Thread: Food, Diet, And Nutrition

My attitude on eating and health: Stay active and you won't have to worry.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

I know there must be veg*ns out there somewhere in the crowd, and I at least can tackle the issue from the low-carb side, and I know there are plenty of people here in the middle of that spectrum and just as many who don't give a rat's ass what goes down their gullet, so surely we have something to discuss between us all.
My take on ideal nutrition follows a paleolithic model: we are genetically designed to eat fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, mushrooms, and meat. That's it. This suggests a macronutrient ratio surprisingly high in protein and fat, and paradoxically both low in carbs and high in fiber thanks to my impressive vegetable consumption. I think experience has shown that every human innovation meant to "improve" on what nature has provided us has blown up in our faces. We can all agree that aspartame, sucralose, olestra, hydrogenated oils, high fructose corn syrup, and other hypermodern food innovation marvels are bad for our health, but I think what many many people forget is that just a few thousand years ago we added grains to our diet, something that never used to be in our diets, something we'd been living for hundreds of thousands of years without. How can we expect such a sudden, rich and bountiful source of dietary carbohydrates to have not had a drastic impact on modern human health?[/b]

I completely agree with you--caveman diet is healthiest. (I think--some conflicting info, ie China Study showing health benefits of low protein; but also big problems with these cross-cultural retrospective studies). But somewhat hard to stick to; I do my best but end up screwing up a lot. I probably manage it 75% of the time. I do add whey to that, altho I know milk is not something we evolved to eat past babyhood, especially from another species. I've read good and bad about whey protein, but overall with the casein removed I think it is more beneficial than harmful, if organic and hormone-free of course. I'm influenced by the ease of getting really good quality protein with no fat (and no preparation), and it probably shouldn't be included in a strict paleolithic diet. I should probably quit. But it's so easy, and I've tried to cut down on the eggs (too much inflammation increasing arachidonic acid, unfortunately, otherwise there such a perfect food.)You have to eat organic meat that ate it's natural diet too (i.e. cows that ate grass, not corn) otherwise meat is not healthy either.

Did you ever wonder about the first person to drink milk? That was pure craziness; must have been pretty hungry.

Grains and processed food = poison. (literally, grains have poisonous substances in them that cross into the blood thru the gut wall).

I just wish pizza and krispy kreme and ice cream didn't taste so good. That's OK on my new lucid-inducing diet they are banned! (as they should be anyway.) I can eat them in my dreams. I'm a broken record. I say it so often so I can convince myself.

Each research shows a different thing, frankly I don't think anybody really knows what healthy and whats not. I am vegan because I care about animals and the enviroment. Some people say that vegan diet is very healthy, well good for me!

Moonbeam: Campbell has some interesting points in his China Study, but his liver cancer studies with "animal protein" and rats were completely retarded - you can see this magic paragraph in his book where he just fancifully switches from explaining how casein is causing these cancers to explaining how animal protein is doing it, sans explanation. This isn't to say that I don't think high protein/animal protein diets increase the chances of cancer - I think they do, actually. Although there's a lot of debate raging on about macronutrients and which is most insulinotrophic, protein does increase insulin levels and insulin is positively correlated with Insulin-Like Growth Factor 1, which regulated growth hormone levels and cell reproduction levels. I do honestly believe that eating more meat cranks your body into overdrive and makes your cells divide and use up their telomeres sooner, leading to cancer earlier.

But, I've conceded that that's just how our bodies work. Low-protein diets may inhibit that carcinogenesis, but they wreak havoc on everything else about us. To add to it, high carbs lead to insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and heart disease, and hyperglycemia itself appears to fuel cancer cells. So I really do think I'm eating myself to death on a low-carb plan... I'm just doing it slower than I would on anything else.

But I'm sucking down all the superstar antioxidants and phytochemicals - cacao, turmeric, blueberries/pterostilbene, olive oil/hydroxytyrosine, cinnamon, to name a few - to keep myself as radical free as I can.


