Man, he really doesn't like the Bill of Rights :?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080710/...t_surveillance
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Man, he really doesn't like the Bill of Rights :?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080710/...t_surveillance
Those videos are amazing. I'm going to miss Bush when he stops being American president. I've always thought he's kind of cute. He comes over as a bit helpless, well-meaning but can't help getting things wrong. And his accent is nice. I get the feeling that that he's be kind of nice to meet, if it weren't for the fact that he'd probably think he's better than me because he has a full time job and a car.
Anyway, yeah. Wire tapping is apalling. How does he still get these things passed?
Yeah apachama it makes sense this is one of the reasons he is chosen for sock puppet, you don't want him to go off stage.
while I agree this is not the right direction, I can help but notice the bias in the report "lame duck" when he still gets pretty much everything he wants done.
"Lame Duck" is not a bias or even a negative comment. It is a specific term used to describe a president near the end of his second term. "Lame" means it typically becomes more and more difficult for him to make a difference in the White House because people are concentrating too much on the next election.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdyo
I suppose, but the way they use it just sounds like they are trying to make him sound worse than he is. Then again, I hate politics so I probably read in to most things too much. Just know I agree this was not a good decision
People who are suspected are locked away indefinitely, he also got rid of the right to a speedy trial. If it never goes to court then it can't be appealed to the supreme court to overrule it.Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
One by one, all our freedoms are being taken away. Land of the free my ass. Soon it's going to be renamed "Land of the Police State"
The way the US is going reminded me of this:
There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible to live without breaking laws.
If you, or anyone you know, has been arrested from wire tapping, please let me know. Because I have never heard of such stories.
And who gives a fuck about the Hajji at Guantanamo Bay. We don't just arrest innocent Arabs for the hell of it. TRUST ME. We go through High Value Target and target analysis training, and believe me, if the have no reason to be shipped away, they are let free back into the sandbox.
But I'm sure you will believe whatever suits you best, and not the word of somebody who actually deals with this shit. It causes you sexual pleasure to assume there is a conspiracy.
You keep saying trust me, we're only getting the bad guys, but with no transparency there is NO accountability. That's what kills it, all this shit is going on behind the scenes and we're learning absolutely nothing about it, we're just supposed to trust that this witch hunt is only killing witches.
How many times in history have only the guilty ended up paying the penalty? How many people killed by iron maidens were actually heretics? How many people burned at the stake were really witches? How many people on trial by McCarthy were actually communists?
Why can't these arrests and trials and imprisonments take place in the public eye? How are they risking the operation by saying, "The following people have been arrested this month for suspicion of terrorism, and they're at THIS facility being tried." I mean it's not like we're asking them to warn the people they're about kidnap, we just want a little opportunity to ensure accountability as the people in a government that is supposed to be ruled by the people.
No, you don't understand the process. This is exactly what I mean. If they are not absolutely guilty, BEYOND what it takes to convict somebody in the United States, they are released by our unit on the spot. There is no chance for the shady higher ups to get their hands on the EPW's. That only comes later, with HVT's (high value targets).
The evidence is purely physical, ie bomb making material or several AK47s and RPG's etc etc. We are the average joes. We have no interest in top secret detaining for information or anything like that. If they do nothing wrong, they are released. Also, it is MANDATORY that pictures of the evidence are included in the arrest. If photographs are absent, the detainee is released.
If they ARE guilty, with pure physical evidence AND photographs to back it up, then away they go. And I don't give a shit where they go or what happens to them. Maybe if your friends had been blown up like mine have you would understand that statement.
All I'm saying is that you don't understand how the EPW system works, and you shouldn't pretend that you do.
Then they should have no trouble getting a warrant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
I don't devalue Bush's administration so much as I do Bush as a person. He's just...I mean, God. "Drooling Moron" couldn't do another person quite the amount of justice it does him (I'm saying this in a completely literal tone - I have literally seen drool pass his lips during a televised speech. It was hilarious).
Anyway, he's made it perfectly clear (as in, has said it himself) that he would prefer a dictatorship. What kind of an idiot president would openly admit something like that?
