Bush takes another step backwards

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

No, you don't understand the process. This is exactly what I mean. If they are not absolutely guilty, BEYOND what it takes to convict somebody in the United States, they are released by our unit on the spot. There is no chance for the shady higher ups to get their hands on the EPW's. That only comes later, with HVT's (high value targets).

The evidence is purely physical, ie bomb making material or several AK47s and RPG's etc etc. We are the average joes. We have no interest in top secret detaining for information or anything like that. If they do nothing wrong, they are released. Also, it is MANDATORY that pictures of the evidence are included in the arrest. If photographs are absent, the detainee is released.

If they ARE guilty, with pure physical evidence AND photographs to back it up, then away they go. And I don't give a shit where they go or what happens to them. Maybe if your friends had been blown up like mine have you would understand that statement.

All I'm saying is that you don't understand how the EPW system works, and you shouldn't pretend that you do.

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I don't pretend I understand, I'm just saying what else am I supposed to believe? You know how much better you just made me feel by explaining that? Why can't every American hear this explanation? There should be a paper trail for every arrest so everyone can remain accountable, it doesn't mean the American people need to see it right away, but those doing this stuff should assume it will be released publicly so they know they aren't allowed any wiggle room. You know, declassification on information that would not benefit any major terrorist organizations such as, "We have arrested the following people for holding bomb making materials and being in contact with the following known terrorist organizers" and such.

Without any transparency, what are people going to do except get worried? I mean, terrorist is an umbrella term that can cover a lot of people, and as long as it goes on behind the scenes with no information released publicly, of course people are going to get paranoid.

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Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

I don't pretend I understand, I'm just saying what else am I supposed to believe? You know how much better you just made me feel by explaining that? Why can't every American hear this explanation? There should be a paper trail for every arrest so everyone can remain accountable, it doesn't mean the American people need to see it right away, but those doing this stuff should assume it will be released publicly so they know they aren't allowed any wiggle room. You know, declassification on information that would not benefit any major terrorist organizations such as, "We have arrested the following people for holding bomb making materials and being in contact with the following known terrorist organizers" and such.

Without any transparency, what are people going to do except get worried? I mean, terrorist is an umbrella term that can cover a lot of people, and as long as it goes on behind the scenes with no information released publicly, of course people are going to get paranoid.

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I obviously misjudged your standpoint, and I apologize.

We have such a hard time with this. Did you know that we can't even put black bags over the detainee's heads anymore because too many of them were getting claustrophobic and freaking out? I know SO many examples of soldiers who are in jail now because of mistreating detainees. MISTREATING, NOT TORTURE. I am talking about stuff like a single punch during the arrest process, or keeping them on the ground too long. Or not giving them enough water. Simple shit. We are kept under more control than they are.

And thats the way it should be.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

Or not giving them enough water. Simple shit.

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:shock:

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Originally Posted by Harrycombs

Canada already exists. I am talking about a new country with a completely new government coming into place.

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NWO.

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

I know SO many examples of soldiers who are in jail now because of mistreating detainees. MISTREATING, NOT TORTURE. I am talking about stuff like a single punch during the arrest process, or keeping them on the ground too long. Or not giving them enough water. Simple shit. We are kept under more control than they are.

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Wow. I'm really glad to hear that. Maybe things are getting better over there then.

Harrycombs. Thankyou for keeping Marxism alive. We need guys like you. I don't believe America is ready for class consciousness as you think of it. A depression may cause class collaboration if anything. There's too many diversions in place for facing the issues of class. Its just my opinion, but I think America will survive and do well for decades to come.

Keep believing, though. The West is running low on Marxists.

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Originally Posted by apachama

I don't believe America is ready for class consciousness as you think of it. A depression may cause class collaboration if anything. There's too many diversions in place for facing the issues of class. Its just my opinion, but I think America will survive and do well for decades to come.

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The United States will have quite a bit of trouble to keep the public believing in the American Dream if there is a depression though. I guess we'll see. People are still acting like sheep after going through Bush :(

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NWO.

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What do you mean?

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Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Taking artistic family picture. Not torture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Ghraib_53.jpg

Spiritual openness with pin the tail on the donkey play time with some recreational LSD. Not torture. Mistaken mistreatment.