Or at least in an ideal world. Once you've had carrot cake and banana bread, well... you're right, the tongue never forgets.

You're on a lucid-inducing diet? What sort of foods are you figuring will specifically help you get lucid?


blade5x: I've read some interesting things about conflicting results from medical authorities about exercise: some studies actually show increased mortality with increased exercise. Some fitness experts speculate that endurance athletes are subjecting their bodies to prolonged stresses that they just weren't designed for: the human body was built for short, intense bursts of activity, and the long-term long-distance sports activities we like to think are "extra healthy" for us are really just grinding our joints and hearts into an early grave.

dodobird: This is why I default to the paleolithic style of eating. Some people say vegan diets are good, others say it's bad. Some people say paleolithic eating is good, and others bad, but despite what anyone says about it, this style of eating has an evolutionary precedent to it that no other diet can lay claim to. Still, what works for you is good enough for me. If you choose to eat on ethical principles first and health-conscious principles second, then I have no good arguments to make you eat meat.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

But, I've conceded that that's just how our bodies work. Low-protein diets may inhibit that carcinogenesis, but they wreak havoc on everything else about us. To add to it, high carbs lead to insulin resistance, metabolic syndrome, diabetes, and heart disease, and hyperglycemia itself appears to fuel cancer cells. So I really do think I'm eating myself to death on a low-carb plan... I'm just doing it slower than I would on anything else.[/b]

It's so complicated that I have to come back to what we evolved to eat must be the healthiest. However, reading the opinions of some CRON practictioners, some make the case that it can be improved upon. I'm on the CRON society list, but I mostly do it for the information and latest updates, also inspiration--those people are hard-core.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

But I'm sucking down all the superstar antioxidants and phytochemicals - cacao, turmeric, blueberries/pterostilbene, olive oil/hydroxytyrosine, cinnamon, to name a few - to keep myself as radical free as I can.[/b]

Yea, but next thing you know they find out too much of something is actually pro-antioxidant; or there's something carcinogenic in cinnamon if you eat the whole thing rather than an extract (a recent CRON list topic), on and on. So whole foods are probably best...on the other hand, I'm a supplement junkie too, because I can't possibly get all that stuff in my food. I'm schizophrenic, I know.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

You're on a lucid-inducing diet? What sort of foods are you figuring will specifically help you get lucid?[/b]

Well mostly it consists of a lack of food; not necessarily a severe decrease in calories but a lack of yummy food. This causes me to dream about food, which I am trying to use as a dreamsign. For a while, I was (trying) to eat only something I was jokingly calling the "gruel"; actually it is a mixture of veggie/berry extract (Living Fuel brand), whey protein, brewer's yeast, hemp powder, bee pollen, cocoa, and a little cinnamon. This is high-protein, low-fat, low glycemic. That's a little hard to maintain as a sole source of nutrition, also expensive, so this week I am eating a vegan protein bar (mostly almond butter and rice protein) for breakfast, a boiled egg for a snack, veggie soup and sardines rolled in seaweed for lunch, berries and mixed nuts for another snack, and the gruel for supper. So I'm not really deprived, but maintaining it is hard for a person who really likes to eat chocolate and stuff (like me). I start dreaming about food as soon as I get strict. (I go back and forth on the egg; choline--good; arachadonic acid--bad; depends on which thing I'm thinking about at the grocery store. I guess eggs would only have been in season a short time prehistorically? Or do tropical birds lay eggs all the time? I never thought about that before&#33

I agree that those extended period of aerobic exercise are harmful--Yes! That sucks anyway.

Dodobird--I admire your veganism. I was a vegetarian-vegan for a long time, teens onward, then when I started lifting weights, and as I could afford it,I added back meat as I could get free-range, as cruelty free as possible. Now I am starting to go back the other way again; I think a little fish, a little poultry is much more healthy than steaks and hamburgers.

