Thread: Independence Day

Originally Posted by Serkat

Uh, no. What you are describing is anarchy, not freedom. The school isn't "free to act upon his exercise and use of that freedom" in whichever way they deem appropriate. Teachers are not law enforcement. Silencing and punishing somebody for saying something are not within the range of what a governmental institution should be doing unless it's about a criminal action.

(I didn't quite get why the kid got sent off, how was he disrespectful? - the guy isn't a good reporter).

He's a minor, and therefore does not have all the rights of a person 18 or older. Also, students also only have limited rights, even if the students are no longer minors and are 18 or older. This has already been established by the Supreme Court.

So, if a teacher tells you to shut up, you'd better do it; otherwise, be a man and face the consequences and take some responsibility for your actions. All I saw in that video was some kid ranting about something he had no knowledge of. Besides, for all we know, the whole scenario could have been made up, or he's only giving us a very skewed view of what happened.

Well, sucks to be American.

Originally Posted by snoop

He's a minor, and therefore does not have all the rights of a person 18 or older. Also, students also only have limited rights, even if the students are no longer minors and are 18 or older. This has already been established by the Supreme Court.

So, if a teacher tells you to shut up, you'd better do it; otherwise, be a man and face the consequences and take some responsibility for your actions. All I saw in that video was some kid ranting about something he had no knowledge of. Besides, for all we know, the whole scenario could have been made up, or he's only giving us a very skewed view of what happened.

Heh, a man huh. So your gonna let the supreme courts tell you what kind of underwear to wear? If I don't, oh boy, I'd better man up and take responsibility for my bad actions.

Originally Posted by snoop

Is that kid in the video for real? All that video proved is that such hypocrisy and ignorance is allowed to exist in this country. Had he been a citizen of a more oppressive country, then he'd have been locked up. Also, freedom comes with responsibility. He was free to keep talking, but the school was equally free to act upon his exercise and use of that freedom.

Are you using sarcasm?
By the way, we're talking about U.S.A. , not other countries.

Originally Posted by malac

Are you using sarcasm?
By the way, we're talking about U.S.A. , not other countries.

Exactly, and since he lives in the U.S.A, he was not locked up or killed for criticizing the government.

Nice point there buddy.

Also, having limited rights as a student is constitutional. Having the Supreme Court tell me what underwear I have to wear (assuming I'm a civilian, and not a soldier, or a law-breaker) is not. Your comparison isn't really valid.

Originally Posted by snoop

Exactly, and since he lives in the U.S.A, he was not locked up or killed for criticizing the government.

Nice point there buddy.

Also, having limited rights as a student is constitutional. Having the Supreme Court tell me what underwear I have to wear (assuming I'm a civilian, and not a soldier, or a law-breaker) is not. Your comparison isn't really valid.

Buddy it very well is valid, understand the concept. Also again, other countries have nothing to do with our situation (thats being discussed). Why relate theirs with ours, it does not take away the problem nor justify it. It does say that they have it worse but merely thats it.

Originally Posted by snoop

Exactly, and since he lives in the U.S.A, he was not locked up or killed for criticizing the government.

Nice point there buddy.

You know, America doesn't have a monopoly on freedom. There are many states in the world with a higher quality of life, more political freedoms, more social freedoms, better quality of life, etc.

Maybe instead of comparing the US to the worst states in the world, it would be better to compare it to the best and see if it can be improved.

Yeah, my favourite part was when they blew up the White House.

Will Smith's acting wasn't too flash hot though.

Originally Posted by ClouD

Will Smith's acting wasn't too flash hot though.

You take that back! Will Smith is amazing.

Down the British! Up the rebels!

Originally Posted by apachama

You know, America doesn't have a monopoly on freedom. There are many states in the world with a higher quality of life, more political freedoms, more social freedoms, better quality of life, etc.

Maybe instead of comparing the US to the worst states in the world, it would be better to compare it to the best and see if it can be improved.

What else could happen if someone criticized their government that would be better? I didn't say the U.S. was the only place that allowed its citizens to criticize its government, but it's certainly better than other places. I simply want people to be grateful and quit taking their freedoms for granted.

Btw, something I didn't mention, malac. Do you understand how our government works at all? The Supreme Court does not make laws, it interprets the Constitution and determines if a law passed by Congress is constitutional. If a law like that were ever passed, you would have to look at the Congress, which, at this point in time, is made up of mostly Democrats and liberals. You have a problem with what rights you have? Blame them.

Originally Posted by apachama

There are many states in the world with a higher quality of life, more political freedoms, more social freedoms, better quality of life, etc.

More social freedoms, yes. But "better quality of life"? What countries do you have in mind? Do they have more of an illegal immigration influx problem than what we have? Is it even close?

Originally Posted by apachama

You know, America doesn't have a monopoly on freedom. There are many states in the world with a higher quality of life, more political freedoms, more social freedoms, better quality of life, etc.

Maybe instead of comparing the US to the worst states in the world, it would be better to compare it to the best and see if it can be improved.

Excellent point.

I agree that the US has a lot of freedom, but I also think a lot of that freedom is being slowly eroded away. There's nothing wrong with trying to make a country better, is there?

Originally Posted by snoop

What else could happen if someone criticized their government that would be better? I didn't say the U.S. was the only place that allowed its citizens to criticize its government, but it's certainly better than other places. I simply want people to be grateful and quit taking their freedoms for granted.