I may not understand the intricacies of the that particular system, but I can see quite clearly the problem with it as you have outlined it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
Ever notice how finding "evidence" is not enough to win a normal court trial? Ever notice that those suspected of crimes get something called "due process?" Ever heard the phrase "innocent until proven guilty?" Ever wonder why judges are not also juries?
"Trust me, we're doing it right" instills absolutely no confidence in anyone.
Should you sign a contract without reading the fine print if the other party says "trust me?" I know I won't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
You know you are so fucking naive that it astounds me. Now I never want to resort to Ad hominem remarks, but you just make me sick. Quit, watching, fucking, Fox news, and, look, at, what, the, fuck, is, really, going, on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
I don't watch Fox News, youngling. Are you even aware what my occupation is? What makes you more qualified to discuss this topic than I am?Quote:
Originally Posted by harvey123456
Ninja, "warrants" don't exist in a warzone. Are you suggesting that if we see a dude fire at us with an RPG, and then walk in his front door, that we have to go back to the FOB to get a warrant before we can raid the house?
Once again, TRUST ME. Beyond getting blown up, our biggest issue and burdon is getting enough evidence to keep a detainee. Do even know about the figerprinting and facial recognition systems we put the detainees through? Probably not. Link to follow.
But... wiretapping happens in places other than warzones. I assume that the United States of America is not currently suffering from an Iraq style insurgency problem?Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
I trust my present government. I'm sure that appropriate safeguards are in place to make sure that the system is rarely ever used for the wrong reasons and that corruption is often prevented.
However, in the past, corruption has happened in democratic systems (i.e. Watergate, the election of the Nazis, or (a few months ago) the "bugging" of a British MP. Because power can sometimes fall into the hands of the unscrupulous, I think it is best if there are appropriate checks and balances in place.
Obama wont be much better. Be ready to be disappointed at how little we matter in this election.
I've been reading about a possible great depression of 2008 or 2009, I think something big is going to happen, and it scares me to death.
Agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycombs
Its not just this election, every election since woodrow wilson has been a choice for the status quo. Bob Barr or Ron Paul are the only real choices.
Barr says we are fastly approaching the point of no return, where america is lost, for good.
It shouldn't scare you. This will inevitable create a class consciousness, like those of the early 20th century. It will be the perfect time for a peoples revolution. This could be good. Sort of like how the first World War also helped trigger the Russian revolution and was partially responsible for the creation of the Soviet Union.Quote:
Originally Posted by guerilla
Ron Paul was honest, but he would have wrecked the country as well.Quote:
Its not just this election, every election since woodrow wilson has been a choice for the status quo. Bob Barr or Ron Paul are the only real choices.
America wont matter in the long run. A new, and hopefully better, country should come into existence.Quote:
Barr says we are fastly approaching the point of no return, where america is lost, for good.
There already is one...It's called Canada.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycombs
Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonoverlord
Canada already exists. I am talking about a new country with a completely new government coming into place.
I don't pretend I understand, I'm just saying what else am I supposed to believe? You know how much better you just made me feel by explaining that? Why can't every American hear this explanation? There should be a paper trail for every arrest so everyone can remain accountable, it doesn't mean the American people need to see it right away, but those doing this stuff should assume it will be released publicly so they know they aren't allowed any wiggle room. You know, declassification on information that would not benefit any major terrorist organizations such as, "We have arrested the following people for holding bomb making materials and being in contact with the following known terrorist organizers" and such.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
Without any transparency, what are people going to do except get worried? I mean, terrorist is an umbrella term that can cover a lot of people, and as long as it goes on behind the scenes with no information released publicly, of course people are going to get paranoid.
I obviously misjudged your standpoint, and I apologize.Quote:
Originally Posted by Omnius Deus
We have such a hard time with this. Did you know that we can't even put black bags over the detainee's heads anymore because too many of them were getting claustrophobic and freaking out? I know SO many examples of soldiers who are in jail now because of mistreating detainees. MISTREATING, NOT TORTURE. I am talking about stuff like a single punch during the arrest process, or keeping them on the ground too long. Or not giving them enough water. Simple shit. We are kept under more control than they are.
