What's the dealio with GOP candidate Ron Paul?

I take a different tone when it comes to political topics. Because in religion there isn't a simple "yes this is true" "no this is not" I feel it is slightly different in the political realm. And I don't really care to comment anymore in this discussion. I find you are too set in your ways to even try and comprehend (not that I think you can't) what I was trying to say and we will go in loops and loops. About "yes I said this, no I didn't say that" because when I read what you wrote I just keep saying to myself "Hmmm, nooo that is not what I was saying." or "He missed my point" whereas in the religion forms I am much more open and trying to challenge beliefs I find even your attitude to be much more authoritative and un-open.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

I take a different tone when it comes to political topics. Because in religion there isn't a simple "yes this is true" "no this is not" I feel it is slightly different in the political realm. And I don't really care to comment anymore in this discussion. I find you are too set in your ways to even try and comprehend (not that I think you can't) what I was trying to say and we will go in loops and loops. About "yes I said this, no I didn't say that" because when I read what you wrote I just keep saying to myself "Hmmm, nooo that is not what I was saying." or "He missed my point" whereas in the religion forms I am much more open and trying to challenge beliefs I find even your attitude to be much more authoritative and un-open.

---

Set in my ways? I took a lot of time to have an on-point dialogue with you about this, so you are being dishonest once again. I have completely welcomed and invited your detailed responses, so you have no basis for assuming that I wish to shut out what you say. Yet you say that any way. Keep in mind that your rudeness alone, which is the dominant theme in your posts, is completely noneducational, aside from giving me more perspective on how the leftist mind works. You can talk about this stuff without being rude. If it is really peace that you value, show it in your own behavior.

Please re-read that post. I am obviously angry, anger and peace can go hand in hand. I mostly react that way because I sense the same from your posts, could just be my own perception though so forgive me...I'll try to work on it.

And for the recrod, don't say I have a "leftist" mind because I in no way think of myself as "leftist" or "rightist" or any side. My interests are for my country and that of my own life and my fellow person's lives. Calling me a "leftist" is incredibly ignorant and assumptions and it shows the reason I get aggravated from reading your posts. It is the same thing as when this guy comes into my work and walks up to the front office and says "Oh hey you liberals how is it going?" I never once called you a neo-con. I said you were form Mississippi which I apologize for, not apologizing for being from mississippi but for assuming you are a redneck-bush-love just for being from there. So can you accept an apology and maybe not come off as so "I am right!" all the time, because you are only going to get the same back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Set in my ways? I took a lot of time to have an on-point dialogue with you about this, so you are being dishonest once again. I have completely welcomed and invited your detailed responses, so you have no basis for assuming that I wish to shut out what you say. Yet you say that any way. Keep in mind that your rudeness alone, which is the dominant theme in your posts, is completely noneducational, aside from giving me more perspective on how the leftist mind works. You can talk about this stuff without being rude. If it is really peace that you value, show it in your own behavior.

---

LOL. That's it... everyone else is rude, narcissistic, and uneducated. God forbid if UM is actually ever wrong about something. There can't possibly be a way that he could just be simply living in delusion sucking on that mass-media teet, even though the only other person on here that ever agrees with him went off and sold his soul to kill people in Iraq for the corporate plutocracy called, America. :roll:

Do you really need to wonder why people step back and concede from arguing with you? I'll give you a hint... it's definitely not because of your unparalleled wit and insight. :chuckle:

welp, thats a step in the wrong direction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SolSkye

LOL. That's it... everyone else is rude, narcissistic, and uneducated. God forbid if UM is actually ever wrong. There can't possibly be a way that he could just be simply living in delusion sucking on that mass-media teet, even though the only other person on here that ever agrees with him went off and sold his soul to kill people in Iraq for the corporate plutocracy called, America. :roll:

Do you really need to wonder why people step back from arguing with you? I'll give you a hint... it's definitely not because of your unparalleled wit and insight. :chuckle:

---

Oh great, it's the return of... Solskye. :|

I know YOU kept backing down to my arguments because you couldn't argue with them. I notice that your post above countered absolutely none of my points. That seems to be a trend with you. You should be proud. :goodjob2:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

Please re-read that post. I am obviously angry, anger and peace can go hand in hand. I mostly react that way because I sense the same from your posts, could just be my own perception though so forgive me...I'll try to work on it.

