Thread: Skeptics, watch this and let me know what you think

Hehe how is your location Illinois/Australia??

Anyway I watched the first minute or so (too tired to watch the whole thing) and this isn't something I consider paranormal. Sooo... perhaps I shouldn't reply to this thread.

I used to live in Australia. Then for a while I was living back and fourth between there and Chicago. Now I'm just in Chicago, so I suppose I should change that. And damnit, I'm pretty drunk drunk. Could an admin/mod please move this to the extended discussion thread? I completely didn't mean to post it here.

You don't consider it paranormal, but most skeptics would. But I'm glad you don't.


THANKS MOD/ADMIN (probably O) for moving this.

I often wonder what the words "paranormal" and "supernatural" are supposed to mean. Paranormal meaning outside of the normal? Because we have a word for that already. Strange. What about supernatural? Something outside of nature? How can something be outside of nature? If it's a facet of our reality, it's a part of nature. Really, they're just buzz words used as euphemisms for "magical".

PS

I didn't watch the video

Excellent vid. Very interesting.

I think that either that guy is a lone magician like David Copperfield or Doug Henning or the other people involved in that film worked together with him as a trick photography magician team, which I think is the case with Chriss Angel. I have also seen Luke Skywalker use the force to blow up the Death Star on video, so that video is not enough to convince me. That guy could have won a million dollars by demonstrating his abilities under strict lab conditions, and that money has not been won to this day, which speaks libraries of volumes. My skepticism was raised even more at the end when the guy all of a sudden very conveniently claimed that he was forbidden to repeat the stuff for others, which takes away all possibilities of public challenges. If it was a huge taboo for him to ever show his abilities to the public, wouldn't he have known that before the filming started? Why did he do it any way and then suddenly say he can't show his abilities any more? He very conveniently made a video and closed the door on challenges to the video. It smells like a documentary scam to me.

That is really interesting Rainman, thank you for sharing that with us.

You're welcome Jeff.

Universal, actually that's a good point.

hah.

Chris Angel is half bullshit, half liar. I'll explain. Clearly the illusions he does are completely staged/edited. But the mind reading stuff, and anything dealing with that he does is authentic. Asking to think of a number, and he gets it on the first try. Or like when he has someone put a very sharp knife sticking up under one of 5 cups and he slams his hand on all of them but the one with the knife under it.

The illusions are the bullshit, the manner in which he does his mind reading tricks are lies. People believe he's a psychic, when really he's just using psychological tactics.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

My skepticism was raised even more at the end when the guy all of a sudden very conveniently claimed that he was forbidden to repeat the stuff for others, which takes away all possibilities of public challenges. If it was a huge taboo for him to ever show his abilities to the public, wouldn't he have known that before the filming started? Why did he do it any way and then suddenly say he can't show his abilities any more? He very conveniently made a video and closed the door on challenges to the video. It smells like a documentary scam to me.

If you listen to it though he does explain that he was on a 2 year meditaional journey in which he saw a shift in the future by where powers such as these are becoming more obscure and therefore he contacted this guy to remind us of what is possible. And by doing this went too far according to his dead 'master'

I am not saying either way if this is fake or what, I don't know - I see stuff like this and think why would some little dude out there want to try con the world? Or is it the American's going out there trying to make a fake and paying some random to help them?

I don't know I am on the wall with this and would love to see something like this first hand. And as for the electric shocks, could that not be static? I am always shocking people, not on purpose, because for some reason I have a lot of static.

Anyway an interesting video and I enjoyed watching it, look forward to reading more replies.

I agree with Adam. I really don't know what's going on and I'd like to see things like this myself and then decide. But, yeah... Why would he want to con the world?

No, it could not be static. Static is not ht continuos

This doesn't look paranormal to me.

It looks like a combination of mental illusionism and magic tricks. I agree with Universal Mind on this one.

