No Sympathy for Suicide

Today, I found out that this guy that goes to my school killed himself last night. I really don't give a rats ass, and feel nothing for the guy. Some people might think that's cruel. But come on, your not really that bad off until you're dead.

What are your thoughts on suicide? Personally I think that people who kill themselves aren't victims of anything, so I don't really feel sorry for them. I DO NOT condemn them for it, but they knew what they were doing before hand.

What are your ideas/opinions?

I both agree and disagree with you on this one. (Had ta leave the poll blank. :wink:)

On one hand, NOBODY should feel that suicide is a way out of anything. It's not. I don't condone it in any way and I think it to be the most self-centered approach to solving a problem that one can take; pushing aside whatever greivance you'd bring family and friends for the egotistical indulgence of "solving your problem." I think it's ignorant, misguided, unecessary and, in the cases of many spoiled, overprivileged (sp) Western youths, just plain pathetic.

HOWEVER, you have to realize that many people are driven to see this as their only alternative, which is a tragedy all in itself. Behind many suicides are deep, often well-hidden problems that may have silently tormented the "victim" for ages. Sure, with our rational minds we might have thought to seek help, or any Other alternative to suicide, but some people, obviously, just don't have that sort of rational wiring, especially when something's pushed them to that threshold where they start wondering if life is really worth it.

A main reason we feel we can ridicule something like suicide is because, when faced with even the most traumatic situations, you and/or I wouldn't even think of suicide as an option. We percieve life that way because of the experiences we've had and an established philosophy that suicide is a selfish, horrible act. Some people just haven't had the good fortune to realize this, or have been so consumed by problems they don't know how to get rid of that they are driven to suicide because they don't know any other way out.

So, while it's nothing to sympathize over because it's obviously, according to people like us, the wrong thing to do, I can't help but be sympathetic toward the fact that so many people don't develop psycho- or socialogically enough to escape that phase before they decide to take their life.

I agree with Bobby on this on, but also with Oneironaut.

I feel no sympathy whatsoever for these people in relation to their actual suicide. Death is the end. Life is existance. To throw life away 'cos you're to scared or lacking in will to face it, and deal with it, is not an act deserving of sympathy.

BUT I feel sympatheic toawrds these people in relation to the factors which have brought them to consider suicide as a way out. The shit that obviously has happened to them in order for them to contemplate suicide is deserving of sympathy. Provided, of course, their problems aren't ENTIRELY of their own making.[/i]

You know what bothers me the most about suicide?

After they kill themselves, there are memorials all over school, everyone's crying (well, alot of people) there are people saying how much of a great person she/he was, and how he/she never deserved to die.

You know what? Half of these people talking are the ones that made the person feel like shit to begin with, which contributed to the suicide.

I generally have sympathy for anyone who struggles with depression.

And while yes, suicide is like the ultimate in selfish behaviour, I wouldn't go so far as to harshly judge someone who committed suicide, until I am in their shoes. I would urge people to take a suicide as an opportunity to learn about that person's behaviour prior to their death, so you can look for signs of it in others.

So by all means...feel sympathy. Learn what that person was going through. Prevent it in the future.


edit: btw, this is an interesting topic, I think it would fit right in Extended Discussion

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Originally posted by OpheliaBlue
I generally have sympathy for anyone who struggles with depression.

And while yes, suicide is like the ultimate in selfish behaviour, I wouldn't go so far as to harshly judge someone who committed suicide, until I am in their shoes. I would urge people to take a suicide as an opportunity to learn about that person's behaviour prior to their death, so you can look for signs of it in others.

So by all means...feel sympathy. Learn what that person was going through. Prevent it in the future.


edit: btw, this is an interesting topic, I think it would fit right in Extended Discussion

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I was going to say something similar to this. No one can really know or understand what it's like to be suicidal until you've been in those shoes. They aren't fun shoes to be in.

A close friend of mine (Susan) who I also worked with for about 2 years, committed suicide about 4 months ago.

She had a 2 year old son. In my opinion, her suicide was a SELFISH ACT.

