No Sympathy for Suicide

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn


And you say that you're a fan of suicide? You seem alive enough to post, so you must not be as much of a fan as you claim, for I do not think you have committed suicide yet.

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Seeing the utility of suicide for those that have reached a real dead end in life is not the same as being a Fan of Suicide.

When my father came out of remission and he was told that his cancer would come back with a vengence, and that the remainder of his lifesavings would be eaten up by futile medical measures intended to mitigate the pain and only extend his life by the shortest of increments -- he committed suicide. And I understand why he did it. Even approve.

But that hardly makes me a Fan of Suicide.

I'll tell you what. I hope that you and your family can see such desparation, and you still be so cavalier about it. See if you are so funny then when your parents are writhing hopelessly in pain. See how funny you are then.

That has pretty much nothing to do with what either of us replied to you. This wasn't a funny topic in the first place. The only person who even thought of it that way so far has been you, apparently.

You're pretty good at lingual and gramatical manipulation of conversations. I'll give you that much. I'm not going for that crap though, and you're point still falls flat on its face.

:makeitstop:

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Originally posted by Leo Volont


Seeing the utility of suicide for those that have reached a real dead end in life is not the same as being a Fan of Suicide.

When my father came out of remission and he was told that his cancer would come back with a vengence, and that the remainder of his lifesavings would be eaten up by futile medical measures intended to mitigate the pain and only extend his life by the shortest of increments -- he committed suicide. *And I understand why he did it. *Even approve.

But that hardly makes me a Fan of Suicide. *

I'll tell you what. *I hope that you and your family can see such desparation, and you still be so cavalier about it. *See if you are so funny then when your parents are writhing hopelessly in pain. *See how funny you are then.

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I've seen my family and friends in desperation. I've been there myself. Don't try to pull the old, insult trick, Leo. Being funny isn't even on the bill. I love people, and I have respect for people no matter what they do with their life, or don't do with it. By telling us your story, you are supposing that you yourself will get sympathy. And I'm sorry bout' your loss. But that's the harsh reality.

And being in unending physical pain is different than someone who is vying for someone else's sympathy. Committing suicide because your life isn't that great is giving in to all of your own irresponsibilities. You can always change your life, and suicide is just an easy out. It's not my place to judge those who hurt themselves or who are very emotionally unstable, but for most of the suicides I have personally heard about, the reasons for those deaths were for completely petty reasons.

Gwendolyn:

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You can always change your life...[/b]

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whoa since when?

Flying-Eagle:

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but only a hanfdul of the 6 billion (w/e) are 'stupid' enough to carry it through. Life has its ups and downs, when you go down, there always has to be an up... eventually ![/b]

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yah this is a lie, there doesn't "have to be an up...eventually"...That's false hope and being unrealistic. I'm pretty sure in the case of Leo'd dad...there was never going to be an "up...eventually !"..pfft...

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Originally posted by ~~o/~~~~~/~~~~shark!
Gwendolyn:

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You can always change your life...

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whoa since when?

[/b]

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When it isn't in the case of physical pain, but emotional, all you have to do is take responsibility for your life.

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Originally posted by Gwendolyn


When it isn't in the case of physical pain, but emotional, all you have to do is take responsibility for your life.

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Well lots of strong emotions come from chemical imbalances, so that isn't always true.

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Originally posted by Leo Volont+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo Volont)</div>

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Sympathy is not an opinion. *Sympathy is an emotion. *And while we are at it, I really can't see how you can make thoughtless apathy into a positive intellectual stance. *You can't really say that a mindless clod like yourself is taking a position. *Not having a thought in one's head is not the same as having an opinion. *Not caring is not an opinion. *

Indeed, the lifelessness expressed by your utter lack of feeling, matched with your intellectual vacuity, one would wonder, whether if you could bring some animation to your thought processes, that you would not be a larger fan of Suicide, as you seem so dead already.[/b]

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Not caring is an opinion. it's a veritable way of life, in fact, and a philosophy. Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion, it's something that pains the heart of the feeler and brings about pointless sentimentality and irrational feelings and actions. I say there's a lot to be said for simply not caring, because to feel someone else's pain, especially when they don't want you to, is pointless. Empathy is necessary, but sympathy is like pity, both of which are degrading to the person being sympathized for. It's an accusation of weakness and a presumption that the feeler of sympathy is somehow better off than the subject. Sympathy then is a side effect of pretention, a presumed right to share another's negative emotions because you have a simpler life. You can afford to feel the false sensation of simulated pain, because somewhere deep inside you want to share the person's misfortune. You envy their clearly defined problems and monochromatic distinctions of pain and joy, the simplicity and melodrama of a life lived more closely to the edge of human endurance. If someone wants sympathy, they're greedy. If you give someone sympathy without their consent, you're greedy.

