Thread: You Or 10 Others?

Actually, I disdagree. I believe that if no-one was willing to risk death for anyone else, the world would be a MUCH better place. I think it;'s people's willingness to die for "the greater good" that has, being one factor, fucked the world up so badly.[/b]

[emphasis mine]

He speaks the truth. He really does.

Either route you take would be a selfish one. Whether you choose those last 30seconds of the synapses firing in your brain to have you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside for dying for the greater good, or the next 30years...it's all inevitably the same.

A human will not act if the perceived cost outweighs the perceived benefit, in any situation. Period.

Be it Mother Teresa, or Gandhi. Every choice of theirs were powerplays for themselves. True intentions and motivations are always masked. Whether you have the elitest feeling of self-righteousness having done a 'good' deed, or just decide to be a little more straightforward and honest with your selfishness by choosing apathy. EVERYONE is selfish of every minute of every day, and rightly so. There simply is no selfless act.

With that said, I would naturally choose myself because all of it is equally meaningless. Anyone that wouldn't choose themselves, either hasn't come to grips with the reality of the situation, or enjoys fooling themselves with delusions of grandeur.

Originally Posted by The

Actually, I disdagree. I believe that if no-one was willing to risk death for anyone else, the world would be a MUCH better place. I think it;'s people's willingness to die for "the greater good" that has, being one factor, fucked the world up so badly.
[/b]

No, the problem is people willing to risk their lives for THEMSELVES. The people willing to die for others are the ones who keep somewhat of a lid on those.

Originally Posted by The

Universal.

You could have quite easily saved 10 people within your lifetime. Why don't you feel bad about Those people you 'killed'.
[/b]

I've saved a lot of people in my life, some with my bare hands and some with my words. Also, my tax dollars have saved A LOT of people.

But more importantly, refraining from saving somebody is not the same as choosing for him to die. The dilemma this thread is about concerns whether you would flat out make a conscious decision for ten people to die in order to save yourself. Like, if somebody holds up an uzi with you on one side of the room and ten people on the other side and says, "I kill either you or them. You make the decision." Saying, "I choose them," is not the same as not sending help to another country. I believe in helping other countries any way, even to the point of being called all kinds of names for it.

Originally Posted by Universal

I've saved a lot of people in my life, some with my bare hands and some with my words. Also, my tax dollars have saved A LOT of people. [/b]

Do you really believe that all those bombs your tax money payed for even in the Long run saves people? (even when taken the standard of life out of the debate, btw people in japan still get little Hiroshima-babies.)

Anyhow, I guess that the average tax payer in America perhaps saved 1 or 2 people with it's money. Not like (relatively) America gives that much money to dieing people.

But more importantly, refraining from saving somebody is not the same as choosing for him to die. The dilemma this thread is about concerns whether you would flat out make a conscious decision for ten people to die in order to save yourself. Like, if somebody holds up an uzi with you on one side of the room and ten people on the other side and says, "I kill either you or them. You make the decision." Saying, "I choose them," is not the same as not sending help to another country. I believe in helping other countries any way, even to the point of being called all kinds of names for it.
[/b]

Isn't it a conscious decision Not to care, Not to do anything? I think solskye is right about that: both ways it is selfishness. Also, do you really think America is fighting For the people or just Against some archetype of Dictator-ship. If America really cared about random people, they would have saved Africa from it's dictators and wars. Only none of them had as much history with America as Saddam (on the field of violating human rights, Saddam by far wasn't the only bad kid in class).

I am serious about this, America isn't fighting For people, it is all just an almost symbolic fight against suppression. They reflect their own lust for freedom on other countries. I highly doubt many americans Really are about afghans and about Iraqis.

-

Also, it is in human nature to make Some sort of sacrifice for 'the pack' or social group one is in. However thanks to society people don't help other people, people help (sacrifice something, if not everything) for ideas. Christianity and Islam are ideas that caused a lot of death and war, because people put 'the group', the Idea, above them self. Like TBM said.

Originally Posted by SolSkye

Either route you take would be a selfish one. Whether you choose those last 30seconds of the synapses firing in your brain to have you feeling all warm and fuzzy inside for dying for the greater good, or the next 30years...it's all inevitably the same.

A human will not act if the perceived cost outweighs the perceived benefit, in any situation. Period.

