Thread: How We Came To Being, Step By Step

Okay, people, this is something that has been interesting me for some time.

though I dont believe in evolution (if you dont know that, then you probably dont know me) because of things I have read on different aspects of it, but that is another story

right now, I would like the Evolutionists (this incloods Christians, Muslims, Buddists, Wiccans etc who beleive in evolution) to explain, right from how life started if possable, to how we came into being as humans. Other life is also exepted, but people should also be inclooded. We can start either at the birth or life, or with the first cell, but no starting further into the time line. Please, go through every organ/gland/part if you can, so please dont leave out the liver, blood viens, spleen, brain, etc if at all possable

three other things

one, this is obviously going to go on a long time (provided we stay on topic), as people (in deed, even cells and other life) are extremly complex, so feel free to go up in indivigual steps. If it means a whole, thousand word post must be divoted just to how a cell developed flangela (sp? the little hair-things for movment) so be it

second, I do not want anyone to come in and go on a tangent about something completly unrealated, incoherent or otherwise unproductive to this

finaly, related to the second, this thread is about Evolution. Though I am sure many of us would love to talk about how impossable this is (weather it is or isn't is not for this thread), and mention God, this is a Extended Discusion topic, NOT R/S, so if we must disagree, let it not be to point out Spiritual ulternatives, but instead let it be to point out other evolutionery possabilities or how something could not be explained in the way it is without another sugestion

thank you

Keeper.
I have a general overall view of how evolutionists creteil how humans evolved. I would be missing many parts just by my own general knowledge. To do it in the complexity and precision that you want, I would have to do a lot of research and googling.

*Unless this would suffice?

I'm afraid not

you see, I would like to go through every (or most) steps. I.e, Cell gains mitocondria by other cells being partually ingested but not completly, with DNA is transphered to Nucleas, shrinks and begins to abzorb ... etc

I would also like the reason why a mutation stayed and didn't drop of, as some are harmful if not combined with another, and so on

Originally Posted by Keeper

I would also like the reason why a mutation stayed and didn't drop of, as some are harmful if not combined with another, and so on
[/b]

I don't understand what you mean with it dropping off, but if the mutation had negative effects, it would kill the organism and stopping this negative mutation. If it had positive effects, it would help the organism survive (the other ones die because they are not as adapted as this one) and get all the ladies for himself thus creating more offsprings with this mutation - the specie evolving. That's the simple explanation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Keeper

I'm afraid not

you see, I would like to go through every (or most) steps. I.e, Cell gains mitocondria by other cells being partually ingested but not completly, with DNA is transphered to Nucleas, shrinks and begins to abzorb ... etc

I would also like the reason why a mutation stayed and didn't drop of, as some are harmful if not combined with another, and so on
[/b]

Im afraid thts blataantly not possible
there are many gaps i nthe fossil record
and also, it would take far too long
there ahve been millions of small adaptations

Imran

One theory on how the first single cells came into being from lifeless material goes something like this:

The oceans of the earth had basic non-living organic compounds floating around in them. These organic compounds grouped together and were trapped in bubbles venting up from underwater volcanic sites. Either lightning or volcanic energy or a combination of both sparked chemical reactions in these bubbles and some began replicating. These semi-cells fed off other smaller cells and organic particles in the oceans. Chemosynthetic cells followed and then photosynthetic cells. (This is what I vaguely remember from Biology) The textbook did not explain how self-replicating RNA and DNA first formed so there are still holes in this theory.

Keeper:

Books are your FRIEND. Try the origin of species and the ascent of man by darwin for some groundwork, then go from there.

But frankly, I doubt that anyone is really that interested in doing your reading for you and posting a summary on this thread, when your purpose is obviously not to actually learn about the concept not so that you can actually seriously consider it, but so that you can use Christian pseudo-science to argue against it - if you've already made your decision about your belief (WITHOUT actually having a thorough understanding of the concept), then there's really no incentive for anyone to do your reading for you... of course, that's just my opinion, but meh.

How are Christians Evolutionists??? thats like defeating Book 1 Genesis.

becuase not all christians are fundamentalists, and many are OK with evolution including priests.

we have a lot of information missing keeper, so I dont think anyone here can answer your questions. for one, our true closest relatives are dead and we cant study their brains. our living closest relatives arent that close concidering how many more steps happened between us and them

I challenge you, Keeper, to find a book that does exactly that in less than 100 pages. A satisfactorily thorough one, by your standards, would be thousands of pages or more. It is like asking somebody to describe in very fine detail what they saw when they walked across every country in the world. Who here knows the details of every organ any way? I can't even name all of the organs, much less the extreme details of what all they do. Medical doctors don't spend much time on internet discussion sites that have nothing to do with medicine.

But we have actually witnessed the evolutions of certain viruses and plants. I can't tell you all of the fine details of how it happened.

You know that this thread will inspire religous debate, which I think it was as soon as you started it. It belongs in the R/S forum.