<!--QuoteBegin-Sam
After all, who among the dead have voice to say thier choice was wise or not? And who among the living can answer for them?

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I like this. I don't think it's our place to question the dead, and much less is it our right to answer them or pretend to understand them.

basically what I'm saying is, don't PRESUME to know how I feel, I don't want to share my pain and I don't want you sticking your happiness in my face. That's how I feel about sympathy.

As stated in the beginning this topic is far to broad and complex to be generalized.
So going back and forth and taking what one person says and putting into the context of another's is useless.




Abstract thought ~
If you are an ultimate control freak and feel you are the man. The destiny you choose is in your hands. You pave your own path.
Does this mean you have to kill yourself to be in control of what none of us are in control of?
This is not meant to be taken in serious light. But I have seen some egos that you could probably get them to believe this. :bluesmile:

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Originally posted by Dangeruss
Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion, it's something that pains the heart of the feeler and brings about pointless sentimentality and irrational feelings and actions. I say there's a lot to be said for simply not caring, because to feel someone else's pain, especially when they don't want you to, is pointless. Empathy is necessary, but sympathy is like pity, both of which are degrading to the person being sympathized for. It's an accusation of weakness and a presumption that the feeler of sympathy is somehow better off than the subject. Sympathy then is a side effect of pretention, a presumed right to share another's negative emotions because you have a simpler life. You can afford to feel the false sensation of simulated pain, because somewhere deep inside you want to share the person's misfortune. You envy their clearly defined problems and monochromatic distinctions of pain and joy, the simplicity and melodrama of a life lived more closely to the edge of human endurance.

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This is a very one-sided and prideful way of looking at things. In fact, you have not defined what sympathy is: you have only defined what, in SOME situations, causes it.

Now, sure, it's hard to feel sympathy towards someone you don't know or care about, like for instance, someone you hear of in the news. In this situation, what you say MIGHT be true.

But if it's someone you do know personally, what you are saying is not necessarily true. I once thought as you do, actually, but have changed my opinion somewhat of late.

One feels sympathy towards someone we know for a myriad of reasons. Some of the reasons you describe might be true. But there are other reasons too, which in some cases, can totally overwhelm the more petty reasons you describe.

For instance, if you truly care about somebody, and you know their suffering, you may have a strong desire to see their life get better, perhaps because you think they deserve this.

It's often said that sympathy is a powerful aphrodisiac, but I believe this to be false. In such cases, the attraction is not bourne out of sympathy, some twisted desire to share another's suffering. Rather, sympathy is felt because of the same reason the attraction is felt, that being that you care about the person, and are emotionally attached to them.

From what you say, it seems that you have not felt, or perhaps unable to feel, this emotion. If that's the case, I am truly sorry for you, because inability to sympathise makes you an incomplete human being. Like it or not, sympathy is an inextricable part of the human psychology. You can deal with it however you want, you can characterise it as prideful, perverse, and arrogant. This may be true in some cases. But by doing this, you overlook the cases where it is not.

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Originally posted by The Blue Meanie

It's often said that sympathy is a powerful aphrodisiac, but I believe this to be false. *In such cases, the attraction is not bourne out of sympathy, some twisted desire to share another's suffering. *Rather, sympathy is felt because of the same reason the attraction is felt, that being that you care about the person, and are emotionally attached to them.
From what you say, it seems that you have not felt, or perhaps unable to feel, this emotion. *If that's the case, I am truly sorry for you, because inability to sympathise makes you an incomplete human being. *Like it or not, sympathy is an inextricable part of the human psychology. *You can deal with it however you want, you can characterise it as prideful, perverse, and arrogant. *This may be true in some cases. *But by doing this, you overlook the cases where it is not.

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No, I don't believe sympathy is felt out of the same reason as attraction. I know what sympathy is, and I can and have felt sympathetic to those who I am not emotionally attached to, or attracted too. Although the sympathy is definately greater towards a loved one, or a great friend, that doesn't mean that just because a person isn't loved or a friend of yours, that you simply cannot feel sympathy for them. Maybe you have problems demonstrating sympathy towards those you don't know. But that doesn't mean it's impossible.