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/&/image...y_soldiers.jpe

Pin the tail on donkey family picture with slight mistreatement. Not torture.

http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_10.../torture_3.jpg


Iraqi CO2 renewable energy initiate scheme to fight climate change. Not Electrocution.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...rtureIraq7.jpg


Putting a dog lead on their head and dragging them around. Simple things. Not even a bag over his head anymore. Can't even do that, and simple things like not giving them water :(

http://www.informationclearinghouse....mages/TPX1.gif

It was such a hard time getting accused of torture :cry:

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:banana: Hahaha! Thats awesome! ITS SO AWESOME BECAUSE I HAVENT SEEN THOSE PICTURES IN SEVERAL YEARS. Do you catch my drift? SEVERAL YEARS SINCE THAT TOOK PLACE.

Once again, you are a troll. You are letting a few soldiers represent the entire armed forces. That would be like me assuming everyone from your hometown is just as big of a douchebag as you are. Secondly, that was in a prison camp, NOT IN THE FIELD IN IRAQ. I'm talking about what happens in the field, not what happens in the rear.

Nevertheless, those soldiers got what they deserved. They are all in jail now for what they did, just where they should be.

But thanks Minervas! I really haven't seen those pictures in years, and I'm glad you put that collage together for me....to prove absolutely nothing...but it was thoughtful. And funny!

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

MISTREATING, NOT TORTURE.

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Taking family picture for an art exhibition. Not torture.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Ghraib_53.jpg

Spiritual openness with pin the tail on the donkey play time with some recreational LSD. Not torture. Mistaken mistreatment and only a few overdoses.

http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/&/image...y_soldiers.jpe

Pin the tail on donkey family picture with slight mistreatement. Not torture.

http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_10.../torture_3.jpg


Iraqi CO2 renewable energy initiate scheme to fight climate change. Not Electrocution.

http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...rtureIraq7.jpg


Putting a dog lead on their head and dragging them around. Simple things. Not even a bag over his head anymore. Can't even do that, and simple things like not giving them water :(

http://www.informationclearinghouse....mages/TPX1.gif

It was such a hard time getting accused of torture :cry:

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

a single punch during the arrest process, or keeping them on the ground too long. Or not giving them enough water. Simple shit. We are kept under more control than they are.

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I know I don't understand the bid deal :cry:

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Originally Posted by HalfDreaming

We have such a hard time with this. Did you know that we can't even put black bags over the detainee's heads anymore because too many of them were getting claustrophobic and freaking out?

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I know what's next? Can you believe it? Next thing you know they'll want freedom.

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thanks Minervas! I really haven't seen those pictures in years

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I know there's a lot of mistakes to remember. Ever since Bin laden ran away it all went wrong didn't it.

Nice rebutal. I see you are still stereotyping soldiers. Hippy.

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Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

I know there's a lot of mistakes to remember. Ever since Bin laden ran away it all went wrong didn't it.

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I disagree with the methods that the military has used, but remember that the threat of Islamo fascists is real (although, blown out of proportion). We already invaded Iraq. Now we need to stay there and try to create some sort of stability. If we back out quickly, things will get worse than they already are. I hate this war just as much as you probably do, but its not so simple. I personally have a lot of respect for Half/Dreaming and the other people in the armed forces, doing what they think is right. In the pictures you showed, there were clearly just a few people on a power trip. I bet that most soldiers are just as disgusted at those pictures as you are. Minervas, we shouldn't be blaming the soldiers for this war and everything that goes wrong in the military.

In case anyone was wondering, communism doesn't work.

It never has worked.

It never will work.

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Originally Posted by Grod

In case anyone was wondering, communism doesn't work.

It never has worked.

It never will work.

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Name a country that has become communist. Oh yeah, there aren't any!! Socialism has been proven to be extremely effective though.

See this site, perhaps it might open your eyes to the successes of socialism.http://www.cubatruth.org/


In Cuba:

Literacy Before & After The Revolution
1952 54%
2005 100%

Infant Mortality* Before & After The Revolution
1958 60
2004 5.8

Persons Per Doctor
Haiti 10,005
Honduras 2,500
Colombia 1,105
Dominican Republic 949
Brazil 844
United States 421
Cuba 169

Women In Parliamentary Seats
Haiti 4%
Honduras 6%
Brazil 9%
Colombia 12.2%
United States 14%
Mexico 15.9%
Argentina 31.3%
Cuba 36%

Also, read "Another View of Stalin."

