Thread: Israel-palestine

Nope this Topic won't just die after you had the last word Imran

I agree with what you said in your last post imran.
I would even have respect for you if it wasn't for that rediculous, foul, statement you made that "The Zionist-Conspiracy must hold some truth seen how the US sticks out their neck for Israël"
The reasons the US do that is because of self interrest: Establishing an Allie and militairy powerbase in the middle east to have more power over the area. Also the US, being an intensely Christian nation has Religious motivations to sympathise and support Israël: Jerusalem is sacred to Christians too. The Zionist Conspiracy-theories are for the lowly intelligent people that are so filled with negative emotions that they can't think straight. Nuff said about that.

I agree with you on your last post though. Organisations like Hamas are malicious hearted people that cause the poverty and violence amongst the Palestinian people and then exploit their Desperation.



The mentality of racial/religious hattred and it's indoctrination of it uppon the Palestinian youth is the core of the problem. Israël has stopped taking Palestinian "authorities" seriously since numerous peace processes have shown that these militants can not be taken seriously and cannot be taken up on their word.

I say: What's the problem? Why can't Palestinians and Jews live amongst eachother, mixed as neighbors, in the land they love? It is the Racial, but mainly Religious, intolerance of a group of fanatic Palestinians that wouldn't allow Jews, a different religion, to live in Islamic lands. Israël has been under islamic rule in the time the Jews were bannished from Israël and roamed through Europe which proved to be a fatal journey. There's no other responsible land to appoint to the Jews than Israël.

The Israëli harsh militairy response to Islamic fanatic violence, no matter how sour and tragic for the innocent Palestinian civilians, cannot rationally be critised; You cannot sit and just allow Religious Militants slaughter your civilians with suicide bombings and Qassam missiles.
There needs to be a change of heart in the Palestinian peoples. Preferably a massive Revolution of the people where the REAL palestinians kick out the trouble makers Hamas, Al Aqsa and Al Quds who are mostly foreign trouble makers sent by Iran and Syria.

This hatred needs to cool down first before constructive, effective, peace negociations can take place between Israël and Palestine. For that, Palestine first needs to bannish all renegade, trouble making militants and unite into one, responsible, integre Palestinian Authority.

Once that's happened, and warhungry Iran and Syria no longer have their powerdriven, malicious influence on Israël and Palestine, I have all faith that Israëlis and Palestinians can one day live in perfect peace with and tolerance of one another.

The Israëli harsh militairy response to Islamic fanatic violence, no matter how sour and tragic for the innocent Palestinian civilians, cannot rationally be critised; You cannot sit and just allow Religious Militants slaughter your civilians with suicide bombings and Qassam missiles

Yeah okay you cant blame Israel for drop[ping all those bombs on Lebanon, jeez, so biased.

No, because if you were to let Hizbollah rest for even one night they wouldn't use it to sleep, but to aim and fire missiles and Katchushas at Israëli civilians. My family lives in the North of Israël so I know how serious Hizbollah's threat to Israëli civilians is.

The Lebanese government isn't doing anything to stop Hizbollah from attacking Israël from the southern border of their country; because they are powerless. Hizbollah has hijacked society in Lebanon and if Israël isn't gunna fight these jackasses to stop them from showering mortars and missiles on civilians then who will?

And if hizbollah were really "rightious freedom fighters" as they claim, then why are they hiding amongst lebanese civilians as they fire their missiles into Israël? They are using these poor people as a human, political shield.

Im not defending Hezbollah, Im ciritizing both sides of the border.
The reaction was disgraceful and immoral, Israel continues to disregard international protocol and takes the law into its own hands, its wrong. However, yes it is in a tricky situation. I like to think Ive found a centre ground it seems your still quite biased. Basically, you think Israel is quite exmpt from any blame and is comeptely correct in its choice of actions.

Yeah okay. I can understand this can be quite a high charded subject but seriously look at the bigger picture, you cant just butcher innocent people using the phrase "The ends justify the means2

Allright. At least this still is a civilised discussion sofar.

Negociations with Hisbollah are impossible. Israël has made cease fire commitments with lebanon after the war and Hizbollah non-stop violated those commitments till the very day of today. Lebanese authority is powerless and shits their pants even THINKING of telling hizbollah to cease their violence, let alone militairily do something about it.

Sure, Israël's militairy actions violated alot of international laws and it was an act out of sheer desperation.
Do you have better suggestions for Israël as what to do in order to protect their civilians from Hizbollah?