Be it Mother Teresa, or Gandhi. Every choice of theirs were powerplays for themselves. True intentions and motivations are always masked. Whether you have the elitest feeling of self-righteousness having done a 'good' deed, or just decide to be a little more straightforward and honest with your selfishness by choosing apathy. EVERYONE is selfish of every minute of every day, and rightly so. There simply is no selfless act.

With that said, I would naturally choose myself because all of it is equally meaningless. Anyone that wouldn't choose themselves, either hasn't come to grips with the reality of the situation, or enjoys fooling themselves with delusions of grandeur.
[/b]

Agreed 100%. Human decisions are based on selfishness, whether one likes it or not. Personally I realise all of my decisions are based on my selfishness, so it doesn't really bother me, though.

It doesn't bother me, either. It's the people that refuse to acknowledge that fact that are the ones to be weary of. They start seeing meaning where there is none and can quickly turn a blind eye to heinous acts in the name of their selfishness and false meaning.

Being aware of the simple truths will keep you from harming yourself and others.

Neruo, I didn't mean for this to turn into another one our conversations about the United States and why you think we are a force for 100% bad and 0% good. I just factually mentioned that my tax dollars have saved many lives because it was very relevant to the conversation. But since you disagreed and accused us of not doing much to help others, Africa in particular, let me give you some information you might not know. The United States gives more money in foreign aid than any other country on Earth. Were you aware of that? How many countries are there? Like 200 or something? We are at the top of that list. We have done more to fight hunger and disease in Africa than ANY other country. We have also liberated more people than any other country in history. All wars involve collateral damage, and that is horribly unfortunate, but a lot of our wars have been necessary to keep or to make people free, which saves a great many lives in the long run and makes the quality of life far better in the long run. We have never fought a war on purely humanitarian grounds because war is serious stuff and requires a long list of justifications, but humanitarianism has many times been one of the things to add to the list of things that add up to justification for war.

Most importantly, again, we lead the world in humanitarian aid. I have seen you say several times here lately that the United States doesn't do enough for Africa. Considering the facts, your point is very bizarre and false.

Originally Posted by Universal

let me give you some information you might not know. The United States gives more money in foreign aid than any other country on Earth. Were you aware of that? How many countries are there? Like 200 or something? We are at the top of that list. We have done more to fight hunger and disease in Africa than ANY other country.
[/b]

* USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world, though paradoxically since 2000, their dollar amount has been the highest. (Only since 2004 have they move up from last place, by one.)
* Since 1992, Japan had been the largest donor of aid, in terms of raw dollars. That was until 2001 when the United States reclaimed that position, a year that also saw Japan’s amount of aid drop by nearly 4 billion dollars (as tables and charts below will also show).

Source: http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Debt/USAid.asp

Have a nice day.

That rhymes with

'touché'


Also, Vietnam called, they said thanks for liberating them.
-

Back on topic: I consciously know that if I just gave all my allowance and income away to people in Africa, I would have saved about 100 people by now. In a way you could say I killed them.

On the other hand, I think human brains didn't evolve in a way that we can even understand what'100.000 dead' means truly. I just can't relate to people in Africa dieing, even if there is some 'what if' scenario that would mean I could have saved them. The only way I think people are Somewhat capable of understanding what is going on is by seeing some of it. But even then, you would just see a part.

Originally Posted by Universal

No, the problem is people willing to risk their lives for THEMSELVES. The people willing to die for others are the ones who keep somewhat of a lid on those. [/b]

The "greater good" and what really ARE the "best interests of others" are both completely subjective judgements. This is why I dislike patriotism and socialism so much - in fact, both make me very scared, to tell the truth. But getting back to the point - Universal, any sorry schmuck can be convinced to give his life for an unworthy cause. The lines you are delivering fall roughly in the same line of thought that makes people join armies - the same line of thought that GIVES countries human pawns to throw at each other.

Originally Posted by The

Universal, any sorry schmuck can be convinced to give his life for an unworthy cause. The lines you are delivering fall roughly in the same line of thought that makes people join armies - the same line of thought that GIVES countries human pawns to throw at each other.
[/b]

As sympathetic as I am to your motives, Universal, I completely agree with that. ^^

It's this, exact, concept that gives birth to rhetoric like "Either you're with us, or you're with the terrorists."
(...not to mention 95% of the dialogue on FOX News.)