And thats the way it should be.
:shock:Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
NWO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycombs
Wow. I'm really glad to hear that. Maybe things are getting better over there then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
Harrycombs. Thankyou for keeping Marxism alive. We need guys like you. I don't believe America is ready for class consciousness as you think of it. A depression may cause class collaboration if anything. There's too many diversions in place for facing the issues of class. Its just my opinion, but I think America will survive and do well for decades to come.
Keep believing, though. The West is running low on Marxists.
The United States will have quite a bit of trouble to keep the public believing in the American Dream if there is a depression though. I guess we'll see. People are still acting like sheep after going through Bush :(Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
What do you mean?Quote:
NWO.
:banana: Hahaha! Thats awesome! ITS SO AWESOME BECAUSE I HAVENT SEEN THOSE PICTURES IN SEVERAL YEARS. Do you catch my drift? SEVERAL YEARS SINCE THAT TOOK PLACE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Once again, you are a troll. You are letting a few soldiers represent the entire armed forces. That would be like me assuming everyone from your hometown is just as big of a douchebag as you are. Secondly, that was in a prison camp, NOT IN THE FIELD IN IRAQ. I'm talking about what happens in the field, not what happens in the rear.
Nevertheless, those soldiers got what they deserved. They are all in jail now for what they did, just where they should be.
But thanks Minervas! I really haven't seen those pictures in years, and I'm glad you put that collage together for me....to prove absolutely nothing...but it was thoughtful. And funny!
Taking family picture for an art exhibition. Not torture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Ghraib_53.jpg
Spiritual openness with pin the tail on the donkey play time with some recreational LSD. Not torture. Mistaken mistreatment and only a few overdoses.
http://www.thewe.cc/thewei/&/&/image...y_soldiers.jpe
Pin the tail on donkey family picture with slight mistreatement. Not torture.
http://www.thepanamanews.com/pn/v_10.../torture_3.jpg
Iraqi CO2 renewable energy initiate scheme to fight climate change. Not Electrocution.
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/b...rtureIraq7.jpg
Putting a dog lead on their head and dragging them around. Simple things. Not even a bag over his head anymore. Can't even do that, and simple things like not giving them water :(
http://www.informationclearinghouse....mages/TPX1.gif
It was such a hard time getting accused of torture :cry:
I know I don't understand the bid deal :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
I know what's next? Can you believe it? Next thing you know they'll want freedom.Quote:
Originally Posted by HalfDreaming
I know there's a lot of mistakes to remember. Ever since Bin laden ran away it all went wrong didn't it.Quote:
thanks Minervas! I really haven't seen those pictures in years
Nice rebutal. I see you are still stereotyping soldiers. Hippy.
I disagree with the methods that the military has used, but remember that the threat of Islamo fascists is real (although, blown out of proportion). We already invaded Iraq. Now we need to stay there and try to create some sort of stability. If we back out quickly, things will get worse than they already are. I hate this war just as much as you probably do, but its not so simple. I personally have a lot of respect for Half/Dreaming and the other people in the armed forces, doing what they think is right. In the pictures you showed, there were clearly just a few people on a power trip. I bet that most soldiers are just as disgusted at those pictures as you are. Minervas, we shouldn't be blaming the soldiers for this war and everything that goes wrong in the military.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
In case anyone was wondering, communism doesn't work.
It never has worked.
It never will work.
Name a country that has become communist. Oh yeah, there aren't any!! Socialism has been proven to be extremely effective though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grod
See this site, perhaps it might open your eyes to the successes of socialism.http://www.cubatruth.org/
In Cuba:
Literacy Before & After The Revolution
1952 54%
2005 100%
Infant Mortality* Before & After The Revolution
1958 60
2004 5.8
Persons Per Doctor
Haiti 10,005
Honduras 2,500
Colombia 1,105
Dominican Republic 949
Brazil 844
United States 421
Cuba 169
Women In Parliamentary Seats
Haiti 4%
Honduras 6%
Brazil 9%
Colombia 12.2%
United States 14%
Mexico 15.9%
Argentina 31.3%
Cuba 36%
Also, read "Another View of Stalin."
