guns

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Originally Posted by Howie

It saddens me to see the way our latest generations are being raised. (In America) It is no fault of their own. I don't know if you can really call it anybody's fault. It is a product of the environment that people grow up in. They are not brought up to understand fire arms in the same light as was the case generations ago. Much less respect them. Guns are not part of families heritages any more. A pastime? Respect for, or an understanding of firearms is not taught down from generation to generation any more. They are seen as weapons of violence and destruction in video games, television and in the news. This in turn will eventually lead to the demise of our second amendment.

I don't see how anybody who was raised with firearms and the many traditions that accompany them could truly ever convey what it is like to have honor for our gun rights. Not to a person that has never been around guns.

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I'll tell you whats interesting...

My dad relates stories of his childhood growing up in the 1940's and 50's. Then it was common place for kids to bring their guns to school on the bus and have them in their school lockers to go hunting with right after school.

People saw teenagers walking down the streets of the midwest and never gave it a second thought.

The guns were not the problem then, and nor are they now.

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

You should expand your awareness of the issue...


You are being quite naive

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Sure.

Great response to my statistics and arguments, by the way. You really made yourself look like a good informed well-educated person.

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Howie: Not to a person that has never been around guns.

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This is an important point I think. I cannot understand why people hate guns so much. Some argue safety. Comparatively, they are not dangerous. First you must load the cartridges into the magazine, then insert the magazine, then you have to release the safety, then pull the charge handle, then aim, fire, and finally you actually have to hit something, and that something must be a person. Even after all that, the chances of a fatal wound are slim. This is apparently all by accident. I will not believe this is a common occurence. Such is ridiculous. Irresponsible people will always kill, especially in cars. You don't hear about other things much because of the anti-gun agenda.

Some argue crime, and that is a better argument by far, though I still see it as being obsessive considering our population and the fact that more people die from other things that we should not need than guns. In the end though, I know that guns give me the ability to choose my fate, and to protect those who need protection. Regardless of all else, this is my motivation.

I here You.
I know it is often said but the statement is very true - When guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns. That being said, banning guns is not the answer. Accountability maybe? Some stiff penalties may deter a lot of the gun related crimes we see in the inner cities. There are always those cases where nothing is going to stop a violent crime. Again outlawing doesn't play a role.

We should have guns...It's are ammendment..but DON'T GIVE STUPID MOTHERFUCKERS guns...Just because they are 18...fuck..can we be any dumber?

You all hate guns because of violence they cause on the streets. Its true, gang violence causes a lot of deaths. But I challenge some army to invade the United States. Could you imagine the insurgency? You think the Iraq insurgency is bad?

Do none of you Americans wonder why it is that in gun-free European countries there is so little crime? And why it is not the case in those countries that criminals have gotten an advantage because of the gun-laws?

I am not saying gun-laws would certainly be completely and utterly awesome and great for America. But it is a pretty interesting question why America isn't as civil in regards of crime-levels, and what kind of faults in the system are responsible for that. Maybe it's just shit-poor education and the ghetto's, that make guns a necessary and lesser-of-two-evils part of American society.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Do none of you Americans wonder why it is that in gun-free European countries there is so little crime? And why it is not the case in those countries that criminals have gotten an advantage because of the gun-laws?

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Not really. On such things we have to form opinions because there are too many variables, and while you may very well be right, I certainly think our material excess and "me me me" philosophy here in the US is a major part of the problem. Without the mentality, the will to commit crimes does not exist. Again, all just my opinion.

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I am not saying gun-laws would certainly be completely and utterly awesome and great for America. But it is a pretty interesting question why America isn't as civil in regards of crime-levels, and what kind of faults in the system are responsible for that. Maybe it's just shit-poor education and the ghetto's, that make guns a necessary and lesser-of-two-evils part of American society.

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Perhaps. I admit that while it is a sad thing indeed that I feel naked without my weapons, it is a fact of life. I cannot be as I once was and walk around feeling safe in any situation. The stakes are just too high these days.

our forefathers wanted us the right to bare arms so we can fight an oppressive government. but come one people! this is 2008! times have changed

do you really think a gun is going to save you from the government? what backwards cave man logic is that? let's think about this for a moment, and think about all the advanced weapons the government has. they would own us at war.

but to even think that one day people will need guns to fight off an oppressive government is even nuttier than being a fundamentalist. our guns have done nothing but created crimes, death and suffering. we don't need guns to change our government, and all the greatest changes to our government have been brought through peaceful walks, peaceful speeches, peaceful demonstrations. and I am not trying to lighten how difficult that was.

what do you think the result would be if King said "I have a dream, and in this dream we brothers rise up against our government in firey arms and unleash the bloody justice of Christ onto those white oppressive leaders!!"

our country would be sooooo fucked up if that happened. no positive change comes through guns. just look at our aggressive attemps in the middle east. as others have said, you can't gun point freedom.

