Israel-palestine

[Indecent Exposure]

hwn discussing this almost tabbo topic its hard to appear neutral, even the very terminology used make people automaticaaly create assumptions If I say the occupation of palestininian lands im an Arab loving Jew Hater If i say the reclamation of Irsraeli land, Jewish land Im a zionist bastard I want to dsicuss the legitmacy of the Zionist occupation of Paalestine Starting with the Balfour Declaration and the Partition Plan, to this point right now, with the West Bank and Gaza having been returned but accompained by countless attacks into these areas by Israeli military forces Is israel a stain of colonialsm, the only such elft, in the middle east? Or is it the rightful reclamtion of lands bleonging to the Jews? Or is it merely that Jews needed a haven of there own and this wasthe most conventinent place? Please discuss, im looking forward to this debate. Bascally is it a moral and ethical disaster, or a rightful and historical reclamation of old lands. Imran

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

Isreal is Palestine's It belongs to Palestine... but for a better look into why it has been given to the Jews, lets look at good ol Imperialistc idealogy through the original 'fat bastard' Winston Churchill (1937) as he justifies action in the mid-east on the premsie that the Jews were a racially superior people: "I do not agree that the dog in the manger has the final right to the manger, even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit, for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race, a more worldly-wise race, to put it that way, has come in and taken their place" First off : YOU FUCKING RACIST SWINE!! phew..now that that is out of my system... It does not matter in the end who the rightful land belongs to because (and especially in this case) a led (and un-thinking, uneducated, and irrationally brainwashed )people believe in their leaders ideaology. If that leader happens to be a racist hypocrite, than Israel belongs to the Jews. If the leader was a true democratic citizen and representative of the 'greatness of america' and could stop himself from interveining in other nations problems without looking at how and when they can profit from it in the long-term, then Israel belongs to Palestine and always has. It is funny how Winston Churchill did not see the stark similarities of his speech to the "higher grade races" asserting themselves in Nazi-Germany at the time....

[Conforming Non-Conformist]

IMRAN_P What is your opinion on the matter?

[Lord Toaster]

As it happens I'm just doing this subject in Geography. Israel is the place that the Jews see as their homeland. Where they originated from. After prosecution from all over the world, the UN wanted a place where Jews could be safe, and Israel seemed the most obvious place, since the Jews had a kind of half-claim there anyway. However, that was before the wars started. The palestinians were unhappy, and there were lots of wars involving quite a few of the Arab states, all of which Israel won with the help of the US. In winning these wars, Israel "claimed" more land for itself, taking much land which didn't belong to them. So now we have a situation where noone is in the right. It sucks

[Indecent Exposure]

I basiclaly agree with everything yo usaid What we have witnessed is, as people being expelled fro mthere land, murdered in there thousands and left to rot i nrefugee camps, for generations all while the world supwerowers ahve either turned a blind eye or been supportive of such behaviour. before the holocaust zionism was a mjor theme for Jews, but the greater international career did not whatosever supprot it, the holocaust created (rightly so) a lot of sympathy for the Jews, it became a apparent that without a country of there own they would be endlessly persectued But who was calling out for them to be given this country? It was European Jewry and white Americans, So really, it seems to me, if the issue was one of saftey, a part of the United States, or Europe should have been given up to these people The orthodox Jews living in PLestine before the rise of Zionism did not even agree with it, as it is entirely against JEwish Law for Jews to lord of Israel at this moment in time. There Messiah is still not here. On a religious and ethical, moral, poltiical side it is a dsigrace. For me Lord Toaster IVe got to agree with you What have the palestinians done wrong? Of all the current injsutices in the world i bleieve this one to be the greatest #And the priamry reason for the growth of fundmentalism in the Islamic World And Yes wisnton CHurchill, was a fat good for nothing fool Imran

[Neruo]

Taboo? The Israeli are assholes, that is what. Seriously, Palestine is the biggest open-aired prison ever. It is like those movies 'escape from new york/L.A.' only this isn't funny. The only taboo is that of action. Everyone is too tied up in a network of power to care about some human rights : / I just hope either Israelis will get smart themselves, or someone finds a peaceful solution...

