Thread: What do you think is the best form of government?

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

It's up to you to choose between evil and good. If you actually realize you're doing evil, and you choose to keep doing it, theres no way I can argue.

Any legitimate measure taken in response to this very fucked up situation is going to involve the accidental killing of civilians. Sometimes that is necessary to prevent a far, far greater number of civilian deaths.

WHAT SPECIFICALLY DO YOU SUGGEST WE DO??????

Trust me Chayba, there is nothing I would like than to engage terrorists in an open battlefield without civilians. Is that evil?

Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

What argument? The fact that killing innocent people is wrong? Yea, no shit. I'm not dissagreeing with that.

Forget Iraq. Are you saying we should have never taken any military action in response to the attacks on our civilians?

Now prove to me I am brainwashed.

Haha sorry for souding so harsh. You're definitelly better to talk to than UM.

As I've already said to UM, I'm completely against any form of war. But it was US' right to attack Iraq at first. At first. Now the thing's getting ridiculous.

Originally Posted by Sagea

Erm... And what are you doing?

I sincerely don't get your point here. I think UM has a problem differing constitutional monarchy and dictatorship. He went on saying that everyone could be corrupted and it would become totalitarism. That was my point. Anything can go wrong - just like capitalism does in many countries, where personal interest is stronger than the whole State.

And also, the difference between communism and capitalism is capitalism makes good use of greed, a natural thing, while communism punishes you for it. Oh... And everyone says communism would be perfect... if it worked. In other words, it doesn't work, so it's not perfect. Simple logic and reasoning right there.

Sincerely, I don't think there's good use of greed in capitalism. There is use of greed. What prevents that greed from driving things too far? State intervention. Heh. That's where my Constitutional Monarchy fits in.

And I agree that communism doesn't work for human beings. That's what I said from the beginning. UM was the one who kept on bitchying about it.

And anyone who thinks we don't have a real terrorism problem or that it's an excuse, talk to my dad who saw over 200 killed in the Korean embassy bombing of 98. An old lady tried to give him her dead baby to take care of (shows how everyone in the world hates the U.S., huh,), among many other horrors.

I don't say terrorism is only an excuse, but it is an excuse. If there was no economical interest in Iraq, your country would have left it years ago. What you wanted to do's been done.

I do not doubt the good of americans, no I don't. But when I hear the words "sexism", "conservative", "ignorance", "racism" and "personal interest", all I can think of is the US (of course there are many good exceptions). Economically, structurally, and technologically, US is great. Socially? Not. Fix the social problems and then you may go and say you're the best country in the world. Right now you're pretty much broken. It doesn't matter if you have all the money in the world, if living in your country sucks.

Originally Posted by Kromoh

Haha sorry for souding so harsh. You're definitelly better to talk to than UM.

Do you really want to keep this going? You wouldn't answer my questions. Stop whining.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

But Scotland isn't a dictatorship..

When I said my society, I meant my ideal totalitarian society such as the one in the book starship troopers, not the society in my country.

[X] Humanist libertarian direct democracy

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

Any legitimate measure taken in response to this very fucked up situation is going to involve the accidental killing of civilians. Sometimes that is necessary to prevent a far, far greater number of civilian deaths.

WHAT SPECIFICALLY DO YOU SUGGEST WE DO??????

I suggest you don't punish and kill random people for a small group of Taliban.

Just think about it.

Civilians can't move to another country to escape the war.
The taliban, can easily move to another country to escape the war.

The civilians are fucked.
The taliban goes free.

You really think the Taliban didn't know you were coming?! You truly believe the taliban had no clue? And they were just waiting for you to come and kill them?!

You got the wrong people. Obviously. Where the fuck is Osama Bin Laden? You're chasing ghosts man.

Don't you see? War will always cause the innocent people to die, and the true evil people to live? The people in power can easily escape the war, the innocent people can't escape the war because thats where they fcking live. They have nowhere to go. They are truly fucked.

Let me ask you a very simple question, how do you tell a terrorist apart from a civilian? The picture you have in your head of a terrorist, is how every single man in Iraq looks like. And aren't terrorist capable of disguising themselves in civilians? If you see a civilian, how will you decide wether it's a terrorist or a civilian? If you wait until he shoots on you, it's too late. If you shoot first, you have killed an innocent person. So, in order to save your life when you're in Iraq, you're forced to kill innocent people all the time. You have no way of knowing who is a terrorist and who is a civilian. Your buddies are dying, losing limbs, and you are going insane of paranoia, and will shoot every single suspicious human being you will encounter. And at one point, you won't care anymoer for anything, you will get horny because you don't have your gf and you will start to rape women. This is war. This is what you choose for. Pure evil is inevitable.

The only true terrorist on this world is America. This is how you will go into the history books. The world is not blind. One day America will be so stupid to try and invade China, this will be the cause of the Third World War. Watch how the news will suddenly start to focus only on China. You are currently in the progress of being brainwashed to invade China, kill innocent chinese people, and rape innocent chinese women.

