Thread: A question about polar ice caps

Climate change summary:

Originally Posted by pj

In one of the two forums I participate in from time to time, an
off-topic discussion has started about the whole "Global Warming" thing.
I was asked point-blank how a "reasonable person" such as myself could
hold the views I do. (The questioner doesn't know me very well, obviously.)

Here is how I tried to answer that. It isn't eloquent or concise, but it
does give a pretty fair outline of my secular view of government:

--

Maybe you are finding my arguments annoying because they really do come
more from an anarchist perspective. I'm not a true anarchist, though I
was at one point. Some government, I believe, is necessary - simply
because of human nature. Sadly, human nature will also ALWAYS exploit
the power of government.

Let me sum things up as concisely as I can, in the most general terms
possible:

Here we have the government - US, "world community," and most troubling,
the UN, telling us there is this huge crisis that is threatening life as
we know it.

Those governments then tell us the only solution is more government -
and GLOBAL government at that, via Kyoto!!!

Isn't your BS detector blowing right off the scale here? Mine is... and
has been since this whole things started a very long time ago.

One of the headline stories for Time Magazine yesterday was "Climate
Change: Case Closed". Oh, really? We have finally reached that point in
human history where we can close a line of scientific questioning with
absolute certainty? Apparently so, when the "solution" is to pillage the
strongest wealth creators in the world.

If Kyoto is a solution, why does it exempt China and Russia, two of the
most "egregious" CO2 producers in the world because of their still
backwards but explosively growing economies?

Even if there were a real crisis - be it this or any other - government
is the LAST place rational people should be investing their trust to
come up with solutions. That being said, government is the LAST source I
am going to believe and put any faith in to discern crises in the first
place. People thrive in SPITE of government, if they can. Businesses
prosper in SPITE of government, when they can. Government produces no
wealth... it is a parasite, existing primarily to increase its own power
and wealth. (When was the last time any politician retired poor?)

You asked why a "reasonable person" such as myself would hold these
views. I don't know how else to put it - other than to begin to get into
some of my personal experiences with involvement in research and
activism, which I'm not going to do here. These are the views of one man
- and apparently not so terribly convincing views as all that. I DO have
a fear for our future and some very real crises - government growth,
curtailment of liberty and the ability of humans to create wealth, forge
their own futures and create their own solutions, government
indebtedness, economic manipulation... and mostly, the ever growing
promise that "they" will take something from you and give it to me if I
just play along with them.

Perhaps you are finding out I'm not really so reasonable as all that. I
have been called an "Extremist" - back when that word was originally
being demonized way back in the early '90's. I wear that label proudly,
as I earned it by loving liberty and through my faith in humans to solve
their own problems - if they are simply allowed the freedom to do so.

That's enough of a dissertation for this morning. I'm off to another
LONG day of creating wealth for myself and my family... after the
gumment takes their not so insignificant bites out of it.

Originally Posted by Howie

Climate change summary: -- etc, etc, etc...

Howie, I have no idea who's original text this is or if it matches your own views or not, but I suppose it really doesn't matter as it adds absolutely no value to this thread at all. At least Xei has put some thought into his replies, we've at least we've had some intelligent discourse concerning science, politics, etc.

But this "I will not believe it because the government says it's true," is a laughable way to live your life. Aren't you aware that governments don't agree with each other? What do you do in that case?

The US's official policy goes quite against supporting Global Warming. Does your government-wacko detector filter out Bush for some reason?

Originally Posted by skysaw

Howie, I have no idea who's original text this is or if it matches your own views or not, but I suppose it really doesn't matter as it adds absolutely no value to this thread at all. At least Xei has put some thought into his replies, we've at least we've had some intelligent discourse concerning science, politics, etc.

But this "I will not believe it because the government says it's true," is a laughable way to live your life. Aren't you aware that governments don't agree with each other? What do you do in that case?

The US's official policy goes quite against supporting Global Warming. Does your government-wacko detector filter out Bush for some reason?

As you can see I have quoted pj on this summary.
No value?
What value have you added that I have not heard three hundred times?
Perhaps you should try to think outside of conventional thinking.

I myself think looking at the largest source of public information is pretty imperative.
I could keep posting little excerpts on rising water temperatures and the like but an overview of the source I think adds a powerful perspective.
Sorry to disappoint.

Originally Posted by Howie

[COLOR=Teal]
As you can see I have quoted pj on this summary.

Who is PJ? Why should I know PJ? Is there anything relevant that you can tell me about PJ? You just plonked down a quote, and expected us to understand what it meant to you.

No value?
What value have you added that I have not heard three hundred times?
Perhaps you should try to think outside of conventional thinking.

Gee, I don't know. How much of it exactly HAVE you heard three hundred times? Am I supposed to know this too? Are you telling me you read everything I wrote and don't have a single constructive criticism of any of my points or references? Come on... at least TRY to present your argument here. So far you have presented no evidence, no citations, no science, nothing but a mixed-up philosophy that has nothing to do with the subject. Nobody is impressed when you run around flapping your arms yelling "Whee! I'm an anarchist! Look at me bash the government!" Why are we supposed to care?

I myself think looking at the largest source of public information is pretty imperative.

Again... why be so mysterious. Come out and TELL us what you think this source of public information is, and how it fits in. I cited quite a bit of public information and challenge you to discredit it in some way other than your natural suspicion of public figures.

I could keep posting little excerpts on rising water temperatures and the like but an overview of the source I think adds a powerful perspective.

Very hard to get a powerful perspective when the source in question hasn't been identified any further than "PJ." Is PJ the new world authority on climate?

[quote=skysaw;449227]Who is PJ? Why should I know PJ? Is there anything relevant that you can tell me about PJ? You just plonked down a quote, and expected us to understand what it meant to you.[quote]

Why would this matter. It is a perspective. Do I know your sources?
Do you? OR ~ Google?

Gee, I don't know. How much of it exactly HAVE you heard three hundred times?

Try the search method

Very hard to get a powerful perspective when the source in question hasn't been identified any further than "PJ." Is PJ the new world authority on climate?

Please tell me who the WORLD AUTHORITY is. Then I can put my idioms aside and we can just clarify the answers, No?

Originally Posted by Howie

Why would this matter. It is a perspective. Do I know your sources? Do you? OR ~ Google?

Ok, so it's a random opinion you copied and pasted from someone you don't even know. Thanks for clearing that up. I just wanted to know whose opinion it was... pretty standard stuff when you're trying to have healthy discourse that actually makes sense.

Try the search method

Shame on me. I was completely unaware that there was a search engine that had the option of finding "everything that Howie has heard 300 times." That really could come in handy.

Please tell me who the WORLD AUTHORITY is. Then I can put my idioms aside and we can just clarify the answers, No?

Apparently it's PJ, since his opinion is good enough to just copy in whole and present it to the community without comment. It would seem that his views are so clear to you that you don't have a single disagreement or alternative perspective to his. Or could it be that you just don't have a perspective of your own? Honestly, I would like to know since you still haven't presented one.

PJ
A Moderator
Also another member, Peregrinus
Both have very interesting observations on the issue of climate change.

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...Global+warming
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...Global+warming
http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...Global+warming

http://www.dreamviews.com/community/...hlight=climate