[Indecent Exposure]

Taboo? The Israeli are assholes, that is what. Seriously, Palestine is the biggest open-aired prison ever. It is like those movies 'escape from new york/L.A.' only this isn't funny. The only taboo is that of action. Everyone is too tied up in a network of power to care about some human rights : / I just hope either Israelis will get smart themselves, or someone finds a peaceful solution... [/b] For so long a peaceful solution ahs been sought after, and nobody will listen this is why organsisations like Hamas are needed. Im not supporting all of there actions but when the doors of negotiation ahve been closed, one flies through the window of action Imran

[Geves]

i believe it's a disaster on at least 4 different parts. 1) Palestine - For constantly claiming their innocence in "terrorist" (which is simply a label and loosely used one as of late) actions. 2) Isreal - For doing the exact same thing as the Palestinians and of course claiming their innocence. 3) US of A - For giving Isreal 1.6 trillion dollars + military weaponry to use to bomb palestine into a bigger pile of rubble. 4) Former Soviet Union - For doing the exact same thing 9as the US) for multiple countries that are anti-Isreal. It's a never ending cycle, that's been going round and round since long before the cold war. What i want to know is why has so much money been pumped into this place, in order for one country or the other to occupy a piece of land (Gaza Strip) that's worth less than my/your shoes. It has no oil, it has no economical advantage what-so-ever. It's major export is dirt. but i guess it's major import is CASH!!!

[Alric]

From my understanding I believe they have little water over there, so they kill and steal it from people around them. Of course thats not really acceptable which is why they get attacked back. Its just like how the US manipulates the world to get oil supplies. In a way you might say trying to get water is more honorable, but really, murder is murder.

[bro]

Israel is currently on high alert. I have been there 4 times. Every other person on the street carries a weapon to protect themselves. The Israeli children worry, maybe today our bus will be blown up as so many have been by bombers in the name of god. Israel still is not recognized as a state by these poor poor Palestinians, even though Israel has repeatedly seeked peaceful solutions, yet the Palestinians remain stubborn, and will not have that. In the 2nd intifada beggining early in the 2000's countless suicide bombs were detonated in cafes, shops, stores, busses. They want peace...is that so? Countless ceasefires agreed upon and broken in the name of Allah, to be a martyr to destroy Israeli men, women, and children. Some peace. Yet those against Israel never seem to mention this. As these attacks are directed towards innocent Israelis, The Israeli army does its best to avoid civilian casualties, targeting suspected enemies. The israeli army also has a policy that if an order is inhumane, the soldier MUST disobey. Yes there are of course exceptions to the rule however, those who paint the Israelis as agressive killers, I am afraid you are utterly mistaken. Israel since immediately after it had been declared as a state in 1948 has been under attack by its all arab neighbors. Many a war have been fought just for this tiny peice of land that it is willing to share... It is these constant attacks, now fired from gaza and Lebanon as well if we'd like to go broader, that make Israel take a slightly defensive stance, otherwise, without a doubt it would have been destroyed. Israel agreed many times to share with the Palestinians, yet they will not have that again, they want more and more. Israel moved out of the Sanai Penisnsula for peace with Egypt, it gave the West Bank, It gave Gaza now back. What more? the little slice of land that is holy to the Jews and Palestinians, will be taken if the Jews give it all. It is quite clear Israel wants peace, suffers countless casualties, is repeatedly verbally destroyed by countless biased news stations, and does its best to avoid civilian casualties. Many a photo of victims of the Israelis has been doctored just to find the age old victims (The Jews) at fault. So the next time you use the term "occupied territories" or think of Israel as the aggresive Zionists think twice. The Israelis want a safe haven, and they are willing to share, yet many find a way to find Israel at fault once again. Lets have Israel stay, be recognized, so that 6 million more don't dies in the most god awful ways because they were rejected from nearly every single country they fled to. I personally have relatives in various places in Israel, and it is a fantastic country. Not war-ridden desert like some may think. I have had fantastic experiences there in the Jewish homeland, (Yes that's right, the only Jewish homeland for all those that hate) (and by the way for those of you who will now say the Israelis claim the whole for themselves, I'm afraid your mistaken, as the Israelis have repeatedlybeen willing to negotiate, and live side by side, only to the result of a suicide bomb) 2 more points. 1)Those of you who see the U.S as a "puppet" for Israel must realize that the Palestinians do not want peace, Their leading group is a terrorist group who refuses to recognize Israel...do they want peace? no...Does the United States condone terrorism? No, I didn't think so. So why shouldn't the U.S support this one haven of sanity in the middle east as its ally. 2) Israel in no way "steals water" It does not murder steal, and this is a complete falsification. Are you informed? Clearly not. It partly gets its water from Turkey, and part from the Kineret in israel. You haven't even bothered to pick up a book and read about it to even know one thing about the subject. Before you make false and ridiculous statements that bias thousands, learn your facts, or shut your mouth if all you have to say is that Israel is a murderous stealing killing nation....sounds like an intelligent stereortype eh? Go back to Nazi Germany.