I like this topic. So far my formula for staying healthy is as simple as: plants and animals. Also, being that I live in America and a large portion of our food, air, and water is poisoned. It's wise to stay away from food additives and ingredients that you cannot pronounce. Instead buying your own ingredients and cooking food yourself. People stress organic, but I've read that therapeutic is better. The closer to nature the better I guess. I've also heard that a vegan diet is better, but one argument against it is that we have carnivorous teeth. So overall, keeping a balance between fruit/vegetables and animals/protein is my ideal way of eating healthy.

I do TRY to eat healthy. I don't drink soda any more, I try not to eat snacks all day long, I try to eat fruit and vegetables every day.

Emphasis on Trying, but once day, I might succeed. Good nutrition is really improtant.

I've also come to believe that you can eat an all vegan diet and receive all the nutrients you need. I also believe that a fruit or vegetable will out weight the nutritional benefits of any animal product. From a spiritual perspective, they say that such foods in a vegan diet has the highest vibrational energies and you will feel more energized.

From what I read, the only thing lacking in a vegan diet is B12 vitamine, so I sometimes take it as a sublingual tablet.

Spamtek, I thought a little about the idea you presented of eating what we evolved on, and I see a problem with it.
The problem is that scientists say that in the past people lived much shorter life, like up to about 40, and anything above that was considered rare.
Also, evolutionary speaking, we don't have to live a very long life, just as long as we can reproduce, rear our children and teach them all that is nassacary for survival ( including show them how to take care of their own children ).
I think that goal can be achived by the time we are about forty. After that we slowly grow old and evetually become a burden on the tribe.
These days we want to double this life time, and we want to stay as healthy and productive as possible during all that time.
Taking this into acount, I think that eating exactly what we evolved to eat is not a good guide.

maybe I misunderstand the term "Vegan"
but I always thought it went far beyond just consumption

not doing or being a part of anything that has dead animals in the mix

that simply can't happen

Originally Posted by Ynot

maybe I misunderstand the term "Vegan"
but I always thought it went far beyond just consumption

not doing or being a part of anything that has dead animals in the mix

that simply can't happen[/b]

Well, there are no strict rules, and there can be many variants to vegan. I don't eat meat, fish, dairy products and eggs. I don't buy leather shoes, belts or any leather product.
Some are more extreme than I am, for example they wouldn't play a ball game with a leather ball, they wouldn't go to a restaurant that also sells meat etc.

Originally Posted by petersonad

I've also come to believe that you can eat an all vegan diet and receive all the nutrients you need. I also believe that a fruit or vegetable will out weight the nutritional benefits of any animal product. From a spiritual perspective, they say that such foods in a vegan diet has the highest vibrational energies and you will feel more energized.[/b]

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=199842005

Removing animal foods from a child’s diet is "unethical" and damaging, and produces smaller, lethargic and less capable children, said Professor Lindsay Allen, of California University, who carried out a two-year study on 544 Kenyan children.

Ha-Ha.

Originally Posted by Neruo

http://news.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=199842005

Removing animal foods from a child’s diet is "unethical" and damaging, and produces smaller, lethargic and less capable children, said Professor Lindsay Allen, of California University, who carried out a two-year study on 544 Kenyan children.

Ha-Ha.[/b]

Some researchers claim otherwise.

Originally Posted by dodobird

Well, there are no strict rules, and there can be many variants to vegan. I don't eat meat, fish, dairy products and eggs. I don't buy leather shoes, belts or any leather product.
Some are more extreme than I am, for example they wouldn't play a ball game with a leather ball, they wouldn't go to a restaurant that also sells meat etc.[/b]

yeah,
this is broadly what I understand as well
but there's "animal" products in virtually everything thats manufactured

Tallow (processed animal fat) is used as a lubricant when rolling sheet metal

also, and here's the clincher, it's used in solder - Ie. every electrical product from toaster to washing machine to computer has dead animals associated with it's manufacture

well, anyway......

