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Yes, I only wanted to point out that some suicides are calculated and reasonable.Quote:
Originally posted by Aquanina
True. I wasn't referring to suicide bombing and such when talking about people who were mentally ill. I think that's a whole other subject entirely.
I'm not saying that reason is not and should not be used. But again your illustrating how it's being used before committing the act. I'm saying that reason alone is not enough to overcome the survival instinct at the moment of suicide.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
You were talking about sanity and reason. * Now you are only talking about animal instinct.
My father had suffered from cancer. *He submitted to treatment and fought it for a year and eventually won through to a remission. *The remission lasted several years, and then the cancer came back with a vengence. * The doctors told him that the pain would be overwhelming, that death would be slow but certain, and that the hospitalization would likely wipe out the family estate... the family would have to sell the house, and all that would be gained was an extra month of life.
So my father determined that Animal Instinct was a silly thing and easy enough to ignore. *Then he went into the garage with a rope and hung himself, leaving a note to warn my mother not to enter but rather to call the police.
Pain was escaped, and the Estate was left intact. *
Years later, my mother was informed that she had inoperable cancer. *The pain would be unbearable and beyond reach of any drug to ameliorate it. *And the hospital expences would wipe out the estate in order to simply gain an extra month of life. * So my mother signed a DNR (do not resusitate) Order and then probably took a fist full of laxatives, while allowing the hospital staff to suppose she had experienced a nasty side effect from the chemotherapy. *She died of dehydration. *
Had my parents been animals, intent upon respecting instinct, the doctors would have been far richer and somebody else now would be living in the family estate.
Same goes for 'tactical suicides'.
I don't feel for the person who killed themself. I feel sorry for their family and friends. Suicide is INCREDIBLY selfish and stupid.
The concept of suicide is so crazy to me. I don't really feel sympathetic to those who would be selfish enough to actually do such a thing.....That person inflicts so much pain on those around you. At the same time, I feel very sympathetic to those with personal problems and want help. Anyone willing to help themselves, or get help deserves sympathy and compassion, but committing suicide is like denying all of that. I am sure that sometimes those people feel as though nothing could help, but if they took responsibility for their own actions in the first place, they wouldn't have been in that situation.
Well, perhaps everybody is being a bit over critical of these people's decisions. People who are ordinarily not judgemental, are being very judgmental. Perhaps it is because these Suicides are not here to defend themselves.Quote:
Originally posted by Gwendolyn
The concept of suicide is so crazy to me. I don't really feel sympathetic to those who would be selfish enough to actually *do such a thing.....That person inflicts so much pain on those around you. At the same time, I feel very sympathetic to those with personal problems and want help. Anyone willing to help themselves, or get help deserves sympathy and compassion, but committing suicide is like denying all of that. I am sure that sometimes those people feel as though nothing could help, but if they took responsibility for their own actions in the first place, they wouldn't have been in that situation.
But allow me to point out a few things. First, that everybody dies. It is not a question of these people renouncing Immortality. They are simply moving up an event that will transpire soon enough in any case. Secondly, these people may be expressing that they are unwilling to live beneath a certain standard. This indicates an admirable sense of discernment and taste. While the rest of us are drudge enough to join the ranks of forlorn mediocrity, we should have some level of respect for those who look at that prospect and say "no thank you" to such an expansive field of crap.
And then I can think of a third matter. Any reasonably assessment would conclude that there is no shortage of people. Look at the unemployment rates. You would think that those who go on living would be a bit more grateful to those with the Grace to back out of the Competition.
This is particularly noticeable in Japan. A great many young people who take the School Tests and don't do particularly well, decide immediately that they do not want to go on with the Life Style of the kind of person who does not do well on such Tests, and they commit suicide. Nobody has the bad taste to say so, but these suicides do somewhat solve the problem which would have arisen regarding what possibly could be done to place such people. In a highly competitive World, what is to be done with those who, well, can't compete? We have Winners and Losers. But when once the Loser has lost, what really is the purpose of continuing the game any further? Can't these people suspect that the continuation of Life would henseforth be somewhat anticlimatic?
Perhaps the Real Problem is all this Winner and Loser Competiton Crap. Honestly, with the Barbaric Direction this Culture of World Market Capitalism is going... moving closer and closer to the lowest subsistence Capitalism (Engineers in India working for less than a McDonald's burger flipper makes!) I can hardly understand why entire multitudes are not ending it all. Willing to put up with any crap.