Now lets get back on topic :roll: PM me if you have any argument, I would like to hear it.
eh....no country has ever been communist because communism is impossible. That is why it sucks.
I personally don't even like the idea anyway.
Thanks for that statement of opinion without any supporting evidence. I counter it with "nuh-uh!" Not that I'm a Communist. I guess. Marxist thinking is a beautiful thing though. Read up on Lukacs, Althusser, Horkheimer, Adorno, Gramsci, Bloch, etc. The Western schools of Marixism and post-Marxism have some wonderful thoughts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grod
As for the soldiers in that picture: from what I've read of the US view of torture it looks like there was institutional endorsement on some level. It seems that in many ways this problem is getting better. I believe many nations have successfully managed to get their citizens freed from Guatanomo Bay. I remember watching the news when Britain managed to get some of our citizens out of there.
Torture seems to have been proven unpopular and counter-productive in Iraq. As for what H/D said about not enough water being a simple thing, remember Iraq is a hot country. "Enough water" is probably quite a lot. And the conditions are difficult for soldiers.
I've no problem with soldiers. They're just following orders from the same incompetent governments as the rest of us.
If it's getting better, I'm very happy. But I'm fairly confident that it's only gotten better because they were caught.
If you look at all areas in the world where there is incredible instability and complete poverty it starts to dawn on you why choose Iraq at this particular time in history to try and 'save' from itself. America has enough problems of it's own don't you think? Getting caught up in foreign entanglements is never a good idea. And the threat is not proportional to the reaction if that was the excuse. America would have invaded North Korea for it's nuclear weapons program if it was concerned about security matters. North Korea has worse fascism present than Iraq anyway. It's just ridiculous to think there is any great threat that calls for a full on invasion in Iraq. You have to remember that the only reason people agrees was because of the false evidence of weapons of mass destruction. No-one found them because they didn't have them to begin with. Now it seems to be getting steadily worse as if they have no idea what they are doing and don't know when to pull out or how.Quote:
I disagree with the methods that the military has used, but remember that the threat of Islamo fascists is real (although, blown out of proportion). We already invaded Iraq. Now we need to stay there and try to create some sort of stability.
Now think about why no other nation invaded or lied to their people about evidence of threats. This was all emotionally attached to 911. No not because Americas leaders are brave. Every other nation understands it is a stupid thing to do. Even if it was Bin ladens responsibility they haven't used any resources to do anything to catch him or hold him accountable yet. They are certainly not this incapable. The entire situation is becoming more and more ludicrous even to those that don't know the more detailed facts. While those that willingly ignore them for their own selfish prejudice are just shameful.
Just about every other nation is having peace talks to help everyone out of this mess. I've never being to Iraq and the war zone so who knows what is going on? I'm not ready or think it appropriate to risk my life to go there and find out either.
Having said that those pictures are a reminder that Americas military is not immune to bad apples. Wether they be soldiers or leaders like George W bush. My point is that it's useless to stay complacent about injustice within the military industrial complex as a whole. The more apathetic, prejudice, and complacent the American people become as a whole the worse it will be. Ironically those innocent people of Iraq who were tortured, killed, including children. To them you are the terrorist because they were minding their own business when bombs fell on to their houses.
Most people are disgusted at the photos and you don't need a military rank to understand why it's not right. They still were in the military representing America now you must face that fact. While it's not a question of blame we should stop thinking about our ego and realize a bigger picture is going on that requires more sophisticated states of understanding and focus to achieve peace. You have to consider the manipulators not just the ignorant people that follow them. We have to be able to realize the heroes so we can support them.Quote:
If we back out quickly, things will get worse than they already are. I hate this war just as much as you probably do, but its not so simple. I personally have a lot of respect for Half/Dreaming and the other people in the armed forces, doing what they think is right. In the pictures you showed, there were clearly just a few people on a power trip. I bet that most soldiers are just as disgusted at those pictures as you are. Minervas, we shouldn't be blaming the soldiers for this war and everything that goes wrong in the military.