GET OUT OF THE STONE AGE!!

this is the information age!! change comes through informing the ignorant.

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Originally Posted by juroara

do you really think a gun is going to save you from the government? what backwards cave man logic is that?

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Save me? Perhaps, and perhaps not, but it is the principles that are important here.

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let's think about this for a moment, and think about all the advanced weapons the government has. they would own us at war

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That depends on many things. If there were enough of us armed, they would not stand a chance of winning short of annihilating us. The government would never get into a full scale war with it's citizens over this issue anyhow. As I have said before it is not about war, it is about the gun being a symbol of the balance of power.

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but to even think that one day people will need guns to fight off an oppressive government is even nuttier than being a fundamentalist.

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So you are saying that weapons are useless in war essentially. Revolutions were fought with what then?

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our guns have done nothing but created crimes, death and suffering. we don't need guns to change our government, and all the greatest changes to our government have been brought through peaceful walks, peaceful speeches, peaceful demonstrations. and I am not trying to lighten how difficult that was.

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Guns helped to forge this country; and guns defended it many times.

Peaceful means have their place, as Gandhi proved, but he would have been gassed without sympathy by the Nazi party. The point being that violence has it's place as well.

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what do you think the result would be if King said "I have a dream, and in this dream we brothers rise up against our government in firey arms and unleash the bloody justice of Christ onto those white oppressive leaders!!"

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See above.

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our country would be sooooo fucked up if that happened. no positive change comes through guns. just look at our aggressive attemps in the middle east. as others have said, you can't gun point freedom.

GET OUT OF THE STONE AGE!!

this is the information age!! change comes through informing the ignorant.

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Thank you. I will put down my club and learn to read starting now.

juroara, please watch this video:
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/s..._violence.html

It is quite obvious that violence has decreased prodigiously since the advent of the gun. I'm not saying that this is because of the gun, but it is strong evidence for guns maybe not being so bad. As for you fantasy of a government not becoming tyrannical, I refer you to Never's post.

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Originally Posted by juroara

our forefathers wanted us the right to bare arms so we can fight an oppressive government. but come one people! this is 2008! times have changed

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So you're saying that just because our government hasn't oppressed us yet, that it never will. Thats very dangerous thinking.

As for the rest of your post...Look. I am in the Army. I know what we can and can't do, to a limit. If Iraq and Afghanistan are giving us such a hard time, I GUARANTEE you an American insurgency would be 10 times worse or more. Our Army, Marines, Air Force, and Navy could NEVER take on the American civilian population. NEVER. And its because we can own weapons.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Do none of you Americans wonder why it is that in gun-free European countries there is so little crime? And why it is not the case in those countries that criminals have gotten an advantage because of the gun-laws?
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Hmmm, I do....

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Originally Posted by Half/Dreaming

So you're saying that just because our government hasn't oppressed us yet, that it never will. Thats very dangerous thinking.

As for the rest of your post...Look. I am in the Army. I know what we can and can't do, to a limit. If Iraq and Afghanistan are giving us such a hard time, I GUARANTEE you an American insurgency would be 10 times worse or more. Our Army, Marines, Air Force, and Navy could NEVER take on the American civilian population. NEVER. And its because we can own weapons.

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Indeed. And also, the biggest trump card you have in fighting wars overseas is the nuke, but that can't be used within the US because they'd be shitting in their own backyard. Although, I won't rule out a nuke being used once as a sort of Reichstag incident.

The fact that the US can toss nukes around like candy if it wanted to isn't what makes it a threat overseas, it has the most powerful, expensive military force. The artillery is what does it, not just that we have tanks but that we have more, better tanks than any particular enemy. As far as who could fight for longest, especially without going bankrupt, or who could respond to a problem fastest, the top force differs (China, Israel).

Within the US, though, the US military can still use its tanks, airplanes and all that expensive artillery to suppress a revolt or just downwright become a fascist dictatorship.

While those tanks would be a bitch, a counter insurgency would fail HARD in the US. The only thing they can do is slowly take away our rights so we don't even notice until it's too late, and rule by fear. If they try to rule by force instead of fear, it'd be warfare from harlem to washington heights. They'd be fuxed, USA would have the most impossible insurgency ever encountered. Think about it, in the ghetto people are already training against each other in guerrilla warfare. All those thugs that used to shoot each other are going to unite together and form an army of vicious motherfuckers.

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Originally Posted by Omnius Deus

While those tanks would be a bitch, a counter insurgency would fail HARD in the US. The only thing they can do is slowly take away our rights so we don't even notice until it's too late, and rule by fear. If they try to rule by force instead of fear, it'd be warfare from harlem to washington heights. They'd be fuxed, USA would have the most impossible insurgency ever encountered. Think about it, in the ghetto people are already training against each other in guerrilla warfare. All those thugs that used to shoot each other are going to unite together and form an army of vicious motherfuckers.