We should have respect for our Suicides who, if for nothing else, showed a personal dignity that expected more and better of Life then the rest of us have been willing to accept.
You know... it should probably be noted that not everyone can afford 'help'.
this is true. I took a course at Clark on scholarship day and it was about the effectiveness of psychotherapy. One question that the prof asked us was whether to recommend medication without medical guidance or therapy with no medication, as the patient could only afford one or the other. It was a pretty split decision, but anyway the guy had a good point. In reality, how many people actually get helped when they seek help?Quote:
Originally posted by A Lost Soul
You know... it should probably be noted that not everyone can afford 'help'.
Having sought + received 'help' I must say that it positively sucked. My first shrink was a counselor and she didn't seem to understand me at all. I could outwit her easily, so I don't think she was too bright. all her education and experience didn't give her any understanding of me at all. That, and she always took my parents side on everything.
Anyway I got rid of her in a compromise with my parents and instead started seeing a psychiatrist, you know one of those harvard-phd types. She seemed very friendly and I thought I'd have much more success with her. Anyway I opened up to her a bit, and as soon as things went sour with my parents over something, and I yelled at my dad, she positively framed me. She said that since I yelled at my dad, I was acting violent and she could call the police or send me to the loony bin. I actually cried when I heard that, because I knew I had to do whatever she told me or it was off to the police station or the crazy farm, and no more future for me.
So I ended up choking down mood stabilizing pills every day which at first made me feel numb and depressed, then angry and depressed, but incapable of actually getting angry enough to get it all out. Pretty miserable, anyway.
So two shtinks, two horrible experiences. So many people in the field just dehumanize their patients. The pills they make me swallow are like a f**king lobotamy, I swear. This is why a lot of people don't want help. My friends certainly wouldn't get help now, they saw how crazy I acted until I stabilized on the medication.
If you think about it, there's nothing surprising at all about suicide. Sometimes it feels like there really is no help out there, especially for kids in really bad situations at home and socially. It's a damn shame, I think, which is why I feel empathy for suicides.
That is very true. I guess it isn't fair to be so judgemental. I love my life so much despite the bad things that sometimes happen, and I know that I don't have as harsh a life as some, and some don't have the optimistic disposition I have tried to impress upon myself. Sometimes, there are people who slip through the cracks of society, and even if they have friends and family willing to help, they just get ignored. This is a sad thing. I don't know. I just can't imagine myself ever committing suicide. For some, it might look like a good answer.Quote:
Originally posted by A Lost Soul
You know... it should probably be noted that not everyone can afford 'help'.
Very true.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Well, perhaps everybody is being a bit over critical of these people's decisions. *People who are ordinarily not judgemental, are being very judgmental. *Perhaps it is because these Suicides are not here to defend themselves.
You people who have never even once thought for a second that it might be better off to end your life will never...ever understand what it's like in the mind of someone who is ready to take their life. I find that judging these people having no knowledge of the sort of hell they are going through is extremely unfair. I feel like there's too much to say...and it's just not worth it to try to change anyone's opinions. Nor do I really care to. I no longer have tolerance for ignorance and lack of empathy.
nina. well said.
having thoughts about suicide is one of the few crimes that in this sociey can get you locked up without trial or right of appeal. telling a psychiatrist you're suicidal will get one dumped in a psych ward faster than you can say "i want a lawyer".
there is no help available for those that are majorly depressed, unless you're one of the lucky rare few who are helps by meds.
if not, then you're treated effectively as a criminal or at least a major social nuisance. its all put down to a lack of willpower. i.e. you just don't want to be happy, and you're being antisocial by being depressed and you're making everyone else around you depressed.
but dammit, you can't check out! you must stay, and be miserable. it reminds me nothing more of some WW2 POW prison camp kommandant (sp?). THERE IS NO ESCAPE!!!! YOU VILL STAY AND BE MISERABLE!!!!
there is no compassion in this world for the depressed/suicidal. there is no help either for the majority, even if they can afford it. its a lousy situation.
a few years ago, my roommate attempted suicide. she took a whole bunch of pills, left a note, and went up onto the roof to die. i paniced and called the dogs out on her. i am so ashamed at having done that. i realise now, that if she wanted to die. i should have respected her wishes.
so these days, if someone tells me they're wanting to die, i ask honestly "how can i help?", and its up to them what they ask for.... its the only moral/ethical/compassionate way i can approach this.
after all. my loneliness matters less than the relief of the pain of their existence.