Originally Posted by Keeper

right now, I would like the Evolutionists (this incloods Christians, Muslims, Buddists, Wiccans etc who beleive in evolution) to explain, right from how life started if possable, to how we came into being as humans. Other life is also exepted, but people should also be inclooded. We can start either at the birth or life, or with the first cell, but no starting further into the time line. Please, go through every organ/gland/part if you can, so please dont leave out the liver, blood viens, spleen, brain, etc if at all possable[/b]

Are you asking us to step out 2 billion years of evolution (single celled --> human)? Or are you asking how we're develop from single cell --> zygote --> foetus --> birth? If its the first one, I'm going to be laughing for quite a while; the second might actually be answerable.

But, why should we do all the work? Do you know how complicated this subject is? Read up on embyronic development - from sources that aren't creationist. The famous "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" (or recapitulation) might provide some insights. Originally developed back in the 1860s it was a theory that attempted to explain the similarities between different organisms at various stages of embryonic development. It was highly exaggerated in its first form, but the modern theory still encapsulates the original observations.

From the wiki page:

"In biology, ontogeny is the embryonal development process of a certain species, and phylogeny a species' evolutionary history. Observers have noted various connections between phylogeny and ontogeny, explained them with evolutionary theory and taken them as supporting evidence for that theory."

Its interesting to note that, at various stages of development, we have gill pouches that turn into lungs. Or tails that recede into a coccyx.

If you were seriously asking for a step by step to 2 billion years of evolution, then recapitulation will still answer many of your questions. But I really hope you weren't.

Why are you being so hostil? I asked a question thay we all knew (and I even mentioned) would take an emense period of time to answer, yet expecting some sort of productive response, but for the most part I get only downgrading and chalanging evasions

what makes it so hard to tell me the sequence?

Blue: I'm not asking someone to do the reading for me; I'm asking someone to sumerize there view, for I can't take nearly as much from a mear book deffinition then I can from someone expressing there views. If you truly beleive in Evolution, why dont you tell me why you do.

Books cant do nearly enough compared to a one-on-one

Universal: I agree with you, but even a crude "picture" would give me more detail. Also, this would only go to R/S if God is brought up, and I would rather we only go from the Evolution-side so as to keep this focoused

Spoon: I'm afraid I was. Besides, it isn't you doing all the work. In the end this could actually be better for all of us, having all the cards on the table

Originally Posted by Keeper

Why are you being so hostil? I asked a question thay we all knew (and I even mentioned) would take an emense period of time to answer, yet expecting some sort of productive response, but for the most part I get only downgrading and chalanging evasions

what makes it so hard to tell me the sequence?[/b]

You aren't getting a productive response because it was not a productive question. It's so hard to tell you the sequence because you're asking for every single step out of 2 billion years of evolution. Evolution is not large jumps where new features suddenly appear, it is the continual process of modification of populations of organisms over time. How many generations of life was there from single celled --> human in 2 billion years? That is the upper limit on how many steps were required for it to happen.

Blue: I'm not asking someone to do the reading for me; I'm asking someone to sumerize there view, for I can't take nearly as much from a mear book deffinition then I can from someone expressing there views. If you truly beleive in Evolution, why dont you tell me why you do.

Books cant do nearly enough compared to a one-on-one[/b]

Books will be written by people who study evolution for a living, and have an extremely good knowledge of the subject. A one on one will be unable to capture nearly as much information, and will certainly not give you as correct information as books specifically designed to do so.

Universal: I agree with you, but even a crude "picture" would give me more detail. Also, this would only go to R/S if God is brought up, and I would rather we only go from the Evolution-side so as to keep this focoused[/b]

You were already given a crude picture, in the tree of life picture. Here is a more detailed view.

Spoon: I'm afraid I was. Besides, it isn't you doing all the work. In the end this could actually be better for all of us, having all the cards on the table[/b]

Oh of course, you'd be doing work as well. I'm sure it would be very strenuous compared to detailing the evolution of everything over 2 billion years

I still can't believe you're serious.

Originally Posted by Keeper

Universal: I agree with you, but even a crude "picture" would give me more detail. Also, this would only go to R/S if God is brought up, and I would rather we only go from the Evolution-side so as to keep this focoused
[/b]

I wasn't trying to be hostile. I was just saying that you asked a question that cannot be answered in the detail you requested without at least a hundred or more pages. It's just an on-point fact, nothing mean. I can explain the fundamentals of natural selection, but I cannot give you the detail you request. I can tell you how a car engine works, but I can't write a manual on the very specific parts of a car engine and the full details of how they work together.