How in the hell can you have a little child that depends on you and kill yourself? The boy's father and Susan weren't together, but they shared custody of him. She was around my age (around 25). She came from a wealthy family who never let her go without anything. So even though she wasn't one of those people living on the street that committed suicide, she still (obviously) felt that there was no alternative.

I just don't get it. It was quite a shock to everyone. Her younger sister found her hanging in a closet.

Can you imagine finding your brother or sister dead, hanging inside a closet?? Can you imagine trying to tell a 2 year old that his mommy is dead and never coming back?? That was extremely selfish, in my opinion, to make her family deal with that.

Some people have sicknesses that most will never understand...including themselves.

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
Today, I found out that this guy that goes to my school killed himself last night. I really don't give a rats ass, and feel nothing for the guy. Some people might think that's cruel. But come on, your not really that bad off until you're dead.

What are your thoughts on suicide? Personally I think that people who kill themselves aren't victims of anything, so I don't really feel sorry for them. I DO NOT condemn them for it, but they knew what they were doing before hand.

What are your ideas/opinions?

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Yes, since it is none of your business, and you don't seem to be much of an empathic soul, one can understand that you would be unruffled by almost any event that did not directly concern yourself.

However, as to the impact of a Suicide on society, it is rather immense. No man is an island. Even fairly isolated people still have parents, brothers, sisters. And of course these people -- these relatives -- are seriously impacted by a suicide in their family.

But for people who have forged ties to their communities and reached out in friendship and employment, then a suicide tears at the organic fiber of society.

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Originally posted by Aquanina
Some people have sicknesses that most will never understand...including themselves.

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I wish I understood. My family has a predisposition for suicide. Four so far, cousins, aunts, uncles.... I wonder what I would do if life became unbearable.

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Originally posted by wombing
this seems to be the last *area one should generalize.

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yup

I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

yah i agree with wombing too....

also umm most of us live because its better then death...for some people its the other way around. and i think ppl generally want whats best for them...

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Originally posted by ~~o/~~~~~/~~~~shark!


also umm most of us live because its better then death...for some people its the other way around. and i think ppl generally want whats best for them...

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Ohhh... deep.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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Actually, suicide motivated by despair can be quite reasonable. Have you ever heard of a "fate worse than death"? Suppose a person who is about to suffer from a ravaging and very painful disease, or a person who is about to be thoroughly disgraced and humiliated. In the face of these terrible and unbearable possibilities, the choice of a painless death might be by far the rational choice.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont
Actually, suicide motivated by despair can be quite reasonable. *Have you ever heard of a "fate worse than death"? *Suppose a person who is about to suffer from a ravaging and very painful disease, or a person who is about to be thoroughly disgraced and humiliated. *In the face of these terrible and unbearable possibilities, the choice of a painless death might be by far the rational choice.

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I think it's possible to reason rationally up to the point of death. But to actually committ the act goes against virtually every instinct that all animals have evolved.

The instinct to survive is stronger than any other.

In my opinion, suicide is the most selfish act someone can commit. Sorry it's short, but that's pretty much my only opinion on it.
I spose if someone has cancer and knows they have only a short amount of time in their life left, and they have a lot of pain from it, then there maybe an excuse then.

keep in mind too folks, a 'single cause theory' doesn't usually apply

plenty of people are super selffish...so why don't they all commit suicide?

plenty of people are really depressed...some are still living

several people were abused, in despair, dying of incurable diseases...etc etc

there are several factors that go into that downward spiral that leads to pulling that trigger, where yes, a line is crossed that one can hardly call sane or rational, as brady pointed out

my folks are shrinks, and my step-dad worked with several suicidal adolescents, where he pointed out that in almost every case, the patient goes into an almost hypnotic, trance-like state just prior to attempting (or succeeding)

unless we are studying the subject carefully, and have a degree in psychology, it's very difficult to pin point the reasons or causes that lead to someone killing him or herself, and extreme opinions on the matter would probably make the person worse, say for example, if your best friend told you he was going to kill himself, and you say "GOD that is the most selfish act you could possibly do! You are not a victim, you're just feeling sorry for yourself, you need attention etc etc," it would be a fairly ignorant step, and possibly drive the person more towards the suicide than away. Sympathy is very important in a situation like this. I don't mean placate the person in a condescending or overly "poor baby" kind of way....