Now lets get back on topic :roll: PM me if you have any argument, I would like to hear it.

eh....no country has ever been communist because communism is impossible. That is why it sucks.

I personally don't even like the idea anyway.

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Originally Posted by Grod

In case anyone was wondering, communism doesn't work.

It never has worked.

It never will work.

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Thanks for that statement of opinion without any supporting evidence. I counter it with "nuh-uh!" Not that I'm a Communist. I guess. Marxist thinking is a beautiful thing though. Read up on Lukacs, Althusser, Horkheimer, Adorno, Gramsci, Bloch, etc. The Western schools of Marixism and post-Marxism have some wonderful thoughts.

As for the soldiers in that picture: from what I've read of the US view of torture it looks like there was institutional endorsement on some level. It seems that in many ways this problem is getting better. I believe many nations have successfully managed to get their citizens freed from Guatanomo Bay. I remember watching the news when Britain managed to get some of our citizens out of there.

Torture seems to have been proven unpopular and counter-productive in Iraq. As for what H/D said about not enough water being a simple thing, remember Iraq is a hot country. "Enough water" is probably quite a lot. And the conditions are difficult for soldiers.

I've no problem with soldiers. They're just following orders from the same incompetent governments as the rest of us.

If it's getting better, I'm very happy. But I'm fairly confident that it's only gotten better because they were caught.

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I disagree with the methods that the military has used, but remember that the threat of Islamo fascists is real (although, blown out of proportion). We already invaded Iraq. Now we need to stay there and try to create some sort of stability.

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If you look at all areas in the world where there is incredible instability and complete poverty it starts to dawn on you why choose Iraq at this particular time in history to try and 'save' from itself. America has enough problems of it's own don't you think? Getting caught up in foreign entanglements is never a good idea. And the threat is not proportional to the reaction if that was the excuse. America would have invaded North Korea for it's nuclear weapons program if it was concerned about security matters. North Korea has worse fascism present than Iraq anyway. It's just ridiculous to think there is any great threat that calls for a full on invasion in Iraq. You have to remember that the only reason people agrees was because of the false evidence of weapons of mass destruction. No-one found them because they didn't have them to begin with. Now it seems to be getting steadily worse as if they have no idea what they are doing and don't know when to pull out or how.

Now think about why no other nation invaded or lied to their people about evidence of threats. This was all emotionally attached to 911. No not because Americas leaders are brave. Every other nation understands it is a stupid thing to do. Even if it was Bin ladens responsibility they haven't used any resources to do anything to catch him or hold him accountable yet. They are certainly not this incapable. The entire situation is becoming more and more ludicrous even to those that don't know the more detailed facts. While those that willingly ignore them for their own selfish prejudice are just shameful.

Just about every other nation is having peace talks to help everyone out of this mess. I've never being to Iraq and the war zone so who knows what is going on? I'm not ready or think it appropriate to risk my life to go there and find out either.

Having said that those pictures are a reminder that Americas military is not immune to bad apples. Wether they be soldiers or leaders like George W bush. My point is that it's useless to stay complacent about injustice within the military industrial complex as a whole. The more apathetic, prejudice, and complacent the American people become as a whole the worse it will be. Ironically those innocent people of Iraq who were tortured, killed, including children. To them you are the terrorist because they were minding their own business when bombs fell on to their houses.

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If we back out quickly, things will get worse than they already are. I hate this war just as much as you probably do, but its not so simple. I personally have a lot of respect for Half/Dreaming and the other people in the armed forces, doing what they think is right. In the pictures you showed, there were clearly just a few people on a power trip. I bet that most soldiers are just as disgusted at those pictures as you are. Minervas, we shouldn't be blaming the soldiers for this war and everything that goes wrong in the military.

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Most people are disgusted at the photos and you don't need a military rank to understand why it's not right. They still were in the military representing America now you must face that fact. While it's not a question of blame we should stop thinking about our ego and realize a bigger picture is going on that requires more sophisticated states of understanding and focus to achieve peace. You have to consider the manipulators not just the ignorant people that follow them. We have to be able to realize the heroes so we can support them.

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Originally Posted by apachama[/quote

Torture seems to have been proven unpopular and counter-productive in Iraq. As for what H/D said about not enough water being a simple thing, remember Iraq is a hot country. "Enough water" is probably quite a lot. And the conditions are difficult for soldiers.