Originally Posted by Ynot

yeah,
this is broadly what I understand as well
but there's "animal" products in virtually everything thats manufactured

Tallow (processed animal fat) is used as a lubricant when rolling sheet metal

also, and here's the clincher, it's used in solder - Ie. every electrical product from toaster to washing machine to computer has dead animals associated with it's manufacture

well, anyway......[/b]

well, being too fanatic will just make you isolated and not help the animal cause.
In my opinion the right way is to blend in with society and try to influence it towards reducing cruelty towards animal.

it's a nice concept
but, and I got to be honest, totally unworkable
unless a supplier starts selling "ethical solder"
and convinces all it's customers to manufacture their products with it

maybe I'm cynical

Originally Posted by Ynot

it's a nice concept
but, and I got to be honest, totally unworkable
unless a supplier starts selling "ethical solder"
and convinces all it's customers to manufacture their products with it

maybe I'm cynical[/b]

I agree, but a change can be made gradually.
You don't have to strive for a perfect world all at once. Just a small change to the better, and then another etc is a good way to advance, and indeed some progress have been made already.

I think the best thing to do is educate kids at school
I still remember a school trip I had to a farm when I was about 12

we got shown pretty much the complete process (minus the killing and sawing part), from cow moo'ing in a field to being ready to ship to the shops in packages

it shows you the process for what it is
and showing you first hand - which I think's really important

I've always been pro-choice
make your own mind up
just don't mislead people (happens on both sides)

Originally posted by Neruo
Removing animal foods from a child’s diet is "unethical" and damaging, and produces smaller, lethargic and less capable children, said Professor Lindsay Allen, of California University, who carried out a two-year study on 544 Kenyan children.

Interesting... to me, they're confusing positive and negative traits in there. "lethargic" and "less capable" are obviously not things you want in your kids, but "smaller"... Smaller people on average live longer, have less incidence of cancer, and course need less resources to survive. Body size is determined at least partially by human growth hormone, which is regulated at least partially by IGF-1, which correlates to levels of insulin in the bloodstream. Animal products increase insulin production, but as far as I know, carbs and sugary foods spike insulin to a far greater extent... dairy in particular is incredibly insulinotrophic considering its macronutrient ratio.

I don't think we should be itching to have big kids; it's just a detriment to their health in the long run. I see the biggest dietary factors impacting body size to be sugars and dairy products, but not meat.

Originally posted by dodobird
Spamtek, I thought a little about the idea you presented of eating what we evolved on, and I see a problem with it.
The problem is that scientists say that in the past people lived much shorter life, like up to about 40, and anything above that was considered rare.
Also, evolutionary speaking, we don't have to live a very long life, just as long as we can reproduce, rear our children and teach them all that is nassacary for survival ( including show them how to take care of their own children ).
I think that goal can be achived by the time we are about forty. After that we slowly grow old and evetually become a burden on the tribe.
These days we want to double this life time, and we want to stay as healthy and productive as possible during all that time.
Taking this into acount, I think that eating exactly what we evolved to eat is not a good guide.

You're right spot on, evolution is predisposed to those who reproduce fastest and most successfully, not those who live the longest. But I maintain despite this: we are designed to eat foods that will kill us sooner rather than later. Yet, if we eat foods we weren't designed to eat at all, they will kill us even sooner than that.

There's little evidence on the change in average human lifespan during the transition from the paleolithic period (meat&#33 to the neolithic (grains&#33, but IIRC Loren Cordain mentions in a research paper of his, somewhere, that early neolithic man was not any more resilient or long-lived than late paleolithic man was - and if anything, was slightly shorter lived and showed much more frequent signs of malformed backs and stressed skeletons due to the absolutely grueling labor involved in early farming.