And for the recrod, don't say I have a "leftist" mind because I in no way think of myself as "leftist" or "rightist" or any side. My interests are for my country and that of my own life and my fellow person's lives. Calling me a "leftist" is incredibly ignorant and assumptions and it shows the reason I get aggravated from reading your posts. It is the same thing as when this guy comes into my work and walks up to the front office and says "Oh hey you liberals how is it going?" I never once called you a neo-con. I said you were form Mississippi which I apologize for, not apologizing for being from mississippi but for assuming you are a redneck-bush-love just for being from there. So can you accept an apology and maybe not come off as so "I am right!" all the time, because you are only going to get the same back.

---

I do have opinions, and one of them is that at least your views on 9/11 and the Iraq war are leftist. When I debate this stuff, my initial goal is not to say, "Ha ha, I'm right!" I get that way when I am insulted because shit talk becomes part of the game, but not by my initiation. My original goal is to say, "This is how I see it. I want to learn why you think it is wrong." I think angry behavior is unpeaceful, so let's both try to keep it out of our conversation.

Not really, I don't fear idiocy so I call it when I see it and laugh, rather than mask my intentions with eloquence and pretentiousness in order to gain stupidity's respect and admiration.

I thought I'd point out that after weeks of stepping out of these debates he talks in so many circles it's dizzying. Just be forewarned, It'd be wise to rethink wasting your time stepping into the vacuous void of a debate with UM.

Now that I think of it...his avatar makes a lot of sense in describing his debating method. It's kind like a spirograph or blackhole from which no light or rationale can escape. :chuckle:
http://junki.main.jp/fungraphics/Spirograph1.gif

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Oh great, it's the return of... Solskye. :|

I know YOU kept backing down to my arguments because you couldn't argue with them. I notice that your post above countered absolutely none of my points. That seems to be a trend with you. You should be proud. :goodjob2:



I do have opinions, and one of them is that at least your views on 9/11 and the Iraq war are leftist. When I debate this stuff, my initial goal is not to say, "Ha ha, I'm right!" I get that way when I am insulted because shit talk becomes part of the game, but not by my initiation. My original goal is to say, "This is how I see it. I want to learn why you think it is wrong." I think angry behavior is unpeaceful, so let's both try to keep it out of our conversation.

---

Well they are not, because I don't understand where simply trying to get an overall grasp of all sides of the story and all motives and responses and history my peon mind can comprehend on such a complex matter is automatically leftist. I already told you I am a conservative, but even that would give you assumptions about what I think and believe. I am a conservative in the literal meaning of the word. Going to war isn't conservative and the things that lead to 9/11 weren't conservative, and neither was our response that lead us into the wars in the first place. I am defending the innocence of the American people (you tend to think I am blaming them, which I am sorry to say is exactly what fox news says about anyone who says 9/11 was a result of our foreign policy), I am advocating our freedom and democracy and I am most of all trying to make the most logical decisions on what truly will prevent the next attack from extremist groups and make this nation safer and more sovereign. But you can keep calling me a leftist, but that just isn't the case. I see leftists as complainers who fail to come up with any better idea. I have better ideas and Ron Paul fits many of those, that is why I support Ron Paul, not because I am some tree-hugger-hippie-leftist-liberal.

