Thread: The Perfect Government

lets understand this...
things : power, money, love, airplane, flowers, guns, ect..
doesnt make you
humble, corrupted, loving, hateful, cheerful, ect..

We are already with those qualities.. We were raised, educated, cultivated, ect..
wrongly, by same people like we are now - parents..

Thats why in old villages there will be always people will less hate, less lies, less fakers...
Because there people are different... ( as the apple doesnt fall far away from the tree )
i think people from alaska, or tibet, or hm, new zew-zealand will be with less negative qualities...
Thats my point of view..

So how am I wrong?

Keeper wrote:" In fact, it is Power that draws the Corrupt, and Absolute Power draws the Absolutely Corrupt."
i think it was a bit hard to understand - "it is Power that draws the Corrupt".. meaning.. now i think i understand you... i think you mant.. it is power that pulls out the corrupt thinking from the people.. right?

I'm afraid that is not what I ment. Corrupt people are drawn to power.

Originally Posted by roguext22

you are so wrong you cant imagine how...

keeper is wrong too...

Why, anarchyboy?

Originally Posted by roguext22

lets understand this...
things : power, money, love, airplane, flowers, guns, ect..
doesnt make you
humble, corrupted, loving, hateful, cheerful, ect..

We are already with those qualities.. We were raised, educated, cultivated, ect..
wrongly, by same people like we are now - parents..

Thats why in old villages there will be always people will less hate, less lies, less fakers...
Because there people are different... ( as the apple doesnt fall far away from the tree )
i think people from alaska, or tibet, or hm, new zew-zealand will be with less negative qualities...
Thats my point of view..

"power, money, love, airplane, flowers, guns, ect.. doesnt make you
humble, corrupted, loving, hateful, cheerful, ect.."

Explain this. As far as I know, having power makes you not humble. Money can make you narcisstic, egotistical and arrogant. Flowers can make you happy. Etc. Most of what you mentioned were objects. They usually don't have an effect. However qualities such as power and authority (money falls under this category as well even though it's something you can touch) have definite effects on you. Explain - and back up - why you say they don't.

I'm not going to even dignify "i think people from alaska, or tibet, or hm, new zew-zealand will be with less negative qualities..." with an answer.

The rest of what you wrote can be summed up like this:

1. Rural areas do not necessarily have "good" people in them, and if you actually had any knowledge about the subject you'ld know that city areas actually aren't the "baddest".

2. You're right - upbringing and personal experiences play a large part in your psyche. That all has nothing to do with whether or not situations determine your actions, nor does it have anything to do with whether or not power or authority influence people.

3. It's ridiculous to say that people end up one way and thereafter cannot be changed or influenced. The word you use is "cultivated". People are "cultivated" their whole lives. Your experiences are constantly changing you.

4. This is a minor point. Children aren't necessarily similar to their parents.

If you've bothered to read my links about this I'd love an answer.

how can i explain more if you dont understand what i wrote...
and its only point of view...

I was only pointing out that your point of view is based on generalisations and random assuptions and as we can see from your reply has nothing to back it up, wereas my point of view is based on fact and considerable evaluation.

Oh, and if you can't back your opinion up with anything you a) have made a bad point and b) should probably apologize to anyone who isn't from Alaska, Tibet or Australia, etc, because you basically said that everyone else was a more negative person, which in your own words means someone with "hate", "lies" and is a "faker" (you said people with positive qualities have "less hate, less lies, less fakers"), for no reason whatsoever.

That was quite a long sentence. It confused me, and I wrote it. Basically it meant you said that people from Tibet etc. have less negative qualities, which implies that people not in Tibet etc. have more negative qualities. Your idea of people with negative qualities are people who "hate", "lie" and are "fakers" (also implied in the text) which means that you have dehumanized to a greater or lesser extent everyone outside the areas you mentioned. Good greif.

The answer?





(more or less)

You say that cyborgs are the answer? Cool. I'll be back soon and then I'll be able to give a big post on it.