You know, I'll ask my folks. I'm sure there is a protocol for this type of thing. Might be useful information to have in case any of us run into a person like this.

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Originally posted by bradybaker

I think it's possible to reason rationally up to the point of death. But to actually committ the act goes against virtually every instinct that all animals have evolved.

The instinct to survive is stronger than any other.

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You were talking about sanity and reason. Now you are only talking about animal instinct.

My father had suffered from cancer. He submitted to treatment and fought it for a year and eventually won through to a remission. The remission lasted several years, and then the cancer came back with a vengence. The doctors told him that the pain would be overwhelming, that death would be slow but certain, and that the hospitalization would likely wipe out the family estate... the family would have to sell the house, and all that would be gained was an extra month of life.

So my father determined that Animal Instinct was a silly thing and easy enough to ignore. Then he went into the garage with a rope and hung himself, leaving a note to warn my mother not to enter but rather to call the police.

Pain was escaped, and the Estate was left intact.

Years later, my mother was informed that she had inoperable cancer. The pain would be unbearable and beyond reach of any drug to ameliorate it. And the hospital expences would wipe out the estate in order to simply gain an extra month of life. So my mother signed a DNR (do not resusitate) Order and then probably took a fist full of laxatives, while allowing the hospital staff to suppose she had experienced a nasty side effect from the chemotherapy. She died of dehydration.

Had my parents been animals, intent upon respecting instinct, the doctors would have been far richer and somebody else now would be living in the family estate.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
I'm surprised to say that agree 100% with wombing.

But I would add a key point.

No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with ya there, brady. If the bad in the world outweighs the good, suicide is the only rational choice. In fact, it's irrational to go about living in denial, hoping that one day the demons in your brain will just up and leave. They won't, not without medical help or a drastic change in life condition.

That being said, I still think suicide isn't a good choice. It's basically like saying "my unhappiness trumps my fucking up everyone who cared about me." It's just a dick move.

On the other hand, I think it's bullshit to try to understand suicide if you've never seriously considered it yourself. I don't talk about it with most people I know in RL, but thoughts of suicide have come on and off throughout my whole life. Not that I would ever go through with it, for the above reason. I think at the very center of the concept is the mentality of saying "F**K YOU" to anyone who wants you stay alive despite your misery. I personally think keeping a suicidal person alive against his will is the ultimate form of torture. Don't you see, a true suicidal doesn't care about breaking hearts or what the future holds for him, he only wants to die. Just, die. Death is one thing that everyone deserves, especially if they want it, for christ's sake! Why is everyone so afraid of death? especially to the point where they rain on the parades of people who aren't!

Anyway in summary, it's cruel to critisize a suicide for wanting to die, and it's pointless to let his death get you down. Most (there are exceptions of course, like emo SOB's) people who kill themselves aren't trying to get you down, they're just trying to get out of this nightmare called life. Give them a freaking a break, but don't feel obligated to soak them with insincere tears, either.

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Originally posted by bradybaker
No rational individual is capable of committing suicide. Even if they are completely rational and sane up until the moment they pull the trigger, they cannot commit the act unless in a state of temporary insanity.

Committing the act is not a 'choice' that one makes in the conventional sense of the word, its only possible when the person is mentally unstable--obviously this isn't their fault.

So I think that this alone would negate the 'selfishness' of the act.

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Very well said. I agree completely. By sicknesses I was referring to mental illness.

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Originally posted by Aquanina


Very well said. I agree completely. By sicknesses I was referring to mental illness.

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Odd.

What of Tactical Suicides? In many parts of the World there are people who make the patriotic decision to die for a Greater Cause. This certainly is no 'mental illness'. People can reasonably and rationally evaluate the hopes and the potentials of Life as they know it and determine that the most they can make of their Life is to give it for the sake of their Community. To say that such people are 'mentally ill' is to rob them of the respect they deserve, from the very community they have given their lives to serve.