Translation of SolSkye's post: I am still stumped from all of the debates I started having with Universal Mind but was too stumped to finish and as a result resorted to empty insults instead, obviously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

Well they are not, because I don't understand where simply trying to get an overall grasp of all sides of the story and all motives and responses and history my peon mind can comprehend on such a complex matter is automatically leftist. I already told you I am a conservative, but even that would give you assumptions about what I think and believe. I am a conservative in the literal meaning of the word. Going to war isn't conservative and the things that lead to 9/11 weren't conservative, and neither was our response that lead us into the wars in the first place. I am defending the innocence of the American people (you tend to think I am blaming them, which I am sorry to say is exactly what fox news says about anyone who says 9/11 was a result of our foreign policy), I am advocating our freedom and democracy and I am most of all trying to make the most logical decisions on what truly will prevent the next attack from extremist groups and make this nation safer and more sovereign. But you can keep calling me a leftist, but that just isn't the case. I see leftists as complainers who fail to come up with any better idea. I have better ideas and Ron Paul fits many of those, that is why I support Ron Paul, not because I am some tree-hugger-hippie-leftist-liberal.

---

You don't have to get offended by it. Your views on those subjects are considered left wing. It is a fact.

9/11 was not "caused" by our foreign policy. It was caused by members of Al Qaeda, who hate the United States for a mulititude of reasons, as they have stated, one being our foreign policy as it relates to our "infidel" status.

Why are you so obsessed with Fox News?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

I am obviously angry, anger and peace can go hand in hand. I mostly react that way because I sense the same from your posts, could just be my own perception though so forgive me...I'll try to work on it.

---

No way. Universal Mind should be the one apologizing to you. Not the other way around. He totally distorted your views. Like he seems to enjoy doing. I find it odd to say the least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Translation of SolSkye's post: I am still stumped from all of the debates I started having with Universal Mind but was too stumped to finish and as a result resorted to empty insults instead, obviously.

---

And more defamation. King of distortion.

I honestly hope that no one is still taking UM's circular logic seriously...

Here's the circular breakdown:

1.)Someone posts some evidence supporting their opinion regarding a given topic.
2.)UM disagrees with them, but refuses to post any actual evidence as to why. Other than saying, "the majority must be right". Somehow thinking that, official statements must always be held in higher regard even if the facts don't actually add up to that statement being true. Not to mention, we must disregard that these official statements have come from proven liars.
3.)People continue to say he's wrong in his thinking, and refer him back to some more evidence.
4.)Rather than address or disprove this evidence, he says they refused to address his initial point about majority rules, side-steped his anecdotal opinion, and somehow, he feels they must still prove him wrong. Even though, it's only ever been an opinion he's provided us with. Perhaps, at this juncture he'll throw another 'majority rules' scenerio your way...mind you, he still has given no evidence. Maybe a link to someone else's opinion or the official statement itself.
5.)The other person continues to provide him with more and more evidence and the debate begins to slowly decline into this endless repetition of steps 2-5 until someone sees the conversation growing stale, and decides to leave it.

X.)From within the center of this infinite absurdity, UM thinks this concession of the other debating party somehow proves he was initially 'right', and in possession of a flawless way of thinking.

Anyway, It's pretty obvious to me that he's just looking for some sort of attention and emotional escapism from his daily monotony of having to live under a rock in his uneventful podunk town of Jackson, Mississipi. His debating method does a good job of reflecting the monotonous and dull personality of his that people grow ever-so tired with. The fact that he doesn't ever seem to realize, or tire from it himself never ceases to amaze me. I guess, on a daily basis he exists at such an unfathomable level of boredom that these circular debates seem to continually bring something fresh and new to him. Sadly, for him, the most exciting thing in his life he could ever hope to look forward to, would be the emotional equivalent of a taking a dump for a normal person. :shakehead:

SolSkye and Mystic7, making general comments about lies concerning the way I argue and making up really bizarre ad hominem lunacy that comes straight from the sixth grade playground does not qualify as counterarguing. If you think my points are false, prove it by countering them. Otherwise, you are doing nothing more than barking. But feel free to lie. It's the leftist way. :clap:

SolSkye, I think you hold the record for making the most posts in a row dogging the way I argue while not having the guts or the logic to actually argue with what I have said, but Mystic7 is hot on your trail. Be careful. Maybe you can scare him into backing off your numbers by playing that nauseating nightmare you call your music. And if he is actually a woman, maybe you can brag about treating him like shit. But when in doubt, just bark at the wall. It gets you nowhere, which seems to be the place you are trying to go.