FOX news... eesh. We occaisionally get it here on some of the crap minor channels, and man, it's really scary. Is FOX news actually mainstream in America?

Originally Posted by The

FOX news... eesh. We occaisionally get it here on some of the crap minor channels, and man, it's really scary. Is FOX news actually mainstream in America?
[/b]

I really, really hope not... But I do think it is pretty large : / : (

10 Strangers or me? As if that's not obvious, I'm looking out for #1, sorry 10 random people.

Originally Posted by Neruo

* USA’s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world[/b

Also, Vietnam called, they said thanks for liberating them.

Our taxes are comparitively very low, and they is why we have the world's highest GDP. Do you see how it works? If we raised our taxes a great deal in an attempt to give even more in foreign aid, we would have far less revenue and therefore far less money to give in foreign aid. Our capitalism, which results from low taxes and results in high GDP, is what allows us to be the WORLD'S BIGGEST giver of foreign aid. Talk to your government about that so you can do something too.

We left South Vietnam early because people like you put so much political pressure on the politicians to get us out early. We should have stayed until the South Vietnamese were free too. Your point here does not counter my point that we have freed more people than any other country in history. Have a nice day.

Originally Posted by Neruo

The "greater good" and what really ARE the "best interests of others" are both completely subjective judgements. This is why I dislike patriotism and socialism so much - in fact, both make me very scared, to tell the truth. But getting back to the point - Universal, any sorry schmuck can be convinced to give his life for an unworthy cause. The lines you are delivering fall roughly in the same line of thought that makes people join armies - the same line of thought that GIVES countries human pawns to throw at each other.
[/b]

That does not get around the fact that you and I are free as we speak because so many people before us were willing to die for strangers.

I do not believe that there will be a sure answer to this question until we all become united as one. At that point, I believe we could demolish many of the reasons that we fight in the first place, since so many minds would be working together. If the world spent the time, resources, and energy it takes to prepare for, and fight war, and put it toward a good use, and also combined our creative energies, I think it is possible for us to accomplish great feats.

"Come to realize that we are all one mind, capable of all that's imagined, and all concievable." -MJK

I'm not sure if this is possible for mankind to accomplish, however. It only takes one weak link to break a chain.
If we, as the US, dropped our defenses even for a moment, we would be done for, and the same is true for all places worth taking.
I think it's an awesome coinidence that as I sit and write this, tool's 'Right in Two' opened up on my music machine across the room.


RIGHT IN TWO - tool

Angels on the sideline,
Puzzled and amused.
Why did Father give these humans free will?
Now they're all confused.

Don't these talking monkeys know that
Eden has enough to go around?
Plenty in this holy garden, silly monkeys,
where there's one you're bound to divide it

Right in two

Angels on the sideline,
Baffled and confused.
Father blessed them all with reason.
And this is what they choose.
(and this is what they choose)
Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.

Silly monkeys give them thumbs,
They forge a blade,
And where there's one they're
bound to divide it,

Right in two.
Right in two.

Monkey killing monkey killing monkey
Over pieces of the ground.
Silly monkeys give them thumbs, they make a club
And beat their brother down.

How they survive so misguided is a mystery.
Repugnant is a creature who would squander the ability
to lift an eye to heaven conscious of his fleeting time here.

cut it, divide it all right in two (x4)


They fight, till they die
Over earth, over sky
They fight
Over lies, over blood, over air
And light, over love, over son
Over blood
They fight, till they die, over what? for our lies!

Angels on the sideline again
Benched along with patience and reason
Angels on the sideline again
Wondering when this tug of war will end


-sloth

Originally Posted by Universal

Our taxes are comparitively very low, and they is why we have the world's highest GDP. Do you see how it works? If we raised our taxes a great deal in an attempt to give even more in foreign aid, we would have far less revenue and therefore far less money to give in foreign aid. Our capitalism, which results from low taxes and results in high GDP, is what allows us to be the WORLD'S BIGGEST giver of foreign aid. Talk to your government about that so you can do something too. [/b]

Analise yourself and you might understand how Theist think and justify their beliefs no matter what facts are thrown at them. It is a FACT that per person the U.S. doesn't give the most aid to other countries. If Europe became one country, we would give more money to aid then any other county. That wouldn't mean the governments and people all of a sudden are better and more generous.