Indeed, there is the fact that life becomes unbearable sometimes. But again, if you have consiousness, energy, and the knowledge of what is wrong with your life, then why do you not fight against that untill the very end?

I understand ending one's life because of unbearable pain, or suffering, these people are terminally ill anyway. They're not so selfish, and yet, at the same time, they are. Really there's no way to pass judgement on someone's decision, because no one will ever know the precise circumstances for the act.

I think I may have been a little unclear.

I don't have sympathy for the person. I didn't say it was wrong to do. There are situations where it would, in fact, be ideal. I'm just saying that I think that if you do choose that route, you are choosing the path of the most arrogant, self important person that you can. Woe is me, my life is so unbearable! Who's to say, for example, that anyone's life will not reach thier level of 'agony' and that person come out just fine?

You are only dead, when you are dead. Think you're important? Give about 2 generations of time, and no one will remember your name. You're only as important as the people around you, who DO care about you, including yourself. So ultimately, if you don't care about you enough to keep from killing yourself, I don't give a fuck who you are, you're just dust to me.

So yeah, some people have it better than others. That'll always be the way it is, no matter what the magnitude. Big fucking deal. No one promised you anything when you were born, so why is it that people ASSUME that they will be treated a certain way? Dignity, fairness, all thoughts of comparison are human ideas developed because we take everything so fucking personally. You have to be selfish to survive, and at the same time, you have to realize that other people are selfish, so that you can say "Screw you." to the people you don't like, and indulge the people that you do like.

No one said you were going to be treated fairly. There's a reason that life is so chaotic. It's breif, and everyone will die in time. So whats the point in calling it quits, if you'll get there soon enough anyway?

And just incase you're wondering, I have contemplted it. Had a 38 special ready to roll. Know what made me not do it? I GAVE A SHIT ABOUT ME.

Thats the first step to other people giving a shit.

Ok first off, there are various reasons to why a person would kill themself; you are troubling on what would your sympathetic stance be, as not to the actual fact, wich is the suicide.
What I think people should look is for the actual suicide fact, because any action that caused it is the action on wich your priciple would face a sympathetic value.

What could those facts be on a case like this; the three most common forces around the act of killing one self are: social stress, manic depression(caused by social stress normaly), and idealistic stance.

When someone has dificult social problems, they tend to draw themselfs away from society, and become very defensive and evasive towards any social behaviour. Normaly people on with this problem don't get around enough with themselfs to solve their state, wich only leads them into getting more shut and eventualy depressed. When people eventually hit the depresion, full on with social problems that keep growing due to the fact the person hasn't been able to help himself out, they normally blame themselfs for all this, and end in several suicide attempts, with little chance they would actually succeed, being scared still, but facing the idea of death each day making it more and more probable next time they will succed by not being scared anymore. So if any sympathy needs to be gone around a case like this, it should be on the fact that society hasn't bring it self upwards to help this tipe of people who give you lots of times for you to help.

In other cases when people are dealing with manic depression, it is mostly caused by most of what I said above, but in a more prolonged timeline, wich carries a person to the limits in wich he can no longer deal with his self loathing, completely separetad of social life, and just decides to end it. Again, this people are really easy to be aware off, enough to try and help, encourging them into society, life, but if this person is too depressed then its just better to get profesional help for them in a way.

Now the Idealistic suicide, is very different from the above, its more of an comitment towards death and lifes achivements, sort of like Socrates, this is when people kill themselfs to prove a point, some may kill themselfs to prove they love someone like others may just do it to prove society wrong. In this cases your sympathy would derive more on where you stand with this persons ideals, and if there would of been some other way besides death, who was there to help him?, and those sort of things.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont



Odd.

What of Tactical Suicides? *In many parts of the World there are people who make the patriotic decision to die for a Greater Cause. *This certainly is no 'mental illness'. * People can reasonably and rationally evaluate the hopes and the potentials of Life as they know it and determine that the most they can make of their Life is to give it for the sake of their Community. *To say that such people are 'mentally ill' is to rob them of the respect they deserve, from the very community they have given their lives to serve.

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True. I wasn't referring to suicide bombing and such when talking about people who were mentally ill. I think that's a whole other subject entirely.