Go to the ngeotiating table, talk about the Sheeba farms, all the contested land. Seek help from the UN, anything that doenst invovle the murdering of innocents. On top of that, on a tactical base it was terrible, for every militnt they killed there were ten waiting to join, Nasarallah loved the attacks. The people there are literally dying to be martyrs.


My main greivenace with Israel is how it conucts itslef on a global front, its orignis are old news, but its foregin policy needs to be curbed, the cosntant air raids into palestine, continually kill citizens. The thing with Pleastine tis the militants acting disgustingly, with ISrael its the government.

So you're saying Hizbollah is going to listen to negotiations? They want the entire state of Israel and all its people dead. I don't think they'll stop. Also, I don't think the UN is going to do anything if Israel asks for help. The UN is famous for not doing anything. They are probably too afraid to take on Hizbollah because they know it may draw them into conflict with Iran.

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

So you're saying Hizbollah is going to listen to negotiations? They want the entire state of Israel and all its people dead. I don't think they'll stop. Also, I don't think the UN is going to do anything if Israel asks for help. The UN is famous for not doing anything. They are probably too afraid to take on Hizbollah because they know it may draw them into conflict with Iran.

Finally someone who is aware of how unwilling to negociate Hizbollah are.
And someone who is aware what hizbollah's ambitions are.

And yeah we've all seen how pathetic and passive the UN-forces are: Look at Srebrenica; They just sat and watched as Serbs massacred THOUSANDS of muslim men. A genocide right before their eyes and they did nothing. Let the UN bring food to the poor and water to the thursty; They're not more capable of doing anything else.

And Imran, how many times do you try to negociate with an enemy who's only response is with arms, untill you draw the conclusion that it is useless?

There have been countless attempts of negociations with Hizbollah only to have all hope shattered by Hizbollah continuing violence again.
Israël has done all it could to try and end this madness with negociations. There comes a time, alas, when the only option is to fight those militants.

It is utterly rediculous to negociate with an enemy who's terms of agreement is the entire destruction of your land and all it's people. What else do you expect Israël to do?

If Hizbollah would make acceptable and reasonable demands then this bloodshed would have ended long ago. But no; bloodshed is hizbollahs demand. the Destruction of israël and the "re-islamisation" of the land. Do I even NEED to tell you why this is unacceptable?

Hizbollah need to get the hell out of there. As it is; that is the only solution for enduring peace between Lebanon and Israël. The same goes for Hamas, Al Aqsa, Al Quds and friends in the Palestinian areas; The need to go to hell so the Palestinian people are no longer being lead by a bunch of barbaric militants. What the Palestinian people need for Authority are LEADERS, not militants. Leaders thatbuild their people proper houses, a sewer-system, watersupplies, infrastructure and a thriving economy instead of investing in an endless (un)holy war against their neighbors. Only leaders that can negociate reasonable terms are acceptable candidates for peace-negociations with Israël.

agreed?

Its always hard to fight a guerilla war without harming citizesn, but the extent that Israel bombed lebanon was uneccesary. Israel always takes things over the top, Hizbollah actions are ones of terror, but so was Israels response. Most people they kileld were citizens, a handful were militants. Its murder how ever you look at it. Mossads always assasinating people. Then theres what they did to vannanu, Israel never obeys international protocol and UN resolutions.
I agree its a tricky situation to be in, but an armed invasion into Lebanon to remove hiezbollah would be better than killing thousands of innocent civillians and gaining ntohing, even the Israeli people were disgusted at the way the crisis was handled, morally and on a miltary level it achieved nothing.
I just think its time Israel started acting like an ordinary country, it seems that they get some form of special international treatment.


EDIT: Hizbollah no longer wants to destroy Israel, it is contestsing over the Sheeba farms if im correct.

Hizbollah wants to destroy Israël. I'm not going to argue about that anymore.
Why don't you ask Mister Nasrallah? I'm sure Hizbollah has numerous websites. Have a look at their "ideology". Done arguing with that, cuz it would be naïve to think Hizbollah has rightious objectives.

If Hizbollah weren't cowering in Lebanese civil areas and firing missiles into Israël from Rooftops in crowded, lebanese, cities and villages then they wouldn't endanger all these lebanese Civilians. It is Hizbollah who are responsible for all these Civil Casualties. You cannot expect Israël to stand by and do nothing (like the UN?lol) as their civilians are being slaughtered. Hizbollah are simply placing Lebanese Civilians in harms way by fighting their unholy war from within civil areas.