[Geves]

You've just called the middle east an area in which israel is the only sane nation amoung them? pardon me if I take your post with a grain of salt and pinch of bias. EDIT: nice usage of the nazi card as well..that card seems to be on the top of deck everytime, I've never even seen the cards shuffled.

[bro]

You've just called the middle east an area in which israel is the only sane nation amoung them? pardon me if I take your post with a grain of salt and pinch of bias. EDIT: nice usage of the nazi card as well..that card seems to be on the top of deck everytime, I've never even seen the cards shuffled. [/b] Yes that's right, and I stand by it. And you deny, Your tactic is to deny, and to attempt to disprove. You did not provide and substance to say otherwise, Israel is for sure the only sane nation, in that region why otherwise would the U.S support it( are you going to come back with some theory that Jews have so much power and influence in the American governement?) Oh, that does so resemble the views of Nazi Germany, Yes that's right, I'm playing that card, as you say, now play yours, with a legitimate argument please . Lets discuss this together this is why your taking it as a pinch of salt. Come on MSN, lets have a discussion, I'd love to discuss my reasoning. Remember, this is a strong opinion, now you can voice yours. Why do you feel so compelled to label my veiws as something bad. It is an opinion this is what the thread is, you voice yours, don't call mine biased, because i'm sure your is as well. instead of attacking another I would like you to learn a bit of history of the Middle East before admonishing others views. We can go more in depth when you decide to post back

[Geves]

sigh... First, I don't have a card that I can play to instantly make anyone who doubts my nation/race/religion run away in fear, from the bombardment of government pampering laws that labels me as a nazi, some of which even force jail time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial (No I don't believe in Holocaust Denail, But I also don't believe in madnitory jail time for opinions/beliefs.) I don't use MSN and I lack the stomach for political discussions, especially one that can rage on for ages. I wasn't denying anything..I was merely stating that your biased views towards the rest of the middle eastern area was skewered as well as unjust. Not every middle eastern is a jew hating suicide bomber. According to you Israel shits kittens and pisses ranch dressing. You seem to think that I have some strange conspiracy theory that the U.S government backs Israel more than any other nation in that region. /sarcasam Well.... Between getting $1.6+ Billion dollars (since 1973 iirc), jet fighters, intelligence, weaponry, and a fair amount of pro-Israel vetos US: 77 vetoes. Blocked 36 resolutions criticising Israel. [/b] Source and that's from 2003, I wonder how many more they've done since then? If you want to talk about the countless number of things the US has done for Israel...You could write a book about. This argument (in the US/pro-israel regard) is so redundant, I'm not even going to waste my finger strength. As for the amount of influence jews have in the US...I can't answer that question. AIPAC seems to have a HUGE amount of pull. Their amount of influence can be seen from not only having the household name..but also by being backed by THE ENTIRE PRESIDENTS CABINET.