I've no problem with soldiers. They're just following orders from the same incompetent governments as the rest of us.

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:eh: I hope it doesn't surprise you that torture would be unpopular because that's obvious not only in Iraq but pretty much everywhere. No-one wants to be tortured. When you say water is tough to obtain in hot conditions and that is the reason for this aspect of torture. It reminds me of those brick headed pro war rally kind of people you might find in small groups around Texas. You know those cowboy funny looking preachers. A cheeseburger in one hand gun in the other in front of a hand made blue painted sign of some sort usually saying something like: 'I luv my Ameican presidaant and we gunna blast those terrowist where evar thay may beee. Ofcorse they got weapons of mass destruction thay got em. You got to be kidding me thay got em. I don wunt to talk to you hippay. George Bush Aint dun nothun wrong. You go over there ay Dunt wanna talk to you hippes and his frieand. It's hot in Iraq, thay gat not water. Thay gut no water for them Iraqis it's hut ovar there. Oh com on it's hut ovar there".

Scary stuff. Did you know a lot of people in America who didn't know Australia on the map supported invading Australia because some random journalist pretended it was a Muslim land with terrorist named Cuba. These people are voting in your country.

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Originally Posted by apachama

Torture seems to have been proven unpopular and counter-productive in Iraq. As for what H/D said about not enough water being a simple thing, remember Iraq is a hot country. "Enough water" is probably quite a lot. And the conditions are difficult for soldiers.

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You're right. Torture and mistreatment are definately counterproductive for our mission in Iraq. In fact, there is a direct correlation between the well being of the Iraqi citizens and the amount of bombs that go off in a general area.

Keep in mind that most violence in Iraq these days does not come from Islamofascist jihadists. It comes from people with a hate for America, for some reason, wether it be we killed his cousin or killed his dog.

You would be suprised at the Iraqis. You really would. I once heard a story from a friend of mine who got his HMMWV (Humvee) blown up, then the Iraqi who pulled the trigger ran up to the vehicle and started crying because he didn't blow up the one he was trying to hit. Apparently people in Green HMMWVs did something to his people, but he blew up a tan one. (Everyone lived in that incedent)

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Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

Most people are disgusted at the photos and you don't need a military rank to understand why it's not right. They still were in the military representing America now you must face that fact. While it's not a question of blame we should stop thinking about our ego and realize a bigger picture is going on that requires more sophisticated states of understanding and focus to achieve peace. You have to consider the manipulators not just the ignorant people that follow them. We have to be able to realize the heroes so we can support them.

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This is not about ego. You think it is an ego boost having troops killed every day with people back home screaming they are ignorant fools? Especially when we cant go on an offensive against terrorists because they hide behind women and children? Yeah those are some brave freedom fighters fighting for their country right there.

Plus as has been said, those photos are very old now and the military has punished them and cracked down so it wont happen again, but of course word of that will never reach the Iraqis OR half of Americans will it? Big surprise.

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Originally Posted by apachama

Thanks for that statement of opinion without any supporting evidence. I counter it with "nuh-uh!" Not that I'm a Communist. I guess. Marxist thinking is a beautiful thing though. Read up on Lukacs, Althusser, Horkheimer, Adorno, Gramsci, Bloch, etc. The Western schools of Marixism and post-Marxism have some wonderful thoughts.

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That's cool, they really are wonderful ideas. I'm going to write a book on how everyone will be happy, they just have to {something inherently impossible for humanity}. Isn't that such a wonderful idea? Why aren't you reading my book?! The thinking sure is wonderful!

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You think it is an ego boost having troops killed every day with people back home screaming they are ignorant fools?

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Are they screaming that by now? Listen to them then. It's not just American troops. The human race is together not just Americans. See how your ego discounts the other causalities. It is about your ego in this case because you continue to defend something and you look so dumb trying to explain based on nothing more than your need to have a life with a conscience. You can't brush away abuse once it has happened you need to take responsibility for mistakes. It doesn't matter how much time passes the photos are a disturbing reflection. There is not guarantee it's not happening right now and worse. Nothing special has being done to combat and eliminate barbaric behavior. That is why there is war. I haven't posted the videos of them talking about their tank driving experiences where they love to have loud music on while shooting everything that moves and other insane things. But this isn't about looking at all the abuse we can see the abuse by looking it up ourself if we were capable. Not much time has passed since this war began and just because the photos arn't taken yesterday doesn't mean it's irrelevant. Those photos are leaked it's a wonder they were even taking photos......People aren't taking photos in a war zone 24/7 you don't know what kind of abuse is going on.

