ABC's John Miller Interviews Osama Bin Laden (1998)

[Oneironaut Zero]

SumpledUpon this and am just posting it because I don't think I'd ever read it before, and found it interesting. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...interview.html Discuss, if you wish.

[dragonoverlord]

i have to admit Bin laden is correct about what should be done about the Sadui Royal Family.

[RedfishBluefish]

Bin Laden is wrong about "the principle of reciprocity". In general, both sides of a war think they are doing the right thing, thus mutual retaliation equals mutual destruction. And generalizing on people who happen to live inside some arbritrary geographic location (ie. America) is plain wrong.

[ChrissyMaria]

Well honestly I don't blame the man for being angry, we helped his people get rid of the soviets, and the cia trained them and pretty much took off and said your on your own take care have a nice life. But, I do however think hes a lunatic for murdering civilians in the name of politicians, if anyone should be attacked its the men in charge, not us citizens, we just goto work and do what we're told.

[Universal Mind]

Well honestly I don't blame the man for being angry, we helped his people get rid of the soviets, and the cia trained them and pretty much took off and said your on your own take care have a nice life. That is a bad thing? My God, he should be thanking us every day for that. We didn't have to do a damn thing for them. Only a sociopath like Bin Laden would take such a huge favor and have nothing to say about it except that we did not do more. What an ungrateful piece of trash. But, I do however think hes a lunatic for murdering civilians in the name of politicians, if anyone should be attacked its the men in charge, not us citizens, we just goto work and do what we're told. He should have never attacked any of us. He should have started a communication campaign to get the American people to understand his points. That would have gotten their side heard in a country where Islam and Islamic causes are not well known. Instead, he made enemies of pretty much all of us and made Americans very anti-Islamic. Now pretty much every American strongly associates Islam with terrorism. Bin Laden was very stupid and evil to create such a situation. Approaching us with a smile on his face and logical points to talk about would have gotten him many times further with the U.S. He is a primitive minded douchebag. This passage right here spells out the definition of lunatic level of prejudice: We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets, and this is what the fatwah says ... . The fatwah is general (comprehensive) and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims. That "all" includes every single American. If you are an American, he is talking about YOU. He considers YOU a target. Don't forget that.

[dragonoverlord]

He should have never attacked any of us. He should have started a communication campaign to get the American people to understand his points. That would have gotten their side heard in a country where Islam and Islamic causes are not well known. Instead, he made enemies of pretty much all of us and made Americans very anti-Islamic. Now pretty much every American strongly associates Islam with terrorism. Bin Laden was very stupid and evil to create such a situation. Approaching us with a smile on his face and logical points to talk about would have gotten him many times further with the U.S. He is a primitive minded douchebag. This passage right here spells out the definition of lunatic level of prejudice: We believe that the worst thieves in the world today and the worst terrorists are the Americans. Nothing could stop you except perhaps retaliation in kind. We do not have to differentiate between military or civilian. As far as we are concerned, they are all targets, and this is what the fatwah says ... . The fatwah is general (comprehensive) and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims. That "all" includes every single American. If you are an American, he is talking about YOU. He considers YOU a target. Don't forget that. Here read alittle of Bin Ladens "letter to america" You are speaking in very broad terms. Osama tried to communicate. He went to the King of KSA and told him don't bring the americans here (to the holy land). Provide me with 100 000 men with good provisions and we will drive out the Iraqies from Kuwait. But no the King of KSA refused and let Bush senior bring in his soldiers. It explains it in more detail in Bin Ladens letter to america so i thought i would provide some excerts so that people who are reading will be able to understand in greater detail... You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it. (2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!! (3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake: (a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want. (b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates. (c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us. (d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us. (e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us. (f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. Whoever has destroyed our villages and towns, then we have the right to destroy their villages and towns. Whoever has stolen our wealth, then we have the right to destroy their economy. And whoever has killed our civilians, then we have the right to kill theirs. The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question: Why did they attack us in New York and Washington? If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands. That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom? (xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others. (a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!! (b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them. (c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America. (d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

[Universal Mind]

Yes, I have read the whole thing. You left out the part where he goes into how we are evil because we allow alcohol, stock trade, and a government that is not Koran oriented and how he will not call off his war with us until we change all of it. What about it? Do you support his generalized prejudice against Americans and call for Muslims to kill anybody who is American or something? I challenge you to say something against it. Do children pay taxes? Do all American tax payers agree with what the government does with tax money? What are you trying to say? When I say "communicate", I am talking about the mass media, the internet, public forums, etc. I was not limiting the principle to a few powerful Americans. Usama Bin Laden has been the worst advertisement for Islam to the United States there has ever been. What a dumb ass.

[dragonoverlord]

Yes, I have read the whole thing. You left out the part where he goes into how we are evil because we allow alcohol, stock trade, and a government that is not Koran oriented and how he will not call off his war with us until we change all of it. What about it? Do you support his generalized prejudice against Americans and call for Muslims to kill anybody who is American or something? I challenge you to say something against it. Do children pay taxes? Do all American tax payers agree with what the government does with tax money? What are you trying to say? When I say "communicate", I am talking about the mass media, the internet, public forums, etc. I was not limiting the principle to a few powerful Americans. Usama Bin Laden has been the worst advertisement for Islam to the United States there has ever been. What a dumb ass. Those pety things about alchohol/gambling and what not pale compared to the grievances over the last 50 years they have and they are after USA for those grivences i gave above, not for you guys drinking alchohol. As for the Media i beleive Osama Bin Laden issued Fatwas in 1996 and 1998 which showed his intentions. Thats how he reached out i guess plus he used his former high status iin Saudi society to try and get the Saudi King to not bring USA troops to KSA and if that didn't work given his high status at the time then obviously nothing else would. I don't support Al Qaeda or their views about civilans being legitimate targets...I stated that a few times before, im just giving showing Al Qaeda's views in greater detail so that people can get it from the horses mouth so to speak....

[Universal Mind]

Those pety things about alchohol/gambling and what not pale compared to the grievances over the last 50 years they have and they are after USA for those grivences i gave above, not for you guys drinking alchohol. The letter mentions those things and others and says that if we do not meet ALL of the demands of the letter, the fuckface will not call off his war. It says it. Read it again. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. We have debated the "grievances" you talk about. Our presence in the Middle East has been justified, and Bin Laden is an evil religious fanatic for wanting to kill "all" Americans over it and the other bizarre bullshit he talks about. Israel is a democracy, and protecting democracy was a very important objective during the Cold War. It is the moral thing to do any way, and it is necessary to do it now. Our aid to and trade with Iraq was never an obligation, so we did not "starve" Iraqis. At some point, you need to admit how religiously nutty that wack job Bin Laden is. Do you admit it? I asked you a question in another thread, and you did not answer it. Why are you so obsessively supportive of Islam? You are a French Canadian who claims to not be a Muslim, so what exactly is your deal with all of this? You are not just obsessed with Islamic causes. You are obsessed with acting as some kind of internet attorney for Islamofascists. I really don't get this. You put so much energy into taking up for the most insanely evil people in the world. Why? As for the Media i beleive Osama Bin Laden issued Fatwas in 1996 and 1998 which showed his intentions. Thats how he reached out i guess plus he used his former high status iin Saudi society to try and get the Saudi King to not bring USA troops to KSA and if that didn't work given his high status at the time then obviously nothing else would. I don't support Al Qaeda or their views about civilans being legitimate targets...I stated that a few times before, im just giving showing Al Qaeda's views in greater detail so that people can get it from the horses mouth so to speak.... Then you should have posted the entire letter. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver Since you claim you do not support Bin Laden's sick propaganda, let's see you speak out against it as passionately as you have spoken against the United States. I would like to see the full scope of how much you really are against Al Qaeda. Go off against them, if you really detest what they do. Show us the full extent of your passion.