:eh: I hope it doesn't surprise you that torture would be unpopular because that's obvious not only in Iraq but pretty much everywhere. No-one wants to be tortured. When you say water is tough to obtain in hot conditions and that is the reason for this aspect of torture. It reminds me of those brick headed pro war rally kind of people you might find in small groups around Texas. You know those cowboy funny looking preachers. A cheeseburger in one hand gun in the other in front of a hand made blue painted sign of some sort usually saying something like: 'I luv my Ameican presidaant and we gunna blast those terrowist where evar thay may beee. Ofcorse they got weapons of mass destruction thay got em. You got to be kidding me thay got em. I don wunt to talk to you hippay. George Bush Aint dun nothun wrong. You go over there ay Dunt wanna talk to you hippes and his frieand. It's hot in Iraq, thay gat not water. Thay gut no water for them Iraqis it's hut ovar there. Oh com on it's hut ovar there".Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama[/quote
Scary stuff. Did you know a lot of people in America who didn't know Australia on the map supported invading Australia because some random journalist pretended it was a Muslim land with terrorist named Cuba. These people are voting in your country.
You're right. Torture and mistreatment are definately counterproductive for our mission in Iraq. In fact, there is a direct correlation between the well being of the Iraqi citizens and the amount of bombs that go off in a general area.Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
Keep in mind that most violence in Iraq these days does not come from Islamofascist jihadists. It comes from people with a hate for America, for some reason, wether it be we killed his cousin or killed his dog.
You would be suprised at the Iraqis. You really would. I once heard a story from a friend of mine who got his HMMWV (Humvee) blown up, then the Iraqi who pulled the trigger ran up to the vehicle and started crying because he didn't blow up the one he was trying to hit. Apparently people in Green HMMWVs did something to his people, but he blew up a tan one. (Everyone lived in that incedent)
This is not about ego. You think it is an ego boost having troops killed every day with people back home screaming they are ignorant fools? Especially when we cant go on an offensive against terrorists because they hide behind women and children? Yeah those are some brave freedom fighters fighting for their country right there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Plus as has been said, those photos are very old now and the military has punished them and cracked down so it wont happen again, but of course word of that will never reach the Iraqis OR half of Americans will it? Big surprise.
That's cool, they really are wonderful ideas. I'm going to write a book on how everyone will be happy, they just have to {something inherently impossible for humanity}. Isn't that such a wonderful idea? Why aren't you reading my book?! The thinking sure is wonderful!Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
Are they screaming that by now? Listen to them then. It's not just American troops. The human race is together not just Americans. See how your ego discounts the other causalities. It is about your ego in this case because you continue to defend something and you look so dumb trying to explain based on nothing more than your need to have a life with a conscience. You can't brush away abuse once it has happened you need to take responsibility for mistakes. It doesn't matter how much time passes the photos are a disturbing reflection. There is not guarantee it's not happening right now and worse. Nothing special has being done to combat and eliminate barbaric behavior. That is why there is war. I haven't posted the videos of them talking about their tank driving experiences where they love to have loud music on while shooting everything that moves and other insane things. But this isn't about looking at all the abuse we can see the abuse by looking it up ourself if we were capable. Not much time has passed since this war began and just because the photos arn't taken yesterday doesn't mean it's irrelevant. Those photos are leaked it's a wonder they were even taking photos......People aren't taking photos in a war zone 24/7 you don't know what kind of abuse is going on.Quote:
You think it is an ego boost having troops killed every day with people back home screaming they are ignorant fools?
Back to the texas mob now...
"Thars only wun group of soldiers evar did bad to the terrorist and thay in jail boy. Thay in jail. Thay got no military out there not doin no good cause thay in Jail boy. Those terrorist hiding hind woman and children we got to be offensiave. oh com on dunt show me those photos thay too old. They old photos. Never nothing like that happen again. We got some braave freedum fighters for my country raight thare. And dunt u say nothing bad about em cause these terrowist ain't gunna listen to no-body. You think these terrorist gunna just lay down? No Iraqi abuse never not gunna happen again."