I didn't ask what NOT to do. You already said plenty about that. I asked you what we SHOULD do.

I already told you what to do. Dont' invade countries. Don't kill random innocent people. Very simple. What you should do instead, is first talk to them. Don't you find it stunning you have no idea why the terrorists are angry at you? Why isn't the goverment telling you that?

And why aren't you answering my questions? You claim to kill terrorists but all you did is killed innocent civilians. You didn't find Osama Bin Laden.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

Let me ask you a very simple question, how do you tell a terrorist apart from a civilian?

I dont like how people who take arms against the occupation are labeled terrorists. Honestly someone invades your countrie blows tons of shit up and you fight back and your a terrorist and an evil islamic extremist all of a sudden. the occupation is the catylst for all thats wrong in Iraq currently. What Iraq needs is to get rid of the foreign occupation which only causes more Iraqies to take up arms against them and leave Iraq the hell alone to do its own business. I read somewhere 70% of the Violence is aimed at the Occupation in some way. If the occupation would go away im sure all that violence wouldn't go away but the main incentive for violence would certainly have disapeard. However i dont doubt the possibility that the violence im talking about would simply disapate, it could perhaps be channeled down Sectarian lines or be used by gangs and militias who are out to gain personal wealth and power sort of like gangs and the Mafia in the West.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

I already told you what to do. Dont' invade countries. Don't kill random innocent people. Very simple. What you should do instead, is first talk to them. Don't you find it stunning you have no idea why the terrorists are angry at you? Why isn't the goverment telling you that?

And why aren't you answering my questions? You claim to kill terrorists but all you did is killed innocent civilians. You didn't find Osama Bin Laden.

We have done all of those things you suggested and more. We have not been targetting civilians, and your point that that is "all" we have done is just way out of touch with reality. Early on, we targetted key government spots, and now we are using our government intelligence to track down terrorist cells. We prefer to capture the terrorists so we can get information from them. If they shoot at us or try to blow us up, and we have to, we kill them. Our goal is to protect the new democracy until it can stand on its own. You don't have the facts on this issue.

Originally Posted by dragonoverlord

I dont like how people who take arms against the occupation are labeled terrorists. Honestly someone invades your countrie blows tons of shit up and you fight back and your a terrorist and an evil islamic extremist all of a sudden. the occupation is the catylst for all thats wrong in Iraq currently. What Iraq needs is to get rid of the foreign occupation which only causes more Iraqies to take up arms against them and leave Iraq the hell alone to do its own business. I read somewhere 70% of the Violence is aimed at the Occupation in some way. If the occupation would go away im sure all that violence wouldn't go away but the main incentive for violence would certainly have disapeard. However i dont doubt the possibility that the violence im talking about would simply disapate, it could perhaps be channeled down Sectarian lines or be used by gangs and militias who are out to gain personal wealth and power sort of like gangs and the Mafia in the West.

Thing is, it's not the Iraqis taking arms against the "occupation" as you call it. They are all foreign fighters who give not one shit about the indigs. The catalyst for everything wrong in the Middle East is the backwards governments and insane religious nuts.

Originally Posted by ChaybaChayba

I suggest you don't punish and kill random people for a small group of Taliban.

Just think about it.

Civilians can't move to another country to escape the war.
The taliban, can easily move to another country to escape the war.

The civilians are fucked.
The taliban goes free.

You really think the Taliban didn't know you were coming?! You truly believe the taliban had no clue? And they were just waiting for you to come and kill them?!

You got the wrong people. Obviously. Where the fuck is Osama Bin Laden? You're chasing ghosts man.

Don't you see? War will always cause the innocent people to die, and the true evil people to live? The people in power can easily escape the war, the innocent people can't escape the war because thats where they fcking live. They have nowhere to go. They are truly fucked.

Let me ask you a very simple question, how do you tell a terrorist apart from a civilian? The picture you have in your head of a terrorist, is how every single man in Iraq looks like. And aren't terrorist capable of disguising themselves in civilians? If you see a civilian, how will you decide wether it's a terrorist or a civilian? If you wait until he shoots on you, it's too late. If you shoot first, you have killed an innocent person. So, in order to save your life when you're in Iraq, you're forced to kill innocent people all the time. You have no way of knowing who is a terrorist and who is a civilian. Your buddies are dying, losing limbs, and you are going insane of paranoia, and will shoot every single suspicious human being you will encounter. And at one point, you won't care anymoer for anything, you will get horny because you don't have your gf and you will start to rape women. This is war. This is what you choose for. Pure evil is inevitable.

The only true terrorist on this world is America. This is how you will go into the history books. The world is not blind. One day America will be so stupid to try and invade China, this will be the cause of the Third World War. Watch how the news will suddenly start to focus only on China. You are currently in the progress of being brainwashed to invade China, kill innocent chinese people, and rape innocent chinese women.