Suicide...
Unfortunately, it is a subject that is malignantly generalised by most people, as we've seen here, as a selfish and stupid act.
I'm not saying it never is. For this topic, along with almost everything else in this world, everything depends on circumstances.
However, if a person feels they would rather take their chances with death than continue living, if indeed living is painful, and if they take themselves out without hurting anyone else (directly physically), then why be angry at them?
You may think they are being heartless by causing family and friends grief; but anyone who brings a child into the world must be prepared for all the possible consequences, and be respectful of their child's chosen path.
You may think that they are throwing the 'biggest gift' we have away, but who are we to judge the importance or value of a life?
Also, usually it requires a lot of bravery to face the unknown possibilities of where you go when you die.
I think it is cruel to prevent people from committing suicide if they are in a lot of pain (physically or mentally), and if they have thought long and hard about their decision, and have no second thoughts.
-nods nods-
Agreed.^^^^^^^^^
It's hard to generalize, fairly, on something like suicide, because it is an end that stems from an infinite number of circumstances. It's definitely not a subject that can be looked at with any great degree of objectivity, because the worth of life itself, is about the most Subjective..well...Subject....that there is.
I disagree.Quote:
Originally posted by Bradybaker
No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.
Well, as I have pointed out, or tried to point out, that some people really have come to a "dead end" in their lives -- disgrace, disease.... some real and actual condition of intolerable pain and hopelessness for which there is indeed no possible mitigation. These people will not be talking about suicide, as they realize that talking about it would only marshal those Social Forces that could prevent its commission.Quote:
Originally posted by voidofform
nina. well said.
having thoughts about suicide is one of the few crimes that in this sociey can get you locked up without trial or right of appeal. telling a psychiatrist you're suicidal will get one dumped in a psych ward faster than you can say "i want a lawyer".
In discussing suicide and suicidal impulses, we must also consider some people are not being entirely rational, and that they are not at any real "dead end" -- that they are not facing an incurable and painful disease, or some horrible disgrace that would send one to prison, or that continued life would drag down one's family and community into ruin. Sometimes the impulse to suicide is pathological and unjustified to any reasonable evaluation of the situation. For instance, there are cases of young men feeling suicidal because they have been jilted by some girl friends. Now, anybody who has been around the block a bit knows for an absolute certainty that while being jilted is not the most pleasant of occurances, it can only be classified as a temporary frustration -- a mere bump in the road of life. And yet thousands of young men each year commit suicide under such circumstances. Then there are suicides triggered by career or educational frustrations -- losing a job or not being accepted into some University Program. yes, where all of one's plans had been single-mindedly in one direction and focus, then one might consider ending one's life rather than having to start all over again and plan a New Direction. Again, this brings to mind so many Japanese Suicides, where career frustrations so often impel suicides. Although I cannot be certain, I suspect that there are alternatives open to these young people.... not the first choice, but still enough possibilities still open to be able to make some positive contribution before what could be a much postponed natural demise.
This may be highly inappropriate, but I know its wrong and I'm going to do it anyway.
**Rides on the marry go round called life....notes that it goes round, not that it ends at any particular point. At times, the conductor is a royal ass, yes...but while on the ride, many people get plastic horsey saddle rash, a lot of people get the broken seat, and some people might have snuck on...but whatever the reason, who can really look at anyone else from any point of view and say "I know why (Why not)"**
I just merely stated that I have no sympathy for it. Although, I do agree and disagree with much of what has been said here. I don't really feel like quoting it right now, but I'm glad no one here has been hostile about it. (Spending time at Gwen's house, got to go to bed early. Stuff to do.)
Thanks for all your input.
Insensitivity is just emotional stupidity.Quote:
Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
..........I just merely stated that I have no sympathy for it.............
Your insensibility is not an argument for anything... just a confession of dullness.
You don't exactly have a bleeding heart, leo.
I agree and disagree also. I would feel slightly sory for them but I also believe that they knew what they were going to do and they probably told have the world before they decided to do it (extra-drama). Sadly, I believe taht nearly everyone ahs thoughts of suicide at one point in their life but only a hanfdul of the 6 billion (w/e) are 'stupid' enough to carry it through. Life has its ups and downs, when you go down, there always has to be an up... eventually :)!