I will tell you that atoms form molecules, which come together in various formations, such as proteins, which form together with other ones. That is basic chemistry that is generally not doubted. Those greater formations with advantages over other ones stay together better, generally. Any chemical change that creates an advantage thereby creates greater lastability of the protein formation. The ones that survive better experience further chemical changes, some of which destroy, some very few of which create new advantages. The process continues for a very long time. The chemical changes somewhere along the way created situations where certain protein formations replicate. This created a whole new survival advantage because even proteins that don't last have in many cases brought about replicas that survived. The process contiunues, and eventually there is DNA. The process continues, and eventually DNA exists in some formations that are cells. The process continues. Chemical changes brought about by the environment and the history of DNA replication create a replication survivability advantage in cells. Environmental factors bring about further chemical changes. Once in a while, one of those changes gives the cell that changed a survival advantage, giving it a greater survival rate, allowing it to live on better than the ones that don't have the advantage. Some experience changes, very few of which are advanageous, and survive better than those without the advantage, and eventually the cells have the ability to move, one such advantage. So now there are cells that can move and replicate. The process continues, little by little, for billions of years. Along the way in the process, mulicellular organisms come about. Every time chemical changes lead to advantages, whatever rare percentage of the time that happens, those organisms have a better survivability factor than those that do not have the advantage. This process keeps going and going and going until there are invertebrate animals. Later, there are vertebrate animals. The simple vertebrates become more complex vertebrates. The process continues. Eventually, there are mammals. Mice type animals come about gradually. Later, little monkey type beings are walking. Later, there are apes. We come about later in that phase because we are apes.

Did you know that chimpanzees are more genetically similar to humans than they are to gorillas?

Here's an excellent Wikipedia page on natural selection:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection

I didn't say I was going to contribute. Personally, I dont beleive it any more then you beleive in God, and we both have done reaserch wich contributed to our views

so you are saying it cant be done? I was told that someone had already worked it out about four years ago

sorry but this is astupid question

there are gaps in the fossil record
and i also doubt any person in this froum has enoiugh expertise to label each point like you asked
as in how a cell adapted a certain feature and so on
what your asking you know si beyond our cpaiblities
and your aim was to discredit the well proven theory of evolution
=)

If you truly are intersted, pop down to the library and pick up a few books

Imran

If you truly are intersted, pop down to the library and pick up a few books[/b]

That would never happen. As pointed out by univeral mind Keeper doesnt want to understand evolution he just want to believe we were created. Ironically with all his link they are about ID being right however their is not one link to evolution being correct. Selection baised at it best. If you care i actually did read up of ID however it not that impressive it has no evidence and it hasent published no scientific paper, nor does it make any predicitions.

Becoming, I must tell you that - though I find it somewhat amussing - your continuas belittling of my intelegence are becoming rather ... annoying. Kindly refrain

Originally Posted by Keeper

Becoming, I must tell you that - though I find it somewhat amussing - your continuas belittling of my intelegence are becoming rather ... annoying. Kindly refrain
[/b]

Hey now, is that all you have to say at this point? I took a lot of time to give you a rundown on natural selection from atoms and molecules to humans. What's your response?

Becoming, I must tell you that - though I find it somewhat amussing - your continuas belittling of my intelegence are becoming rather ... annoying. Kindly refrain[/b]

I never said you were dumb well if i did i am sorry. I meant that you suffer from a serious case of bad thinking mainly selection biased. Just take the advice of reading a book on evolution like darwin origins of species or a book on neo darwinism before you say it is wrong. That all i ask it not much.

okay, appology exepted

Attention Keeper: please read this article that I posted....wow, nearly 2 years ago.

http://www.dreamviews.com/forum/inde...howtopic=11711

Attention Keeper: please read this article that I posted....wow, nearly 2 years ago.[/b]

I brought that to keeper attention, however he just said that computer program are not real life they are programmed to do what they do. Well something like that saying how they are programmed to evolve so they would evolve.

Originally Posted by becomingagodo

I brought that to keeper attention, however he just said that computer program are not real life they are programmed to do what they do. Well something like that saying how they are programmed to evolve so they would evolve.
[/b]

Hahaha, clearly he didn't pay very close attention to the article.

Okay, Keeper, this is something that has been interesting me for some time.

though I dont believe in god because of things I have read on different aspects of it, but that is another story

right now, I would like the Thiests to explain, right from the beginning of the existence of the universe, how everything in the world came into existence through God's majestic powers. Please do not leave out any aspect of the bible WHATSOEVER - Explain to me every detail and don't leave out any particular bible stories/significances/gospels/perspectives in the history of religion. I would like you to basically explain to me the entire history of god in incredibly thorough details.

three other things

one, this is obviously going to go on a long time (provided we stay on topic), as people (in deed, even cells and other life) are extremly complex, so feel free to go up in indivigual steps. If it means a whole, thousand word post must be divoted just to how jesus accomplished one thing and its significance, so be it

second, I do not want anyone to come in and go on a tangent about something completly unrealated, incoherent or otherwise unproductive to this

finaly, related to the second, I want my responses to be about god. Though I am sure many of us would love to talk about how impossable this is (weather it is or isn't is not for this thread), and mention evolution, this is a Extended Discusion topic, NOT R/S, so if we must disagree, let it not be to point out evolutionary ulternatives, but instead let it be to point out other religion-related possabilities or how something could not be explained in the way it is without another sugestion

thank you