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You don't seem to understand how revolutions work. The longer and slower the buildup, the more violent the revolution is. At some the population being oppressed has a reality check. No failed fascist regime in history was ever not toppled by violent revolution.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Do none of you Americans wonder why it is that in gun-free European countries there is so little crime? And why it is not the case in those countries that criminals have gotten an advantage because of the gun-laws?

I am not saying gun-laws would certainly be completely and utterly awesome and great for America. But it is a pretty interesting question why America isn't as civil in regards of crime-levels, and what kind of faults in the system are responsible for that. Maybe it's just shit-poor education and the ghetto's, that make guns a necessary and lesser-of-two-evils part of American society.

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Lets not be so misleading, go look at some worldwide crime statistics involving all sorts of crimes, not just firearms.



The EU is far more laced with crime than The US overall. Suicide rates are way higher in the Eu than in the US , and poilce per capita in EU countries is also higher than in the US. Yet with all the cops and the absence of guns, one is still more likely to be a victim of crime in the EU than in the US.

And the lists like this go on and on.

Even then, there are way worse places in the world to live in relation to crime than either the US or the EU.

Step back and take in the big picture, the true picture. Not some slighted focus like you are purporting.

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Lets not be so misleading, go look at some worldwide crime statistics involving all sorts of crimes, not just firearms.



The EU is far more laced with crime than The US overall. Suicide rates are way higher in the Eu than in the US , and poilce per capita in EU countries is also higher than in the US. Yet with all the cops and the absence of guns, one is still more likely to be a victim of crime in the EU than in the US.

And the lists like this go on and on.

Even then, there are way worse places in the world to live in relation to crime than either the US or the EU.

Step back and take in the big picture, the true picture. Not some slighted focus like you are purporting.

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Uh, please look at the comparative population densities of Europe, and the USA (and its obvious implication on crime levels), before you continue on that conclusion. The bigger picture.

The area's (km2) of Europe and the USA are roughly the same (with Europe having a 5-10% larger land area than the USA). Whereas Europe has a staggering 730, 000, 000 population, comapred to the USA's 300, 000, 000. Giving Europe a population density of 70 (people per km2) to the USA's 30. Does this account for anything?

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Originally Posted by aorozco

this is a topic that i love to talk about. lots of people have so many different opinions about it (writing a paper) so throw me some ideas and arguments, so here goes:



are guns good for our country, or are they bad?

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Well, I think that guns or any kind of weapons are bad for the whole world. But since no one listens, guns are good for our country. We don't want to be the only country who doesn't have a weapon. We need to protect ourselves from war.

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Originally Posted by NonDualistic

Lets not be so misleading, go look at some worldwide crime statistics involving all sorts of crimes, not just firearms.



The EU is far more laced with crime than The US overall. Suicide rates are way higher in the Eu than in the US , and poilce per capita in EU countries is also higher than in the US. Yet with all the cops and the absence of guns, one is still more likely to be a victim of crime in the EU than in the US.

And the lists like this go on and on.

Even then, there are way worse places in the world to live in relation to crime than either the US or the EU.

Step back and take in the big picture, the true picture. Not some slighted focus like you are purporting.

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Do actually google something like 'us lower crime rate than europe'.

First 3 hits I found were about 'if we don't count blacks, America wins!'

You fucking racist.

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Originally Posted by Neruo

Do actually google something like 'us lower crime rate than europe'.

First 3 hits I found were about 'if we don't count blacks, America wins!'

You fucking racist.

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I just googled "World Crime Statistics" and found a load of information on all sorts of crime categories, general and per/capita as well.

Goebbels would be proud of you and your misinformation and propaganda.


You should take you jack boots off and let some of the blood circulate back into your head,,,,,,

Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck YOU

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Originally Posted by Аарон

Uh, please look at the comparative population densities of Europe, and the USA (and its obvious implication on crime levels), before you continue on that conclusion. The bigger picture.

The area's (km2) of Europe and the USA are roughly the same (with Europe having a 5-10% larger land area than the USA). Whereas Europe has a staggering 730, 000, 000 population, comapred to the USA's 300, 000, 000. Giving Europe a population density of 70 (people per km2) to the USA's 30. Does this account for anything?

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Sure it does. Maybe in denser populated areas it might make sense to curtail the availability of firearms, but by the same token if everyone was able to pak a gun and legally use it, crime would also plummet.
This is evidenced in the state by state statistics in the US. States with right to carry laws have significantly lower rates of crime that states that dont.

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Originally Posted by ClouD

Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck Fuck YOU

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Pointless arguing with oneSelf

Love

Does anyone else think that crime rates have more to do with morality and intelligence of the average person than availibility of guns? Of course guns play a role in the amount of crime, but it doesn't create or eliminate crime. MOst people who legally own guns in the US don't use them for crimes. If you ban guns, don't plan on criminals deciding to just turn their guns in.

Maybe a better way to reduce crime would be to fix the school system and work to reduce poverty.