Any way, if either of you think you can debate my last political points, surprise me. I already know you can't.

I'm getting bored of this game with universal mind and his tickle me Elmo logic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mystic7

I'm getting bored of this game with universal mind and his tickle me Elmo logic.

---

Aw man, you failed my challenge. I'm just so shocked. Okay, we'll just consider your king turned over. Run along now. Bye bye. :okbyenow:

Quote:

---

Aw man, you failed my challenge. I'm just so shocked. Okay, we'll just consider your king turned over. Run along now. Bye bye

---

You even sound like Elmo. But Elmo with political delusions. With the official 911 big bird conspiracy on sesame street.

Seriously SolSkye is going to get a lot further than you what are you talking about getting no-where? We only go no-where when we are speaking to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

You don't have to get offended by it. Your views on those subjects are considered left wing. It is a fact.

9/11 was not "caused" by our foreign policy. It was caused by members of Al Qaeda, who hate the United States for a mulititude of reasons, as they have stated, one being our foreign policy as it relates to our "infidel" status.

Why are you so obsessed with Fox News?

---

You are playing with words and missing the points I am trying to make. Also, your brash "rightness" about your opinions of my political views makes it very difficult to have an honest discussion with you. You aren't so much concerned with actually looking at evidence or dissecting what I have placed before you, instead you are concerned with "converting" me to your "right wing" mindset, because you see me as some "left winged liberal". This just simply is not the case and until you can change your mind about how you view my posts and information I can't continue with you. If we are going to discuss Ron Paul there is a great deal more to discuss than simply his anti-war stance. Though that plays a huge role in solving many problems the US faces, mostly financially.

And in response to your statement (this is why you are playing with words). Do you think I am some sort of idiot? I know Al-Qeada CAUSED 9/11. I am no idiot and I am not justifying what they did. As Ron Paul puts it WHAT Al-Qeada did was called blowback. They did this BECAUSE, as in their motive, their reason, why they attacked us because of UNJUST things the US did. We were unrightfully involved in the affairs of their nations, what the US has done is killed thousands of their people, unjustifiably twisted balances of power to fit our interests ect ect. If we fail to look at this then we fail to do anything to prevent future attacks.

If Iran bombed us (which is highly unlikely) do you know why they would bomb us? If your answer to that is "they would bomb us because they would bomb us." they maybe you can see how what you are saying doesn't make sense. I am talking about key historical reasons they hate the US and they think the only way to get us to stop is by "and eye for an eye" by killing innocent people. In the last Osama Bin Laden tape he specifically said "There are Christians in this land, and we won't kill them, ect ect" Making an obvious point that he doesn't hate us for our freedom, our religious beliefs ect he hates us because we blindly put people like bush in power who meddle in the affairs of their nations, kill their people, force their beliefs around the world. The 9/11 attacks where a political move, a horrible horrible one that should be looked down upon and the people who carried it out brought to justice. Osama Bin Laden isn't right in what he did, but the reasons he did it are factual, and if we fail to look at them, and keep doing things like them it only drastically increases the chances of us getting attacked. And as you love to say "That is a fact and my point still stands."

Do you think Osama Bin Laden did it just because he is sitting over there in the desert and is like. "THOSE FUCKING AMERICANS WITH THEIR RAP MUSIC GAHHHH!!!!!" or do you think maybe he got that angry because of things we did.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mystic7

Seriously SolSkye is going to get a lot further than you what are you talking about getting no-where? We only go no-where when we are speaking to you.

---

Really? I'm the only person who stumps you? It's not like it's that hard to do.

Quote:

---

Really? I'm the only person who stumps you? It's not like it's that hard to do.

