Industrial society destroys mind and envirionment...take 2

[DrunkenArse]

I saw a thread from 2005 that got bumped. No offense to OP but it was drivel. Worse still, it was the worst kind of drivel: the kind that makes a bad argument for a good point. I'd like to get some things off my chest without bumping it again. Prepare for text overflow Industrial Society Destroys the mind. Yes. It has nothing to do with a rational thought and emotions being mutually exclusive. They aren't! It is a simple consequence of brain chemistry and atrophied and/or poorly expressed instincts. 1) our genes evolved to expect a certain ratio, around 4, of omega-6 fatty acids to omega-3 fatty acids. The agro-industrial complex has given us a modern ratio of around 12. Given the fact that it is well known that neurons with cell walls composed largely of omega-6 fatty acids don't fire as rapidly as those with omega-3's, it is little surprise that we see a proliferation of faulty brains. Simple EPA (one type of omega-3) supplementation has been shown to reduce all symptoms of schizophrenia. That's just supplementation, not a full correction of the ratio. Similar results apply to depression. 2) We evolved in a hunter-gatherer society. That can produce serious stress (i.e., "growing experiences")on our bodies and minds that have only sanitized or non-existent equivalents in an industrial society. Were you dragged from the women when you hit puberty, taken out into the woods/desert/mountains and circumcised with a flint knife and no anaesthetics after being told that if you flinched your soul would be consumed by a giant serpent but that afterwords, you would be treated like a man and be expected to behave as such and that you would have the full support of the tribe in doing so? Neither was I. We had to learn to be men the hard way. Most of us never get it. 3) Sex and entheogenic experiences are demonized by the dominant monotheistic religions. Even if the progressive wings of said religions are starting to lighten up, this demonization has sunk into the bedrock of our culture and is still widely propagated even though everybody does it anyway. Given the fact that these two things are pretty much a constant through modern hunter-gather societies, and it is standard practice to use these societies as a surrogate for studying our own past, we can conclude that these are natural things that we should embrace and encourage. And I'm just getting started. Thanks for listening. Hug a tree.

[Thief]

Industrial Society is not perfect but without it we couldn't support the 6 billion people alive. If reverted back to a hunter-gather society millions upon millions would die. How about you lead the way and revert back to a hunter-gather lifestyle to make a cheap political statement and tell us how much better your life is without non scarring tissue paper and antibiotics eh? Theres good and bad to Industrial society but the good outweighs the negative.

[DrunkenArse]

Unlike the OP of the original thread of this name, It is not my intent to convince anyone to revert back to a paleolithic or, in his case, neo-paleolithic lifestyle. There is value in understanding precisely how industrial and post-industrial 'civilizations' damage our bodies and minds: we can minimize the damage! For example, my first point is negated, within the context of modern cultures, simply by consuming more omega-3's. The third can be negated by not harshing our kids about sex and being honest with them about drugs. The rational is similar to that used by modern zoos. When attempting to keep a wild animal, in this case humans, in an environment that is radically different from that which there genes are evolved to cope with, the damage can be minimized by identifying the key features of the natural environment and providing some analog. If we can do that for a lion, then why shouldn't we do it for ourselves? We are animals, just like the lion. "you cant go back and you can't stand still / if the thunder don't get you then the lightning will!" -robert hunter EDIT: And I'm not sure that the good does outweigh the negative. Is systemic mental illness and loneliness, which do not exist in hunter gatherer societies, included in your calculations? Is quality of life more important then length of life?

[♥Mark]

...Were you dragged from the women when you hit puberty, taken out into the woods/desert/mountains and circumcised with a flint knife and no anaesthetics after being told that if you flinched your soul would be consumed by a giant serpent but that afterwords, you would be treated like a man and be expected to behave as such and that you would have the full support of the tribe in doing so? Neither was I. We had to learn to be men the hard way. What?! You mean that's not the hard way?