Also, what do you mean by a twisted desire to share another's suffering? Say your best friend is going through an absolutely horrible time. You have no desire to share his suffering, at least somewhat? Maybe it's not desire, but if someone very close to you is experiencing something horrible, you don't just stand there and be happy about it, in most cases you CAN'T just stand there and be happy about it. Because this person is so close to you, their pain would probably be felt by you, even if it is only in small portions. Pain is suffering, therefore you believe that you cannot share in anothers suffering? Or merely that it is sick to desire to share in another's suffering?

I was taking a very pessimistic angle with that post. Yes, I know what sympathy is and I know what it feels like, I'm not just some cold bastard who doesn't feel sorry for anyone but himself. Of course I feel sympathy, I just wish I didn't sometimes. I've seen a few bad examples in my short lifetime which, frankly, skew my opinion. Sympathy is of course a necessary human emotion, what bothers me is when it goes in the wrong places. I've seen people wheedle and beg for it, each with their own gimmick for gaining it.

I don't feel comfortable when people are sympathetic toward me. When I'm down I don't like to see my pain rub off on the people around me because it makes me feel worse. I'd rather the people around me empathize with me, but instead of getting upset when I don't appear well, simply give me the freedom of being the same on the outside as I am on the inside without pressuring me with expectations.

Despite my personal distrust of sympathy, I admit that in most cases, sympathy isn't a bad thing. Sympathy is something everyone needs a little more of, but we should remember that the only person who knows whether he deserves sympathy is the one we are sympathizing for. The people Sam described in his opening post were figuratively walking around like zombies, paralyzed with sympathy for the kid who deserved a lot more than to be cared for only after his death. In the cases of these people, no small portion of sympathy comes from guilt. The part rooted in guilt is the selfish part, the part rooted in empathy is the humane part. Anyway what bother me (and Sam I think) are the people who aren't genuine, the kind who feel sympathy for no reason or for the wrong reasons and are only trying to cover their own guilt.

Dangeruss:

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I was taking a very pessimistic angle with that post. Yes, I know what sympathy is and I know what it feels like, I'm not just some cold bastard who doesn't feel sorry for anyone but himself.

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Yes, you certainly were being very pessimistic and negative. Let's revisit that:

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Not caring is an opinion. it's a veritable way of life, in fact, and a philosophy. Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion

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This is pretty much the complete opposite of what you are saying now.

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I don't feel comfortable when people are sympathetic toward me. When I'm down I don't like to see my pain rub off on the people around me because it makes me feel worse. I'd rather the people around me empathize with me, but instead of getting upset when I don't appear well, simply give me the freedom of being the same on the outside as I am on the inside without pressuring me with expectations.

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Yes, you made the fact that you do not feel comfortable with others' sympathy very clear in your previous post:

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Sympathy then is a side effect of pretention, a presumed right to share another's negative emotions because you have a simpler life.

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So, I ask you this: by what authority do you judge it to be not within the rights of others to feel sympathy for you?

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Despite my personal distrust of sympathy, I admit that in most cases, sympathy isn't a bad thing. Sympathy is something everyone needs a little more of, but we should remember that the only person who knows whether he deserves sympathy is the one we are sympathizing for.

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Again, this is a COMPLETE reversal and a backtrack of what you said earlier:

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Sympathy is a vile and pointless emotion, it's something that pains the heart of the feeler and brings about pointless sentimentality and irrational feelings and actions.
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sympathy is like pity, both of which are degrading to the person being sympathized for. It's an accusation of weakness and a presumption that the feeler of sympathy is somehow better off than the subject.

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To be completely honest, I think that you are being incredibly two-faced about this whole issue. You make a long, emphatic and definite denouncement of the very idea of sympathy, and then proceed to retract the vast majority of what you said, turing it around to make it seem far more benign. In future, you may wish to consider sorting out your own opinions and feelings objectively and sensibly, BEFORE making them public, and then having to later retract them because you realise exactly how callous, extreme, and cold your beliefs, as you stated them, appeared to be.[/quote]

well for chrissakes, F*CK what i said before! Quit painting me as the monster just because I presented a fringe opinion. I'm not here to inform you all politely what exactly my views are, because to you I'm just a name and an avatar and my personal beliefs don't really matter. Rather than bore you with my (believe me or not) generally moderate opinions, I thought it would be much more interesting to try to flip the very idea of sympathy on its head. It's devil's advocate: take a new angle on something to try to better understand it and your own. If you must know I do feel sympathy for suicides, as well as plenty of other people, and I do sometimes appreciate sympathy. I could write a few paragraphs on that and if you took the time to read it you wouldn't learn a single thing because, believe-it-or-not, my actual views on the subject are trite and moderate in comparison to the ones I presented here.