[dragonoverlord]

The letter mentions those things and others and says that if we do not meet ALL of the demands of the letter, the fuckface will not call off his war. It says it. Read it again. If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. We have debated the "grievances" you talk about. Our presence in the Middle East has been justified, and Bin Laden is an evil religious fanatic for wanting to kill "all" Americans over it and the other bizarre bullshit he talks about. Israel is a democracy, and protecting democracy was a very important objective during the Cold War. It is the moral thing to do any way, and it is necessary to do it now. Our aid to and trade with Iraq was never an obligation, so we did not "starve" Iraqis. At some point, you need to admit how religiously nutty that wack job Bin Laden is. Do you admit it? I think the "conditions" are just a tought stance he putts on for his followers, i beleive he could live without those conditions on alchohol, and usury or whatever being met, the ones i posted are the ones i view as non neogitable. the ones concerning lifestyle and stuff is negotiable in my view. As for the American Prescence in Saudi Arabia i view that as jusitified. On the other hand the Invasion of Iraq...NO. I didn't think there was any palce for the USA to invade without NATO or UN sanctioning it. I think there is a spot in the UN charter that says no country can agress onother country without UN approvoal unless the countries defense is in dire threat. The USA was not in dire threat of Iraq at all, hardly any threat and the threat presented by the Bush Administration as justification was greatly exagerated or fabricated. Watch fareinheight 9/11...You can get it on youtube, As for "Israel" what type of democracy is it? Before israel was formed there was an arab majority. why did the british not ask the christian and muslim majority if they wanted the land under their feet carved up for eastern european jewish immigrants? What type of democracy is that? Israel is a democracy created for jews and not for Palestinians who are for the most part held up in open air prisons (West Bank and Gaza). israel must be wiped of the map and the land be restored to their rightful owners. Israel is a vestige of Colonialsm. ]I asked you a question in another thread, and you did not answer it. Why are you so obsessively supportive of Islam? You are a French Canadian who claims to not be a Muslim, so what exactly is your deal with all of this? You are not just obsessed with Islamic causes. You are obsessed with acting as some kind of internet attorney for Islamofascists. I really don't get this. You put so much energy into taking up for the most insanely evil people in the world. Why? First im not french canadain i hold multiple citizenships including canadian and french citizenships. If you say im French canadain then it implies that im Quebecois which im not. Secound why i support the people who i support is my own that i don't want to divolge but it has nothing to do with relegion at all. Then you should have posted the entire letter. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver Since you claim you do not support Bin Laden's sick propaganda, let's see you speak out against it as passionately as you have spoken against the United States. I would like to see the full scope of how much you really are against Al Qaeda. Go off against them, if you really detest what they do. Show us the full extent of your passion. Al Qaeda has bombed targets in Europe (madrid) and in Mooroco and Algeria and personally this is why im not fan of Al Qaeda since they killed Europeans and Arabs. They killed innocent europeans and arabs and thats reason enough for me to be apposed to them and thats why i personally dont like Al Qaeda for those sensless attacks and i honestly can't support people who did those attacks.

[Universal Mind]

I think the "conditions" are just a tought stance he putts on for his followers, i beleive he could live without those conditions on alchohol, and usury or whatever being met, the ones i posted are the ones i view as non neogitable. the ones concerning lifestyle and stuff is negotiable in my view. Where do you get that? His letter says otherwise. The passionate speeches of Al Qaeda and other evil Islamofascist scum say otherwise. They overwhelmingly despise our lifestyle and the influence it has on the world. As for the American Prescence in Saudi Arabia i view that as jusitified. On the other hand the Invasion of Iraq...NO. I didn't think there was any palce for the USA to invade without NATO or UN sanctioning it. I think there is a spot in the UN charter that says no country can agress onother country without UN approvoal unless the countries defense is in dire threat. The USA was not in dire threat of Iraq at all, hardly any threat and the threat presented by the Bush Administration as justification was greatly exagerated or fabricated. Watch fareinheight 9/11...You can get it on youtube, How is a genocidal terrorist dicatatorship that funds terrorist groups, provides financial incentives for suicide bombers, has engaged in WMD terrorism, and can get WMD's into the hands of terrorists who join them in their maniacal hatred for the U.S. not a threat? The WMD stockpile intelligence came from our CIA, our Senate, our previous administration, five other governments, and officials at the U.N. The claim that it was a fabrication is a fabrication. As for "Israel" what type of democracy is it? Before israel was formed there was an arab majority. why did the british not ask the christian and muslim majority if they wanted the land under their feet carved up for eastern european jewish immigrants? What type of democracy is that? Israel is a democracy created for jews and not for Palestinians who are for the most part held up in open air prisons (West Bank and Gaza). israel must be wiped of the map and the land be restored to their rightful owners. Israel is a vestige of Colonialsm. Wiped off the map? Nice one. Israel is a democracy where the people run the government and where Muslims are allowed to live. It is true that Muslims do not quite have all of the same rights as Jews there, but I think they should. People should be judged individually, and Israel should have a nonsecular government that gives equal rights to all of its citizens. I don't at all buy into the idea that people's ancestry should be held against them. It is a profoundly absurd and unfair concept. Every person is an individual. Treating a race or a religion as one big team with a single mind is flat out illogical and is the root of most of tragedy in the world. IFirst im not french canadain i hold multiple citizenships including canadian and french citizenships. If you say im French canadain then it implies that im Quebecois which im not. Secound why i support the people who i support is my own that i don't want to divolge but it has nothing to do with relegion at all. Didn't you say you were born in France and now live in Canada? That makes you French Canadian just like a person born in Mexico who lives in the U.S. is Mexican American. Any way, it is very odd that you have such an obsession with taking up for illogical cave men who do not have consciences and are the sorriest pieces of shit on Earth. And you don't want to say why? Are you working for a terrorist organization or something? Whatever it is, don't let that scum suck you in and make you their toy moron. They don't care whether you live or die. That is how they feel about you. Al Qaeda has bombed targets in Europe (madrid) and in Mooroco and Algeria and personally this is why im not fan of Al Qaeda since they killed Europeans and Arabs. They killed innocent europeans and arabs and thats reason enough for me to be apposed to them and thats why i personally dont like Al Qaeda for those sensless attacks and i honestly can't support people who did those attacks. I don't see much passion in saying you "personally don't like Al Qaeda". Also, you have no problem with them for targetting innocent Americans, huh? Please explain why you have nothing to say about the fact that the Americans they killed included children and other Americans who do not support American involvement in the Middle East. Tell me why that does not bother you. What about the fact that what they did here led to the overthrow of the Hussein regime and the Taliban, a many fold increase in American prejudice toward Muslims, far less American sympathy for the Palestinian cause, and the fact that virtually the only association Americans make with Islam is now terrorism? Do you have a problem with the fact that they brought about all of that? If they had gone about things the way civilized people do, they could have done a lot to win a large percentage of Americans over to their religion and its causes. But look at what came about instead.

[dragonoverlord]

Where do you get that? His letter says otherwise. The passionate speeches of Al Qaeda and other evil Islamofascist scum say otherwise. They overwhelmingly despise our lifestyle and the influence it has on the world. They despise it sure but im sure they would rather comprise on the other issues and have the ones regaarding life style un-met. How is a genocidal terrorist dicatatorship that funds terrorist groups, provides financial incentives for suicide bombers, has engaged in WMD terrorism, and can get WMD's into the hands of terrorists who join them in their maniacal hatred for the U.S. not a threat? They were not an imminet threat to the USA at all, there was no evidence to assume they were aiming a missle or otherwise at an American city or that they had any connection to Al Qaeda. I beleive at the height of the genocide of the Kurds and at the height of Iraq possessing chemical weapons, Iraq had rather good relations with the USA and that Saddam was regarded a friend of the west. Prey tell why your country did not use it's good releationship with Iraq to aleviate the situation of the Kurds? The WMD stockpile intelligence came from our CIA, our Senate, our previous administration, five other governments, and officials at the U.N. The claim that it was a fabrication is a fabrication. Did America find the Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at all? Did the USA find the "Yellow cake Uranium" that the bush administration was talking about? Remember they were talkinga bout how they got it from Nigeria or something.... I think in the 90's Iraq apparently had chemical weapons but they only had a shelf life of several months. Wiped off the map? Nice one. Israel is a democracy where the people run the government and where Muslims are allowed to live. It is true that Muslims do not quite have all of the same rights as Jews there, but I think they should. People should be judged individually, and Israel should have a nonsecular government that gives equal rights to all of its citizens. I don't at all buy into the idea that people's ancestry should be held against them. It is a profoundly absurd and unfair concept. Every person is an individual. Treating a race or a religion as one big team with a single mind is flat out illogical and is the root of most of tragedy in the world. Muslims should not have the same rights as jews???? Why??? are they inferior? Why should israel have a non secular government? Listen all i know is in 1948 when israel was carved up Arabs were the majority on that piece of land set aside for a jewish state. This was a horrible error on the part of Britain and the UN and it was must be fixed. The land which arabs were a majority was usurped fromt hem and you say those who are still there should not have rights....why?? The israelies are a group which don't and didn't respect the local population when they immigrated to the middle east. They might aswell be a single mind with a single intent, they have no right to be there, the american gov research i posted forsaw that artifically creating a jewish state for eastern european immigrants could only be achieved by force and would not be well met by the local population. Israel is a mistake that needs to be fixed in my opinion. As far as im concerned every rocket, suicide bomber they get is well earned. the eastern european jews in palestine are just like the dutch who went to south africa at the end of Apartheid. At the end of Apatheid they AfriKKKaners demanded a white only state when they realised their strangehold over SA was at an end. in 1948 the immigrants to palestine demanded their own country on majority arab land because they dont like the idea of having to share a state with arabs. Didn't you say you were born in France and now live in Canada? That makes you French Canadian just like a person born in Mexico who lives in the U.S. is Mexican American. Any way, it is very odd that you have such an obsession with taking up for illogical cave men who do not have consciences and are the sorriest pieces of shit on Earth. And you don't want to say why? Are you working for a terrorist organization or something? Whatever it is, don't let that scum suck you in and make you their toy moron. They don't care whether you live or die. That is how they feel about you. Im really tired of you insinuating that im a terrorist UM. Im not affilated nor have i ever been with a terrorist organazation. You simply asked why i have the views that i do and i said i wish to keep that to myself, basically what i mean is thats none of your business. I don't see much passion in saying you "personally don't like Al Qaeda". Also, you have no problem with them for targetting innocent Americans, huh? Please explain why you have nothing to say about the fact that the Americans they killed included children and other Americans who do not support American involvement in the Middle East. Tell me why that does not bother you. What about the fact that what they did here led to the overthrow of the Hussein regime and the Taliban, a many fold increase in American prejudice toward Muslims, far less American sympathy for the Palestinian cause, and the fact that virtually the only association Americans make with Islam is now terrorism? Do you have a problem with the fact that they brought about all of that? If they had gone about things the way civilized people do, they could have done a lot to win a large percentage of Americans over to their religion and its causes. But look at what came about instead. I said before i support Hezbollah but at the same time Hezbollah does something i dont like namely they attack jews internationally as revenge against Israel. They bombed a jewish cultural center once in Argentina. Although i don't like what they did thats not an issue for me cause im neither jewish nor argentinan. But if hezbollah was to attack Belgium then i couldn't support them anymore becuase that would be an attack on my country. As far as im concerned in matter to Al Qaeda im not an american so what they do to americans/america is not an issue for me although its a shame as is all loss of human life... Its what they do to moderate arab countries and european countries thats what makes me appose them. Its a real shame what Al Qaeda did on 9/11 and it would be great if it could have been avoided because the attack istelf and the rammifications of those attacks have cost many many lives....Loss of human life is terrible initself