[Thief]

EDIT: And I'm not sure that the good does outweigh the negative. Is systemic mental illness and loneliness, which do not exist in hunter gatherer societies, included in your calculations? Is quality of life more important then length of life? I agree for the most part with your premise that those things dont exist in hunter gatherer societies, but we are past the point of no return right now. We have 6 billion souls on this planet earth that are dependent on our current way of life, without it the population of the earth would shrink dramatically resulting in unprecedented suffering and chaous. There is no going back. What about horrible illnesses such as Malaria and polio, and diabetes and penicities. These are all diseases that in our modern world we can cure but in hunter gatherer socieities are untreatable which means that 80% of children born into these type of societies wont make it too the age of 21. What?! You mean that's not the hard way? Was that an attempt at humor? /fail

[cygnus]

Industrial Society is not perfect but without it we couldn't support the 6 billion people alive. your logic is a little messed up. i would call you a dumb cunt because industrialization is something i have strong feelings about, but i'm not going to. ok, for one thing, it's over 6.7 billion - .7 billion is a lot of people. maybe if people would update their number of people alive tally then these people might realize how overpopulated we really are.... industrialization has contributed to there being such a large number, and in doing so our environment's capacity to sustain a population has fallen due to its degradation resulting from the same factors. see what i mean? not just industrial but corporate society (i guess they could be interchangeable) is fed by perpetual environmental degradation. exploiting natural resources is the entire basis for these practices - without it they wouldn't function; continual growth is a corporation's most basic function. to the OP, i think you could address this differently. this is such a broad issue, and your first three points were on topics that don't really have much import in relation to the thread title.

[Thief]

your logic is a little messed up. i would call you a dumb cunt because industrialization is something i have strong feelings about, but i'm not going to. ok, for one thing, it's over 6.7 billion - .7 billion is a lot of people. maybe if people would update their number of people alive tally then these people might realize how overpopulated we really are.... industrialization has contributed to there being such a large number, and in doing so our environment's capacity to sustain a population has fallen due to its degradation resulting from the same factors. see what i mean? not just industrial but corporate society (i guess they could be interchangeable) is fed by perpetual environmental degradation. exploiting natural resources is the entire basis for these practices - without it they wouldn't function; continual growth is a corporation's most basic function. to the OP, i think you could address this differently. this is such a broad issue, and your first three points were on topics that don't really have much import in relation to the thread title. Big fucken deal, im not keeping up with the stats. 6 billion or 6.7 billion whatever, close enough for the purpouse of this discussion. Now i could call you a dumb fuck for missing my point entirely, of course i'm aware of the horrible detremental effects Industrial Society has on this planet and the creatures (including humans) which live upon it. My point was that if we abandoned this form of civilization billions would perish in Famines because of Starvation and chaos. That was my point. I feel strongly about letting billions of people die, you twat.

[cygnus]

ok and another thing, our world is overpopulated also because of poverty; in third world nations infant mortality rates and familial needs in relation to food production have contributed to the way these places are increasingly voluminous. industrial society ENTIRELY REMOVES any semblance of subsistence, i.e. the earth provides all of your basic needs. imperialist america has tried to modernize and re-format the economic basis of such nations and in doing so has taken away their means of producing what they need and thrown them in the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid. so you can see that these factors are co-supportive. this topic encompasses A LOT of different things... and go a , God. the OP isn't suggesting we go back to the neolithic age - in fact, much of the way our mechanized society works is backwards and has destroyed the wisdom of indigenous cultures; western civilization is ripe with hubris and could be changed for the better in many many ways.

[Thief]

You seem well versed at the topic at hand and i do agree with what you have to stay. I just wanted to make sure you understood the point i was making. Unfortunately this format of Civilization is what we have, hopefully we can adjust to something more sustainable but i dont see it happening anyway since the major industrilized nations including the emerging powers -China,Brazil and Russia will keep the status quo for the near future. The only thing i can see changing it is a major collapse of civilization somehow. and Go and earn urself some more money with your dick sucking lips cygnus.

[cygnus]

Big fucken deal, im not keeping up with the stats. 6 billion or 6.7 billion whatever, close enough for the purpouse of this discussion. Now i could call you a dumb fuck for missing my point entirely, of course i'm aware of the horrible detremental effects Industrial Society has on this planet and the creatures (including humans) which live upon it. My point was that if we abandoned this form of civilization billions would perish in Famines because of Starvation and chaos. That was my point. I feel strongly about letting billions of people die, you twat. well maybe if you kept up with anything you might know what you're talking about. we're not abandoning a form of civilization and billions aren't going to perish in your famines, God. your argument is worthless.