[Universal Mind]

I don't see Jews and Arabs as teams and think in terms of "They had the land then, and these have it now, but it is really theirs, blah blah blah." Every person is an individual, and no person has land rights just because of their race or religion. The place should be a democracy where everybody is allowed to live (until they screw up by blowing up a nursery or something) and practice their religion. Democracy is a right and not an imposition. Democracy is the way, and anybody who uses violence in an attempt to end democracy does not deserve to live. The Israeli children worry, maybe today our bus will be blown up as so many have been by bombers in the name of god. [/b] My blood boils every time I hear about that. Those bombings are so terrible and so pointless. Much to my amazement, a lot of people who pride themselves on being "anti-war" actually support Palestinian bombings of Israeli citizens. Those bombings accomplish NOTHING but getting innocent people killed and making "martyrs" out of despiccably evil people. I would love to know if anybody here supports Palestinian bombings in Israel.

[Geves]

Is that last phrase directed towards me Universal? I agree Universal...They are pointless crimes of retardation. The worst part is that they carry them out in the name of their god, and according to their religion. Their god is the same as the christian god, which makes it the same as god as the jewish god. Which makes it ironic/tragic. Fantatics are the worst part of this world, regardless of which faith they follow.

[Neruo]

I think the Palestinian bombers are doing horrible and pointless actions. But I do understand why. Seriously, Israel is oppressing them. There are cities where there is a curfew for Years now. Everywhere they have road-blocks and check-points. Israel keeps pushing their borders, and if they wanted peace, they wouldn't constantly have pointless vengeful retaliations. Also, America gives so much money, it is like 600$ per Israeli citizen per year. I am not sure or those numbers include the millions of cluster-bombs, tanks and uranium-enriched bullets America gives Israel to 'make peace'. Israel is one of the sickest nations on the world. There is nothing left of the good idea of a Zion, there is just imperialism, hate, military superiority and them thinking they have the right to do whatever they want. That doesn't go well with the brainwashing going on in Palestine. People in Palestine are really getting raped by Israel, for Years and Years they are getting bombed and oppressed. In a way, they are just fighting for freedom, in another way, they are fighting because they are brainwashed by the religion in their country and people that abuse it. However, it you take away all the grief, poverty and destruction in Palestine I think there will be less desire to blow oneself up. The stronger nation has the responsibility. If they would give some of that money they get from America to Palestine to be used for infrastructure, schools, hospitals and farms, maybe less people would blow themselves up out of desperation, making people even more weak to religious indoctrination.

[bro]