Um duh, we HAVE taken responsibility for that abuse, that was the point of my post and, yeah, I was talking about the casualties of the IRAQI women and children who get killed because the guys we are fighting cant just square up and fight. I like how you paraphrased me too, to make it look like I only cared about our own troops.
Im not sure what video you are talking about but I know for a fact that is not something ordinary that goes on, my brother has been there for over a year and seen more than you probably ever will. I think you should get off your high horse and come to terms with your own selfrightous ego with little to back your own opinions up than isolated incidents.
The war started carelessly. That is enough. There is no need to demolish hundreds and hundreds of civilians and their homes.
I do not support this war. I know that the evidence was faked. But whats done is done. Now, if we leave immediately, what do you think will happen? Fascists will probably come to power, and more will die. If we stay there, more Americans will die. No matter what we currently do, people are going to die. This isn't a black and white thing. I support withdraw, but its not so simple. Also, invading North Korea wouldn't be a great idea either. I don't support any imperialist invasions of any countries. There is no reason for us to attack any of these people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
What? This happens all the time. In the past centuries, most wars were started this way. The United States was the only country that would profit from this, so of course they were the only ones who invaded Iraq.Quote:
Now think about why no other nation invaded or lied to their people about evidence of threats.
I think we all know that.Quote:
This was all emotionally attached to 911. No not because Americas leaders are brave.
The Iraq was started because the US Government wanted to capitalize on the fear created by 9/11. Other Nations wouldn't have profited from this war, so of course they are getting very involved.Quote:
Every other nation understands it is a stupid thing to do. Even if it was Bin ladens responsibility they haven't used any resources to do anything to catch him or hold him accountable yet. They are certainly not this incapable. The entire situation is becoming more and more ludicrous even to those that don't know the more detailed facts. While those that willingly ignore them for their own selfish prejudice are just shameful.
Peace talks don't always work. Remember that were dealing with religious fanatics. Although, this would be the right step. Unfortunately, "we don't negotiate with terrorists."Quote:
Just about every other nation is having peace talks to help everyone out of this mess. I've never being to Iraq and the war zone so who knows what is going on? I'm not ready or think it appropriate to risk my life to go there and find out either.
I think the invasion of Iraq was clearly imperialist and it was a terrible thing. Unfortunately, we can't undo what we have already done.Quote:
To them you are the terrorist because they were minding their own business when bombs fell on to their houses.
I agree somewhat, but I don't see what this has to do with an ego.Quote:
Most people are disgusted at the photos and you don't need a military rank to understand why it's not right. They still were in the military representing America now you must face that fact. While it's not a question of blame we should stop thinking about our ego and realize a bigger picture is going on that requires more sophisticated states of understanding and focus to achieve peace. You have to consider the manipulators not just the ignorant people that follow them. We have to be able to realize the heroes so we can support them.
No, the reason no country has become communist is that the transition can't begin until imperialist powers are at bay. Unfortunately, the United States exists and would clearly take advantage of a Socialist state transitioning to communism, see that their military would be no existent. That is why a large portion of the world most transition at once. We'll see who is right in time :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
Harry pretty much is on the same page as me with the war so Im gonna just say I agree with his rebuttle on that.
Bafoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by tkdyo
There, now you have to counter.
lol, just to make it clear, I wasnt talking about the communist part, I was talking about the post he made before that was to the chick Ive been talking to. Which you are also on the same page as us.
but in rebuttle, meany face!
/me gives bush birdie finger.
i would type more but i need to go puke.
If Obama gets elected, liberals are going to be very bored, and people like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert will be out of work. But the hate Bush fad will finally go out of style just like new wave and parachute pants. Are you prepared?
oooooo, Universal, surreal new avatar!
It's even better for hypnotizing people into believing my posts. :bigteeth: My bosses in the CIA increased my avatar budget by a few cents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
is it really going "out of style" or is he well... losing office?Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
also i'm not implying that you do, but don't think everyone hates bush just because everyone else hates bush.
a lot of us have our reasons. we are probably the minority but like i said, we have our reasons.