Also, no more of this name calling. You call me two faced and yet you yourself are agreeing and disagreeing with me at the same time. You said that I'm right in some cases, but I was overlooking the cases where I wasn't right. Then when I put the first idea into perspective in relation to how often the pessimist case actually occurs, I'm two-faced. "two-faced" is an insult when you're talking about someone who actually is two faced, but in a debate like this where there are no sides and nothing to be won, I see no problem whatsoever with someone presenting a wide range of ideas, even if they conflict with each other. I'd rather be intellectually two-faced than be so gung-ho on my own ideas that I can't give others a thorough thinking-through. Don't be a dick and call my beliefs cold, callous, whatever. I'm terribly sorry to have upset you by sharing upsetting ideas. I'll try not to have them in the future, or maybe I'll put them in the taboo closet with all the other things we're not supposed to think about because they're not normal enough. If you still think that duality of thinking is an intellectual handicap or inconsistency of character, I suggest you read yo'self some Carl Jung.

This whole thread is getting off topic. No more cheap rhetorical moves like identifying me as subhuman:
"From what you say, it seems that you have not felt, or perhaps unable to feel, this emotion. If that's the case, I am truly sorry for you, because inability to sympathise makes you an incomplete human being." - ouch, baby. That stuff doesn't make your argument any stronger, but it does come off as prententious, if that's what you were going for :wink:
And no more brutally suppressing ideas simply because they don't match up with your own opinions: "In future, you may wish to consider sorting out your own opinions and feelings objectively and sensibly, BEFORE making them public, and then having to later retract them because you realise exactly how callous, extreme, and cold your beliefs, as you stated them, appeared to be." I don't retract a damn thing I said. as a matter of fact, I think it's wrong to whittle down your ideas to make them acceptable for public discussion, trying to make them more appealing to the average reader so you can convince him. That's a game for politicians, not two guys having a semi-anonymous discussion about the philosophy of sympathy. I'm glad to have something shocking to say, it beats starry-eyes speeches about appealing ideals and the type of things you like to hear. Your condescending tone here also doesn't make me or hopefully anyone else more eager to side with you. I could have called your views quixotic, trite, and melodramatic, but I didn't because I respected your opinions and sought to learn from them rather than try to make them fit with my own.

Sorry, Russ, but you're just contradicting yourself again, here. Just a few examples:

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Originally posted by Dangeruss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dangeruss)</div>

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I don't retract a damn thing I said. as a matter of fact, I think it's wrong to whittle down your ideas to make them acceptable for public discussion, trying to make them more appealing to the average reader so you can convince him.
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I was taking a very pessimistic angle with that post. Yes, I know what sympathy is and I know what it feels like,
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well for chrissakes, F*CK what i said before![/b]

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And another:

<!--QuoteBegin-Dangeruss
I'm glad to have something shocking to say, it beats starry-eyes speeches about appealing ideals and the type of things you like to hear.
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believe-it-or-not, my actual views on the subject are trite and moderate in comparison to the ones I presented here.

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Now, as for this being "duality of thinking"?

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Originally posted by Dangeruss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dangeruss)</div>

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If you still think that duality of thinking is an intellectual handicap or inconsistency of character, I suggest you read yo'self some Carl Jung.[/b]

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I'm familiar enough with Jung, thank you very much. Duality of thinking, however, is not the same as making an extreme statement and then later explicitly (pun intended) revoking it:
<!--QuoteBegin-Dangeruss
well for chrissakes, F*CK what i said before!

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Now, it SEEMS to me that you have just been presenting radical ideas for shock value. Playing devil's advocate. Okay, I can accept this, though I do not believe this is what you intended from the beginning. The ideas themselves, even if they are radical, I can quite happily deal with and argue against, that's what "Extended Discussion" is for. However, what you SHOULD have done is made it clear that these radical ideas were not necessarily your own, right from the start. This would have avoided the confusion caused later when you appeared to retract much of what you previously said.