I think the Palestinian bombers are doing horrible and pointless actions. But I do understand why. Seriously, Israel is oppressing them. There are cities where there is a curfew for Years now. Everywhere they have road-blocks and check-points. Israel keeps pushing their borders, and if they wanted peace, they wouldn't constantly have pointless vengeful retaliations. Also, America gives so much money, it is like 600$ per Israeli citizen per year. I am not sure or those numbers include the millions of cluster-bombs, tanks and uranium-enriched bullets America gives Israel to 'make peace'. Israel is one of the sickest nations on the world. There is nothing left of the good idea of a Zion, there is just imperialism, hate, military superiority and them thinking they have the right to do whatever they want. That doesn't go well with the brainwashing going on in Palestine. People in Palestine are really getting raped by Israel, for Years and Years they are getting bombed and oppressed. In a way, they are just fighting for freedom, in another way, they are fighting because they are brainwashed by the religion in their country and people that abuse it. However, it you take away all the grief, poverty and destruction in Palestine I think there will be less desire to blow oneself up. The stronger nation has the responsibility. If they would give some of that money they get from (America to Palestine to be used for infrastructure, schools, hospitals and farms, maybe less people would (blow themselves up out of desperation, making people even more weak to religious indoctrination. [/b] In response: America only gives money to Israel because Israel is its ally. Israel has wanted peace with the Palestinians for many years now and agreed to it. Yet the TERRORISM LED PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT KNOWN AS HAMAS says they do not recognize Israel in any regard. They have already made their point, their won't be any 2 state solution. You say the Palestinians are getting bombed and oppressed by Israel, which I will admit, to some extent is true, yet with MISSILES BEING FIRED constantly from Gaza raining down on ISRAELI INNOCENT CIVILIANS WITH THE INTENTION OF KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS and PALESTINIAN SUICIDE BOMBERS, why shouldn't Israel take a strong, aggressive stance, build roadblacks JUST TO PROTECT ITS VERY OWN CITIZENS FROM BEING BLOWN TO BITS. Now I'm not saying I agree with everything Israel does, yet when it fires rockets into Gaza, (Now given up by Israel in an attempt of peace with the Palestinians, and now rockets are being fired more than ever toward Israel) they are directed towards TERRORISTS, not with the intention of Killing innocent people like the Palestinian rockets. Yes of course there will be the odd innocent casualty, probably alot, but that is unavoidable with any type of defense of ones country. You seem to think that money Israel gives to the Palestinians will go to these good causes, and of course it would be good if it did, yet WHY SHOULD ISRAEL SUPPORT the SELF PROCLAIMED TERRORIST LED government of the PALESTINIANS, Hamas. Israel should not support the Palestinians because the money they give will go directly towards more missiles, and more suicide bombs. When Israel fires into Gaza it is in an intention to kill terrorists remember, the FANATICS, now why are the Palestininians firing into Israel? You might say in retaliation, why shouldn't they? Yet, Israel fires either to kill terrorists, or after a missile firing from Gaza to attempt to kill those responsible, NOT to kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS, like so many aimless Palestinian rockets have,(with the intention of doing so) regardless of whether they were in response to a Terrorist killing in Gaza. You may bring up the point that "Why shouldn't the Palestinians fire into Israel, after Israel fired in"? The answer is, because Israel is trying to defend itself. If there was no threat to Israel (The self-proclaimed Terrorist Palestinian government in charge), known as Hamas, Israel would not have to have bombard Gaza with the hope of killing terrorists, and unfortunately killing some inncoent civilians. This is what you said "There is nothing left of the