegally, and probably not correctly and with no pain management in place. Switzerland is a utopia for cats. Well, Switzerland may be a bad example as it is a utopia for practically... anything and anyone. And Burns has a valid point. It's just like with abortions. If you ban them, people start getting back alley abortions a lot more often. People always seek to get what they want if the desire is strong; even if it requires seeing heads roll. However we induced declawing cats onto this world, and now we have to take action to in the end come up with the wanted results. You don't just keep something going even though it's a horrible practice just because if you wanted to change it it would need major sacrifices. Many many changes need sacrifices. In an ideal world, nobody would ever (generalisation) use the method of killing kittens, spaying & neutering or declawing them. It just wouldn't be a neccessity. However we fucked up the environment. And one always strives to correct things, right? Life is shit and sugar, but you use the pooper scooper and the bag of the sweet stuff as much as possible. And to have the sugar you may need to shovel some shit down. And Leo and Burns do have very valid points indeed. However so does Meanie. It's difficult to weigh out all the options and try and predict the results. It's probably one of the most difficult things possible in life. However we still do it. If you have the 5% chance to escape and the 95% of being excecuted, which do you pick? (Quote by the head of the libertarian party in America.) I think I am not going to draw an ultimate conclusion on my part just yet. I'm just mulling over everything first. I will post once I take everything in and try to come up with something that actively fits my philosophy. i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. besides, maybe if you keep up the practice of killing half of each litter, the litter sizes will eventually decrease offering a viable solution to the problem of kitten over-population. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia. [/b] Incredible. Someone considers alternate possibilities or motives behind it. Not saying that all of you haven't, but this is quite a relief. I'm also not saying that my theory is perfectly correct in the least but he took the different aspects into account.

[Tsen]

Just to note: Killing half of the kittens will NOT gradually decrease litter size. The cat HAVING the babies will have no survival benefit for having less babies, only the babies will recieve said benefit. And since the babies have no genetic influence on the number of kittens in their own litter, no evolutionary reaction will take place. Now, if you killed all cats AND all their offspring, or had them fixed, if they had a litter above a certain size, THEN the litter size would decrease. But that's a tad bit on the impractical and unenforceable side.

[mongreloctopus]

Originally posted by Tsen Just to note: Killing half of the kittens will NOT gradually decrease litter size. The cat HAVING the babies will have no survival benefit for having less babies, only the babies will recieve said benefit. And since the babies have no genetic influence on the number of kittens in their own litter, no evolutionary reaction will take place. yeah...i wasn't being entirely serious. i guess i'm going to have to start using smileys although i feel like they detract from the seriousness of the entire post--what is one to do if only half of the post is serious??

[Tsen]

Heh, sorry about that misunderstanding. I was just going off the quote, not your original post, so I assumed you were being serious...Well, I'll pay more attention next time.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

Well it seemed you weren't joking about everything to me. I didn't agree with that point, I just thought it was good for you to have taken a different perspective and look other things over.

[mongreloctopus]

in order to minimize confusion i will submit an edited post with only serious thoughts: i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia.

[Neruo]

Originally posted by mongreloctopus in order to minimize confusion i will submit an edited post with only serious thoughts: i don't think anyone here really considered anything about chainsaw kitten's anecdote except that it inolved the death of kittens. everything/everyone dies. maybe there's actually a good reason behind slaughtering a certain number of kittens. yeah, it's real easy to jump on the band-wagon "killing kittens is wrong!"...apply that mentality to all parts of your life and stop supporting companies that test on animals (proctor and gamble, for instance, which happens to be involved with at least 80% of the average person's purchases), stop driving a car, stop buying meat/dairy/leather/misc. animal products, stop using any product that isn't recycled/recylable etc. not so easy, is it? it's stupid to think that after we've CAUSED a problem, it's okay to just let it go unchecked. we messed with the natural feline way, and now we have to deal with it using whatever means necessary--whether that's neutering/spaying or euthanasia. Good point. ------------ Now for something completely different: lol. ^___^ <3 Now stop caring and get a life people. And a car. To run over kittens.

[Tsen]

Yay for running down kittens! Helicopters and rifles (none of those weak tranqs, though, I'm talking the real thing) are fair play, right? LOL about that picture, and LMFAO that Chainsaw Kitten used it for a siggie!

[Burns]

LOL at Chainsaw Kitten's signature! Way to take all the criticism in stride (and I was one of the worst ones)! I'm impressed.

[Chainsaw Kitten]

I just think it's funny. I think here I need to explain exactly what I mean by "newborns not being able to feel pain." This was too blunt and not specific enough, and now that I read it I can see myself arguing against myself. What I mean by this is that at such a young age animals have developed no real personality quirks. They feel sensations. Here wombing is exactly right. But sensations are made more extreme by the understanding of them. For example, a girl breaks her wrist. It hurts yes, and this makes her cry. Yet she also understands that she will not be able to write or play baseball in the upcoming tryouts. These all are very relevant. Correct me if I am wrong, but a human baby would not have anything near this simplistic understanding. If a baby gets a cut, the baby will not understand that it is bad because it will sting whenever she gets salty food on the wound. So therefore it hurts, but there is no specific understanding. The newborn kitten understands even less than the baby. If we're talking about humane killing, the cat feels nothing in the sense that it may feel a sensation, but it's almost immediately over. I guess that could be considered humane. Now what most people here are imposing are morals. This process is not less legal than euthanization in shelters. And personally, I'd rather kill kittens at newborn age when they have no real personality traits yet than give them to a shelter when they're weened and they have developed or are developing this personality. That's even more cruel. They are very likely to be killed then. There are special situations in which this must be done. There are special situations in which special tactics must be used. For example, Cookie, who had the litter of which we killed a few, was adopted. We took her in from the streets. She was a lovely cat. We didn't know her age and were planning on fixing her. However she disappeared for three weeks and came back pregnant. Why did we not fix her before? We did not know her exact age and didn't want to risk fixing her early. We told the vet about her and he agreed. The kittens were killed humanely. After that we had one litter of which we kept all of the kittens. We're planning on having another litter sometime when we're ready for it. Just some lovely European Shorthairs, simple farm cats, that we can raise. I should have explained all of these things in more detail, but I was in a hurry whenever I wrote the posts at the beginning of the thread.