If you see Criss Angel floating between rooftops or walking on water, nobody grounded in reality actually believes that it's paranormal. It's just fun to watch. Look for magic tricks on youtube by all kinds of magicians. Look for mental magic by Derren Brown. If you don't know how it works, it's impressive. But if you're skeptic or if you have some knowledge in the field of magic, you wouldn't come to think that any of that is paranormal/unexplainable. For example: Mind Punch

And now you show me exactly the same, except that the performer is an old Asian and names his magical power CHI instead of PSI. It's just a show effect. You need to do better than that to impress... Next thing I expected to see in that video was him sawing a virgin in half... I mean... so he can defy the laws of physics, but it just so comes that his super secret sect doesn't allow him to do it under scientific conditions. What a coincidence.

It's just a bunch of neat tricks. Nice to see, but no scientific relevance... If you don't know how this works, it doesn't mean that it's paranormal: http://youtube.com/watch?v=hm5ifer9zRw
It's still fun to see.

As for the meditation, yes, I believe him and I believe that not all of that was staged. You can develop very intense psychological powers by meditating. That doesn't mean it's paranormal though. Derren Brown practices meditation and hypnosis... that doesn't mean he uses CHI. He just knows how psychological manipulation works.

How paranormal.

Not.

Just because the guy has some tendency to give off static electricity, doesn't mean he has paranormal powers. Gosh, even I can give off static electricity if I wanted, I just need to wear fluffy shoes and shuffle over a fluffy tapestry.

This guy just has some insane human tendency to give off electricity. I saw this Chinese dude that actually attacked metal: he could let an iron (the clothes-ironing kind) just 'stick' to his tummy.

So, basically, some dude found some way to create static electricity in his body. There are also people that, through meditation, can survive insane cold without dropping a single degree in body heat. Really awesome and special, but all completely physically explainable.

So, I kind of laughed when they 'measured' it wasn't electricity, but then the guy lighted an LED. If something powers an LED, it would show up on a volt-meter, that's just a fact. For the LED to light, electrons have to move through it. Moving electrons = electricity, basically.

All I see is another Chinese dude that has mastered his body and his mind in an extraordinary way. Nothing supernatural. (you even see western martial-artists pushing chop-sticks through wood.)

Oh. Well I guess that's good I suppose. I guess I figured people would consider this paranormal. Which of course leads to the question, how can you explain someone creating and controlling the flow of an electrical current with just their body? And if he really did do it, then it would be possible to set something on fire because of the heat.

Look for mental magic by Derren Brown

Derren Brown is not a magician of any kind, nor is anything he does "magic". Nor does he claim to be. In fact, I'm pretty sure he explains everything he does in the beginning of every episode.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Oh. Well I guess that's good I suppose. I guess I figured people would consider this paranormal. Which of course leads to the question, how can you explain someone creating and controlling the flow of an electrical current with just their body? And if he really did do it, then it would be possible to set something on fire because of the heat.

The thing is: "skeptics" (emphasis on the quotations) will never find the possibility in someone actually doing something 'paranormal', unless it's tested a million times or more (and then, many of them will still default on the assumption that there is "still some unknown, physical explanation that they just haven't found yet). There is absolutely nothing you can show them, in any one (or two or seven or fourty-five) clips that will convince them that there is even a chance that anything shown in a video is authentic, because it's possible to explain away anything on film as a trick, and they will always take that route because, in a situation where it's impossible to prove something either way (like watching a video) many figure that it's better to assume on the side of the "scientifically accepted" position, such as the guy in the youtube comment that goes so far as to tell (assume) exactly which chemicals the guy used to make the fire.

While no one with half a brain can dismiss the explanations (read as: assumptions) of how the tricks were done, I find it a fallacy - and not the least bit scientific - to immediately conclude that something is bogus without having nothing more than a video to go on (just as much as I find it a fallacy to believe that such a thing is authentic, without having nothing more than a video to go on).

Combo magic/lies.

Originally Posted by Rainman

But the mind reading stuff, and anything dealing with that he does is authentic.

Uhmm, no. There have been many magicians that have made their living in the field of "mentalism". You know the difference between a magician/mentalist and some one with "magical powers"? I'll tell you: The magician is honest about the fact that he/she is doing illusions/tricks and the one with "real" powers is lying to you.