[Thief]

You seem well versed at the topic at hand and i do agree with what you have to stay. I just wanted to make sure you understood the point i was making. Unfortunately this format of Civilization is what we have, hopefully we can adjust to something more sustainable but i dont see it happening anyway since the major industrilized nations including the emerging powers -China,Brazil and Russia will keep the status quo for the near future. The only thing i can see changing it is a major collapse of civilization somehow. And Go and earn urself some more money with your dick sucking lips cygnus, I know he wasnt suggesting that.

[cygnus]

i repent, God. i'm sorry i told you to go a . that was out of line. thanks for posting your smitation twice.

[DrunkenArse]

My point was that if we abandoned this form of civilization billions would perish in Famines because of Starvation and chaos. . I at least am not advocating that we abandon it, I'm advocating that we move beyond it your logic is a little messed up. i would call you a dumb cunt because industrialization is something i have strong feelings about, but i'm not going to. That was just an indirect way of calling him a dumb cunt. to the OP, i think you could address this differently. this is such a broad issue, and your first three points were on topics that don't really have much import in relation to the thread title. I didn't adress the envirionment issues..figured someone else would. As for my three points not addressing the mind issure, i think you missed the point. If we are not giving our genes the materials that they expect to build our brains properly, then we will have improperly built brains. The other two points go to pointing out that our instincts are often repressed or not supported by our culture. This is reminiscent of lions that pace back and forth in zoos all day. They found that they could keep prey animals and lions in two seperate but connected cages. They swap the animals between cages on a given schedule. The prey animals get to 'avoid' the lion and the lion gets to 'hunt' the prey because they smell each others presence. Marked increases in the well being in both animals were observed. Instincts must be exercised for an animal to be truly 'complete'. I agree for the most part with your premise that those things dont exist in hunter gatherer societies, but we are past the point of no return right now. We have 6 billion souls on this planet earth that are dependent on our current way of life, We are not dependant on our current way of life. We are dependant on any way of life that provides for our food, shelter and health. Are you saying that there are no possible improvements to be made? What about horrible illnesses such as Malaria and polio, and diabetes and penicities. These are all diseases that in our modern world we can cure but in hunter gatherer socieities are untreatable which means that 80% of children born into these type of societies wont make it too the age of 21. l Again, it is irrelevant what paleolithic shamans could have cured. We can cure them. All I'm saying is that we should find ways to be 'complete' in the zoo that we've created for ourselves. We are still wild animals. EDIT: I think it was actually a tiger that I referenced above but the point remains the same

[Thief]

i repent, God. i'm sorry i told you to go a . that was out of line. thanks for posting your smitation twice. However many times it takes for it to sink in your thick skull. Oh and i apologize for making fun of the way you make your living...It's not up to me to judge.... I at least am not advocating that we abandon it, I'm advocating that we move beyond it And i was pointing out the hypicrocy in criticicing our current system when it supports so many people that otherwise wouldn't be able to survive. But now that you've expanded on your point, i see that it is much better than what we have if the guidelines that you have suggested are followed.

[cygnus]

I didn't adress the envirionment issues..figured someone else would. As for my three points not addressing the mind issure, i think you missed the point. If we are not giving our genes the materials that they expect to build our brains properly, then we will have improperly built brains. The other two points go to pointing out that our instincts are often repressed or not supported by our culture. This is reminiscent of lions that pace back and forth in zoos all day. They found that they could keep prey animals and lions in two seperate but connected cages. They swap the animals between cages on a given schedule. The prey animals get to 'avoid' the lion and the lion gets to 'hunt' the prey because they smell each others presence. Marked increases in the well being in both animals were observed. Instincts must be exercised for an animal to be truly 'complete'. ok i see what you mean - i couldn't avoid ranting about this kind of thing. it is a very interesting issue, i just assumed you would cover both sides at first... like i said, this encompasses a lot, so i'd like to hear more specifically about the mind aspect. i could definitely see this coming into play in relation to our justice system and overcrowding in jails. i look forward to hearing more, thanks.

[cygnus]

What?! You mean that's not the hard way? Was that an attempt at humor? /fail that was funny. goddammit you're a douche.