Personally I think this is a very foolish topic. If you want to discuss suicide, that's fine, but with an opening such as "no sympathy for suicide?" What does that even mean? What if it happened in your family? It seems mindless to start a topic such as this in such a capacity. I mean, frankly, who cares whether you would show sympathy or not for a complete stranger? What difference does it make? It's completely irrelevant; if you are going to talk about it get to the crux of the issue, instead of needlessly stating such an ignorant and narrow view. Personally I don't think anyone who hasn't had to deal with suicide in his or her family should have anything to say about it one way or the other; you couldn't possibly understand it.
ok, what if the "up" is a bullet in the head?
If everyone has thoughts of suicide at some point in their life, but most of us have the willpower not to, then it stands to reason that it's no more right to criticize a suicide than it is to criticize a cigarette smoker or a fat person who can't stop eating donuts.
Also, I still don't see why some people here are dismissing suicide as an act of insanity. Reapply the above argument here: There's nothing crazy about smoking a cigarette even though it will kill you, or eating a donut even though you know it'll only make you fat. If a person sits back, evaluates the human condition, and rationally decides that he doesn't want to be a part of it, then suicide (in any form) is the only rational choice. Seriously, imagine yourself looking out at the world and all its injustice, all the bastards at the top and the potential bastards at the bottom, waiting to turn the tables so they can start the cycle of inhumanity all over again. If I read a history book from start to finish, my reaction would probably be something along the lines of "holy shit. if this is what it means to be human, I WANT OUT." If I looked out my window and could see anywhere in the world, I'd only have to look in a few places before the same reaction would seize me: "I WANT OUT!" If I could see the world and humans for what they really are, I'd want out, and I think you would, too.
And you assume that because I post the most recent suicide in my life, that is the only one of which I have had to deal?
Assumptions are dangerous.
Opinions are that, and to say an opinion related topic is foolish is just as childish as the opinion itself. Its really difficult to gauge this one way or another, since suicides aren't typically found amongst the discussees. (As someone pointed out earlier.)
Therefore, whether you meant to say that I have no experience with family related suicide, which I STILL have no sympathy for, is a little preempitive. I had an uncle hang himself, one of which I spent a good deal of my childhood with. I was sad, yes, but sympathy for what could have possibly made him believe that was his only option (or him, for his defeated outlook) no. After all, who among the dead have voice to say thier choice was wise or not? And who among the living can answer for them?
Like I said before. I just said I had no sympathy for suicides. This isn't philosophy, it's my opinion.
Sympathy is not an opinion. Sympathy is an emotion. And while we are at it, I really can't see how you can make thoughtless apathy into a positive intellectual stance. You can't really say that a mindless clod like yourself is taking a position. Not having a thought in one's head is not the same as having an opinion. Not caring is not an opinion.Quote:
Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
Like I said before. I just said I had no sympathy for suicides. This isn't philosophy, it's my opinion.
Indeed, the lifelessness expressed by your utter lack of feeling, matched with your intellectual vacuity, one would wonder, whether if you could bring some animation to your thought processes, that you would not be a larger fan of Suicide, as you seem so dead already.
Stuping to insults huh? Well, I won't lower to that level. I respect people who maintain. Oratory is fine, but obusing it is just showing off.
For a such a figurehead of sympathy, your words are quite pompus. Intellegence has nothing to do with this, and yes, not having sympathy is an opinion. Just because you choose to not agree with something someone else says doesn't mean you have to spout derogatory phrazes at that person. Indeed, this makes you more of a "mindless clod" than anyone.Quote:
Originally posted by Leo Volont
Sympathy is not an opinion. Sympathy is an emotion. And while we are at it, I really can't see how you can make thoughtless apathy into a positive intellectual stance. You can't really say that a mindless clod like yourself is taking a position. Not having a thought in one's head is not the same as having an opinion. Not caring is not an opinion.
Indeed, the lifelessness expressed by your utter lack of feeling, matched with your intellectual vacuity, one would wonder, whether if you could bring some animation to your thought processes, that you would not be a larger fan of Suicide, as you seem so dead already.
And you say that you're a fan of suicide? You seem alive enough to post, so you must not be as much of a fan as you claim, for I do not think you have committed suicide yet.
Don't you also claim to be a Catholic? A true catholic would never condone suicide, I though. I mean, there is the small matter of the "Thou shalt not kill" rule.....I thought that included yourself. I'm not even a Christian, but I'm just saying...
:lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally posted by Gwendolyn
And you say that you're a fan of suicide? You seem alive enough to post
Sorry, this just cracked me up...