Originally posted by petersonad
I've also come to believe that you can eat an all vegan diet and receive all the nutrients you need. I also believe that a fruit or vegetable will out weight the nutritional benefits of any animal product. From a spiritual perspective, they say that such foods in a vegan diet has the highest vibrational energies and you will feel more energized.

All the nutrients as currently recognized by modern nutritionists, yes. But you can't muster a natural vegan diet; you need B12 in pills. I simply reject any diet that requires me to pop supplements to be complete.

Compare bananas to beef liver and then get back to me on nutrient density.

Originally posted by Moonbeam
Yea, but next thing you know they find out too much of something is actually pro-antioxidant; or there's something carcinogenic in cinnamon if you eat the whole thing rather than an extract (a recent CRON list topic), on and on. So whole foods are probably best...on the other hand, I'm a supplement junkie too, because I can't possibly get all that stuff in my food.

From what I understand, the water-soluble part of cinnamon is what garners you the antioxidant and insulin-sensitivity benefits, so theoretically cinnamon tea would do the trick. I am personally of the belief that if you eat enough variety of plants, though, your body is smart enough to use the good things about each to negate the bad things about each. Diversity is health's free lunch, so I have no compunctions about sprinkling my morning fruit with cinnamon. Maybe the cilantro for lunch will chelate the toxins; maybe my blueberries will perform an antioxidant knockout on them. All of the substances I take have a thousands-of-years traditional precedent in some world tradition or the other, so I'm not too worried yet. CRONies are pretty good about worrying themselves to... yeah, death. I personally think calorie restriction is a bastardized take on intermittent feeding, which makes much more sense from an evolutionary perspective. Each of them gets their benefits from making an organism hungry and triggering genetically coded preservation protocols, but CRON is a damn hell lot less fun.

You're lucky you have such a reliable method to induce LDs with; I just dream about food all the time whether or not I'm currently eating it.

Eggs are supposedly so inflammatory, but I've yet to read an article on PubMed that conclusively linked substantial egg consumption to compromised blood lipid values - usually it raised cholesterol a little, but lowered LDL and increased the size of LDL particles slightly. That's not necessarily linked strongly with inflammation itself, but I don't see their AA content as reason alone to not eat them. What's your o-3/o-6 ratio? I'm pulling off 1:4 at the moment.

I think meat can be healthy. Just not as much as people are eating right now.

Eating meat does fuck up the world. If we didn't stuff so much cows full of grain, but gave it away, Africa would have more then enough food.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

All the nutrients as currently recognized by modern nutritionists, yes. But you can't muster a natural vegan diet; you need B12 in pills. I simply reject any diet that requires me to pop supplements to be complete.[/b]

Well, just to be complete, it needs to be said that some people who are vegan have enough B12, and some people who eat meat don't have enough of it, and suffer from B12 deficiecy related problems.
The reason some vegans have enough B12 is that B12 is synthesized naturaly by bacteria in the intestines, and also B12 does exist in small amounts in plants (because of bacteria's that grow around the plant). The problem is that most of the B12 that is synthesized in the intestines, is synthesized below the area where it is absorbed effectivly.
The absorbtion quality of B12 differs greatly from person to person, and it depends on many factors, such as the diet that the person is eating. If your absorption is very good you will have enough B12 even on a vegan diet.
Some people have such a poor absorption that they have B12 deficiency even though they eat animal products. The only way to find out is to have blood tests every year or two.