I didn't read your post, so there.

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Originally posted by Lucifer Sam
That has pretty much nothing to do with what either of us replied to you. This wasn't a funny topic in the first place. The only person who even thought of it that way so far has been you, apparently.

You're pretty good at lingual and gramatical manipulation of conversations. I'll give you that much. I'm not going for that crap though, and you're point still falls flat on its face.

:makeitstop:

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'What... my argument is that you are emotionaly and intellectually stupid... so it only goes toward proving my point that YOU wouldn't get it.

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Originally posted by Dangeruss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dangeruss)</div>

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I didn't read your post, so there. [/b]

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Well, :takethatfoo: to you, too, I guess. :whyme:

<!--QuoteBegin-Leo Volont
'What... my argument is that you are emotionaly and intellectually stupid... so it only goes toward proving my point that YOU wouldn't get it.

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You've committed the Ad Hominem fallacy, Leo.

Attack the argument, not the arguer. :nono:

I’ve been keeping up with this thread since its inception, but I don’t have any desire to argue with any of you. It’s been... interesting... to read everyone’s ideas. Not that anyone will care, but I am suicidal. What does that mean, exactly? It means that since I was about six or seven years old, I’ve been trying to die. For some reason, I keep waking up. Don’t ask me why; I don’t know. I should be dead right now, many times over. I should be one of these ‘selfish people’ you guys keep talking about. But I’m not. I’m still here and sometimes, quite frankly, that pisses me off. I didn’t ask to be born and I certainly didn’t ask for this whatever-the-fuck is wrong with my brain that makes it so I can’t smile or feel genuine happiness without a pill.

Please everyone, consider that in the back of your thoughts: Not everyone has the same happy-chemical-stuff that you all have in your brains. Not everyone can see the value of their lives. Not everyone can smile every day and see the bright side of things. Not everyone believes in hope. Not everyone can afford the help they need to correct that little abnormality. So we live and we suffer until one of our attempts finally succeeds or we somehow strike it rich and get what we need to live what you people call a normal life. Nice, huh? I guess that’s the price of a life. $140 a month. That’s how much my life is worth.

I haven’t made an attempt on my life in about four years. Most of those years were spent on medication, which I currently cannot afford. What keeps me moving right now is the knowledge that I won’t live forever and maybe, just maybe, I can learn something from this life while I wait. The goddess will come pick me up eventually and at least I’ll have a few souvenirs to take with me.

Anyway, I really didn’t want to get into it like that... And I didn’t write this post so you guys could tear it up in your own ways (which I’m sure is going to happen anyway). My actual point for this post was this: do the participants of this thread feel that they are learning anything from it? Is anything being accomplished by continuing this? Are you bettering yourselves somehow?

If so, I'll leave it unlocked and/or move it to the R&S forum so you everyone can continue debating this into the ground. If no one feels like this is getting anywhere and no one is learning anything from it, it looks like it's about lock time.

I certainly feel like seeing everyone's opinions on the subject. I think it's neat to see a wider veiw than just my own....Even if I don't exactly agree.

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
Please everyone, consider that in the back of your thoughts: Not everyone has the same happy-chemical-stuff that you all have in your brains."

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This is actually quite true. Especially in cases where someone is suicidal from a young age, it changes the brain chemistry. Thoughts of suicide become the defaut in times of stress...even before the person has a chance to consider other ways of dealing with a problem, BOOM, "death will end all the pain."

I have the unfortunate situation of knowing where LS is coming from. I deal with it every day (since I was about 8 ). It takes TREMENDOUS effort and energy to just be kinda, 'ok and happyish' from when I wake up, until I go to bed at night. I have a system now, thankfully, that I have to follow every single day, to keep myself from being tempted to think suicidally as a means to solve my problems.

Some people have bad tempers they can't control...some are alcoholics, some sex addicts, etc. There are many different types of neuroses that can change the brain chemistry of an individual, making every single day a struggle to resist taking the 'easy way.' It IS a disease that must be treated constantly. It may never go away 100%, but I function at a conservative 75-80% which I find acceptable. But there's still always that fear that if a bunch of crap were to go wrong all at once, I'd probably dive off a building. And I'll tell you, it's not "EWwwwwww, don't be so selfish" that keeps me alive. It's not wanting anyone else to raise my son that fuels me. HAH, so actually being selfish is what keeps me alive.