Asking to think of a number, and he gets it on the first try.

There are literally scores of magic books dealing with ways to accomplish that very same type of trick. There's nothing at all magical about it, other than it has the power to fool people. Clever: yes. Supernatural: no.

Or like when he has someone put a very sharp knife sticking up under one of 5 cups and he slams his hand on all of them but the one with the knife under it.

Again, there are a number of ways to accomplish that very same trick. There's nothing magical about it except for its ability to deceive the spectator.

People believe he's a psychic, when really he's just using psychological tactics.

Exactly, and because he doesn't present himself as a "magician". The way some one presents themselves goes a long way to fooling the gullible if that is indeed their intention. Ever hear of "psychic healers"? How about "mediums", "faith healers", "psychic surgeons", "voodoo witch doctors"? The list goes on ad nauseum. Yet, they are all forms of magic tricks and mind games under the guise of being authentic.

Originally Posted by Rainman

Oh. Well I guess that's good I suppose. I guess I figured people would consider this paranormal.

Yeah, have you ever read the threads at DV?

Which of course leads to the question, how can you explain someone creating and controlling the flow of an electrical current with just their body?

There's a fallacy here of people trying to attribute magical forces to things that have been accomplished by countless magicians. Don't assume that - just because he didn't expose the gimmick - that you see all there is to see in the video.

And if he really did do it, then it would be possible to set something on fire because of the heat.

Oh, and have I mentioned the fact that there is also volumes of books dedicated solely to fire magic? And by "magic", I mean illusions, tricks, magicians' secrets.

Derren Brown is not a magician of any kind, nor is anything he does "magic". Nor does he claim to be. In fact, I'm pretty sure he explains everything he does in the beginning of every episode.

Right, try again:

Originally Posted by Google search

Derren Brown's combination of psychological illusion, perceptual manipulation and persuasive technique has pioneered a new form of magical entertainment...

The chopstick-thru-table illusion is not a new one. There's a good reason why the trick is only done from the back side: so that the spectator cannot see the simple method used. Try this, drill a Formica surface from the back side. Now make sure to only drill up to the underside of the Formica. Are you with me? Good. Now, stick a chopstick in that hole and give it a good whack from the end. Guess what happens? The Formica breaks out!!! Oh-my-fuckin'-God!!! That's simply fucking amazing as all fuckin' get out!!! Or, it would be if you didn't know the secret and that set-up was required. It's far from a spontaneous, do-anywhere trick.

Remember, a good magician never reveals his secrets. And also remember that magicians - and magical secrets that are traded and sold - can be extremely cunning and deceptive. It's what they do; they spend lifetimes thinking up ways to deceive. Believe me, I was a magician and I was close friends with many people who would blow your fucking mind. And, if they were as unscrupulous as some of the people out there - who do the same things but try to make people think they have some sort of supernatural powers - then they would easily convince people that they, too, have supernatural powers.

And in fact (just to make a point) I, myself have done magic tricks for idiots before who have been convinced (at least temporarily) that I had powers. Not because I said I did but, because they were dumb enough to draw nonsensical conclusions based on nothing more than the fact that they were fooled by what they saw. And when that happened (at least twice that I can remember) I was in no way trying to make anyone think I had magical powers. Nor was I lying or misrepresenting myself. And I only WISH I could say I'm joking about that.

So, trust me, it's not as hard to fool people as you might want to believe. Nope, not at all.

This concludes today's lesson in reason.

Check this out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S6tJpUxvOU

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Check this out... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S6tJpUxvOU

Which only proves my point that people can easily be fooled by things that would seem impossible to fake. About a year and a half after that was done, the secret was exposed and the entire magic community had a field day because they knew one of Copperfield's biggest secrets to date (at the time).

What's even more telling is the fact that - unless you were sitting on that little set of bleachers on that little stage - you could plainly see that nothing at all happened to the Statue of Liberty. It never moved, it was never veiled, nothing. It was only an illusion and it only worked from that given perspective. Of course, the part about the cameras was the easy part.

And indeed, even many of those there in person were able to detect what was going on. Remember, it was really a trick performed for the TV audience. Those there in person were only there to lend credibility to the whole thing.