[Universal Mind]

They despise it sure but im sure they would rather comprise on the other issues and have the ones regaarding life style un-met. That is an assumption you can't back up with anything. Their hateful speech says what it says, and Bin Laden's letter says what it says. They were not an imminet threat to the USA at all, there was no evidence to assume they were aiming a missle or otherwise at an American city or that they had any connection to Al Qaeda. They were a threat for the reasons I stated. I never said they had missiles pointed at us. I said they could have gotten their weapons into the hands of a terrorist group, whether one they had a history of supporting or not. They and Al Qaeda had a common enemy, which was us. The fact that the Hussein regime was having meetings with Al Qaeda and harboring Zarqawi was a chilling bonus. I beleive at the height of the genocide of the Kurds and at the height of Iraq possessing chemical weapons, Iraq had rather good relations with the USA and that Saddam was regarded a friend of the west. Prey tell why your country did not use it's good releationship with Iraq to aleviate the situation of the Kurds? They were despicable, but they were working with us against Iran. We became their enemy when we drove them out of Kuwait after they took it over. Then 9/11 inspired the Bush Doctrine, and the Hussein regime fell under it. They also violated our ceasefire on terrorism grounds for 12 years. I have no idea what we could have done for the Kurds other than overthrow their sick government. Did America find the Weapons of mass destruction in Iraq at all? Did the USA find the "Yellow cake Uranium" that the bush administration was talking about? Remember they were talkinga bout how they got it from Nigeria or something.... They have not been found, but that does not prove they didn't exist. Jimmy Hoffa has not been found either. Neither has Bin Laden. Did they ever exist? I think in the 90's Iraq apparently had chemical weapons but they only had a shelf life of several months. Might they have ever had them again? They were developing nuclear weapons until Israel destroyed their factory. They had a history of working on WMD's and using them for terrorism. Is a suicide bomber government with WMD propensity a threat? Of course it is. Muslims should not have the same rights as jews???? Why??? are they inferior? Why should israel have a non secular government? You need to reread what I wrote. I have told you at least fifteen times that a democracy where all religions are treated equally is the only legitimate form of goverment. It is you who disagrees with that. Listen all i know is in 1948 when israel was carved up Arabs were the majority on that piece of land set aside for a jewish state. This was a horrible error on the part of Britain and the UN and it was must be fixed. The land which arabs were a majority was usurped fromt hem and you say those who are still there should not have rights....why?? Again, read what I actually wrote. I don't know how many times I need to tell you that Israel should be a democracy where all relgions are treated equally and citizens are treated as individuals. That is the only fair way of doing things, and you cannot right the past by repeating a different version of the same wrong. The israelies are a group which don't and didn't respect the local population when they immigrated to the middle east. They might aswell be a single mind with a single intent, they have no right to be there, the american gov research i posted forsaw that artifically creating a jewish state for eastern european immigrants could only be achieved by force and would not be well met by the local population. Israel is a mistake that needs to be fixed in my opinion. As far as im concerned every rocket, suicide bomber they get is well earned. What did the children who were born in Israel do to deserve the awful things you wish on them? What did the adults who were born in Israel do to deserve it? (I have asked you those two questions many times, and you have yet to answer them. I really want to know what you have to say to them.) They are not a single mind. That is where you are dangerously wrong. As long as people in the Middle East see things the way you are preaching them, the Middle East is going to be a clusterfuck of mindless tragedy. The only solutions are democracy of equality and recognition of individuality. The absence of those will result in nothing but a perpetual nightmare. the eastern european jews in palestine are just like the dutch who went to south africa at the end of Apartheid. At the end of Apatheid they AfriKKKaners demanded a white only state when they realised their strangehold over SA was at an end. in 1948 the immigrants to palestine demanded their own country on majority arab land because they dont like the idea of having to share a state with arabs. The 1948 immigrants and the vast majority of the people who live there now ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!! Your deeply rooted prejudice is giving you the illusion that they are. They are not! Im really tired of you insinuating that im a terrorist UM. Im not affilated nor have i ever been with a terrorist organazation. You simply asked why i have the views that i do and i said i wish to keep that to myself, basically what i mean is thats none of your business. What that basically means is that you have something to hide. You think two year olds who live in Israel deserve to be blown up while riding a bus just because they belong to a large group you hate, and you think that even though you were never able to tell me specifically what good results from it. With all due respect, that is the mentality of a terrorist. I am not out of line in asking if you are a member of a terrorist organization when that is what you preach. I said before i support Hezbollah but at the same time Hezbollah does something i dont like namely they attack jews internationally as revenge against Israel. They bombed a jewish cultural center once in Argentina. Although i don't like what they did thats not an issue for me cause im neither jewish nor argentinan. But if hezbollah was to attack Belgium then i couldn't support them anymore becuase that would be an attack on my country. As far as im concerned in matter to Al Qaeda im not an american so what they do to americans/america is not an issue for me although its a shame as is all loss of human life... Its what they do to moderate arab countries and european countries thats what makes me appose them. Well at least you call the 9/11 attacks "a shame", but you do support what Hezbollah does to innocent Israelis. The fact of the matter is that you support a terrorist group that targets the innocent out of pure "get even with THEM" even though nothing good results from it. Its a real shame what Al Qaeda did on 9/11 and it would be great if it could have been avoided because the attack istelf and the rammifications of those attacks have cost many many lives....Loss of human life is terrible initself It's good to see you saying that. I just wish you would say it about innocent Israeli individuals who were born in Israel, who never stole anything, and who in many cases don't even understand enough about life to know that there is a conflict. Israel needs to be a country where Muslims and Jews can live together equally and share what they both think is the "holy land". Any Israeli arrangement other than that is guaranteed disaster.