---

You didn't stump me Elmo. That's wrong. Your only pretending. Get your legs off the table it's not number time yet. Wait for Bernie and Ernie.

If we wanted to "debate" or "discuss" the way you do Universal Mind we might as well just end each post with. "I am right, apparently I stumped you." Which shows to me you don't want to discuss you just want to prove someone wrong. But you haven't and you aren't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

You are playing with words and missing the points I am trying to make. Also, your brash "rightness" about your opinions of my political views makes it very difficult to have an honest discussion with you. You aren't so much concerned with actually looking at evidence or dissecting what I have placed before you, instead you are concerned with "converting" me to your "right wing" mindset, because you see me as some "left winged liberal". This just simply is not the case and until you can change your mind about how you view my posts and information I can't continue with you. If we are going to discuss Ron Paul there is a great deal more to discuss than simply his anti-war stance. Though that plays a huge role in solving many problems the US faces, mostly financially.

---

Please stop whining that I think I am right. People usually think they are right when they debate, just like you do in this one. I am arguing on point and giving your perfect opportunities to debate back. That complaint is nothing but a dishonest distraction.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

And in response to your statement (this is why you are playing with words). Do you think I am some sort of idiot? I know Al-Qeada CAUSED 9/11. I am no idiot and I am not justifying what they did. As Ron Paul puts it WHAT Al-Qeada did was called blowback. They did this BECAUSE, as in their motive, their reason, why they attacked us because of UNJUST things the US did. We were unrightfully involved in the affairs of their nations, what the US has done is killed thousands of their people, unjustifiably twisted balances of power to fit our interests ect ect. If we fail to look at this then we fail to do anything to prevent future attacks.

---

Then stop saying the United States' presence in the Middle East CAUSED 9/11!

We have defended democracy in the Middle East. It is why we have been there, and it is why we will continue to be there. Anybody who tries to prevent liberation and the preservation of liberty can die, and they will never have my sympathy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

If Iran bombed us (which is highly unlikely) do you know why they would bomb us? If your answer to that is "they would bomb us because they would bomb us." they maybe you can see how what you are saying doesn't make sense. I am talking about key historical reasons they hate the US and they think the only way to get us to stop is by "and eye for an eye" by killing innocent people. In the last Osama Bin Laden tape he specifically said "There are Christians in this land, and we won't kill them, ect ect" Making an obvious point that he doesn't hate us for our freedom, our religious beliefs ect he hates us because we blindly put people like bush in power who meddle in the affairs of their nations, kill their people, force their beliefs around the world. The 9/11 attacks where a political move, a horrible horrible one that should be looked down upon and the people who carried it out brought to justice. Osama Bin Laden isn't right in what he did, but the reasons he did it are factual, and if we fail to look at them, and keep doing things like them it only drastically increases the chances of us getting attacked. And as you love to say "That is a fact and my point still stands."

---

Lots of innocent Christians have been kidnapped and killed by Al Qaeda. Have you read Bin Laden's letter to the United States? I think you need to do that before you keep making your claims.

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1393057

Be sure you read the whole second part before you comment on it. That is the part that goes into detail about all of the things Al Qaeda hates us for and what they are demanding we do.

I know Al Qaeda has their excuses for attacking us, our spreading of democracy and our wild party influence on the world being two of them. We are not going to give those up, so Ron Paul needs do give up on blaming the excuses and put more focus on the people who make them. You do too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

Do you think Osama Bin Laden did it just because he is sitting over there in the desert and is like. "THOSE FUCKING AMERICANS WITH THEIR RAP MUSIC GAHHHH!!!!!" or do you think maybe he got that angry because of things we did.

---

The rap music is a factor, but I listed a lot of other factors. Read again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

If we wanted to "debate" or "discuss" the way you do Universal Mind we might as well just end each post with. "I am right, apparently I stumped you." Which shows to me you don't want to discuss you just want to prove someone wrong. But you haven't and you aren't.