I know, and you are in the minority.Quote:
Originally Posted by lysergic
Honest dissent aside, the hate Bush cult/trend is the most disgusting and pathetic bandwagon behavior I have ever seen in my life, and it reminds me of what comes in second place. There was a guy at my school who got in bad with some of the more popular kids when he was in 7th grade. Those guys made spectacles out of how they were really mean to him. Then others joined in and started being mean as Hell to him too. Then others started saying, "Hey, it's totally cool to be mean to that kid and make his life miserable. Let's join in. Everybody else is doing it, so it's okay, and it gives us group identity." That is unfortunately very common, and it is how Nazis and slave traders get powerful. It is fine with me if people have honest disagreements with Bush, but the push to trash him just because it is fun and provides group identity is sociopathic and retarded.
Remember, Bush is a world leader, not some retarded child. Though, I see the difference as essentially minimal. He can take some people not liking him.
I understand this Bush hate cult, he has been unsuccessful in Iraq and Afghanistan, he may have failed to capture terrorists, lost America a lot of allies, overseen a time of financial disaster, curtailed Human rights, and made a few badly phrased comments.
You can't think badly about people for getting behind the idea that he may not be the best leader in the world. Even if they couldn't point to exact reasons why due to a lack of political interest.
Its important that Bush-style policies are reviled for a few decades. It'll stop people from following them. Not that it worked with Margaret Thatcher.
Oh please...Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
There is no "bandwagon." There is just a horrible president in the white house. Many of us knew it years ago. The rest are just slowly figuring it out as he makes it more and more obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by skysaw
Pompous comments.
Hating Bush is a safe zone. You can NEVER go wrong if you talk shit about Bush. There is also no limit to the seriousness of the shit talking. Nothing is out of line when insulting the current president. You could go on national TV and say he should be killed, and the audience would applaude you.
I have had this conversation with many other people. Due to my experience with Bush haters, I would say less than half of them actually know what they are talking about.
Sure. That's why I hate Bush... because it's "safe." :roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming
It sure wasn't very safe on 9/12/01, living in a Red state, no less. Trust me, I was just as vocal then as now.
So perhaps there is some other reason people hate him. Here are a few of my reasons:
1. He's done more to harm international relations than any other American in history.
2. He's done more to infringe on Americans' privacy than anyone since Hoover.
3. He launched the most pointlessly bloody war since Viet Nam, and did it illegaly
4. That damn goofy smirk permanently plastered on his face (hardly a good reason, but at least I'm being honest about it.)
I could list dozens of more reasons (will be happy to if you so request), but those are plenty enough to get my disdain.
If it were merely that, I would not have said what I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
Even if he is a horrible president, which I don't think he is, there is a certain degree of understandability in his policies. You can think they are incorrect and still not go into this maniacal group mentality hate fest that is so politically correct these days. Like I said, honestly disagreeing with him is one thing, but the level of personal hate against him and the shocking acceptability of it are way out of line, and the collective mentality behind it is a sign of something very dark in humanity.Quote:
Originally Posted by skysaw
Position 1: "I understand that Bush was given the Iraq WMD intelligence from many governments, the CIA, the Senate, and the Clinton Administration. It would be very serious if a terrorist enemy government had WMD's, considering the possibilities, as illustrated by 9/11. It would have been irresponsible of Bush not to act on the intelligence he was given in the post-9/11 era. I understand where he was coming from. However, I do not think the invasion of Iraq was warranted. After twelve years, we should have put in at least one more year of attempted diplomacy or else just taken our chances."
Position 2: "Ha ha, fuck Bush! Look at these gorillla pictures where they look like Hitler, I mean Bush. Ha ha ha! Damn Nazi. He is the real terrorist. I have seen some mere circumstantial evidence that proves beyond a reasonable doubt that 9/11 was a government job done so Bush and Cheney could get their oil mafia rich. (This is fun! :banana:) We haven't found weapons of mass destruction that are still active, so Bush LIED!!! He made up what he said based on so many intelligence officials saying the same thing before he was even famous. Hey, let's disagree very hatefully with every single policy of his, no matter what. Let's get together and play hippy in the streets. Are you in? All of the cool people at the coffee shop are doing it, so it's okay to be as hateful as you want to be. Woo hoo!!! FUCK BUSH FUCK BUSH FUCK BUSH FUCK BUSH!!!!!!! :boogie: :banana: :laugh: :goodjob: :breakitdown: :yumdumdoodledum: :aphiusiscrazy: :muffin: :dancingcow: :woohoo:"
I have been talking about Position 2, of course. It is insincere and sociopathic.
