Thread: THIS IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT

Here's my spill on PETA.

Yeah, I'm against slaughterhouses. Cleaning up needs to happen. PETA has shown that they have an OBVIOUS INEPTITUDE at handling public relations and are incapable of successfully convincing government agencies to change their policy.

Flaw #1: PETA takes an extremist position. Extremism almost NEVER wins out. Moderate their position somewhat, and they'll find much greater success. They're trying to jump a twenty foot tall fence in a hurdles race. Just won't work. But if they'd just take things step-by-step, for example, petitioning for cleaner work standards in the meat industries, but not the outright closing of said industries, then they'd be more likely to succeed.
Nobody sane wants to see animals butchered that way. But people DO still want to eat meat. Give them the option to have the best of both worlds, and they'll be infinitely more willing to join.

Flaw #2: PETA advocates wide-spread vegetarianism. For an individual, being vegetarian or vegan is perfectly healthy, though they will most certainly have to watch their diet closely and take quite a few supplements to make up for the lost nutrients not available in diets without meet and dairy. An interesting note is that several (but not all) supplements of those types are derived from animals--making the whole charade rather unconvincing for those who aren't careful in their selection of supplements.
Also, important to note, is that while individuals who are vegetarians may be healthy, they won't exceed expectations often. Without a source of high-protein food (supplements can only do so much), most of their energy is rapidly expelled, and the majority of vegetarians have very little to no endurance.
As for the implementation of wide-spread vegetarianism, it simply WON'T WORK. Humankind is a omnivorous species. We need BOTH aspects of a herbivorous and a carnivorous diet. Thanks to modern technology, we have supplements available to make up for the lack of meat in one's diet. BUT, in order to be successful at removing meat from one's diet, a person has to VERY CAREFULLY watch their protein and calcium intakes. Taking daily supplements and carefully balancing EVERY SINGLE MEAL is necessary to stay healthy while abstaining from meat.
That's why vegetarianism can work for an individual: It is possible.
That's also why vegetarianism won't work for the whole population: It isn't easy.
More or less, people are lazy. Most people aren't overly committed to the vegetarian cause. They'll only go along with a vegetarian diet if it's easy enough for them to handle without inconveniencing themselves. The majority won't be able to maintain a vegetarian diet without experiencing extreme energy issues and bone problems. It'll be a health nightmare; affecting more than half of the population easily, and likely as much as three quarters.
It simply isn't feasible as an alternative for the masses.

I've got more, but I'll leave it at that for now.

i'm not saying that animal cruelty isn't a bad thing, but when there are more people concerned with animals being treated badly than people that are concerned about horrible situations such as darfur or any other humanitarian crisis, something is seriously wrong. there are many things in this world that deserve much more attention than animals are getting.

I fully agree with you all. The conditions in which these animals are kept are utterly disgusting, and it is not right that they should suffer so.

That's why I try to eat as much red meat as possible. Steak, mince, spare ribs, you name it, if it makes any sound from Old Macdonald's Farm, I eat it.

Join with me, and consume as much red meat as possible! The more red meat we eat, the more animals meat producers have to kill to sustain our collective diet! The more animals they have to kill, the fewer have to live and suffer!

Help stop animal cruelty! Eat more red meat!

Yeah, sure, animals in some or most or whatever slaughterhouses are treated cruelly and inhumanely, but, trying to shut them ALL down and making the entire human population a veagan is worse. Millions will lose their jobs, the economy will rupture and break down, there will be riots and then, there will be underground slaughterhouses because of the natural human love for meat. And in these underground slaughterhouses the animals will probably be treated worse. OK. Here we have your 2 choices.

1. Continue with your campaign, putting animals over humans and wreck the country/world if you succeed.
or
2. Water down your campaign to just increasing the well-being and treatment of the animals before they die.



Your choice.

PETA are over reacting. Instead of trowing red paint on the (idoits/) people that wear fur, they should actually go and do something about it. Like kill the people that beat seals to death.

If some-one rich gets red paint on his/her nice fur coat, they buy a new one. lolololol.