Originally Posted by ethen

The answer?





(more or less)

Yes, who said free will was a good thing anyways ?

Originally Posted by Keeper

I'm afraid that is not what I ment. Corrupt people are drawn to power.

You're implying that some people are just born "corrupt people"?
I thought the whole power-crazed situation was when a previously innocent person becomes corrupted after achieving power, no?

As long as we abuse the Material matter, we will never have a Perfect gouvernment.
If we switch into the Spiritual path, not talking about religions. We could have a amazing gouvernment. Whos main purpose is to develop our inner self. And connect to the higher self.

As for now, i cant even imagine a perfect gouvernment.

There will be many social and economic changes if the world was run by cyborgs. It was more detailed before, but I made an error and wiped part of it.

Economic changes: Our world won't work any more. Education will be redundant. To get any information, you'll just need to plug yourself into the Internet. We'll be able to learn new languages in seconds, for example.

We'll become immortal. Superadvanced and intelligent. No field or industry (such as Medicine, or Business) would work any more. Every single person on the planet will be able to preform any job. Most industries will be redundant, but the ones that remain won't work any more because they are based on hierarchy. And every single person will be able to preform at the highest level.

Social changes - Society will form into three distinct groups.

Group one: Superior. These are the superhumans. They'll be superior in every field, super intelligent and immortal. Because not everyone will possess cyborg technology. It'll be expensive, you see. Not everyone will have those technologies. They'll be in charge.

Group two: Inferior. The humans without the option of becoming cyborgs. They'll be trodden on by everyone else until they hate all other forms of human.

Group three: Humanists. Those with the option to become superhuman cyborgs but choose to stay with a traditional, human lifestyle and cling onto raw human intelligence rather than computerised intelligence. I don't know what their role will be, but I assume they will be against the modern, cyborg way of life.

It's possible that the Superiors will have surveillence on them like a huge Big Brother operation and have a type of law enforcement dealing with, regulating and generally keeping them in their proper place. If that happens there will be a Standford Prison Experiment phenomenon on a global scale: Inferiors will become paranoid, oppressed, hateful and psychologically crushed until they have no will left, resulting in pathological and psychotic behaviour. The Superious will become cruel, sadistic and egotistical.

A huge gulf will emerge between the three groups, although it's likely that the Humanists will side with the Inferior humans and lead them to try and regain Humanistic values. The Superiors will have to fight to stay in control. There will be wars and wars between these groups until nothing (or almost nothing) remains.

Originally Posted by born_2_kill

We could have a amazing gouvernment. Whos main purpose is to develop our inner self. And connect to the higher self.

I`d rather have a balanced budget, good economic growth, low crime rate, etc.

Lol!!! I couldn't breath, I was laughing so hard.

As soon as I saw that post I wanted to say: Wow. That sounds amazing. Spiritual enlightenment. Sounds like a great government. It's sorted. What will their position on poverty in Africa be, exactly?

A perfect government implies the existence of perfect people to maintain it.

Unfortunately, even the best governmental system is wholly dependent on the vigilance and drive of the governed in order to maintain it. Both great and poor governments create harmful sentiments in the minds of the governed, complacency in the former and malice in the latter. The forces of human nature tend toward inadequate and unjust systems of government. The only force that opposes that decay is the cultural attachment to the goal of good governance, since it is the only force that compels action whether the government is good or bad. That cultural attachment eventually withers, and the goal of good governance is lost among competing desires, like safety and greed.

There is no perfect government; no perfect populace. The best systems will eventually decay as the cultural value of good governance changes, a process that can be accelerated, slowed, or reversed by the influence of chaotic external events.

That's what we're arguing. Oh, and if you'd read the entire thing you'ld see that we are arguing government styles that aren't necessarily perfect, merely efficient.

The Pure King Idea

1. Can there be a perfect person?
2. Will powerful authority figures eventually corrupt?
3. If such a person will eventually corrupt, what can be done to prevent this and improve that type of government system?