Regarding position 2, I do not fall in this category, and I agree it is not helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
However, since I've only seen this position played out on the internet and not among actual human beings, I didn't regard it as a trend significant enough to evoke the image of the grand bandwagon.
I do admit to having compared his face to a chimpanzee on more than one occasion, and I won't apologize for that. But it's not my fault the comparison is so easy to see.
It is all over the internet, college campuses (professors included), and a lot of the media (Keith Olbermann, Bill Maher, Jon Stewart, etc.). It might be sort of a fringe element, but it has a much stronger public presence than the more rational stances against Bush's policies.Quote:
Originally Posted by skysaw
Your post was not that bad this time your improving. Saying peace talks don't always work is only highlighting failure while going no-where special. But the truth is Discussion of policies to help eliminate war are superior and the next step towards success, and going somewhere. When you have peace talks I want to be clear to you that negotiating with terrorists is not the same as global and national peace talks. So quickly discard that idea from your mind. Unless of course your agenda lies somewhere else and the statement was a weapon against emerging logic to subdue the unveiling of illusion. In which case bring it on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Harrycombs
This odd out of place totally random outcast humor about the CIA and your account as well as hypnotizing people has me a bit suspicious considering your apparent lack of interest in any co-operation with anything to do with truth, it would entirely make sense. I would say again; A weapon against emerging logic to subdue the unveiling of illusion? Simply Bring it on, the faster we shall unveil. And Maybe.....if we search your old posts for bush we will find some absurd statements supporting him that we could verify and have a good laugh about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
Btw I have met Keith Olbermann and he is not fringe. He's what you call a proper journalist that actually does his own reporting for once unlike most that mindlessly read from a script given to them on a platter which they don't understand or care about.
I think you're a bit behind in the times. It's not so much a hate cult as a David Letterman joke fest with public awareness of a stupid president consensus.Quote:
Originally Posted by apachama
I see that you have also met this woman...Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:...Y/P1000044.JPG
I see that you have also read this book.
http://www.takeoverworld.info/images...or-dummies.jpg
Touchdown!Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...160_AA115_.jpg
Yes touchdown. Good boy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Universal Mind
I hate our discussing with terrorists policies. I support the FARC, for instance, and there is little chance of the US government backing down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
I have no idea what your talking about. Why would I want to subdue the unveiling of an illusion? And what illusion are you talking about :PQuote:
So quickly discard that idea from your mind. Unless of course your agenda lies somewhere else and the statement was a weapon against emerging logic to subdue the unveiling of illusion. In which case bring it on.
Also, what would you do about this war? Would you just pull the troops out immediately?
I don't know why would you? I said if that was your intention I didn't say it was. Lots of people have that intention for lots of reasons. Greed, selfishness, ignorance. The list goes on.Quote:
Why would I want to subdue the unveiling of an illusion?
I would need to do more research about what is going on and I'd have to be personally involved in it more closely to be able to make informed decisions. I understand enough to know what has happened was careless. Correcting the carelessness involves a more personal informed involvement of the details. Overall I would stop the war and uphold stability by creating a supportive environment.Quote:
what would you do about this war? Would you just pull the troops out immediately?
That is exactly what we are trying to do now. If you didnt have the insurgents, it would be very simple for us to create such an environment. They know it, thats why they stay, because disorder makes it easier for them to gain support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Lol, look at my avatar :P Also, why did my post make you think that my intention could be "subduing the unveiling of an illusion".Quote:
Originally Posted by Minervas Phoenix
Its not that simple.:roll:Quote:
Overall I would stop the war and uphold stability by creating a supportive environment.