---

If you were honest, you would recognize that I have only been saying that to people who use pure trolling to return my arguments. I want to debate, and I am pointing out that THEY don't. I think you know that.

Okay, to settle this I don't mean caused in the sense that we intentionally did it. I mean caused as in WRONG things we are doing are leading to these kinds of results and in order to prevent them we need to re-look our involvement in the middle east. THAT is what I am saying, if that is wrong then we might as well choose to disagree and stop wasting each-other's time.

Why is it so important that we are over there? Why is it so important that we provide all these people in the middle east with billions of dollars in weapons? Why is it important that we help out this country, then turn against them, then help their enemies? Why must we do this? Why is it beneficial to me and the people around me that we do this? How does it make us safer by igniting hatred in the minds of insane people? Answer me this, just let your stance out and lets stop debating specific facts and scenarios.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

Okay, to settle this I don't mean caused in the sense that we intentionally did it. I mean caused as in WRONG things we are doing are leading to these kinds of results and in order to prevent them we need to re-look our involvement in the middle east. THAT is what I am saying, if that is wrong then we might as well choose to disagree and stop wasting each-other's time.

Why is it so important that we are over there? Why is it so important that we provide all these people in the middle east with billions of dollars in weapons? Why is it important that we help out this country, then turn against them, then help their enemies? Why must we do this? Why is it beneficial to me and the people around me that we do this? How does it make us safer by igniting hatred in the minds of insane people? Answer me this, just let your stance out and lets stop debating specific facts and scenarios.

---

We defend Israel because we fight to preserve democracy where it exists, especially in the Hell hole that is the Middle East. We have allied with bad governments in the past because we had common enemies. The best example is the Soviet Union in WWII. We invaded Afghanistan because their government was a terrorist organization that harbored Al Qaeda and because the spreading of democracy to countries like that fights poverty and thereby reduces the nesting ground for the future of the suicide bomber mentality. We overthrew the Hussein regime for many reasons, including the fact that they were an enemy terrorist government that violated our ceasefire for 12 years on several terrorism grounds and for the benefit of spreading democracy in the Middle East to reduce the future tendency of the suicide bomber mentality to develop. We have also created a terrorist vacuum that has had thousands and thousands of people with the potential for the terrorist mentality coming out of the wood work so we can capture or kill them. Bending over so the terrorists can make their demands while we get raped would not be so effective.

Okay, so look one step before the statements you just made. And plus you "woodwork" mentality isn't a fact last time I checked. Terrorists aren't like ants, and if they are they are ant's that are shapeshifted from humans, because what we are doing is only GROWING the ant farm. People look at these extremist groups and then look at what we do and then say "Oh these extremists are right." This is why Osama Bin Laden is more popular in Pakistan then their own "Extremist Fighting" leader. We made Osama Bin Laden who he is, why did he turn on us? Iran would have wiped out Saddam Hussien if we hadn't beefed up his military. Israel was a country that was PUT there by the west which is why they are so pissed off. Imagine how irritated we would be if china forced tibet to be in part of canda (a weak analogy I know). But I don't think you are looking at the reality of the situation.

Why I support Ron Paul is because I agree with him. If we just leave they will stop caring about us and turn onto their own governments. If we put our focus on security and intelligence rather than the cost of war I think it would be much more effective. We have the same goals, I just feel yours idea isn't working. I don't have some pro terrorist agenda and that is why it is difficult to discuss this because it seems so ingrained in you this "for us or against us" mentality. Either you support the war or you are a terrorist sympathizer. The world just isn't that black and white.