good idea of a Zion, there is just imperialism, hate, military superiority and them thinking they have the right to do whatever they want. That doesn't go well with the brainwashing going on in Palestine." As I say in response, what you see as imperialism is an attempt to defend itself and its INNOCENT CIVILIANS, in a very storng fashion against the TERRORIST LEAD HAMS PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT. Why should Israel take away the roadblcoks if the Palestinians condone terrorism? Of course there will be more suicide bombings, now THE DEFINITION OF THE PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT says there will be more bombings. If They want the roadblocks lifted, they must not do this, and must change their terrorist priorities to those of peace. Let me be clear though, I think Israel has made some terrible decisions this year regarding its military policy, I see why the world sees its campaign and invasion into Lebanon was opressing. I do beleive there were many unnecessary bombings. Yet this was ONLY TO DISABLE the ABILITY FOR HEZBOLLAH to fire rockets at INNOCENT ISRAELI CIVILIANS. I am not saying Israel is innocent, yet I am saying any Civilians it may have killed, was not intentional, it was trying to disable the infrastructure of Lebanon, to prevent these missile firings (with unfortunate casualties). Another point that may be worthy of mentioning is that the missiles fired from Lebanon, a good number of them were provided by IRAN THROUGH SYRIA, and again directed to kill INNOCENT ISRAELI CIVILIANS. Now you may see Israel as a trigger-happy agressive nation, yet it is only trying to defend its people, people say Israel wants a war with Iran and starts wars throughout the region, this is false, ISRAEL ONLY DOES WHAT IS NECESSARY TO PROTECT ITS COUNTRY. I will reitterate my main points -The SELF- PROCLAIMED TERRORIST LED PALESTINIAN GOVERNMENT, Hamas does not recognize Israel, and supports terrorism toward it (keep in mind Israel is willing to share, and live in peace with the Palestinians, it is not hogging the land,(It gave up Gaza risking everything for peace and now is still under bombardment of Palestinian rockets aimed at INNOCENT CIVILIANS) if the Palestinians would agree to recognize Israel and agree to a 2 state solution, and to halt the suicide bombings, as well as the missile firings with the INTENTION OF KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS) thus killing the option of a 2 state solution, and unfortunately peace. -The cruel wall and road blocks some people see all over Israel Is again designed to protect INNOCENT ISRAELIS, it is not designed to interupt the lives of the Palestinians, although unfortunately it (and they) do. Which is better, catching terrorists attempting to kill innocent civilians at roadblocks? or an inconvenience and a significant interuption in the lives of the Palestinians. -Israel's missile bombardments although not perfect, (far from it) are done with the intention of killing terrorists, NOT INNOCENT CIVILIANS like the Palestinian bombardment and missiles. Israel is acting in its defense, of its civilians being killed by suicide bombers and missiles aimed at INNOCENT ISRAELI CIVILIANS (with unfrotunately alot of casualties), (which is also the reason for the numerous roadblocks.) -Why should America not support Israel and not the Palestinians when the Palestinians elected TERRORIST LEAD GOVERNMENT, and America is clearly against terrorism. America recognizes that Israel as a nation (sharing its morals) has to sustain and defend itself even if it means some innocent deaths on the Palestinian side. (The TERRORIST SIDE). -Finally, You think Israel should give money for good causes to the Palestinians, yet that money again will go directly to the TERRORIST LED GOVERNMENT and DIRECTLY TO INNOCENT ISRAELIS BEING KILLED INTENTIONALLY. How could Israel allow this? It cannot, although idealy it would be wonderful if it could help improve the squalor in Gaza, yet it is worrying about its own defense. Please, before you call Israel a sick, imperialist nation, think about its motives as I discussed above, it certainly is not black and white I'm sorry If I was sarcastic in my last post I did not intend to do so.