[DuB]

Cygnus and G-O-D, I suggest you both verse yourselves in the forum rules and regulations. These vicious and completely unnecessary personal attacks will not be tolerated. If I see one more similar outburst from either of you, you'll be taking a forced vacation from Dream Views. If you have questions about the matter you may send them to me in a private message (not in this thread). DuB

[Licity]

I saw a thread from 2005 that got bumped. No offense to OP but it was drivel. Worse still, it was the worst kind of drivel: the kind that makes a bad argument for a good point. I'd like to get some things off my chest without bumping it again. Prepare for text overflow Industrial Society Destroys the mind. Yes. It has nothing to do with a rational thought and emotions being mutually exclusive. They aren't! It is a simple consequence of brain chemistry and atrophied and/or poorly expressed instincts. 1) our genes evolved to expect a certain ratio, around 4, of omega-6 fatty acids to omega-3 fatty acids. The agro-industrial complex has given us a modern ratio of around 12. Given the fact that it is well known that neurons with cell walls composed largely of omega-6 fatty acids don't fire as rapidly as those with omega-3's, it is little surprise that we see a proliferation of faulty brains. Simple EPA (one type of omega-3) supplementation has been shown to reduce all symptoms of schizophrenia. That's just supplementation, not a full correction of the ratio. Similar results apply to depression. 2) We evolved in a hunter-gatherer society. That can produce serious stress (i.e., "growing experiences")on our bodies and minds that have only sanitized or non-existent equivalents in an industrial society. Were you dragged from the women when you hit puberty, taken out into the woods/desert/mountains and circumcised with a flint knife and no anaesthetics after being told that if you flinched your soul would be consumed by a giant serpent but that afterwords, you would be treated like a man and be expected to behave as such and that you would have the full support of the tribe in doing so? Neither was I. We had to learn to be men the hard way. Most of us never get it. 3) Sex and entheogenic experiences are demonized by the dominant monotheistic religions. Even if the progressive wings of said religions are starting to lighten up, this demonization has sunk into the bedrock of our culture and is still widely propagated even though everybody does it anyway. Given the fact that these two things are pretty much a constant through modern hunter-gather societies, and it is standard practice to use these societies as a surrogate for studying our own past, we can conclude that these are natural things that we should embrace and encourage. And I'm just getting started. Thanks for listening. Hug a tree. I would have to disagree with you on all points, assuming we are both thinking of "industrial society" as having come about 1) Source? If this is indeed true, evolution will allow us to adapt to a different fatty acid ratio(hard to have kids if you're locked in an insane asylum) 2) To quote Mark75 in all seriousness, "What?! You mean that's not the hard way?" 3) Religion has been around a LOT longer than industry has. As you said, religion's grip on culture is slowly lessening and only time is needed to free any remaining cultural associations.

[DrunkenArse]

I would have to disagree with you on all points, assuming we are both thinking of "industrial society" as having come about 1) Source? If this is indeed true, evolution will allow us to adapt to a different fatty acid ratio(hard to have kids if you're locked in an insane asylum) http://www.woodheadpublishing.com/en...px?bookID=1435 gives an even wider difference for the ratios then I quoted. It concludes that a healthy ratio is no more then 4 (which i've seen many places) but that we evolved with a ratio of 1. It addresses health concerns other than neuron construction. http://www.schizophrenia.com/treatments.php#epa This lists studies on the efficacy of Omega-3's in treating schizophrenia. Some show it working, some don't. There is more too it then that one dietary component but I was trying to keep my initial post short. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sourc...52CLh51r_Fop8Q shows omega-3 supplementation being useful in adhd and high functioning autism I'm not able to find a reference for omega-3's making better neurons but here's one on them creating better brains. I'll find my source and post later though... http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/6/1570 Putting it off too evolution is besides the point in my opinion. There are lot's of kids with schizophrenic parents: it manifests well after sexual maturity. At anyrate, there are all sorts of other health problems associated with this one dietary point and most of them occur well after sexual maturity and so are only slightly influenced by natural selection. I'm more concerned with the well being of people that are alive today. We could be waiting a long time for the right mix of genes to emerge and then become prevalent. 2) To quote Mark75 in all seriousness, "What?! You mean that's not the hard way?" Given the amount of physiologically adult men that beat their wives and children I would say it that, yes, that is in fact the easy way: It has a near 100% percent success rate. I had a giggle too though. It's sort of like fight club where they had the homework assignment to try to start a fight with a random stranger: it was almost impossible. Most 'men' live their lives in fear. Being forced to face it is paramount - otherwise you have to do it yourself. ahh, but I just referenced fiction in a serious discussion.... 3) Religion has been around a LOT longer than industry has. As you said, religion's grip on culture is slowly lessening and only time is needed to free any remaining cultural associations. You caught me there. This point applies equally well to my first point - the issue with fatty acid ratios emerged in the neolithic and is the result of massive grain consumption. I titled the thread poorly. The other thread of the same name inspired me. Call me a troll.... A better title would be "understand the wild human within yourself and make him/her happy: your own well being will follow"