I agree with Ron Paul that our way of life should be lead by example. There are more peaceful democratic societies that lead a much better example than us. People hate us because of what we do, because of spreading democracy. Going over to the middle east and telling their populations "Hey we are going to give you democracy by destroying your country and then rebuilding it. Have fun living in fear for an indefinite period of time while we make this place better." Or with Israel "We are going to give you democracy by shoving these people out of where they are living and give it to you, good luck! We will give you stuff!" Just start to think of what it would be like doing that here. Look at how much we hate cuba for crying out loud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

Okay, so look one step before the statements you just made. And plus you "woodwork" mentality isn't a fact last time I checked. Terrorists aren't like ants, and if they are they are ant's that are shapeshifted from humans, because what we are doing is only GROWING the ant farm. People look at these extremist groups and then look at what we do and then say "Oh these extremists are right." This is why Osama Bin Laden is more popular in Pakistan then their own "Extremist Fighting" leader. We made Osama Bin Laden who he is, why did he turn on us? Iran would have wiped out Saddam Hussien if we hadn't beefed up his military. Israel was a country that was PUT there by the west which is why they are so pissed off. Imagine how irritated we would be if china forced tibet to be in part of canda (a weak analogy I know). But I don't think you are looking at the reality of the situation.

---

Yes, those two alliances turned out to be huge mistakes.

There are people all over the Middle East who have it in them to become terrorists, people who have the potential to target innocent civilians to spew hate and make Allah horny. We have a magnet in the Middle East now that is bringing out stadium loads of such people, and we are taking them down. Of course that is not going to be a stated goal of the U.S. government. It would ruin the cause.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

Why I support Ron Paul is because I agree with him. If we just leave they will stop caring about us and turn onto their own governments. If we put our focus on security and intelligence rather than the cost of war I think it would be much more effective. We have the same goals, I just feel yours idea isn't working. I don't have some pro terrorist agenda and that is why it is difficult to discuss this because it seems so ingrained in you this "for us or against us" mentality. Either you support the war or you are a terrorist sympathizer. The world just isn't that black and white.

---

I believe in "for us or against us"? You just pulled something else straight out of your ass. Why do you keep doing that? Is it because of some kind of paranoia that comes with debate? It's getting you nowhere.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jaasum

I agree with Ron Paul that our way of life should be lead by example. There are more peaceful democratic societies that lead a much better example than us. People hate us because of what we do, because of spreading democracy. Going over to the middle east and telling their populations "Hey we are going to give you democracy by destroying your country and then rebuilding it. Have fun living in fear for an indefinite period of time while we make this place better." Or with Israel "We are going to give you democracy by shoving these people out of where they are living and give it to you, good luck! We will give you stuff!" Just start to think of what it would be like doing that here. Look at how much we hate cuba for crying out loud.

---

Democracy is a right every person has, and it is not an imposition. It is the taking away of imposition. The right government's do NOT have is to force their populations to not be free. Democracy is not just one type of government that is no different from the others while we just shove our random preference onto everybody. Democracy, which can be mixed with other principals like republicanism, is the only fair type of government. I do not agree with the common leftist belief (I'm not sure if you have it.) that governments have a right to oppress their people. I agree with that about as much as I agree with the idea that men have a right to oppress their wives and children because what happens in their houses is their business. It is the entire world's business.

Okay to your last statement, which would be that you think democracy is the right of every person. Sure I would like to see no oppressive government (our government oppresses though....there is no truly non-oppressive government) That is all good and fine. The problem is how we spread it. One thing people no is yeah, their government sucks but they have a job, they are providing for their family ect and then "America FUCK YEAH!" busts down the door and turns their country into chaos in the name of "democracy" Now these people live in fear because the terrorist groups that were kept under control by the authoritarian governments are now running rampant in the street along with our soldiers and hundreds of thousands are getting killed in the crossfire. These people don't "hate freedom" they hate the way we spread it. So who do they side with to say "we don't want the US here?" What we are doing is not spreading democracy it is occupying their countries. Taking control, forcing them to comply with us. In order for democracy to work the people truly have to want it. People do not want what we are offering because we aren't offering it the correct way. Maybe if the US truly lead by example democracy would spread a lot better, because look how wealthy and prosperous this nation is. We are looking worse, the value of our dollar is at an all time low, our national debt is out of control, we work 4 months out of the year to pay taxes, our jobs are going overseas. Why? Well look into where our money goes and where the debt comes from.