How bout you read The War of the Fleas and learn a little bit about UW and COIN before you pretend to know anything about it? Or just ask a Special Forces soldier how you flush out terrorists. Ever heard of civil action+psy ops+good treatment and helping of indigs=information and turning in of terrorists? You have a lot of fundamentally flawed views there.

Erm and yeah that whole China thing was fucking ridiculous. How am I being brainwashed to hate China? I have not met a single person who does.

Originally Posted by Sagea

The catalyst for everything wrong in the Middle East is the backwards governments and insane religious nuts.

That is the bottom line. Changing that is the best thing we can do.

stupid question, but what exactly does being a libertarian mean?
I know its something about goverment not being involved in ppls personal matters (right)?

im just curious about ppls take on it.

Originally Posted by Starlite

stupid question, but what exactly does being a libertarian mean?
I know its something about goverment not being involved in ppls personal matters (right)?

im just curious about ppls take on it.

Libertarians are very conservative on economics but very liberal on personal freedom issues. They believe in having a very small government with very few laws and in allowing pretty much everything to be privately run without much regulation. I am totally with them on that much, but they also believe in doing pretty much nothing with the military in other countries. That is all I disagree with them on. They want drugs and prostitution to be legal, wich is an example of their very liberal aspect, but they also want to greatly reduce taxes and completely privatize the school system, which is extremely conservative.

thanks.

i think that needs to be an option up there on the voting thingy.

Originally Posted by Starlite

i think that needs to be an option up there on the voting thingy.

Their philosophy comes under the subheading of "representative democracy". Libertarianism is just a specific form of that

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We invaded Afghanistan first. Then we invaded Iraq, but without expecting to find the Taliban there. (Did I really need to explain that to you? )



Oh my God. We do not target innocent people, and by overthrowing the Hussein regime, we took away a government that functioned by killing innocent people. Who brainwashed you?

But our main emphasis was Iraq.. The Government meshed in Iraq with the problem. There are many more countries with oppression other then Iraq. I can list you at least 10 governments that have killed more innocents than Iraq. There was NO direct evidence of nuclear weapons. Why the f**k would you invade a country for nukes, when you had no direct evidence? It was a Neo-Conservative move for a larger imperial status, which had failed.

Who brainwashed you?

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

But our main emphasis was Iraq.. The Government meshed in Iraq with the problem. There are many more countries with oppression other then Iraq. I can list you at least 10 governments that have killed more innocents than Iraq. There was NO direct evidence of nuclear weapons. Why the f**k would you invade a country for nukes, when you had no direct evidence? It was a Neo-Conservative move for a larger imperial status, which had failed.

Who brainwashed you?

The Hussein regime did have a nuclear program history, the list of justifications was much longer than that, and we did not invade Iraq until after overthrowing the Taliban.

Remember that this war has been about a big picture involving many justifications simultaneously. It does not make sense to take just one of the justifications and go, "Well this other country has that. Why don't we invade them?" It is about a big picture, a sum total of many reasons. We are there for the big picture, not any one reason alone.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

The Hussein regime did have a nuclear program history, the list of justifications was much longer than that, and we did not invade Iraq until after overthrowing the Taliban.

Remember that this war has been about a big picture involving many justifications simultaneously. It does not make sense to take just one of the justifications and go, "Well this other country has that. Why don't we invade them?" It is about a big picture, a sum total of many reasons. We are there for the big picture, not any one reason alone.

Big picture? The fundamental reason we were in war with Iraq was because of their nuclear developments. What are the other reasons? They sure didn't bomb the twin towers. Its called Neo-Con. The more you spread and show your power the longer you stay a world power. This philosophy obviously failed.

Originally Posted by Dreamworld

Big picture? The fundamental reason we were in war with Iraq was because of their nuclear developments. What are the other reasons? They sure didn't bomb the twin towers. Its called Neo-Con. The more you spread and show your power the longer you stay a world power. This philosophy obviously failed.

We thought they were working on nuclear weapons, not that they had them, and we were more concerned that they already had other weapons of mass destruction. Still, we don't go afer just any government that has or is working on weapons of mass destruction. The Hussein regime was a terrorist government that had already used WMD's in a terrorist attack, and they were a major enemy of ours. Think about all of that together. Then there were the other reasons I talked about.

Why do you say we are no longer a world power?

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

We thought they were working on nuclear weapons, not that they had them

He is right:

"The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of Uranium from Africa" (State of the Union address, January 2003).

On an unrelated note: I love how 5 people have voted for "Totalitarianism" as their optimum form of government.

Socialism on paper is the best form of economy...lol
Too bad in RL it isn't that great.

anarcho-primitivism, take an anthro class fuckheads. history is way longer than the last 500years