[juroara]

if you want a better word to describe the problem with our society, its not industry. its consumerism. Industry is power. If you want a great empire, you use industry. Doesn't matter if you proclaim yourself a Sun-God or the president. Consumerism on the other hand is about money. Privately controlled money. Its a great trick, purposefully and masterfully delivered to get us to live a certain way for the benefit of the few, at the cost of the majority. The ending result is we have been fooled into thinking we need crap we actually don't need. You need FOUR EARTHS for everyone to live like an american. That's how much crap we consume. Understand, this over-consumption is NOT because of population. That's a LIE. It is because consumerism purposefully makes us consume MORE than we need. What better illustrates our over-consumption than the obese american? If anyone really takes the time to examine where your fast food comes from, how the animals were treated, the damage to the environment, how the employees were treated, and the crap you are being fed *quite literally actually, fecal matter in your food* - no one can eat it. No one. You can only willfully consume fast food if you willfully remain ignorant to where this food came from. Consumerism purposefully keeps us ignorant. It wants us to buy, buy, buy, consume, consume, consume. It doesn't care what it did to the environment, it doesn't care what damage it had on the locals, or you, your health, it doesn't even care about your government, or its laws. It cares for only one thing, and one thing only. MONEY. It's corrupt, it lies, it cheats, it steals. It's even given people cancer and other diseases. You might hate anti fast food talks, because maybe you feel you need to live off of fast food. Certainly many do. They need to eat fast food because they don't have the time to cook for themselves. And I agree with you, something is stealing our time away. But why do we have busy work schedules anyways? Why do we have many thousands of jobs that tell us we have half an hour to find and consume food? Or worse? Tell us WHEN we can eat? As if we are machines that can control our biological needs? Why do jobs ask the human body to confirm to a work schedule, rather than the schedule confirm to the needs of the human body? Or being for that matter? This is the biggest difference between the modern man and the primitive man. The job of the primitive man was there to satisfy the needs of his body. The leisure time of the primitive man was there to satisfy the needs of his mind. And no one had more leisure time than the primitive man. There was MORE leisure time than job time. Its just the opposite now. But why do we do it? When the job originally was for the human? How did things get reversed where the human is a slave for a job? It's reversed because the engines of our civilizations, economy, is about MONEY. And not human beings. How many work places will close early if they don't have enough employees to fill in the shift? How many will close early if say their closers called in sick? 99% of the jobs that I can think of, will never close if they lack employees to fill in those hours. Instead they force other employees to fill in the hours. Why? Because the job says "our need to make money is more important than your needs as a human being" It's all for the pursuit of happiness. At least consumerism has told us that's why we do it. Of course, that's a lie. We work our asses off for more money. And we want more money to buy more things. Because we need more things to be happy. Consumerism tells us we can buy happiness. Only very recently is america waking up and realizing consumerism doesn't work. And has left many of us working very hard and recieving very little pay for our hard work. This race to the bottom is all apart of consumerism. As paying employees CRAP keeps your items CHEAP. Which means you get to buy MORE CHEAP CRAP. (WALMART) Why is it now that we are beginning to realize that our consumerist pursuit of happiness doesn't work? Look at our ecological crises. What have we learned when we destroy our natural support systems? We destroy ourselves. Well consumerism has attacked it's own support system. It's support system is the human being. The american economy currently as it is, is a consumerist economy. And our economy is going to fall so long as it remains a consumerist economy. Because consumerism doesn't give a fuck about it's support system, you. (Even the attack on marijauna, at the core, is about MONEY. not religion.) Theres good news for everyone! Industry doesn't go against the natural human being. Technology doesn't go against the natural human being, since the creation of tools have always been with us. And everyone on this earth can live a happy life with all the modern advantages without damaging our support systems. So population is NOT the problem. But something has to change. What we need is an economy that isn't centered around money, but is centered around the human being, and the needs of the human being. Our need to eat healthy food. Our needs to have a regular sleep pattern. Our need to have leisure time. Our need to be creative and innovative. And our need to have healthy natural support systems all around us. This isn't a hippies dream. This is reality. The reality is we are nature. We have real natural needs. Physical and Mental! And anything that depends on the human being to survive, such as economy, will fall if the needs of the human being are negated. And it has been negated. And it is falling.