[dragonoverlord]

That is an assumption you can't back up with anything. Their hateful speech says what it says, and Bin Laden's letter says what it says. In the UN-likely event that Bin Ladens demands could be met by the USA Gov atleast the demans of substance then im sure he would comprise on the issues regarding lifestyle. In onothe thread i was just reading a bit ago there was this koran thing that said "strike terror into the heart of the non beleivers lest they incline towards peace" or something like that... Think about it for a sec man! They were a threat for the reasons I stated. I never said they had missiles pointed at us. I said they could have gotten their weapons into the hands of a terrorist group, whether one they had a history of supporting or not. They and Al Qaeda had a common enemy, which was us. The fact that the Hussein regime was having meetings with Al Qaeda and harboring Zarqawi was a chilling bonus. Ya well anyone can support "terrorists". Your country has a history of supporting Guerrillas in Latin America, Guerrilllas like FARC which some countries consider terrorist organazations. During the Lebanese Civil War Israel armed and supported Maronite "terrorists" to help destabilize the country further and inrease the sectarian divide. For all you know any country could have the possibility of arming "terrorists". Thats not a good enough excuse. They were despicable, but they were working with us against Iran. We became their enemy when we drove them out of Kuwait after they took it over. Then 9/11 inspired the Bush Doctrine, and the Hussein regime fell under it. They also violated our ceasefire on terrorism grounds for 12 years. I have no idea what we could have done for the Kurds other than overthrow their sick government. LOL you guys didn't give a shit about the Kurds and you still don't. Excuses excuses. America support rogue countries when its conventient and you betray them when its conventient. How did the Problem with Iran come about? Wester Imperialism. I know its a dum word but its true. America and Britian and Israel even supported the tyrant known as the Shah. Britain (and if im not wrong america to some extent)overthrew the democracticly elected government of Iran. Why? Because he nationalized his countries petrol and gas resources and took the fate of the country away from a Britisih Company called British Petroleum know called "Beyound Petroleum" I'm sure you've seen their commercials. Anyway the Iranian leader nationalized the resources and Britaina and america to some extent i beleive overthrew hima nd installed the pro western tryant known as the Shah. Democeracy to you people is irrevelant, when you ally with a country its only a marriage of convenience. Hugo Chavez natioalized Venezuela's Oil from a foreign giant, he almost got thrown out of power from a coup d'etat which is beleived to have had Western backers. Un like the prime minister of Iran who nationalized the gas fields he stayed in power and perservered and now he has come to bite america in the asss. Its not about democracy point is. Its just a marriage of convenience the people are irrevelant. I have onother example of Guatmela too but i need to get a referesher on those events. They have not been found, but that does not prove they didn't exist. Jimmy Hoffa has not been found either. Neither has Bin Laden. Did they ever exist? LOL. C'mon wheres the evidence? If there were Weapons of Mass destruction and Yellow cake Uranium like bush weas talking about before the war then there would surely be some sort of evidence to support it, maybe a whistelblower mabe some documents and maybe better yet some actual WMDS!!!!! NO nada. Its widely accepted that their were no weapons of mass Desctructions. If you listen closely to bush you will notice him and his Aides are no longer using the WMD'S excuse for invading Iraq. Remember when he invaded Iraq in that video? "We are invading Iraq to disarm Saddam Hussein from his WMD's" or something like that. If there was any substence to that bull shit from Bush then he would be still be talking about WMD's and how he nearly avoided WW3 or something. But no bush is using different excuses, he retired the WMD excuse because it has been descridited. There is no ample evidence to suggest his claims at all. Now bush talks about Freeing the iraqies from the tryant Hussein. See? He is a politican all excuses. You cant trust em. Might they have ever had them again? They were developing nuclear weapons until Israel destroyed their factory. They had a history of working on WMD's and using them for terrorism. Is a suicide bomber government with WMD propensity a threat? Of course it is. Dude when Iraq had its Nuclear Program it was supported by various Western Governments like Norway, Italy and France they all provided Iraq with the cababilities and Materials to develop a Nuclear Program. It's not like Iraq was being hush hush about it. At the time I think Iraq was on good terms with the USA and that they may have had purchased some material support from the USA i think. If the west was all afraid of Iraq then they would never have let iraq buy the capabilities. There's no proof that Iraq was trying to make Nukes either. Israel was not wondering if Iraq is trying to get Nuclear Power or trying to get Nuclear Weapons. They did not and do not want an Arab country to have even Nuclear Facilities because it could come back and bite them in the Ass some day not neccesarily that Iraq was at the time developing nuclear potential for the purpouse of Weapons.. It was widely assumed Iraq was doing it for energy purpouses though. On the other hand we have Israel my friend. Israe, israel... Your country actually tried to stop israel from developing Nuclear Facillities in the 50's i beleive but Israel was able to get some materials from Britain i think. Why was your country more worried about israels nuclear program at the time of its contruction then Iraq's which they had no qualms about at the time? You need to reread what I wrote. I have told you at least fifteen times that a democracy where all religions are treated equally is the only legitimate form of goverment. It is you who disagrees with that. I consider the Bulk of israels population to be colonists. Not necesarily every jew but i do consider the European population of Israel to be colonists(not the arab jews). Its plain as day they are colonizing the West Bank they are demolishing homes to make way for encroashing jewish settlements. Even settlers are going out now and creating "outposts" which israel itself considers illegal but they are only half heartidly stoping those. Anyway all i want is the deportation of all Ashekanazies and people of European Descent from Palestine . I know its ethnic cleaning but an eye for an eye right?? Again, read what I actually wrote. I don't know how many times I need to tell you that Israel should be a democracy where all relgions are treated equally and citizens are treated as individuals. That is the only fair way of doing things, and you cannot right the past by repeating a different version of the same wrong. And im telling you that Israel was a country founded on land with majority arabs. they created a jewish state on land they knew had arabs as the majority then the very nature of this state is founded on ethnic cleaning and racial and relegious discrimination of Arabs. Israel needs to be disssolved and have a "fresh start". Maybe a bi national state maybe an arab only state. did the children who were born in Israel do to deserve the awful things you wish on them? What did the adults who were born in Israel do to deserve it? (I have asked you those two questions many times, and you have yet to answer them. I really want to know what you have to say to them.) They are not a single mind. That is where you are dangerously wrong. As long as people in the Middle East see things the way you are preaching them, the Middle East is going to be a clusterfuck of mindless tragedy. The only solutions are democracy of equality and recognition of individuality. The absence of those will result in nothing but a perpetual nightmare. The children who were born in israel were conceived and sired by Usurpers they were born on ill goten land they themselves are Usurpers. I dont care where they were born, they are all Usurpers and must be expelled to their true homelands. Thats my opinion only. Equality can only be achieved once the concept of a jewish state is finished and that the israelies realise they are Usurpers and must recognize their claim to the land is only secondary and that arabs hold the true right to the land. The 1948 immigrants and the vast majority of the people who live there now ARE NOT THE SAME PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!! Your deeply rooted prejudice is giving you the illusion that they are. They are not! Yes you are right. (I think)More then 60% of Israels jewish population only dates back to after 1948(the formation of Israel) For example in the 1990's Israel took in atleast a million Soviet Immigrants. And Israels Sefardie and Mizrahi population basically came after 1948 (look up jewish exodus from arab lands). And today the Sefardie and Mizrahi community form about 30-40% of Israels jewish population. Yes, they are nation of Colonists. The south African colonists couldn't ignore the much larger black population and even though the israelies have been able to create an artifical Jewish majority for a time right now the population of arabs and jews is basically on par the only difference is most of the Arabs are kept in open air prisons. Almost 2 million Arabs living in Squalor in Gaza. and 3-4 million Arabs in the West Bank who have no freedom of movement or self- determination in their own lands because of the occupation and the illegal settlers. What that basically means is that you have something to hide. You think two year olds who live in Israel deserve to be blown up while riding a bus just because they belong to a large group you hate, and you think that even though you were never able to tell me specifically what good results from it. With all due respect, that is the mentality of a terrorist. I am not out of line in asking if you are a member of a terrorist organization when that is what you preach. Umm no im not trying to hide anything. I just don't want to give away personal info on why i think the way i do. I think the Arab ppl are in the right so i suppor the ppl who i think are right. thats all there's to it. Well at least you call the 9/11 attacks "a shame", but you do support what Hezbollah does to innocent Israelis. The fact of the matter is that you support a terrorist group that targets the innocent out of pure "get even with THEM" even though nothing good results from it. Hezbollah came to be in Southern Lebanon, Interestingly enough the thing that Hezbollah grew from was Occupation. The israeli ocupation of Southern Lebanon is what gave rise to the organazation we call Hezbollah. Ever since Hezbollah kept on fighting Israel, they are the only entity in the Middle East that has been able to kick israel off arab land without a peace treaty. (war of '06). One mans terrorist is onothers freedom fighter. Israel needs to be a country where Muslims and Jews can live together equally and share what they both think is the "holy land". Any Israeli arrangement other than that is guaranteed disaster. So a BI-National state is what you're getting at? "EDIT' Sorry for spelling but i don't feel like going back and fixing it...