Back to the texas mob now...
"Thars only wun group of soldiers evar did bad to the terrorist and thay in jail boy. Thay in jail. Thay got no military out there not doin no good cause thay in Jail boy. Those terrorist hiding hind woman and children we got to be offensiave. oh com on dunt show me those photos thay too old. They old photos. Never nothing like that happen again. We got some braave freedum fighters for my country raight thare. And dunt u say nothing bad about em cause these terrowist ain't gunna listen to no-body. You think these terrorist gunna just lay down? No Iraqi abuse never not gunna happen again."

Um duh, we HAVE taken responsibility for that abuse, that was the point of my post and, yeah, I was talking about the casualties of the IRAQI women and children who get killed because the guys we are fighting cant just square up and fight. I like how you paraphrased me too, to make it look like I only cared about our own troops.

Im not sure what video you are talking about but I know for a fact that is not something ordinary that goes on, my brother has been there for over a year and seen more than you probably ever will. I think you should get off your high horse and come to terms with your own selfrightous ego with little to back your own opinions up than isolated incidents.

The war started carelessly. That is enough. There is no need to demolish hundreds and hundreds of civilians and their homes.

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Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix

If you look at all areas in the world where there is incredible instability and complete poverty it starts to dawn on you why choose Iraq at this particular time in history to try and 'save' from itself. America has enough problems of it's own don't you think? Getting caught up in foreign entanglements is never a good idea. And the threat is not proportional to the reaction if that was the excuse. America would have invaded North Korea for it's nuclear weapons program if it was concerned about security matters. North Korea has worse fascism present than Iraq anyway. It's just ridiculous to think there is any great threat that calls for a full on invasion in Iraq. You have to remember that the only reason people agrees was because of the false evidence of weapons of mass destruction. No-one found them because they didn't have them to begin with. Now it seems to be getting steadily worse as if they have no idea what they are doing and don't know when to pull out or how.

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I do not support this war. I know that the evidence was faked. But whats done is done. Now, if we leave immediately, what do you think will happen? Fascists will probably come to power, and more will die. If we stay there, more Americans will die. No matter what we currently do, people are going to die. This isn't a black and white thing. I support withdraw, but its not so simple. Also, invading North Korea wouldn't be a great idea either. I don't support any imperialist invasions of any countries. There is no reason for us to attack any of these people.

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Now think about why no other nation invaded or lied to their people about evidence of threats.

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What? This happens all the time. In the past centuries, most wars were started this way. The United States was the only country that would profit from this, so of course they were the only ones who invaded Iraq.

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This was all emotionally attached to 911. No not because Americas leaders are brave.

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I think we all know that.

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Every other nation understands it is a stupid thing to do. Even if it was Bin ladens responsibility they haven't used any resources to do anything to catch him or hold him accountable yet. They are certainly not this incapable. The entire situation is becoming more and more ludicrous even to those that don't know the more detailed facts. While those that willingly ignore them for their own selfish prejudice are just shameful.

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The Iraq was started because the US Government wanted to capitalize on the fear created by 9/11. Other Nations wouldn't have profited from this war, so of course they are getting very involved.

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Just about every other nation is having peace talks to help everyone out of this mess. I've never being to Iraq and the war zone so who knows what is going on? I'm not ready or think it appropriate to risk my life to go there and find out either.

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Peace talks don't always work. Remember that were dealing with religious fanatics. Although, this would be the right step. Unfortunately, "we don't negotiate with terrorists."

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To them you are the terrorist because they were minding their own business when bombs fell on to their houses.

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I think the invasion of Iraq was clearly imperialist and it was a terrible thing. Unfortunately, we can't undo what we have already done.

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Most people are disgusted at the photos and you don't need a military rank to understand why it's not right. They still were in the military representing America now you must face that fact. While it's not a question of blame we should stop thinking about our ego and realize a bigger picture is going on that requires more sophisticated states of understanding and focus to achieve peace. You have to consider the manipulators not just the ignorant people that follow them. We have to be able to realize the heroes so we can support them.

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I agree somewhat, but I don't see what this has to do with an ego.