Disclaimer: the following post is in regard only to Derren Brown and slightly Chris Angel.

Uhmm, no. There have been many magicians that have made their living in the field of "mentalism". You know the difference between a magician/mentalist and some one with "magical powers"? I'll tell you: The magician is honest about the fact that he/she is doing illusions/tricks and the one with "real" powers is lying to you.

Ok. As you're one of the more intuitive members of this forum, it's damn near pathetic that I have to spell this out for you.

You will note that in NONE of my posts in this thread did I claim Derren Brown or Chris Angel to be "magic" or "psychic" or in any other definition "supernatural". I said the exact words "mind reading" and "authentic".

In which case I am still right. Derren Brown and (to a much weaker extent) Chris Angel both do the same thing- read minds using a combination of psychological techniques including neural-linguistic programming, advanced language patterns, and covert hypnosis to appear to be "psychic".

Me-People believe he's a psychic, when really he's just using psychological tactics.

Gh- Exactly, and because he doesn't present himself as a "magician". The way some one presents themselves goes a long way to fooling the gullible if that is indeed their intention. Ever hear of "psychic healers"? How about "mediums", "faith healers", "psychic surgeons", "voodoo witch doctors"? The list goes on ad nauseum. Yet, they are all forms of magic tricks and mind games under the guise of being authentic.

Right, try again:

No, actually I'm right. Do you know anything about conversational hypnotism? Neural-linguistic programming? Advanced language patterns? Social engineering? Didn't think so. Thanks. Ever actually...watched..the Derren Brown shows? In several episodes, he clearly explains how he does his tricks of the mind. It's not slight of hand, or actors, or camera tricks. It's not anything except very advanced forms of psychology. I study these forms of psychology, and am quite capable of doing many of the feats that Derren Brown does. And really, anyone can learn what he does. It is nothing more than advanced psychology.

I'll save you the step of failing to prove that wrong for a second time by giving you a link to a clip of one of Derren Brown's psychological manipulations. In this particular clip, he uses mostly NLP and embedded commands (advanced language patterns) to make this guy think something, while simultaneously making him forget someting he was originally thinking, and on top of it all, the guy will think he came up with the idea on his own, and always had it.

If you watch the whole thing, at the end, Derren explains how he did the trick. He doesn't explain it all, or even close to all of how it worked, but I would be glad to do so in the (likely) event that you feel the need to be a dick again.

As for the video I posted, you may notice that I acknowledged that everyone who said the exact same thing as you (except...about two days earlier) and admitted they were probably right, and that they had good points. (Universal Mind, Neruo). Thanks.

This concludes todays lesson in "shut the fuck up and never speak again" (STFUANSA 101.)

^^ the one that says no flaming is the one being an asshole. good job stupid ass.

For someone whose been here a whole 14 days, you sure know a lot about the on-goings of the forum, and you sure have had a lot of useful and meaningful posts... (that's a common occurrence called sarcasm)

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

I know you usually debate ideas and don't just complain, but I was talking about your one earlier post and people in general. I think satire should be handled by countering it, either with straight argument or satire in return. Some people look at satire and see nothing but sarcasm. If the sarcasm is mixed in with a good argument, I notice mainly the argument, and that is what I am trying to encourage. Satire can be great for illustrating a point. So many people here look at satire and have nothing to say about it but that it is mean spirited. I think people should look at it as a challenge and take it on.

Originally Posted by Rainman

And by the way, I understand now what you were saying now about satire. I just try not to bash and disrespect others just because they disagree with me. I understand what you meant. Maybe I should give up on respect on here.

Sorry that your joke fell through.

Maybe you should re-think todays earlier lesson...

Originally Posted by Rainman

This concludes todays lesson in "shut the fuck up and never speak again" (STFUANSA 101.)

Rainman, you seem to think there's only one kind of performance magic: the kind where things are made to appear and disappear. But you're wrong. Many of the very same techniques used by Derren Brown are also magicians' techniques. The effect may not be the same but the underlying principals are. Any they are much along the lines of (especially) "mentalism". But all forms of performance magic have the same foundation.