[Universal Mind]

In the UN-likely event that Bin Ladens demands could be met by the USA Gov atleast the demans of substance then im sure he would comprise on the issues regarding lifestyle. In onothe thread i was just reading a bit ago there was this koran thing that said "strike terror into the heart of the non beleivers lest they incline towards peace" or something like that... Think about it for a sec man! The Koran also says to kill nonbelievers for being nonbelievers, and Bin Laden's letter says what it says. Ya well anyone can support "terrorists". Your country has a history of supporting Guerrillas in Latin America, Guerrilllas like FARC which some countries consider terrorist organazations. During the Lebanese Civil War Israel armed and supported Maronite "terrorists" to help destabilize the country further and inrease the sectarian divide. For all you know any country could have the possibility of arming "terrorists". Thats not a good enough excuse. The Hussein regime was an enemy terrorist organization that did not merely use mercenaries for things as important as defeating the Soviet Union. They provided financial incentives specifically for suicide bombings against Israel, funded terrorist groups specifically for their terrorist purposes, and used WMD's in a terrorist attack on the Kurds. That is how they did things, and they saw us as their bitter enemy. You can't tell me that that was not a big problem. LOL you guys didn't give a shit about the Kurds and you still don't. Excuses excuses. America support rogue countries when its conventient and you betray them when its conventient. Do we need to talk about the word "support" again? You need to know the difference between having an alliance against a common enemy and actually supporting the evil deeds of a government. You talk about them as if they are the same thing. Also, even if you want to tell yourself we never cared about the Kurds, you are talking off point. The Hussein regime's terrorist attack against them showed what kind of government the Hussein regime was. They were a threat. That is the point, and you cannot realistically deny it. How did the Problem with Iran come about? Wester Imperialism. I know its a dum word but its true. America and Britian and Israel even supported the tyrant known as the Shah. Britain (and if im not wrong america to some extent)overthrew the democracticly elected government of Iran. Why? Because he nationalized his countries petrol and gas resources and took the fate of the country away from a Britisih Company called British Petroleum know called "Beyound Petroleum" I'm sure you've seen their commercials. Anyway the Iranian leader nationalized the resources and Britaina and america to some extent i beleive overthrew hima nd installed the pro western tryant known as the Shah. Democeracy to you people is irrevelant, when you ally with a country its only a marriage of convenience. The leader we overthrew had Soviet ties, and we had to win the Cold War. So what you are saying was a dis on democracy was actually part of the ultimate act of preserving democracy. Does the Soviet Union rule Canada? No. We ended their existence, and taking out their partners in Soviet expansion was part of the plan, which was a plan that worked. Hugo Chavez natioalized Venezuela's Oil from a foreign giant, he almost got thrown out of power from a coup d'etat which is beleived to have had Western backers. Un like the prime minister of Iran who nationalized the gas fields he stayed in power and perservered and now he has come to bite america in the asss. Its not about democracy point is. Its just a marriage of convenience the people are irrevelant. I have onother example of Guatmela too but i need to get a referesher on those events. What does Chavez have to do with democracy, and what did the U.S. government itself have to do with a coup against him? The United States has done more to create and preserve world democracy than any other country in history. Your freedom to say what you say on the internet is a result of that. LOL. C'mon wheres the evidence? If there were Weapons of Mass destruction and Yellow cake Uranium like bush weas talking about before the war then there would surely be some sort of evidence to support it, maybe a whistelblower mabe some documents and maybe better yet some actual WMDS!!!!! NO nada. Its widely accepted that their were no weapons of mass Desctructions. If you listen closely to bush you will notice him and his Aides are no longer using the WMD'S excuse for invading Iraq. Remember when he invaded Iraq in that video? "We are invading Iraq to disarm Saddam Hussein from his WMD's" or something like that. If there was any substence to that bull shit from Bush then he would be still be talking about WMD's and how he nearly avoided WW3 or something. But no bush is using different excuses, he retired the WMD excuse because it has been descridited. There is no ample evidence to suggest his claims at all. Now bush talks about Freeing the iraqies from the tryant Hussein. See? He is a politican all excuses. You cant trust em. Our CIA, Senate, and previous presidential administration. Five other goverments. Officials at the U.N. Hussein's noncompliance with inspections. You call that non-evidence? The fact that we have not found the weapons is not proof that they never existed. We acted responsibly on information that came from many sources. Did Usama Bin Laden ever exist? Please give me his address. Bush does not talk about WMD's now because they have not been found and the Hussein regime no longer exists. Dude when Iraq had its Nuclear Program it was supported by various Western Governments like Norway, Italy and France they all provided Iraq with the cababilities and Materials to develop a Nuclear Program. It's not like Iraq was being hush hush about it. At the time I think Iraq was on good terms with the USA and that they may have had purchased some material support from the USA i think. If the west was all afraid of Iraq then they would never have let iraq buy the capabilities. There's no proof that Iraq was trying to make Nukes either. Israel was not wondering if Iraq is trying to get Nuclear Power or trying to get Nuclear Weapons. They did not and do not want an Arab country to have even Nuclear Facilities because it could come back and bite them in the Ass some day not neccesarily that Iraq was at the time developing nuclear potential for the purpouse of Weapons.. It was widely assumed Iraq was doing it for energy purpouses though. On the other hand we have Israel my friend. Israe, israel... Your country actually tried to stop israel from developing Nuclear Facillities in the 50's i beleive but Israel was able to get some materials from Britain i think. Why was your country more worried about israels nuclear program at the time of its contruction then Iraq's which they had no qualms about at the time? The Hussein regime became much more of a threat when they became our enemy. Think really hard about why that may be. I consider the Bulk of israels population to be colonists. Not necesarily every jew but i do consider the European population of Israel to be colonists(not the arab jews). Its plain as day they are colonizing the West Bank they are demolishing homes to make way for encroashing jewish settlements. Even settlers are going out now and creating "outposts" which israel itself considers illegal but they are only half heartidly stoping those. Anyway all i want is the deportation of all Ashekanazies and people of European Descent from Palestine . I know its ethnic cleaning but an eye for an eye right?? ONCE AGAIN.... Every person is an individual. You are not getting revenge on the 1948 settlers by killing today's five year olds. I don't know how to shake you out of your view that they are all one superorganism with a single mind. Individuality... Explore the concept. Now please answer my question... Why do children who were born in Israel deserve to die? You have obsessively dodged that question. And im telling you that Israel was a country founded on land with majority arabs. they created a jewish state on land they knew had arabs as the majority then the very nature of this state is founded on ethnic cleaning and racial and relegious discrimination of Arabs. Israel needs to be disssolved and have a "fresh start". Maybe a bi national state maybe an arab only state. Fuck all prejudiced bullshit forms of government that favor one religion over others. It is not legitimate government. Democracy of equality is the only way. I know that Israel is not quite all the way there. They need to be. I wish you would get it out of your head that all Israeli Jews are a single organism and that all Arabs in the region are a single organsim. They are not. You sound just like KKK members talking about black and white people. Individuality is never acknowledged by the KKK. They talk about the white race as if it is one person and the black race as if it is one person. That is the type of thinking you are showing. The children who were born in israel were conceived and sired by Usurpers they were born on ill goten land they themselves are Usurpers. I dont care where they were born, they are all Usurpers and must be expelled to their true homelands. Thats my opinion only. Equality can only be achieved once the concept of a jewish state is finished and that the israelies realise they are Usurpers and must recognize their claim to the land is only secondary and that arabs hold the true right to the land. I don't believe in a "Jewish" state either, but what you want to do is just as unjust as what happened to Arabs in Israel in 1948. I can assure you that the conflict will continue as long as enough people think in the group terms you think in. You have no idea how much I wish all Muslims and Jews in the Middle East could understand that. The situation reminds me of a dog chasing its tail. It is so fucking absurd. Now tell me why you think Israeli children deserve to die. Yes you are right. (I think)More then 60% of Israels jewish population only dates back to after 1948(the formation of Israel) For example in the 1990's Israel took in atleast a million Soviet Immigrants. And Israels Sefardie and Mizrahi population basically came after 1948 (look up jewish exodus from arab lands). And today the Sefardie and Mizrahi community form about 30-40% of Israels jewish population. Yes, they are nation of Colonists. The south African colonists couldn't ignore the much larger black population and even though the israelies have been able to create an artifical Jewish majority for a time right now the population of arabs and jews is basically on par the only difference is most of the Arabs are kept in open air prisons. Almost 2 million Arabs living in Squalor in Gaza. and 3-4 million Arabs in the West Bank who have no freedom of movement or self- determination in their own lands because of the occupation and the illegal settlers. 60%? I seriously doubt it. 1948 was 60 years ago. What exactly do you have against my idea of a democracy where all religions are treated equally? Why are you so stuck in the one religion versus another idea? Don't you want that shit to end? Umm no im not trying to hide anything. I just don't want to give away personal info on why i think the way i do. I think the Arab ppl are in the right so i suppor the ppl who i think are right. thats all there's to it. Then keep hiding it. Hezbollah came to be in Southern Lebanon, Interestingly enough the thing that Hezbollah grew from was Occupation. The israeli ocupation of Southern Lebanon is what gave rise to the organazation we call Hezbollah. Ever since Hezbollah kept on fighting Israel, they are the only entity in the Middle East that has been able to kick israel off arab land without a peace treaty. (war of '06). One mans terrorist is onothers freedom fighter. One man's freedom fighter is another man's prejudiced moron who needs to come out of the stone age and learn about democracy and equality. So a BI-National state is what you're getting at? No, I am talking about a secular government where all innocent individuals are equal. Government and religion do not mix.