Example: If you start a rebel/guerilla group and settle yourself in Country A in a village near the border of a neighboring country; Country B. You start firing missiles and Katchusha mortars onto villagers and citizens of Country B from just over the border: It is no more than reasonable that you can expect Country A to kick you out as you are trouble makers and creating tention between their country and Country B.

But let's say you've built up such a massive Guerilla stronghold that even the Government of Country A is powerless and scared shitless to throw you out and take back Control; It is no more than plain logic to expect Country B to start retalliating; letting you know: "Stop bombing our Goddamn civilians!"

You continue killing Country B's civilians launching missiles from crowded, civil areas in Country A and Country B takes action, since no one else does.
The result: 20 Militants dead and 90, innocent Civilians dead.


Now my question: Who's the jackass to be blamed for those Innocent dead?

Country B with it's counter attack? Or You and your piece o' shit Guerilla group?

I'm eagerly awaiting your answer.

PS: Check out this song:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8pVv...elated&search=
It perfectly shows the sentiment of many Israëlis who are sick and tired of having to live in uncertainty of life and death due to those "Rightious Militants" of Hizbollah. Also imagine living in Northern Israël and quite frequently having to seek cover in bombshelters because Hizbollah rains Katchushas and Missiles on your hometown.

Please tell me you understand Israël's "We are taking no more shit from you"-additude towards Hizbollah.

Yallah ya Nasrallah! We'll send you back to Allah! Man I love that song, because it speaks my mind. And not my mind alone.

My simple anaswer is both
Now let me ask you a question
Do you honestly think that ISraels foreign policy, particulraly to the middle east is acceptable and moral.
And do you also beleuive that Israel is blameless admist the middle east crisis?

It seems to me that your biased

My simple answer is Yes.
It is great injustice to all those innocent civilians, but simply the only option Israël has to defend their own civilians from these uncompromising Hizbarbarians.
They allready put all effort into negociations and we've all seen how well that worked. Israël does what it needs to do in order to protect it's civilians.

Unless YOU have a better Idea. Write negociation off of your options list as that would be plain out loud Naïve.

There is not the slightest bit of evil intent, dominative intent, religious intent in Israël's actions, no matter how harsh they are. They've run out of other options; And oh how many times they tried to sit around the table only to receive bombs and missiles.

There is no guilt in survival.

PS: you like the word biased don't you? And no I'm not biased, I'm knowledged on this conflict. I'm just guessing I've seen a far more complete picture of this conflict than you have. If your only information sources on this conflict is the news and the papers then assume you have not the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

Perhaps you're biased yourself. Ever considered that? And perhaps we owe that to the false, economy-influenced media. Keywords: "Rich OilSheihks, money, Influence, Interrest in Jihadic efforts, Western media; Bitch of money"

hahaha now your trying to claim the arabs control our media, when I start claiming Zionists are feeding us propganda jeez thts terrible.
But yeah its okay for you.
I just find it funny how every israeli thinks the pelastinians are at fault and visa versa, it seems you cant see the complete picture, israels actions are murderous and wrong. Everyone knows it and nobody in the international community says anything about it.

The UN actually decalred Zionism a form of racism.

I'm not saying arabs control our media. This appearantly is your style of thinking; Generalisation.
I'm just saying there's a very influential business top of rich, arab oil sheikhs with jihadic interrest that DO influence our media. Leaving the arabs as an entire peoples out of the picture. You seem to generalise where I don't. You see in black and white.

And let's talk about that word you are so fond of: biased.
EVERY ISRAËLI THINKS THE PALESTINIANS ARE AT FAULT?
Could be me but it seems you're totally biased.
Didn't I make a clear point that it is not the Palestinian, nor the lebanese people who are at fault at all, but instead groups of Radical militants that have hijacked their society and make war in their name?

And whatever the UN declares: Who gives a damn? You mean the UN; that hypocritical, so called peace corps? Who, in the right mind, takes them serious anyway?

No you have just shown that not only are you incredibly naïve and unwilling to admit that I've got a pretty damn good, solid argumentation: You have just lost your cool. You Generalise all israëlis and you believe in tales for the lowly intelligent: The Zionist-conspiracy story.

Also everytime I read your arguments and REPLY to them and answer them. I bring to you very solid counter-arguments yet you avoid them when you can't prove me wrong and just turn the whole thing around by saying:" No the israëlis are murderous and their actiosn are wrong" and you just repeat yourself. It shows that you're very weak at discussion.

Next time if you wish to express your opinion, make sure you know what the hell you're talking about.

This was a good discussion; untill now.

I'm officially done discussing with you. I only discuss with civilised people.