[size=24]WARNING WARNING WARNING

This will kill your high! I just HAD to watch that movie...

i think everyone should watch "meet your meat" once. if they've seen that and still continue to eat mass-produced flesh, fine. no sense wasting my breath on them. i view those people in the same way they themselves must view factory farmed animals..dead, emotionless machines.

i'm not saying that animal cruelty isn't a bad thing, but when there are more people concerned with animals being treated badly than people that are concerned about horrible situations such as darfur or any other humanitarian crisis, something is seriously wrong. there are many things in this world that deserve much more attention than animals are getting.[/b]

certainly. however, i have found that most veg*ans (though not all) seem to have a better grasp on injustice to both human and non-human animals. and many crusade for positive change in both areas.

for instance, i was part of an amnesty group in my small hometown. there were 8 members including myself. only after a month did it come up that two others beside myself were veg*an ...they were the only ones i ever met in that city of 75,000..pretty unlikely coincidence.


all aspects of life are interconnected. if someone is alright with exploiting non-human animals, they are more likely to turn a blind eye to the exploitation or suffering of human animals.

if someone is repulsed by the "meet your meat" video and take action to change their lifestyle in order to affect change, they are more likely to take action when they see humans suffering.

the true measure of compassion is whether or not one alleviates the suffering of a weaker being who can offer them nothing. a rwandan child, chinese sweatshop worker, or baby calf has nothing to offer most people, so they don't give a shit.

As long as they can change the channel to a mindless sitcom and forget, wear their favourite shirt produced in a sweatshop, and eat their veal cutlet they are just fine and dandy. the same selfishness and apathy contributes to each decision.

you are right...humans should take priority. just remember that vegans are opposed to exploiting or killing ANY animal, including humans.

^ ^ ^ Exactly. I have no idea why people think if you care about animals then you don't care about humans. There's absolutely no logic to that. I also find that people who are sensitive to animal rights are more sensitive than the average person to human rights as well. Nobody's saying let humans suffer so that animals can benefit. Where's the logic there? I don't get it. I'm a vegetarian and I hate animal abuse/exploitation but I'm a human being and will always choose the life of a human over an animal. It's as simple as that.

"Also, important to note, is that while individuals who are vegetarians may be healthy, they won't exceed expectations often. Without a source of high-protein food (supplements can only do so much), most of their energy is rapidly expelled, and the majority of vegetarians have very little to no endurance."

That's ridiculous! If you meet a veg that is lacking in their diet it's because they haven't done their research as to what they should be consuming to substitute meat. I will repeat for the millionth time, IT IS POSSIBLE TO BE HEALTHY WITHOUT HAVING MEAT IN YOUR DIET!!! Are you guys aware that there are tons of foods out there that are high sources of protein that aren't meat? Go look at the nutritional information on a can or package of beans. I BEG YOU to stop make such ridiculous statements and assumptions. PLEASE. You do not have to "VERY CAREFULLY" watch your calcium and protein intake. Do some research when you first start and you'll be fine. Trust me, it is so simple. Think about how advanced our world is nowadays. You're telling me in this day and age we're not smart enough to figure this stuff out? Think about what you're saying.

For the record, I haven't been eating meat for almost a year and I've honestly never had more energy. I kickbox and I've started running again recently and it's so much more effortless now. I'm also going back to school and doing great at work. Also planning to fit volunteering into my schedule somewhere - for human causes! Not animal. Just in case some of you were going to jump to conclusions.

I agree PETA is extreme and they don't have a good grasp on how to go about making the changes that they're seeking, but I also think they're a group of passionate people who really believe in their cause.

I don't want everyone to stop eating meat, I don't think that's realistic. And I'm fine with people including meat in their diet, but like Beef Jerky said, I'd like to see better treatment for animals before they die. I think that's the aim of a lot of vegan/vegetarians.

Is that really such a terrible thing?

EDIT - Anybody interested in what a vegetarian diet is like can PM me and I will let you know exactly what my diet consists of, the nutritional value, where I did my research for my diet, etc. You may be suprised.