[Dreamworld]

Don't underestimate Bin Laden.

[Universal Mind]

Don't underestimate Bin Laden. What exactly are you saying?

[Dreamworld]

What exactly are you saying? He is a genius, who simply uses his smarts for his own cause. Al-Queda has been alive longer than the Nazi regime. Their new form of secretcy and terrorism makes them known all over the world. He is certainly not primitive minded.

[Universal Mind]

He is a genius, who simply uses his smarts for his own cause. Al-Queda has been alive longer than the Nazi regime. Their new form of secretcy and terrorism makes them known all over the world. He is certainly not primitive minded. What countries has Bin Laden ever taken over? How long has the world's oldest street gang been around? A person who buys into what Bin Laden believes and wants to kill people for not believing his religion and for having the same nationality as "infidels" in the "holy land" is primitive minded. Living in caves is just icing on the cake.

[dragonoverlord]

The Hussein regime was an enemy terrorist organization that did not merely use mercenaries for things as important as defeating the Soviet Union. They provided financial incentives specifically for suicide bombings against Israel, funded terrorist groups specifically for their terrorist purposes, and used WMD's in a terrorist attack on the Kurds. That is how they did things, and they saw us as their bitter enemy. You can't tell me that that was not a big problem. Ya the last time they used WMD's on the Kurds? In the late 80's right? If that was a big deal for the USA you guys would have used you're good diplomatic relations with Iraq at the time to alleviate the situation for the kurds. The truth is Iraq was not an imminent threat to anyone at all there was no imminent catastrophy at that point in time. Nothing sitting down and talking couldn't have fixed with time. The US approach was just ended up destabilizing a whole country and costing loads of unnecesary Iraqi and American casulaties. Furthermore I beleive the UN said their would be consequences for non compliance(which did happend) and that those consequences would be determined by the UN not by any country but by the UN!. Do we need to talk about the word "support" again? You need to know the difference between having an alliance against a common enemy and actually supporting the evil deeds of a government. You talk about them as if they are the same thing. Also, even if you want to tell yourself we never cared about the Kurds, you are talking off point. The Hussein regime's terrorist attack against them showed what kind of government the Hussein regime was. They were a threat. That is the point, and you cannot realistically deny it. A threat but not by any means an imminent threat as in they were not openly threatening war with any other country nor was a confrontation with a nighbouring country expected. The leader we overthrew had Soviet ties, and we had to win the Cold War. So what you are saying was a dis on democracy was actually part of the ultimate act of preserving democracy. Does the Soviet Union rule Canada? No. We ended their existence, and taking out their partners in Soviet expansion was part of the plan, which was a plan that worked. In that day and age Iran shared a border with the Soviet Union and Iran and the Soviet Union were the only two countries to have a coastline on the "Caspian Sea". Its not unreasonable to assume that Iran and the Soviet Union would have had a good relationship. and its not un reasonable to blame them for having one since Russia was a huge potential exporter/importer of Iranian goods. Excuseme, dissing democracy? Britain and the US overthrew a democractically elected government and replaced it with a brutal tryant and im the one who is dissing democracy? The fact is Mossadeq was democractically elected. You talk about the USA wanting to protect democracy. Your country went to extreme lenghts to arm and aide israel because they were a "democracy". Why not Irans (at the time) fledgling democracy? Why did you guys have to overthrow him and put in a dictator if protecting democracy was you're aim? You could have done a number of things to foster a benifital relationship with the Iranian Democracy at the time. Your country could have given them large sums of Money as aide as you have been doing with israel. I have read statistics that claim that America has pumped a trillion dollars into israel so far. Im not sure if its true but if it is surely you could have diverted some of that cash. You could have donated arms to Iran like you have done to israel to help stabilize the countries democracy. You could have brought agricultural producsts at inflated (above market price) prices to help support the countries poor farmers, You could have exported below markter price (cheaper)food items to Iran to help make food cheaper. an example of this would be Venezuelas relationship with Cuba. Venezuela sells Cuba Petrol at below market price because Cuba can't afford to pay the Regular market price and Venezuela exports petrol at cheaper (below market price) to Cuba to help keep gas as cheap as possible for Cubans. The USA and Britain could have bolstered and strenghtened Irans democracy in any number of ways instead of overthrowing him, i gave a few suggestions myself above. All that did was exasterbate anti western sentiment in the region. Now why did they overthrew him. The UK had a monoply of sorts over gas/oil fields in Iran (in the persian gulf). Iran derived little profit from their most important resource and in turn Britain made lots of profit from it. I beleive Mosadeq tried to negotiate with Britain but the negotiations disintergrated and he nationalized the Oil putting the countries most important resource back into Iranian and out of foreign hands. It was at this point that Britain enlisted the USA and together they ousted him from power. Mosadeq is widely viewedd today as an anti imperialist and the coup d'etat is widely regarded as an act of imperialsm. A similar fate happend to Guatemala when they tried to nationalize their most important resource and Railyway. The excuse ofcourse was an assertion of Soviet ties which if im not wrong turned out to be propaganda. Anyway im not an export on the Guatemala and UFCo situation. What does Chavez have to do with democracy, and what did the U.S. government itself have to do with a coup against him? The United States has done more to create and preserve world democracy than any other country in history. Your freedom to say what you say on the internet is a result of that. OK i admit that is true. The USA has. For example that thread i made about the American govs report. If the USA was in control of Palestine at the time the Americans would have allowed the arabs to have self determination and choose their own fate rather then the british option which has produced chaous. Alleged involement of the USA in attempted coup I personally beleive there was american involvement in the attempted Coup in Venezuela just like there was in Irans coup and Guatemalas. Our CIA, Senate, and previous presidential administration. Five other goverments. Officials at the U.N. Hussein's noncompliance with inspections. You call that non-evidence? The fact that we have not found the weapons is not proof that they never existed. We acted responsibly on information that came from many sources. Did Usama Bin Laden ever exist? Please give me his address. That is not in itself evidence of WMD's. If there were said WMD'S in iraq then surely there would be a whistel blower or some documents discovered in Iraq? If someoen in iraq had knowledge of Weapons of Masss destruction you guys would of had it by now...but not. You have n't found it and you haven't had any credible sources that can lead you to any definitive proof. Bush does not talk about WMD's now because they have not been found and the Hussein regime no longer exists. haven't you heard any of bushes speeches? Iraq had to be free of that tryant dictator and the iraqy people had to be freed". What you should be paying attention is to what he is not saying. He is not talking about weapons of mass destruction. If he had any sold proof of the stuff he would have included something about them in his speecheds " the invasion of iraq was neccesary to disarm saddam from his WMD's and free iraq from a tryant" but his speeches now adays dont include talk about WMD's because his excuse feell through the floor. He is a politican trust me he wouldn't stop talking about his success in disarming iraqs WMD's if there were actual WMD's discovered. ONCE AGAIN.... Every person is an individual. You are not getting revenge on the 1948 settlers by killing today's five year olds. I don't know how to shake you out of your view that they are all one superorganism with a single mind. Individuality... Explore the concept. Now please answer my question... Why do children who were born in Israel deserve to die? You have obsessively dodged that question. To answer youre question I don't think israeli children deserve to die at all but i think Palestinians should be able to do whatever need be to free their country from the Usurpers. I don't care if they were born there thats irrevelant to me. YOu can break into my house and lock me in teh closet for 40 years and raise a family with all the children born in my house and still the house is not yours. palestine is like that house in my opinion. [quote=Universal Mind]Fuck all prejudiced bullshit forms of government that favor one religion over others. It is not legitimate government. Democracy of equality is the only way. I know that Israel is not quite all the way there. They need to be. I wish you would get it out of your head that all Israeli Jews are a single organism and that all Arabs in the region are a single organsim. They are not. You sound just like KKK members talking about black and white people. Individuality is never acknowledged by the KKK. They talk about the white race as if it is one person and the black race as if it is one person. That is the type of thinking you are showing. [QUOTE] Umm no im not a white or arab supremacist at all. I don't think one race is superior over onother and such an idea is just ludicruous. I think the palestinians need to reclam their homeland thats all. I don't believe in a "Jewish" state either, but what you want to do is just as unjust as what happened to Arabs in Israel in 1948. I can assure you that the conflict will continue as long as enough people think in the group terms you think in. You have no idea how much I wish all Muslims and Jews in the Middle East could understand that. The situation reminds me of a dog chasing its tail. It is so fucking absurd. How can people stop thinking in group terms? The region is divided relegiously,racially and lingustiically lots of Israeli arabs dont speak Hebrew and lots of Israeli jews dont speak Arabic.And plus the communities tend to live apart in different municipalities although there are exceptions like Jerusalem and Haifa and even then its divided by nighbourhoods or "ghettos" if you wanna call them that. Its all sepereated by group. Its not like in the USA where you have lots of mixed neighbourhoods. IN Palestine/israel there is not much group interaction socially at all. Actually i heard from an israeli jew that the relationship between jews and arabs is that of master over slave. But to be fair the israeli jew is on the arab side so hes probably biased. 60%? I seriously doubt it. 1948 was 60 years ago. I meant to say something like 60% plus of israelies have a FAMILY HISTORY of only 60 or so years at the most in the region. Ok lets calculate that again ok. S'fardie and Mizrahi jews only make up about 30-45 percent of Israels population. they only date back for the most part to after israels inception, look up Jewish exodus from arab lands again and you will know what im talking about. In the 1990's Israel received atleast 1 million soviet immigrants. So there we have it atelast 50 percent probably more of Israeli jews only have a family history of atleast 60 or so years in the region. You can't argue with numbers. What exactly do you have against my idea of a democracy where all religions are treated equally? Why are you so stuck in the one religion versus another idea? Don't you want that shit to end? Keep on dreaming not gonna happen. One man's freedom fighter is another man's prejudiced moron who needs to come out of the stone age and learn about democracy and equality. UMMMM NO.