We left South Vietnam early because people like you put so much political pressure on the politicians to get us out early. We should have stayed until the South Vietnamese were free too. Your point here does not counter my point that we have freed more people than any other country in history. Have a nice day.
That does not get around the fact that you and I are free as we speak because so many people before us were willing to die for strangers.
[/b]

lol.

Christian-reasoning.

Well done.

Also, more people got killed for your 'freedom' then died for your freedom. Think about it. But I doubt you retained the capability to think about that subject.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Analise yourself and you might understand how Theist think and justify their beliefs no matter what facts are thrown at them. It is a FACT that per person the U.S. doesn't give the most aid to other countries. If Europe became one country, we would give more money to aid then any other county. That wouldn't mean the governments and people all of a sudden are better and more generous.
lol.

Christian-reasoning.

Well done.

Also, more people got killed for your 'freedom' then died for your freedom. Think about it. But I doubt you retained the capability to think about that subject.
[/b]

A country versus a continent? That's a great comparison, especially since we have to keep taxes low for the business and enterainment that enrich your life so much while fighting the terrible people who threaten your freedom while you use your freedom to sit on your ass and trash talk those who maintain it. That must be very convenient. Enjoy your freedom.

Originally Posted by Universal

That does not get around the fact that you and I are free as we speak because so many people before us were willing to die for strangers.[/b]

Making a loaded statement and referring to it as "fact": does not present a convincing argument.

The willingness of individuals to "sacrifice" their lives for any greater good is part of a broader movement of the surrendering of individual freedom and rights to the State. It is THIS very movement which threatens free speech. And on top of this: what makes you so convinced that the "so many people before us" you refer to were fighting against a threat to free speech?

After reading all of these posts, I have come to realize two things.

1. It is human instinct to survive.

2. Knowing 9 out of 10 would choose themselves would be something worth considering

My decision: I choose to live.

Originally Posted by The

Making a loaded statement and referring to it as "fact": does not present a convincing argument.

The willingness of individuals to "sacrifice" their lives for any greater good is part of a broader movement of the surrendering of individual freedom and rights to the State. It is THIS very movement which threatens free speech. And on top of this: what makes you so convinced that the "so many people before us" you refer to were fighting against a threat to free speech?
[/b]

Calling my statement "loaded" (And I have no idea why you called it that.) does not counter it. Without the American Revolution, my country would not even exist, and the founding fathers would never have drafted the Bill of Rights, which gives us many freedoms, speech just being one of them. That is one example of how dying for others under allegience to a state's military leads to freedom and not loss of it. Are you claiming that nobody has ever died for the freedom of others? Do you claim that nobody ever had to die for you to be free right now? Is that what you assert?

I don't quite understand how this thread turned into the typical America bash session but...

I hope all of you realize that, while I hate America and the ignorance of the typical american as much as the next person (that's honestly one big reason I live in Japan now), we shouldn't forget that EVERY single country in the world has it's own insurmountable dirty laundry list of transgressions against each other since the beginning of time and will continue to do. It's called, being human...

With that in mind, we need only look in the mirror to find out who's to blame for the state of things in the world. It's the human condition; things change, but nothing really changes. People have been and always will be selfish, and have always committed atrocities on their fellow man, what's really so surprising about that? Seriously though, NO country has a clean slate to be able to talk slander about another without sounding like a hypocritical power-hungry spoiled brat, trying to pin the proverbial tail on the donkey.

It's really easy to overlook your own problems when you can simply criticize someone else's. How quick are we to forget that Europe has been bickering and warring amongst themselves for thousands upon thousands of years, and just focus on how they've only recently decided to start putting their differences aside. Not to mention, Britain is THE central reason that Africa and the Middle East is in the current state of debacle that it's in. All those obscure warring factions and countries today in Africa and the Middle East, need only thank Britain for their imperialistic expansionist colonization habits they carried for the better part of the last 500 years, or so. But whatever, it's all the in the past we can't hold current generations accountable, right? Pfft.

The ONLY reason any country would choose pacifism isn't really by choice, but rather due to outside pressures and strong-arming from other countries with power leaving them option less. Any so-called progressive pacifist nation, like France, Switzerland or some other pathetic elitist country simply leans towards their isolationist elitist turtling tendencies as a crutch, and justification to think they are better than others that don't follow suit. Everything in the end, is driven by selfish arrogant pride.

Sure, while it's real easy to play the blame game for whats going on in the here in now, no one has clean hands in which to point fingers, so honestly, what's the point in doing so? I'm selfish, you're selfish, we're all selfish. I guess I'll go eat worms...