So, the 'selfish theory' has hereby been proven to be false, neener neener neeeeeener :teeth:

All that said, this is a very interesting thread. It's good to know what the general public thinks about suicide, and it may help us know who to avoid, and who to turn to when it gets hard and we need help. :goodjob2:

Therefore....

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
do the participants of this thread feel that they are learning anything from it? Is anything being accomplished by continuing this? Are you bettering yourselves somehow?

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that would be a 'yes' for me

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
do the participants of this thread feel that they are learning anything from it? Is anything being accomplished by continuing this? Are you bettering yourselves somehow?

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Thanks for being so direct about this.

Yes, I do feel like this discussion is productive. I'm enjoying hearing others viewpoints, provided that they are brought sensibly and not just to shock other users, and I think there's a lot to be said for open, honest discussion of these sorts of issues, especially since, in western culture, they are often NOT dealt with and instead repressed and made "tabboo". IMHO, that's not healthy. Sometimes, there is a need to drag these sorts of issues into the ligh of public consciousness, and give them some serious thought.

However, when dealing with such a sensitive and emotive topic, there's bound to be emotive responses, and a potential for disagreement that is equally emotive and prone to get nasty. To be honest, these two considerations present a tension that might be hard to reconcile... let these issues be discussed, at the risk of allowing some emotive disagreement and possibly some nastiness, or, preventing that by inhibiting discussion of this issue.

Personally, I think this debate HAS been VERY productive so far, and I have gotten quite a bit out of it, and in fact, have been doing some serious reconsidering of my opinions as a result of some of the tings that some members have said.

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
Please everyone, consider that in the back of your thoughts: Not everyone has the same happy-chemical-stuff that you all have in your brains. Not everyone can see the value of their lives. Not everyone can smile every day and see the bright side of things. Not everyone believes in hope.

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This is true. I've seen this in my own life: a family that I have known for a *long* time has a hereditary problem with depression. I'm not exactly sure what causes this, but it's quite obvious that there is something wrong there, some inbalance in brain chemistry... people in this family, including my best friend, HAVE been suicidal. I myself am very emotionally stable... I count myself lucky. Because really, that's all it is - luck.

Now, like I said just above, I've been doing some serious reconsideration of my thoughts on this whole issue.

I don't feel sorry for somebody because of the actual act of suicide. It's simply either a choice, or an involuntary act/psychotic break... not quite sure which, and it may vary in different situations. But whatever it is, it is not the ACT that one should feel symptahy for. Rather, it is the REASONS for that act which we should feel sympathy for.

Much as I try to repress it, I'm a sympathetic person. Quite frankly, it hurts seeing the the things which LEAD to a person's suicide, such as these differences in brain chemistry LS was talking about, and the other real-life circumstances which lead them to commit suicide, many of which may be totally beyond their control.

Though I don't feel sympathy for a person because of the actual ACT of suicide, I most CERTAINLY feel sympathy towards these people for the factors which have led them to commit suicide either involuntarily, or out of some conscious choice.

As for whether suicide can be selfish?

Yes, it definitely can. But then again, this comes as no real surprise, because much of human action is inherantly selfish... when one sees the (often messy) situations that people who have committed suicide have left behind, one cannot help but feel angry towards those people and their decision/act.

This is perhaps the core of the issue under discussion here, and it's really quite hard to deal with. Should we feel sympathy towards these people for all the factors which have combined, in their lives, to make them commit suicide either involuntarily or through a conscious choice? Or should we feel angry towards them for the act and the effects of their suicide on ourselves and others?

Invariably, we feel BOTH. And that's why suicide hurts so much, and is such an uncomfortable topic.

As far as suicide goes, so that I'm not derailing the thread into a totally personal affair. I think that ultimately, and finally, the thread itself is too broad. Perhaps someone would like to propose a new topic for the thread itself? This could continue forever.

I hope my post didn't seem threatening. I genuinely wanted to know if everyone felt the discussion could go on civilly or if it was time for a move or a lock. It is a sensitive subject and although there were a few instances of name-calling, I'm glad to see that everyone is pretty open about it and people are listening, learning, and trying to understand something that's very complicated. That makes me smile.

That said, I’ll keep the thread here for now. Just go easy on the name-calling. I don’t want to have to make people go stand in the corner. :P

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Originally posted by A Lost Soul
I don’t want to have to make people go stand in the corner. :P

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lol DO IT

hey, we need one of those dunce cap smilies << I looks for one >>