Btw, something I didn't mention, malac. Do you understand how our government works at all? The Supreme Court does not make laws, it interprets the Constitution and determines if a law passed by Congress is constitutional. If a law like that were ever passed, you would have to look at the Congress, which, at this point in time, is made up of mostly Democrats and liberals. You have a problem with what rights you have? Blame them.

Firstly, how are we taking our freedoms for granted. Secondly, yes I learned about how the supreme court works long ago since middle school. Didn't need to read your description of how so, thanks.

I think this will be my last post on this topic lol, spending too much time looking at it I'll stop by to read it now and then.

Lol. I thought we were supposed to take our freedoms for granted. Freedom is a right.

Originally Posted by RedfishBluefish

Lol. I thought we were supposed to take our freedoms for granted. Freedom is a right.

I really hope you're kidding. <_<

Freedom is not free. Go join the military, maybe you'll learn that freedom is earned.

Originally Posted by Universal Mind

More social freedoms, yes. But "better quality of life"? What countries do you have in mind? Do they have more of an illegal immigration influx problem than what we have? Is it even close?

Is illegal immigration a fair measure for the success of a state? Many countries try to reduce illegal immigration. America has more unemployment than democracies like Austria, Luxembourg, the UK, Japan, Taiwan, Ireland, Norway, New Zealand, Switzerland... I'll just send you the link. http://www.photius.com/rankings/econ...te_2006_0.html

The USA ranks 29th in terms of life expectancy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

It ranks 12th in the Human Development Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elopment_Index

In terms of democratic systems, many states have more representational voting systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_systems , more checks on government power and have governments that allow fewer forms of torture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture..._United_States

I'm not saying the US is the worst country in the world. But its a long way from being the best.

Originally Posted by apachama

Is illegal immigration a fair measure for the success of a state? Many countries try to reduce illegal immigration. America has more unemployment than democracies like Austria, Luxembourg, the UK, Japan, Taiwan, Ireland, Norway, New Zealand, Switzerland... I'll just send you the link. http://www.photius.com/rankings/econ...te_2006_0.html

The USA ranks 29th in terms of life expectancy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ife_expectancy

It ranks 12th in the Human Development Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...elopment_Index

In terms of democratic systems, many states have more representational voting systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_systems , more checks on government power and have governments that allow fewer forms of torture http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torture..._United_States

I'm not saying the US is the worst country in the world. But its a long way from being the best.

I retyped this because I don't like getting into bragging wars about countries as much as it might seem. I like Europe a lot. But I think our life expectancy is a result of how much fun we have, I think a democratic republic is far better than something closer to pure democracy, and the U.S. is definitely the most in demand place to live in the world.

Bragging wars are pretty unnecessary.

I love living in Wales, but its not the richest bit of Britain, nor is it the best place in the world in any objective sense. I couldn't brag about it to you. But its home and I love it. Internet based bragging wars are made irrelevent by the fact that a lot of people think where they live is the best place in the world be it Afghanistan or A Magical Palace of Gold In the Sky.

I wasn't trying to attack the American way of life, which is brilliant I was just pointing out that America probably isn't perfect. Very few things that humans create are. This means that there's nothing wrong with people criticising it or trying to make it better.

Its hard to say where the most in demand place in the world is. Immigration is an imperfect measure of how happy people who are already in a the country are. Illegal immigration is a big problem in Britain. I don't take it to be a sign that the country is doing well. Rather, the fact that there are sweat-shop workers and sex slaves in this country tells me that Britain is morally corrupt in some way.

No country is by any means perfect.

@ First 20 posts:

All you idiots need to go to africa.

And then Pakistan.

Then tell me why the government here stinks and how it's so terrible.

If you're complaining about life in America, then you need to re-evaluate your thought process. Questioning what the government does is extremely healthy, but whining about your rights "that have been infringed" is another story. Just like that kid in the video. He's a little punk who's rebelling against "the system". Did you hear him? He said the teachers were part of a government conspiracy to shut up intelligent people. Does that not sound retarded?

Somebody give me a good story about your infringed rights. And don't FUCKING say that cops busted you for smoking pot and that you should be allowed to smoke up.

Apparently, America has been detaining people without trial at a place called Guatanamo Bay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatanamo_bay Does that count as an infringement of people's rights? What about the Patriot Act? I'm sure I don't need to go into what kinds of torture have been committed by people who work for the US government, or stories about people detained without trial.

I'm sorry, most infringements of rights happen to other people. There's a poem about how we shouldn't ignore the abuses of the government just because they don't affect us personally.

"First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

I'm not saying the USA is equated with Naziism, that would be insane. But I believe there's an important message there. We should look after people, even if they aren't like us. Because one day it could be our necks on the line.

Originally Posted by apachama

Apparently, America has been detaining people without trial at a place called Guatanamo Bay. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatanamo_bay Does that count as an infringement of people's rights? What about the Patriot Act? I'm sure I don't need to go into what kinds of torture have been committed by people who work for the US government, or stories about people detained without trial.

I'm sorry, most infringements of rights happen to other people. There's a poem about how we shouldn't ignore the abuses of the government just because they don't affect us personally.

"First they came for the Communists,
- but I was not a communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists and the Trade Unionists,
- but I was neither, so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
- but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

I'm not saying the USA is equated with Naziism, that would be insane. But I believe there's an important message there. We should look after people, even if they aren't like us. Because one day it could be our necks on the line.

I must have missed the part where the government plans to completely exterminate its own people... What the fuck would be the point of that?

Originally Posted by snoop

Freedom is not free. Go join the military, maybe you'll learn that freedom is earned.

Only when bastards try to take it away. Then you're justified in using violence to get it back. Sounds like a right to me?