[Universal Mind]

Ya the last time they used WMD's on the Kurds? In the late 80's right? If that was a big deal for the USA you guys would have used you're good diplomatic relations with Iraq at the time to alleviate the situation for the kurds. Their history plus the fact that they became our enemy amounted to the threat. Whether we did everything we could for the Kurds is completely off point. The Hussein regime showed what kind of government they are and then turned on us. That was a big problem. I don't think they would have made friends with the Kurds as result of any persuasion from us. The truth is Iraq was not an imminent threat to anyone at all there was no imminent catastrophy at that point in time. Nothing sitting down and talking couldn't have fixed with time. The US approach was just ended up destabilizing a whole country and costing loads of unnecesary Iraqi and American casulaties. Furthermore I beleive the UN said their would be consequences for non compliance(which did happend) and that those consequences would be determined by the UN not by any country but by the UN!. Sitting down and talking? They wouldn't even comply with weapons inspections. They violated our ceasefire for twelve years. Do you really think a conversation would have gotten that suicide bomb government's middle fingers out of our faces? A threat but not by any means an imminent threat as in they were not openly threatening war with any other country nor was a confrontation with a nighbouring country expected. We had just been attacked. We obviously had an enemy that wanted to target large numbers of our civilians. The Hussein regime was a government that, based on the intelligence we had, could have given Al Qaeda or a similar terrorist organization WMD's for such terrorist attacks. Even if they couldn't right then, they could have at some point. We wanted to go ahead and get rid of that threat because it looked imminent and was definitely there. Plus there are lots of other reasons for the invasion of Iraq. A threat but not by any means an imminent threat as in they were not openly threatening war with any other country nor was a confrontation with a nighbouring country expected. People have to make announcements to be an imminent threat? Al Qaeda didn't make any announcements about what they were about to do. In that day and age Iran shared a border with the Soviet Union and Iran and the Soviet Union were the only two countries to have a coastline on the "Caspian Sea". Its not unreasonable to assume that Iran and the Soviet Union would have had a good relationship. and its not un reasonable to blame them for having one since Russia was a huge potential exporter/importer of Iranian goods. Things were much more serious than just that. It went beyond just having a good relationship. It was about support of the Soviet cause. That was dangerous stuff. I am not sure how it should have been handled, but we were fighting Soviet expansion, which is one of the two biggest threats the world has ever faced, and maybe sometimes the U.S. government went overboard in handling it. Hindsight is 20/20, and we had possibly the most serious situation ever to handle. Even if the overthrow was not the best possible move, it was still done with the intention of preserving the bigger picture of democracy. That ultimate goal was accomplished. Excuseme, dissing democracy? Britain and the US overthrew a democractically elected government and replaced it with a brutal tryant and im the one who is dissing democracy? The fact is Mossadeq was democractically elected. I just cleared that up. You talk about the USA wanting to protect democracy. Your country went to extreme lenghts to arm and aide israel because they were a "democracy". Why not Irans (at the time) fledgling democracy? Why did you guys have to overthrow him and put in a dictator if protecting democracy was you're aim? You could have done a number of things to foster a benifital relationship with the Iranian Democracy at the time. Your country could have given them large sums of Money as aide as you have been doing with israel. I have read statistics that claim that America has pumped a trillion dollars into israel so far. Im not sure if its true but if it is surely you could have diverted some of that cash. You could have donated arms to Iran like you have done to israel to help stabilize the countries democracy. You could have brought agricultural producsts at inflated (above market price) prices to help support the countries poor farmers, You could have exported below markter price (cheaper)food items to Iran to help make food cheaper. an example of this would be Venezuelas relationship with Cuba. Venezuela sells Cuba Petrol at below market price because Cuba can't afford to pay the Regular market price and Venezuela exports petrol at cheaper (below market price) to Cuba to help keep gas as cheap as possible for Cubans. The USA and Britain could have bolstered and strenghtened Irans democracy in any number of ways instead of overthrowing him, i gave a few suggestions myself above. All that did was exasterbate anti western sentiment in the region. Now why did they overthrew him. The UK had a monoply of sorts over gas/oil fields in Iran (in the persian gulf). Iran derived little profit from their most important resource and in turn Britain made lots of profit from it. I beleive Mosadeq tried to negotiate with Britain but the negotiations disintergrated and he nationalized the Oil putting the countries most important resource back into Iranian and out of foreign hands. It was at this point that Britain enlisted the USA and together they ousted him from power. Mosadeq is widely viewedd today as an anti imperialist and the coup d'etat is widely regarded as an act of imperialsm. A similar fate happend to Guatemala when they tried to nationalize their most important resource and Railyway. The excuse ofcourse was an assertion of Soviet ties which if im not wrong turned out to be propaganda. Anyway im not an export on the Guatemala and UFCo situation. You are harping on that one situation way too much. There is a major U.S. Cold War rationale for the overthrow of Mosadeq. You assume it was propagana, and I don't. Like I said, the Cold War was one of the two most serious situations the human race has ever faced. I am sure the government went out of bounds a few times in that severely important struggle. It is inevitable in every war. Stopping the Soviet Union was not easy. OK i admit that is true. The USA has. For example that thread i made about the American govs report. If the USA was in control of Palestine at the time the Americans would have allowed the arabs to have self determination and choose their own fate rather then the british option which has produced chaous. Alleged involement of the USA in attempted coup I personally beleive there was american involvement in the attempted Coup in Venezuela just like there was in Irans coup and Guatemalas. Why do you keep talking about the overthrows of corrupt leaders during the Cold War? The Cold War was our ultimate act of preserving democracy. Taking a microscope and looking for Cold War moves where governments got worse treatment than they should have does not disprove our ultimate goal in the Cold War. That is not in itself evidence of WMD's. If there were said WMD'S in iraq then surely there would be a whistel blower or some documents discovered in Iraq? If someoen in iraq had knowledge of Weapons of Masss destruction you guys would of had it by now...but not. You have n't found it and you haven't had any credible sources that can lead you to any definitive proof. We did have credible sources. Very few people in the Hussein regime would have had knowledge of their location. It took major snooping from the intelligence agencies of six governments and the U.N. to get the information. The people who know where the WMD's are now are either dead or refuse to talk. haven't you heard any of bushes speeches? Iraq had to be free of that tryant dictator and the iraqy people had to be freed". What you should be paying attention is to what he is not saying. He is not talking about weapons of mass destruction. If he had any sold proof of the stuff he would have included something about them in his speecheds " the invasion of iraq was neccesary to disarm saddam from his WMD's and free iraq from a tryant" but his speeches now adays dont include talk about WMD's because his excuse feell through the floor. He is a politican trust me he wouldn't stop talking about his success in disarming iraqs WMD's if there were actual WMD's discovered. It is a fact that six governments and officials at the U.N. reported the intelligence. The WMD's have not been found, the Hussein regime no longer exists, and Saddam Hussein is dead. Why would Bush need to talk about them now? Until he comes up with a plan to dig up the whole desert area of the Middle East and Northeast Africa, Bush has no reason to talk about WMD's. To answer youre question I don't think israeli children deserve to die at all but i think Palestinians should be able to do whatever need be to free their country from the Usurpers. I don't care if they were born there thats irrevelant to me. YOu can break into my house and lock me in teh closet for 40 years and raise a family with all the children born in my house and still the house is not yours. palestine is like that house in my opinion. So you don't think the children deserve to die, but you do think it is okay for the Palestinians to deliberately target and kill them? Please tell me how that campaign is working out. Have all of these dead children resulted in a Muslim take over of Israel? Umm no im not a white or arab supremacist at all. I don't think one race is superior over onother and such an idea is just ludicruous. I think the palestinians need to reclam their homeland thats all. I didn't say you are a white supremecist or think one race is superior to another. I used an analogy. I am saying you hate an entire group based on their ancestry and do not respect the individuality of the people in the group. You side with one group against another, based on ancestry, and talk as though what some people in one ancestral group do is the behavior of everybody in the group. That is what I am saying is KKK thinking. How can people stop thinking in group terms? The region is divided relegiously,racially and lingustiically lots of Israeli arabs dont speak Hebrew and lots of Israeli jews dont speak Arabic.And plus the communities tend to live apart in different municipalities although there are exceptions like Jerusalem and Haifa and even then its divided by nighbourhoods or "ghettos" if you wanna call them that. Its all sepereated by group. Its not like in the USA where you have lots of mixed neighbourhoods. IN Palestine/israel there is not much group interaction socially at all. Actually i heard from an israeli jew that the relationship between jews and arabs is that of master over slave. But to be fair the israeli jew is on the arab side so hes probably biased. All you are arguing is that too many Jews have group prejudice too. I agree. What you said does not justify hating individuals and wanting to take away their land because of their ancestral group. I meant to say something like 60% plus of israelies have a FAMILY HISTORY of only 60 or so years at the most in the region. Ok lets calculate that again ok. S'fardie and Mizrahi jews only make up about 30-45 percent of Israels population. they only date back for the most part to after israels inception, look up Jewish exodus from arab lands again and you will know what im talking about. In the 1990's Israel received atleast 1 million soviet immigrants. So there we have it atelast 50 percent probably more of Israeli jews only have a family history of atleast 60 or so years in the region. You can't argue with numbers. You aren't going to calculate in the number of 1948 Israelis who are dead now? Keep on dreaming not gonna happen. Then they will always be at war. UMMMM NO. Fighting for Muslim rule cannot possibly under any circumstances be a fight for freedom. The two ideas contradict each other.