Originally Posted by Rainman

In which case I am still right. Derren Brown and (to a much weaker extent) Chris Angel both do the same thing- read minds using a combination of psychological techniques including neural-linguistic programming, advanced language patterns, and covert hypnosis to appear to be "psychic".

Those same kinds of psychological tricks are used in magic all the time.

No, actually I'm right. Do you know anything about conversational hypnotism? Neural-linguistic programming? Advanced language patterns? Social engineering? Didn't think so. Thanks. Ever actually...watched..the Derren Brown shows?

Yes. Yes I have. And no. No, you're wrong if you're still going to try to say that what he does has nothing to do with trickery or magic techniques. There's more to magic than the physical props.

In several episodes, he clearly explains how he does his tricks of the mind. It's not slight of hand, or actors, or camera tricks.

You obviously don't understand what magic is.

It's not anything except very advanced forms of psychology.

And what the hell do you think magic is? What the hell do you think all forms of deception are? Just because what Derren Brown does doesn't fit the popular understanding of what magic is doesn't make me wrong.

I study these forms of psychology, and am quite capable of doing many of the feats that Derren Brown does. And really, anyone can learn what he does. It is nothing more than advanced psychology.

I'm very proud of you. No really, I am. And I stand by my argument.

I'll save you the step of failing to prove that wrong for a second time by giving you a link to a clip of one of Derren Brown's psychological manipulations. In this particular clip, he uses mostly NLP and embedded commands (advanced language patterns) to make this guy think something, while simultaneously making him forget someting he was originally thinking, and on top of it all, the guy will think he came up with the idea on his own, and always had it.

Ah, the classic "force". Brilliant. But I fail to see the black and white distinction that you believe is there.

but I would be glad to do so in the (likely) event that you feel the need to be a dick again.

Yeah, back at'cha.

This concludes todays lesson in "shut the fuck up and never speak again" (STFUANSA 101.)

Did I mention that you're wrong?

I'm not saying that he's a "magician". I'm saying he's actually doing the same things magicians do.

And this concludes today's lesson.

which one of these do you consider to be the "real" definition of magic?

I don't understand your original reply to my comments on Derren Brown then. I never claimed what he was doing to be anything other than what he is doing...NLP and social engineering. Maybe covert/conversational hypnotism.

But I fail to see the black and white distinction that you believe is there.

What specific parts of the clip do you want me to explain for you?

I think you are just coming up with a less-scientific word for the exact thing that I am talking about. I say "psychology" and you say "magic." In which case, our disagreement is pointless, leading me back once again to my original confusion which is what were you getting at in your original reply?

Originally Posted by Rainman

which one of these do you consider to be the "real" definition of magic?

This is the definition of what "magic" really is that I agree with:

"magic trick: an illusory feat; considered magical by naive observers "

I don't understand your original reply to my comments on Derren Brown then. I never claimed what he was doing to be anything other than what he is doing...NLP and social engineering. Maybe covert/conversational hypnotism.

You clearly said the he does NOT do "magic" tricks. See:

Derren Brown is not a magician of any kind, nor is anything he does "magic". Nor does he claim to be. In fact, I'm pretty sure he explains everything he does in the beginning of every episode.

... to which I responded to point out that he, in fact, DOES.

What specific parts of the clip do you want me to explain for you?

I understood it quite well, thank you. But you seem to think that his techniques differ from what is known as magic.

I think you are just coming up with a less-scientific word for the exact thing that I am talking about. I say "psychology" and you say "magic."

Yes, exactly. What he does is the same thing that a magician (or psychic, or mentalist, or medium, witch doctor, or... or...) does.

In which case, our disagreement is pointless,

It's only pointless if we continue with our current beliefs: You = it's essentially a different principal; Me = they are essentially all the same set of principals.

leading me back once again to my original confusion which is what were you getting at in your original reply?

I just explained that ^. And to tie it all together, they are all very close kin to the things the guy in the original video did with his "chakras".

This is amazing.

This one pretty cool too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co6G-vyAlII