[King and God]

They took it through force, and the victor should rightfully be able to keep the land if wanting to.

[dodobird]

Well here is my subjective interpretation of this. This is a very complicated situation. If you believe that one side is the right or wrong, than you are surly mistaken. I will summarize the story from the beginning in a very concise way, covering most major points: 1500 B.C: Joshua leads the Israelites back to the land of Canaan, and they take over forcibly. 587/586 B.C: Southern Kingdom (Judah) and First Temple destroyed by the Babylonians, and they exile 10 out of the 12 tribes The year 70: Destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple by the Romans ( after Jewish revolts against the Roman occupation) After that the Jews were sent to exile. Then came 2 thousand years which had some good times for the Jews ( under Muslim rule ) and times of persecution ( under Christian rule ) in the various countries where they lived after the exile. During the 19th century the Jews decided they had enough of the persecution and instead of waiting for the Messiah to save them they decided to return to their homeland, which was partly unoccupied, mostly barren, and under Turkish rule. This is Zionist movement. So a small amount of Jews started to immigrate to Palestine. They came to live in unoccupied lands, or they bought lands from the Arabs and built villages and small towns. 1917 During the Russian Revolution about 200,000 Jews were killed by the Russians. 1917 Surrender of Ottoman forces in Jerusalem to Allied Forces under General Sir Edmund Allenby. 1921 The number of Jews in Israel increases, and the Arabs start to riot in Jaffa and other cities. 1933 Germany begins anti-Jewish boycott. After that Jews started to escape from Germany, resulting in more immigrants to Palestine. The Arabs start to feel that the Jews will end up ruling the country, and more there are more riots in Jaffa and Jerusalem to protest British "pro-Zionist" policies. 1936-1939 Anti-Jewish riots instigated by Arab militants. 1937 The Peel Commission recommends the partition of Palestine between Jews and Arabs. 1939 Jewish immigration severely limited by British White Paper. After that more Jews immigrated illegally. Now I'll begin to describe the events in short: During world War II 6 millions Jews were killed by the Nazis. After the war more Jews immigrated to Palestine. The Arabic Palestinians, and the Arabic nations were getting more and more militant, seeing the land is getting out of their hands. At 1948 the state of Israel was declared and the Arabic nations immediately invaded it. Israel won the war and also managed to somewhat increase it's territory. Some Palestinians escaped from their homes because of fear of a Jewish retaliation, and very few were deported from their homes. After the war Israel did not let them return, and they became refugees. Now I'm skipping some wars and events to 1967. At this year Egypt, Syria and Jordan invaded Israel. During the war Israel took the Sinai and the Gaza strip from Egypt, East Jerusalem and the West Bank from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. There was another war with Egypt and Syria at 1973, and at 1977 Israel made peace with Egypt, returning Sinai. At first Israel was quite happy to keep the Gaza strip and West Bank. At last Israel had a tactical breadth, and could feel safe in this hostile environment. But the Palestinians living in the areas started to want to have independence and have their own Palestinian state, and they began to revolt. Israel tried to quench the Palestinian ambitions, which resulted with a war with Lebanon ( because it was home to the Palestinian liberation organization, the PLO ) At 1987 the Intifada start as a major Palestinian revolt and Israel tried to repress the revolts. The views of the Israelis were divided to about 50-50. Half of the Israelis ( The Israeli left ) wanted to give the Palestinians their land and let them have their own state ( or alternately give the west bank to Jordan in return for a peace treaty with Jordan ). The other half was more militant (The Israeli Right ) They didn't want to give the west-bank to the Palestinians for different reasons: religious/national reasons ( the west bank being part of the historical Israel ), and Strategical reasons: to help protect Israel from invasions from the Arabic nations. At 1992 the Left won the elections. the Oslo treaty was signed as a beginning to a peace treaty between Israel and the Palestinians. The Palestinians were given an autonomy as a temporary solution, and a permanent solution was planed to be signed at 1999. The Islamic fundamentalist group Hamas was unhappy with any treaty to be signed by Israel, and started to do terror attacks using suicide bombers against Israeli civilians. This has made the Israeli Right stronger, resulted in the assassination of the Israeli prime minister Isaac Rabin by Right wing extremist, and then the Israeli Right rose again to power (with PM Netanyahu ) and slowed down the peace process ( but even Netanyahu continued the peace process and got Israel out of Chevron ). Netanyahu was a failure and the Left wing PM Barak replaced him, and accelerated the peace process. Barak took Israel out of southern Lebanon, and started the negotiations for a permanent peace treaty with the Palestinians. These negotiations were not very successful, Barak and Arafat could not reach an agreement about some of the issues. What Arafat did then, instead of continuing negotiating and using diplomatic methods, Arafat started a war: the second Intifada, which was much more violent than the first one because this time the Palestinians had tens of thousands of guns( that Israel has given them ) and they started to use the guns against Israel. Because of this war PM Barak lost the elections and the Right Wing Sharon replaced him. Sharon decided to halt the peace process until the Palestinians stop the war, and most Israelis supported him. After Arafat's death, the Palestinian Fatah party decided to stop the war, but the Hamas continued to make terror acts. Sharon decided to pull Israel out of the Gaza strip, including the complete evacuation of all the Israeli settlements around Gaza. Sharon decided to do it, because it became apparent that the Palestinians do not want to risk a civil war, and therefor they will not eradicate the Hamas, and because of this they will not fight the terror of Hamas, and Israel will not agree to negotiate with the Palestinians while the Palestinians do nothing to stop the terrorism, so Sharon figured the only way to get Israel out of Gaza and the west bank is just to do it without any negotiations ( At about that time Sharon views changed to the Left, and he openly agreed upon a two state solution ). After that the Palestinians stupidly elected the Hamas for their government at the last election. The Hamas is a fanatic Islamic fundamentalist organization that does not want to make peace with Israel. They want to destroy Israel and built Palestine on its ruins. This is both their official view, and it is reflected by their actual action. The Hamas does nothing to stop the terror attacks of the other militant groups such as the Islamic Jihad ( which include missile attacks at the southern cities of Israel ), and it performs attacks of it's own. Israel has no choice but to defend it self from the Hamas terror. The new PM Olmert want to continue the left policy of Sharon and he support the two states solution. But the Hamas does not want two states. The Hamas wants one Palestinian state, and no Israel. Therefor Israel is patiently waiting until the Palestinians decide to go back to the road of peace which they left when they chose the Hamas for government. When that happen Israel will give the Palestinian their long awaited independent state ( if the Israel Left will still be in power ). There are other issues that I did not cover, such as the refugee issue, the settlements issue, and the issue of the holy places in Jerusalem, but the main thing is that since 1992 Israel wants to make peace with the Palestinians and give them the West Bank and the Gaza strip as their independent state. Israel is also willing to give up parts of Jerusalem and let some of the refugees back into Israel, and give compensations to the refugees. If the Palestinians do not support terror, then Israel will not have to fight the terrorists, and then a a permanent peace treaty can be signed.