At no point did i say anything to dergoratory to Israeli people, you hwoever, are incapable of accpeting that the Israeli government is a least partially at fault for the crisis and the way in which they react is immoral.

basically your a person whose life philopsiphy is "The ends justify the means"
So be it, you think its correct to kill thosuands of innocent civvilians with the hope of killing a handful of militants?
Fine. I dont claim to know the answer, but Israel could start by entering negotations and giving back land won in the six day war. And no not negotation with miltants, but with governments. The people got so tried of Fatah achieving nothing with Israel, they elected militants.
Militants were elected, it shows what a state the people are in. and why?
Both governments are comepltely corrupt and dont give a shit about the people or else they would ahve done soemthing by now.
To be honest, fuck olmert and fuck abbas.
You honeaslty bleieve that the situation inthe middle east is all down to Islamic fundementalism, nothing to do with the original Zionists refusal to lett land to arabs or Israel's harsh response towards any misdemeanours from neighbouring couintries, or their refusal to give land back, only recnetly was the gaza strip givien back, but air raids are still a way of life for the Palestinians. I blame niether side for the crisis, but israel does little to help and keeps the Paledtinian people down, with its constant attacks and refusal to except the refugees back into its land. I mean you dont find it discrimnatory that the Law of Return allows all Jews immediate citizenship but Palestinians who were expelled from their land, and yes some fled, are not granted citizenship? Of course its wrong, its wrong, its racist, and tis immoral. Please defend the law of return and refusla to accept Palestinian refugees?

Tell me what you expect the Palestinians to do, those who want their country back, or at elast some of it?
peace talks have got them nowhere, Oslo.
You see, what else can they do? The people ahd Fatah in charge, a aprty that accept Israels right to exist and say they were loking for co-existance, but in all that time very little was achieved. So now they turn to the militants, wrong but desperate actions.

Imran, what do you think about Jews and Muslims living together in a democracy where they are all equal? I think everything should be aimed at that so that it can eventually become a real situation. We were talking about that prospect in the thread "Boot it out!" I would love to see what you have to say after you read what has been written there. Two guys who live in Israel gave their perspectives on the situation, and I asked if somebody who knows a ton about the Palestinian perspective would explain it in terms of what we were discussing. Could that person be you?

If your asking me what I tihnk the solutiion should be I'll tell you. I used to think the only possible solution would be to return Palestine to the Palestinians, however thts obviously not feasible and is just as immoral as the orginial zionist movement.
I honestly beleive that Jews and Muslims should live together in one country, with a coalition government. Not an elected government of one or the other but a coalition government of Israelis and Palestinians. the Lebanese people should be granted last they lost in the six day war.
Obviously there are people on both sides who reject the idea of unity, conservative Israelis see Israel as a jewish state, and thats why they siezed it orginally, some Palestinans, namely Hamas, refuse to accept israels exitance. Groups like these should be marginialised and rejected. If the left from both countries came together, i bleieve the people could co-exist peacefully. After all, Jews, Muslims and Christians all co-existed quite well in Palestine before the first wave of immgration and the subsequent Jewish state.

Originally Posted by imran_p

If your asking me what I tihnk the solutiion should be I'll tell you. I used to think the only possible solution would be to return Palestine to the Palestinians, however thts obviously not feasible and is just as immoral as the orginial zionist movement.
I honestly beleive that Jews and Muslims should live together in one country, with a coalition government. Not an elected government of one or the other but a coalition government of Israelis and Palestinians. the Lebanese people should be granted last they lost in the six day war.
Obviously there are people on both sides who reject the idea of unity, conservative Israelis see Israel as a jewish state, and thats why they siezed it orginally, some Palestinans, namely Hamas, refuse to accept israels exitance. Groups like these should be marginialised and rejected. If the left from both countries came together, i bleieve the people could co-exist peacefully. After all, Jews, Muslims and Christians all co-existed quite well in Palestine before the first wave of immgration and the subsequent Jewish state.

I am in favor of as little "us and them" stuff as possible. The only way to fight racism/creedism is to bring awareness to individuality. They should not be treated as teams. What happened to some Jews or Muslims a long time ago is what happened to those individuals and does not somehow mean a Jew or Muslim who was born 50 years later therefore had it happen to him. It does not work that way.

But any way, we got pretty specific in the "Boot it out!" thread. Dodobird gave his understanding (well-informed of course because he lives in Israel and seems well educated) of the history of the situation and talked about why Jews have done various things at various times. It would be really cool if you would go to that thread and respond to that specific discussion accordingly, if you are very knowledgeable on Palestinian history and perspectives. I hope to see you post there.