And check these out:

http://veggie.org/veggie/famous.veg.athletes.shtml

http://www.brendanbrazier.com/

http://www.naturodoc.com/library/nutrition/protein.htm

Famous vegetarians and vegans who "exceed/exceeded expectations":

http://www.vegetarian-restaurants.net/Othe...o/FamousVeg.htm

I watched that pointless video narrated by Alec Baldwin (World renowned FAG)


and while it tries to play to the bleeding heart of people with some gross moments (like the balls being cut off) I fail to see anything particularly wrong with what they were doing. I'm not quite sure how you expect animals that are bred to be food to be treated, anyway? Should they be loved and cared for right up until they get that bolt gun to the head? Give me a break, it's a business centered around killing animals for food. Not only that, but you said 'cows/pigs/chickens lives are equal to human life and if one doesn't care for the animals they must not care for human suffering'?! I'm sorry, but that is quite presumptuous to assume what someone else thinks, and overall an insult to all of human accomplishments. I don't see cows doing anything other than chewing their own cud while humans do things like travel to the moon. They are clearly lower life forms that not only have been food for humans for centuries but probably killed in much worse and more inefficient ways before now.

You shouldn't get so disturbed by the efficiency in which humans kill animals we've been doing it since the dawn of man and its nothing new or mindblowing. And while you may think yourself progressive, and a model for us all, just remember the time period in which you live in, and the fact that your very existence, and daily life of; driving, playing playstation 2, using the internet, and living out all those other dull little facets of your life are contributing to the destruction of natural habitats around the world and the extinction of far more interesting species than cows, pigs, and chickens. If you must have a bleeding heart for some animals than why not turn that energy towards something more realistic like, deforestation or something?

Nobody has better spiritual credentials than myself and I have belonged to many a group in which the vegetarian and vegan diets were glorified, emulated and even enforced. All the propaganda says that it is the most healthy in addition to being the most moral and spiritual. However, after years of direct observation and experience, I found then nearly all a very sickly crowd. I was always struck with the contrast of how energetic and robust the ordinary meat eating public was compared to the 'Healthy' vegetarians who skuffed about barely able to pick up their feet and whose perceived energy levels hardly ever arose much more than a flicker.

Yet, some of the greatest and most energetic of Saints, of the various Higher Religions, had been vegetarians, but then again, some of these Saints had stopped eating entirely. So, I conclude, that to be a healthy Vegetarian qualifies as something of a miracle. Now, miracles are not impossible, but they are most decidedly elusive. Before one becomes a complete vegetarian, it would be good to know for certain that one was absolutely in a state of Grace and in full reception of that Miracle of health, or being a Vegetarian will only run one's self down.

Leo, I agree. My friend was a vegan for 3 years and he; got sick faster, looked sickly skinny, and overall was unhealthy looking.

I forget where I heard this, but I heard that our appendix was initially used to digest bone in a time where we ate the entire animal down to the marrow. MMM, sounds delicious.

Humans were meant to be omnivorous, period.

Originally posted by SolSkye


You shouldn't get so disturbed by the efficiency in which humans kill animals we've been doing it since the dawn of man and its nothing new or mindblowing.

Just because something has always been done or is tradition doesn't make it right.

I think people need to be honest. They like the taste of meat and that's why they eat it. It's not a neccessity, but we bring in the "but where will you get your protein....." arguements to cover it up. People like meat and that's how they were raised and they don't want to explore any other way of looking at it. It's as simple as that.

Originally posted by SolSkye
Leo, I agree. My friend was a vegan for 3 years and he; got sick faster, looked sickly skinny, and overall was unhealthy looking.

Humans were meant to be omnivorous, period.

You're friend didn't do his research. Don't make assumptions based on one person.

Originally posted by The Blue Meanie
I fully agree with you all. The conditions in which these animals are kept are utterly disgusting, and it is not right that they should suffer so.

That's why I try to eat as much red meat as possible. Steak, mince, spare ribs, you name it, if it makes any sound from Old Macdonald's Farm, I eat it.