Originally Posted by Universal

Calling my statement "loaded" (And I have no idea why you called it that.) does not counter it. Without the American Revolution, my country would not even exist, and the founding fathers would never have drafted the Bill of Rights, which gives us many freedoms, speech just being one of them. That is one example of how dying for others under allegience to a state's military leads to freedom and not loss of it. Are you claiming that nobody has ever died for the freedom of others? Do you claim that nobody ever had to die for you to be free right now? Is that what you assert?
[/b]

Do you really think the founding fathers would have wanted you to play world police all over the place? The founding fathers would spit on the America of today. Growing massive fundamentalist Christianity, Xenophobia, extreme egocentric and chauvinistic people that aren't even patriots just retards, a political system that produced people like bush and it's administration, a huge national depth, low minimum wages, ect, ect.

I think the founding fathers would be ashamed.

Also if your county is so free, why does it have such un-free media, so little drug-rights, such average education, things like the patriot act. Actually, I would like to know in what way america is more free then lets say The Netherlands, or Germany, or France.

Also, the FACT, ACTUAL NUMERICAL FACT remains that per person, the U.S. sucks mayor balls at giving to charity.

Also universeral, would you like to comment on 'more people were killed for your freedom then people died for your freedom'. (the 'killed for' being Indians and such).

-


Also, jesus fuck, lets talk about the actual topic.

Originally Posted by Neruo

Do you really think the founding fathers would have wanted you to play world police all over the place? The founding fathers would spit on the America of today. Growing massive fundamentalist Christianity, Xenophobia, extreme egocentric and chauvinistic people that aren't even patriots just retards, a political system that produced people like bush and it's administration, a huge national depth, low minimum wages, ect, ect.

I think the founding fathers would be ashamed.

Also if your county is so free, why does it have such un-free media, so little drug-rights, such average education, things like the patriot act. Actually, I would like to know in what way america is more free then lets say The Netherlands, or Germany, or France.

Also, the FACT, ACTUAL NUMERICAL FACT remains that per person, the U.S. sucks mayor balls at giving to charity.

Also universeral, would you like to comment on 'more people were killed for your freedom then people died for your freedom'. (the 'killed for' being Indians and such).

-
Also, jesus fuck, lets talk about the actual topic.
[/b]

Uh, yeah, let's talk about the topic. Lots of people have died so that you can be free, so there are people who die for others. You are so nutty with you bizarre obsession with my country that you can't even stick to your own tangents. But I'll follow your last ones for a bit. Our media is extremely capitalistic, so how is it not free? It is not state controlled. If it were, it would not be so successful. Our economic freedom is the reason for our success. You should try to get your country to try it. Then you can all have some self esteem and stop centering your obsessive energies around us. We do appreciate the flattery, however. Also, our education has landed us on the moon. We have even put a remote control car on Mars and operated it from Earth. I think there are medical advancements and technological successes we might be able to mention. Do you like our high tech movies? Okay, I'll stop there for now. Your turn. What have you superior geniuses done?

You sound very impressed with the fact that we can lead the world in liberation AND have such a great economy (which you benefit from) AND still lead the world in foreign aid. What does your country do for the world?

People who are killed died. The people who died for your freedom died because they were killed. What is the point of that tangent? Collateral damage sucks, but it does not disprove the existence of many times more lives saved in the long run and greatly improved quality of life in the long run. Where are you supposed to be going with that? Your hatred is blinding you. But feel free to use your freedom to express hate. You can thank the people who died for it.

Do you remember dogging Keeper for his bad spelling? You were supposedly educated on English, right? Let's talk about your education. What is "ect, ect, ect"? Do you mean, "etc., etc., etc."? It stands for "et cetera, et cetera, et cetera,". Also, what is the significance of "mayor balls"? Do you have a specific mayor in mind? Or did you mean "major balls"? Another thing you do is use the word "it's" as a possessive pronoun. "Its" is a possessive pronoun, but "it's" is a contraction which is short for "it is". I just thought I should educate you.


Solskye, thank you for acknowledging the fact that there are countries to dog other than the United States. A lot of people here have yet to show a sign of understanding that. They must be obsessed with us or something. I'm glad they are. It makes us feel important.

No question whatsoever... I'd die for 10 other people.