Cyborg Idea

1. If humans were made into superhumans, would our systems survive?
2. If humans were made into superhumans, what would be the socio-economic changes?
3. Would the Stanford Prison Experiment effect aply?
4. Would such a society be able to work to any degree or will it destroy itself?

Spiritual Idea

We have no information on it whatsoever.

Originally Posted by A Humble Sinner

Cyborg Idea

1. If humans were made into superhumans, would our systems survive?

No, and thats the point. Our system is inherently flawed. Becomming borg would allows us to function as a whole organism as opposed to billions of individual things conflicting, misunderstanding, and taking advantage of one another to our own collective peril.

Originally Posted by A Humble Sinner

2. If humans were made into superhumans, what would be the socio-economic changes?

Equality. Seeing as each individual would be an equal part of the whole, there would no longer be petty competition for selfish ends, only cooperation.

Originally Posted by A Humble Sinner

3. Would the Stanford Prison Experiment effect aply?

No, because there would no longer be individuality or specialized roles...nor egos.

Originally Posted by A Humble Sinner

4. Would such a society be able to work to any degree or will it destroy itself?

All people working as one mind would not only alows us to evolve at an unimaginable rate, but we wouldn't have to worry about crime, war, violence or anything else that we now do that harms the whole.





But fracture and dissonance are inherent byproducts of individuality and freedom. Better enjoy it.

That's interesting what you mentioned - equality, helping each other. How would it work? I imagine that everyone will get what they need and use their own skills to help each other out. But they'll all be so advanced, there won't be any difference between them. They can help themselves. And they will want power. They will want to get ahead in the world. Humans are geared towards hiearchy. What will you do about that?

"No, and thats the point. Our system is inherently flawed. Becomming borg would allows us to function as a whole organism as opposed to billions of individual things conflicting, misunderstanding, and taking advantage of one another to our own collective peril."

The cyborg I mentioned earlier (deleted from my earlier post by accidental editing) would be a result of advancements in nanotechnology and computer programming. They would stay as individuals.

And explain how people will deal with unneeded industries, such as food and business. How will the world work?

And people will not function as one. Advances in technology will make us individual cyborgs.

And how would we deal with the social changes I mentioned?

"The Borg are depicted as an amalgam of cybernetically enhanced humanoid drones of multiple species, organised as an inter-connected collective with a hive mind, inhabiting a vast region of space with many planets and ships, and sophisticated technology. They operate towards one single minded purpose: to add the biological and technological distinctiveness of other species to their own, in pursuit of perfection. This is achieved through forced assimilation, a process which transforms individuals and technology into Borg, enhancing individuals by adding synthetic components."

The Borg


I think we're talking about two different things. I mean borg, you mean cyborgs. The difference between the two is that, though cyborgs would have enhanced capabilities, they would still have the inner drive to compete, be special, and be individual...all of which creates the very problems you are asking us to solve.

I see. Borg could work. But what about the people who can't get the technology? You actually end up in the same Three group scenario, just this time with Borgs.
And if our system is so flawed (I don't think there's anything wrong with our system, this is just a good thought experiment) economically wise, who do you propose we use instead?

When I said flawed, I meant flawed in the strictest sense (that being that our system isn't perfect). And our system isn't perfect, therefore its flawed. The reason it isn't perfect is because we are imperfect humans with impefect human tendencies. These tendencies are what make it impossible for a "perfect" government to be created by us.

thats about it. We are too free, too individual, too violent, too self-invested, and too limited (both mentally and physically) to create and/or run a perfect government. The imperfection isn't necessarily in our system, its in our natures as human beings.

The whole idea of bringing up the borg was to expose the unpleasent reality of what it would take for us to create or have a perfect system of government. We have paradoxical standards that are simply incompatable with one another. Freedom and compliance, being special and being equal, etc.

Originally Posted by Howie

Power corrupts. Absolute power absolutely corrupts.


Power and money are two things that, with time humans struggle to remain - humble.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely

Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it, we go nowhere."



imagine that!