Originally Posted by Spamtek

Compare bananas to beef liver and then get back to me on nutrient density.[/b]

The liver nutrient density is the highest. But it is also the highest source of toxins: pesticides, hormones and antibiotics, and because of that some researchers say it's the most unhealthy part of the animal. In any case, it's not fair to compare it with banana. How about a comparison with parsley?
That site gives parsly 5 stars for health, while liver gets 3.5 stars. Parsley is very nutritios ( both because of it's contents, and because of the fact that you eat it uncooked ) and far less toxic, especiely if you buy it organic, or grow it yourself. I grow it in pots on my balcony, and so it doesn't even cost me anything

Originally Posted by Spamtek

What's your o-3/o-6 ratio? I'm pulling off 1:4 at the moment.[/b]

I haven't calculated it; but it's got to be high. I take a borage oil to offset some of the omega 3.

dodobird has a good point that the cavemen weren't in it for the real long term. That is the arguement of the CRONies. I can easily get influenced to that direction; I think Loren Cordain's plan is a little heavy on the meat. It's hard to cook meat without causing bad by-products (AGES), altho the evidence that agriculture shortened humans' life-span, caused cancer and diabetes and osteoporosis and malnutritiion, etc. with back-breaking labor and periodic famine as pleasant associations, is a convincing argument against grains. So a caveman diet, leaning towards one who wasn't a reallly good hunter and who had a slow-cooker, maybe? I'm starting to think that may be best.

I'm vegetarian. I don't much like meat, and don't trust the companies that supply it anyhow.

Humans are frugivores, about 3% of the diet should be meat, not 300% like the FDA would have you believe. Eating meat is good for some people, and not so for others. Organic however is a must.

Personally, I eat all organic, and I do eat eggs, which is why I am not Vegan. Milk is absolutely horrible for you with all the crap added to it, so it's related items are not good as well. Refined sugars, trans fats, and chemical additives such as MSG and others that companies use to exploit us I avoid. I drink filtered water and green tea, that's it. I have not known sickness or even the "common" cold in almost ten years. My immune system has become a powerhouse.

The worst thing is expense. I have to pay much more for them not to poison my food, but other than that, there is no problem. I do not see it as being deprived of tasty food, rather I see it the opposite way. Once you get used to eating what you were meant to eat, all that junk is not even desirable, and you eat less as well. Food becomes medicine for the body as it was meant to be; not a recreational activity for the benefit of greedy corporations. This is not to say, however, that eating has become boring or less enjoyable.

...and I believe diet is as important as the other things. It was the thought of not being exploited, decieved, controlled that made my diet change. Thought changed my diet, and my diet led to regular exercise, so they are all connected. Now I always strive to reach my mental and physical potential. I do not miss anything about the soda drinking, margarine eating days.

Originally posted by Neruo
Eating meat does fuck up the world. If we didn't stuff so much cows full of grain, but gave it away, Africa would have more then enough food.

The earth has more than enough food at the moment to fill every human being on earth to bursting. The problem is not of supply (which we have) but of economics and delivery: too many people are too ridiculously poor to afford the price for food, even if it's being sold at cost.

Personally, I say reproducing fucks up the world. The #1 problem on my list of Earth's Big Fuckups is overpopulation. This is going to sound wicked, but... if a virulent plague swept across the globe and killed off 5 of every 6 people on this planet earth, it would be awful, painful, unjust beyond measure - but it would also really help us out on our long-term prospects for comfortable survival. Until we ballooned back up to 6-7 billion within a few generations (because our gonads never learn their lessons).

<div align="center">----</div>

dodobird, I&#39;ve never heard these claims, even by hardcore vegans. Even vegsource has issued a heartfelt plea to vegans to take their B12 supps. Variability of absorption considered, though, you must admit that a diet high in B12 is guaranteed to be more likely to meet your nutritional needs than a diet without any at all. If B12 absorption is so unreliable, what does this say about how we evolved to eat? - that, perhaps, our bodies let that issue slide because on average we were getting more than enough from seafoods, meats, and organs (and bugs, actually)?

I know comparing bananas to beef liver was a skewed comparison, but I was just refuting petersonad&#39;s claim that any fruit/veggie will always be more nutritionally dense than any animal product, period. Consider too that nutritionally dense animal products may have nutrient profiles unique unto themselves when compared to plant foods in general, so that quality becomes an issue beside quantity. There are plenty of plant foods that are more nutrient-complete than beef liver - parsley, like you mentioned, spinach (if you ignore the oxalates), cocoa... I&#39;ve never suggested that meat should be the be-all and end-all of your dietary intake; it just tends to look that way in paleolithic arguments because that is the part of the diet that sticks out like a sore thumb from all the others.