Join with me, and consume as much red meat as possible! The more red meat we eat, the more animals meat producers have to kill to sustain our collective diet! The more animals they have to kill, the fewer have to live and suffer!

Help stop animal cruelty! Eat more red meat!

I'm with you on this. I don't think animal cruelty is right, but damn... I mean, how can killing an animal for food be animal cruelty? We aren't just killing them for no reason....

I suppose you'd save a zebra from getting torn to pieces by a pack of hyenas? How is standing idly by in that situation any different? The hyenas could get their energy from grass just as the zebra did but naturally their lot in life was different via evolution.

You obviously think humans are born vegetarians but somehow tainted by the availability/taste of meat, and I beg to differ. I think humans genetics, just like lions or hyenas, had chosen long long ago that they prefer a mixed diet with meat. Show me where I'm wrong and how vegatarians/vegans don't have to take all those vitamin supplements just to stay at a normal weight and then I'll agree with you

Originally posted by Gwendolyn


I mean, how can killing an animal for food be animal cruelty?

Because of what has to happen for the animal to get to your plate.

"Also, important to note, is that while individuals who are vegetarians may be healthy, they won't exceed expectations often. Without a source of high-protein food (supplements can only do so much), most of their energy is rapidly expelled, and the majority of vegetarians have very little to no endurance."

Note the OFTEN, Kichu. I've argued with you about this before, remember? I agreed, vegetarians may be healthy (see bold), but they won't exceed expectations often
(See bold again). YES! I whole-heartedly agree that vegetarians can be healthy. Yeah, beans have plenty of protein. Between a good mix of beans and a few hearty wheats, you can get a good balance of proteins. Plenty to keep you active. Plenty to give you endurance. The problem is that several vegetarians don't research properly. The information is wide-spread and readily available, but nowhere NEAR all vegetarians or vegans look for it.

Back to the proteins for a moment here. Now, beans provide plenty of raw protein. You look at the nutrition information, and you'll see that. Grams per serving is enormous, even compared to meat. But its the types of proteins that matters--it's a limited selection of amino acids (Beans are lysine rich, but deficient in other areas). That's where the balancing of meals comes in. You can take supplements, or you can balance your meals, or you can be unhealthy and meat-free. Balancing meals well enough to entirely avoid protein supplements is difficult if you haven't looked around. For most people, it's not an enormous concern, though--they don't work out enough to need the wide variety of proteins. They can make do with what they have. But, to be an athlete, ie run a marathon, you'll most certainly have to watch your proteins. VERY, VERY CLOSELY. In a marathon runner, they're more important than ever. Hence the "exceed expectations" clause. Meat carries immense varieties and amounts of proteins, since the animal that the meat came from derived those proteins from plants, and broke down the amino acids into a few new ones.

Essentially, humans need nine basic amino acids. One serving of meat carries moderate to good amounts of all those amino acids. In a marathon runner, they may want to intake an increased amount of these amino acids right before a run, since they'll be burning them straight away and not storing them. Otherwise, not much is needed and the average (non-vegetarian) American intakes roughly eight times as many amino acids as they need, which leads to a few health problems, notably difficulty processing calcium. Thus, the average American only needs one serving of meat a day (less than one dollar menu hamburger). More than that is unhealthy. A weight lifter ought not eat more than three servings of meat a day, since any more than that doesn't significantly boost their capability to increase muscle mass and adds to the same calcium problems.

So, back to vegetarians. A vegetarian, so long as the balance wheats (lysine deficient) with soy or something similar (lysine rich), won't have too many troubles. Also, in the average case, they don't have to balance every meal, only be sure to have both most every day. However, they still will run into endurance trouble if they don't balance their intake before extreme activity (Like marathon running, mountain climbing, or endurance biking). Some troubles might arise if they don't take supplements before such activity, as well (though non-vegetarians run into the same troubles too). In sprints or short-term activity, they'll actually exceed, since their sugars are high from fruits.

On to calcium. LIke I noted in the proteins area, most Americans don't process calcium well because they over-intake amino acids (Thank you, McDonalds). Calcium supplements won't help in this case--they just can't use the calcium, no matter how prevalent it is. Healthy diets are essential.

