Thread: Utilitarianism

Originally Posted by The

I'm certainly not a moral objectivist. (It is moral objectivism we are talking about here, no?)[/b]

Not necessarily, though that could be part of it. Objectivism (cap O) is a western philosophy that recognizes reality for what it is - A is A and never B, that reason is man's only way to perceive and interpret reality, that ethics and morals are defined by self-interest, and that laissez-faire capitalism is the only truly moral and ethical economic system. It is as far as you can get from pragmatism.

I see the lack of objective morals and ethics being incredibly dangerous, as supported by a review of the most horrific acts throughout history. "The End Justifies The Means" has been the reasoning behind the deaths of hundreds of millions throughout history, by people and governments who were certain they were making a necessary (and thus pragmatic) sacrifice in bettering the world.

Without objective morals and ethics, there is nothing stopping you reasoning your way to justifying harm to me and then carrying out that harm with a completely clear conscious and possibly without social or legal detriment.

Objectivism places morals and ethics on the solid foundation of rational selfishness.

Originally Posted by pj

I see the lack of objective morals and ethics being incredibly dangerous, as supported by a review of the most horrific acts throughout history. "The End Justifies The Means" has been the reasoning behind the deaths of hundreds of millions throughout history, by people and governments who were certain they were making a necessary (and thus pragmatic) sacrifice in bettering the world.

Without objective morals and ethics, there is nothing stopping you reasoning your way to justifying harm to me and then carrying out that harm with a completely clear conscious and possibly without social or legal detriment.[/b]

Actually, it's morality and ethics, and objectivity, the idea that something is objectively right, that has caused half of the world's problems. Crusades. Why did they happen? Because people honestly thought their religion was objectively right.

Even if you want to take the holocaust as an example - was this an example of objectivism or utlitarianism? Well, if you ask me, it's BOTH. Utilitarianism isn't the opposite of objectivism, it's a derivative of it. Utilitarianism is a system of thought based on the principle that the greatest good to the greatest number is somehow objectively right. Utilitarianism is just a system of morality based on principles which are just as objectivist as any other. The objectivist tenets are just a bit hidden, is all.

Also, and maybe this is just me, but PJ: You see the idea of "The Greater Good" as behind some of the world's biggest atrocities. I wou;ldn;t dispute that. But to me, the idea of "The Greater Good" is OBJECTIVIST rather than neccesarily utilitarian.

Originally Posted by The

Also, and maybe this is just me, but PJ: You see the idea of "The Greater Good" as behind some of the world's biggest atrocities. I wou;ldn;t dispute that. But to me, the idea of "The Greater Good" is OBJECTIVIST rather than neccesarily utilitarian.[/b]

Both of your examples are pragmatism at work. The Crusades or any other "holy war..." - the ugly killing is necessary to bring "salvation" to these barbarians. The result justifies what needs to be done - which just happens to be some human slaughter and misery. Oh well.

The Holocost - the "final solution" to the "Jewish problem"... in the end we end up with a "pure race" and save mankind from a "polluted gene pool." So we need to massacre a few million people to get there - the end justifies the means.

These sorts of justifications are simply not possible under Objectivism - nor under any moral and ethical system that is not situational. It is the soft thinking of this world which justifies people in believing they can define a greater reality than their own perceptions that leads to much human misery and suffering, and is capable of bringing down entire nations. It is in the process of bringing down the United States of America even as we speak, as well as most of the rest of the Western world.