Liver concentrates nutrients, liver concentrates toxins. But this isn&#39;t a complaint about meat, it&#39;s a complaint about how meat is raised. Telling me liver is bad for me on that point is like me telling you that apples are inherently bad because they&#39;ve soaked up pesticides and fungicides and vegetable wax. These are complaints to be leveled against mainstream agriculture, not the foods it produces. And if you get to avoid those pitfalls of poisoned produce by going organic or homegrown, why can&#39;t I avoid mine by going local and grass-fed? In such a case these toxins, a result of human meddling and cupidity, are greatly reduced or eliminated entirely.

Originally posted by Moonbeam+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Moonbeam)</div>

dodobird has a good point that the cavemen weren&#39;t in it for the real long term. That is the arguement of the CRONies. I can easily get influenced to that direction; I think Loren Cordain&#39;s plan is a little heavy on the meat. It&#39;s hard to cook meat without causing bad by-products (AGES), altho the evidence that agriculture shortened humans&#39; life-span, caused cancer and diabetes and osteoporosis and malnutritiion, etc. with back-breaking labor and periodic famine as pleasant associations, is a convincing argument against grains. So a caveman diet, leaning towards one who wasn&#39;t a reallly good hunter and who had a slow-cooker, maybe? I&#39;m starting to think that may be best.[/b]

Ironically, what makes a CRONie a CRONie is the emulation of a caveman&#39;s feeding patterns - not what he ate, but when and how much. Or at least a bastardized take on it, again, I think IF is the real deal and that CRON is a very uncomfortable emulation.

It&#39;s unfair to talk about cooked meat killing you: cooked anything will kill you - with acrylamides, nitrosamines, AGEs, and god knows what else we haven&#39;t found yet. If it has calories and you heat it up, it is going to screw with your body.

You&#39;ve read about the exacerbation of the insulin response and FMD when carbs are paired with fats (esp. saturated fats), right? And the amelioration of saturated fat&#39;s artery-constricting effects when paired with protein? I think a lot of the bad rep that fat and Sat fat gets is really because it&#39;s always studied under conditions that vary from how we used to eat - in meat, with protein, in a proper balance of Sat/Mono/Poly, sans carbohydrates.

<!--QuoteBegin-Never
I&#39;m vegetarian. I don&#39;t much like meat, and don&#39;t trust the companies that supply it anyhow.

Humans are frugivores, about 3% of the diet should be meat, not 300% like the FDA would have you believe. Eating meat is good for some people, and not so for others. Organic however is a must.

Why do you think the meat industry is any more villainous than any other industry? They&#39;re all going to pull the strings to try and make you buy as much of their product as they can, whether it&#39;s prime rib or strawberries or wheaties. Of course you multiply the ethical dilemma into the equation and I can see where you&#39;re coming from - but then it&#39;s not an objection based on a company&#39;s duplicity, but their production methods and standards. No worthwhile person would condone for half an instant the practices of factory farming.

Humans are frugivores? This is news to me. Why are fruitarians so stupendously unsuccessful on their diets? Why do we have canines, an omnivore&#39;s intestinal tract, a difficulty in absorbing many plant-sourced nutrients (nonheme iron, carotenes, etc.), a bitterness threshold closer to cats than to rabbits?

I&#39;m happy that you&#39;ve awakened to the reality of the mass-marketed filth that clogs our supermarket aisles, though - I just don&#39;t think meat automatically qualifies as filth just because is is animal flesh. If price is an issue - do you have any farmer&#39;s markets around, or local co-ops? You can get produce for a ridiculous pittance at those places, and it&#39;s infinitely better than anything at Whole Foods.