[RedfishBluefish]

Mmmm... No 1 problem: Bin Laden treats civilians as objects. ie You kill 'my' civilians and I kill 'yours'. No 2 problem: Reversed logic. ie "The American military is an enemy of Islam, and the American military are Americans, therefore all Americans are enemies of Islam" The children who were born in Israel were conceived and sired by Usurpers they were born on ill gotten land they themselves are Usurpers. I don't care where they were born, they are all Usurpers and must be expelled to their true homelands. Thats my opinion only. Equality can only be achieved once the concept of a jewish state is finished and that the Israelis realize they are Usurpers and must recognize their claim to the land is only secondary and that Arabs hold the true right to the land. Just like the American claim to their land is secondary and the Indians hold the true right to the land, just like Australian white people and aboriginals, just like Norwegians and vikings, and just like the Arabs and whoever lived "at their homeland" before, right?

[dragonoverlord]

Just like the American claim to their land is secondary and the Indians hold the true right to the land, just like Australian white people and aboriginals, just like Norwegians and vikings, and just like the Arabs and whoever lived "at their homeland" before, right? Let me continue that for you. You metnioned Norwegians. The natives of Scandanavia are the Laplanders i beleive. Present day Scandanavia is populated by people who are descended from North Germanic tribes i beleive. They came over to Scandanavia something like 1000 years ago if im not mistaken. You must be refering to the Arab conquest of North Africa in your mention of Arabs. You might be well aware that the Natives of North Africa are the Berber People. In Mooroco let say there are two groups of people. There are those who call themselves Berbers and there are those who call themselves Arabs. They did some genetic tests of a set of people. One set who refered to themselves as Arabs and onother set who identified as Berbers. They found that there was basically no difference between the genetics or whatever of the Berbers and the Arabs. The study went on to conclude that the Arab conquest of North Africa was mostly CULTURAL and not RACIAL. That is to say the Arab conquesters were absorbed in large part into the Berber population and the change in North Africa was Cultural not racial. Mooroco itself is heavily mixed between berbers and Arabs. I saw some statistics that claimed that 3/4 of Moorocains are Berbers or have Berber blood. I beleive the findings in the study is true of Algeria and Tunisia. I have a feeling this is not true of Libya on the other hand judging by their more "pure" standard of Arabic. In this sense Pure means closer to Middle Eastern Arabic. Several thousand years ago in what is now israel/Palestine the jews were exiled out of the middle east and wandering Nomadic Arab tribes (just like Native american tribes) found their way into the land that was once mostly populated by jews and it was mostly empty of jews because of the Exile forced onto them by the romans many many moons prior. that is the origin of todays Arabs population in the area. An Argument made by zionists is that the jews who live in europe should be able to take Palestine away from the Palestinians because several thousand years ago jews populated the region. Interestingly enough I think the jews who came to the region in the first place were not natives of the place either. the real natives were the Caanites. The Hebrews came to the region themselves as a Wandering Tribe i beleive and then they ransacked the Caanites and eventually mixed with them just like the Arabs in North Africa i mentioned. And Eventually the Hebrews themselves were exiled a few thousand years ago from the area. Today the People of Lebanon and Palestine have the blood of Caanites in them and also there is a signicant amount of Lebanese people who have Crusader Descandants(from the Crusades of dark ages)

[RedfishBluefish]

You mention "real natives". However, assuming evolution to be correct, all humanity has one common ancestor, and one "original homeland". All other land was colonized indirectly from there. What I'm trying to get at, really, is that the land belongs to no one group. If someone tries to force you out of your home, sure, you should resist them - but it's wrong to claim certain pieces of land just because one's ancestors lived there. Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't actually know a lot about the whole Israel/Palestine thing. Maybe we need to keep better track of one's possessions: Like if Bob steals something from Alice and gives it to his children without telling them he stole it, then it's passed down through the generations, but it still really belongs to Alice('s descendants) right? But anyway try not to group people together too much - what of someone with both Jewish and Palestinian ancestors?

[dragonoverlord]

You mention "real natives". However, assuming evolution to be correct, all humanity has one common ancestor, and one "original homeland". All other land was colonized indirectly from there. What I'm trying to get at, really, is that the land belongs to no one group. If someone tries to force you out of your home, sure, you should resist them - but it's wrong to claim certain pieces of land just because one's ancestors lived there. Or maybe I'm wrong. I don't actually know a lot about the whole Israel/Palestine thing. Maybe we need to keep better track of one's possessions: Like if Bob steals something from Alice and gives it to his children without telling them he stole it, then it's passed down through the generations, but it still really belongs to Alice('s descendants) right? But anyway try not to group people together too much - what of someone with both Jewish and Palestinian ancestors? "native" is only a relative term i suppose. IN the region of Palestine/Israel who are the real natives? The land switched hands so many times. Caanites, Hebrews,Bedouins, Assyrians, Romans, arabs,Turks(ottomans),Crusaders, British, and now modern day israel. So many groups have called the area home over its history its true in a sense there are no natives. But is it not reasonable to expect that in the 1800's when jews started to immigrate that they at the very LEAST respect the Estabilished Population? Would that not have been to much to ask? In 1948, less then a generation later when they are still for the most part a minority they deman a jewish state carved under arab majority land. That was the ultimate act of disrespect and indifference towards the estabilished arab majority that is in my opinion inexcusable. Answering your other question there are indeed people of Palestinian and Jewish Heritage. They are Palestinian Jews. They have everyright to Palestine as do Palestinian Muslims and Christians. The Palestinian jews have been in Palestine for over a 1000 years. Now i make a distinction between Palestinian jews and Ashakanazie jews(I know this is random but the guy in my avatar is an Ashakanazie jew actually). the Ashekanazie jews are those immigrated from Europe to Palestine, They started to immigrate in large numbers starting in the late 1800's. The Palestinian Jews are so called Natives. They are a very well estabilished population and got along well with the Arabs over the centuries unfortunately Zionism hurt Palestinian arab and Palestinian jew relations very badly and tor the two groups apart whom got along well over the many centuries of co-habitation. Zionism (european immigration) was the straw that broke the camels back.