For vegetarians, caclium isn't an issue. They still have plenty of dairy, and they don't intake as many amino acids as a non-vegetarian, so they're probably in better shape than most here.

For vegans, it's of the utmost importance. They're not intaking more amino acids than necessary, so the process the calcium they get fine, but they need a source of it, and without dairy foods, it's somewhat difficult to find. If they don't find a supplement or a calcium-rich food that isn't dairy, they'll likely have an unpleasant encounter with osteoporosis not far down the road.

Originally posted by kichu


Because of what has to happen for the animal to get to your plate.

Well, people have to survive, and I think we have a right to enjoy what we consume just as much as any other animal. And if animals can kill each other for food, why must we refrain from doing so? We're only animals.

Originally posted by SolSkye
I suppose you'd save a zebra from getting torn to pieces by a pack of hyenas? How is standing idly by in that situation any different? The hyenas could get their energy from grass just as the zebra did but naturally their lot in life was different via evolution.

You obviously think humans are born vegetarians but somehow tainted by the availability/taste of meat, and I beg to differ. I think humans genetics, just like lions or hyenas, had chosen long long ago that they prefer a mixed diet with meat. Show me where I'm wrong and how vegatarians/vegans don't have to take all those vitamin supplements just to stay at a normal weight and then I'll agree with you

I can't compare myself to a pack of hyenas, so I WOULD stand by idly in that situation. You guys keep talking about us being at the top of the food chain, that means we're more intelligent than any animal on the planet. The brain of a hyena doesn't compare to that of a human being. They're not going to rationalize whether or not it's moral for them to eat the zebra. Humans have a choice. It is 100% not neccessary for humans to consume meat. But we like the taste. And it's easier for most to eat it and get protein, etc from it then to figure out where else to get that nutrition from. It's an extremely simple idea. Why would you compare what an animal eats to what a human eats? Due to our evolution, we have a choice. Due to their evolution, they don't.

I don't think we're born vegetarians, but I do think we're born with the capacity to see beyond what we've always done and known. Just because we've always eaten meat, doesn't mean it's neccessary now. But please read my posts carefully. I said if people want to eat meat that's fine, but I hope that one day the way the animal is raised and killed will change. Just because I don't eat meat doesn't mean I think everyone else should stop as well. One idea doesn't imply the other.

Like I said, PM me if you're really interested and I'll give you the details. For the record, I'm 5'9 and weigh 150 pounds. I GAINED 10 pounds in the last year. This is the most I've ever weighed.

Originally posted by Gwendolyn


And if animals can kill each other for food, why must we refrain from doing so? We're only animals.

You're a more evolved animal, are you not?

Originally posted by kichu


You're a more evolved animal, are you not?

I'm no better than any other animal. Why are we so much more evolved? Because we can look at ourselves and find out that every little fucked up detail of our lives? Because we can incite drama? Perhaps you are more 'evolved' because you can refute our animalistic instincts, but if they are our instincts, why should we repress them so? It's like sex...It's a natural instinct, and we can't get around that.

All this debate is exhausting, I'm going to eat dinner now. On the menu:

Grilled mushroom burger with spinach, lettuce, tomato with rice and grilled asparagus with vegan butter and a glass of soy milk. (Look at that! Protein!)

Originally posted by Gwendolyn


I'm no better than any other animal. Why are we so much more evolved? ....

Well, I think that's a whole other debate my friend. I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. Sounds to me like you've got some reading to do.

cya

Originally posted by kichu


Well, I think that's a whole other debate my friend. I'm sorry you feel that way about yourself. Sounds to me like you've got some reading to do.

cya

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. I mean, I'm no more important than any other being, and neither is anyone else...I don't like to indulge myself in useless feelings of self importance.

Anyway, I hope that you understand that I am not trying to attack you or your personal preferences. I think that whatever you choose to do with your life is cool. I'm not opposed to vegetarians. I just don't think we should all have to become vegans. It's a matter of preference.