[Geves]

They took it through force, and the victor should rightfully be able to keep the land if wanting to. [/b] Only a swede would say such a retarded thing. Neutral..HA! I know lets give your land back to nazi germany, since they earned it.

[bro]

Dodobird pretty much summed it up, thanks, perhaps we can talk over MSN?

[King and God]

Only a swede would say such a retarded thing. Neutral..HA! I know lets give your land back to nazi germany, since they earned it. [/b] What a pathetic attempt to insult me. The Swedish nation's actions are not mine, and I'm by no means nationalistic, so you can bash Sweden how much you like without me caring. If you want to insult me, use something that actually has to do with me. And Nazi Germany would have earned Sweden if they had conquered it, but they did not. Read up facts before making ignorant statements.

[Indecent Exposure]

It can be broken down into a serious of points IT was European Jewry and Western leaders calling fro a state of Israel Neither Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs or Jews residing in palestine wanted the state of israel (as we know ti against their religion) So surely we shiould ahve sliced up a european or western country? ALso Universal, I agree they are sick and dsigusitng thingts to do, but desperate people trun to desperate things, these people ahve no ther way to turn the yolk of opression or the fires of what they belive to be matrydom. Imran

[Geves]

I wasn't really trying to insult YOU. I was just pointing out that the Nazi's had your nation occupied, I don't really see how that's different from conquered. That and your philosophy towards the spoils of war are a bit tainted. The fact that you happen to come from a nuetral nation and saying such things was just icing on the cake and someone had to point it out. Please don't take it as a personal insult. It wasn't really intended in that way.

[dodobird]

IT was European Jewry and Western leaders calling fro a state of Israel Neither Muslim Arabs, Christian Arabs or Jews residing in palestine wanted the state of israel (as we know ti against their religion) So surely we shiould ahve sliced up a european or western country? [/b] You ignore some points: Palestine was not an independent state ( part of the Ottoman empire ), it was mostly empty, and mostly barren. Half of the land was desert and swamps. BUT the main point is that now it's irrelevant if it was Right or Wrong to for the Jews to immigrate to this land, instead of to some other place. What IS relevant is that it is possible to make peace between the Jews and the Arabs ( and there are already peace treaties between Israel and Egypt and Jordan ) All that is needed to complete a standing, permanent peace treaty between the Jews and Palestinians is that the Palestinians go back to the negotiating table, and for this the Hamas government must be either replaced by a Fatah government, or it must stop its terrorist ways. ALso Universal, I agree they are sick and dsigusitng thingts to do, but desperate people trun to desperate things, these people ahve no ther way to turn [/b] They do have a way to turn. The Palestinian population just want to live in peace, they don't want endless war with Israel. Many Palestinians support the Fatah which condones negotiations for peace with Israel. The Hamas is not a group of desperate Palestinians, just their suicide volunteers are desperate. They find ways make people volunteer as a suicide bomber: People that were suspected for cooperation with Israel and want to clear the name of their family, people who lost relatives in the war and just want mindless revenge, they even sent small children as suicide bombs! The Hamas is a political movement using the struggle with Israel to promote them politically. They are also a religious fundamentalist movement. They are not the true representatives of the Palestinian people who are mostly secular and have made just one mistake of electing them for the last elections. It happens, sometimes people elect stupidly a group that just ruins their own cause, and this is exactly this case. So don't support the Hamas because then you are only causing damage to the Palestinian cause.