[Zhaylin]

Juroara. Very well said. Breaking the consumerist cycle seems almost an impossibility though. I'm guilty of eating too much fast food but posts like your have opened my eyes and I have greatly curbed the habit. But video gaming and movie watching is still something I consume in large amounts without giving anything in return (I don't work). I think it was you who even broke down how consumers affect the environment and market through the transportation of goods. That REALLY opened my eyes and has effected some of the things I buy and how often I visit the store. G-O-D and Cygnus, do y'all know each other apart from the forums? I just had the impression that some of your argument was a bit of an "inside joke". AaronAsterling, GREAT thread! I intend to look at those links later tonight. Thanks for all the info.

[Licity]

Putting it off too evolution is besides the point in my opinion. There are lot's of kids with schizophrenic parents: it manifests well after sexual maturity. At anyrate, there are all sorts of other health problems associated with this one dietary point and most of them occur well after sexual maturity and so are only slightly influenced by natural selection. I'm more concerned with the well being of people that are alive today. We could be waiting a long time for the right mix of genes to emerge and then become prevalent. I'll have to give you that one. Natural selection won't help us here. Given the amount of physiologically adult men that beat their wives and children I would say it that, yes, that is in fact the easy way: It has a near 100% percent success rate. I had a giggle too though. It's sort of like fight club where they had the homework assignment to try to start a fight with a random stranger: it was almost impossible. Most 'men' live their lives in fear. Being forced to face it is paramount - otherwise you have to do it yourself. ahh, but I just referenced fiction in a serious discussion.... I'm a little confused. What exactly are you referring to? What do you refer to with the phrase "being a man"? Beating wives and children are acts usually considered caused by anger issues, which can be attributed to your own above point(neurological disorders) You caught me there. This point applies equally well to my first point - the issue with fatty acid ratios emerged in the neolithic and is the result of massive grain consumption. I titled the thread poorly. The other thread of the same name inspired me. Call me a troll.... A better title would be "understand the wild human within yourself and make him/her happy: your own well being will follow" It's not the fault of industry that we eat a lot of grain. That was just the crop the hunter-gatherer humans had available when developing agriculture. I agree that there are many flaws in society, but I feel that there is a way to address them and still maintain an approximation of life today. Genetic engineering is still an emerging science, we may one day have GM grain that provides Omega-3. Think about it - Hunter-gatherer society was many, many years in practice before agriculture. I bet that way of life had its problems too, before they could be fixed. The modern way of life is still in its infancy and can become much better. It's just that the humans of now are far more intelligent than Joe the Paleolithic Shaman and we are recognizing these problems early. A guess as to why we are still slow in coming - most mainstream religions deny the existence of "wild humans" - as far as the most serious are concerned, the industrial way of life was and is the only way of life ever to exist.

[tkdyo]

ok and another thing, our world is overpopulated also because of poverty; in third world nations infant mortality rates and familial needs in relation to food production have contributed to the way these places are increasingly voluminous. industrial society ENTIRELY REMOVES any semblance of subsistence, i.e. the earth provides all of your basic needs. imperialist america has tried to modernize and re-format the economic basis of such nations and in doing so has taken away their means of producing what they need and thrown them in the bottom of the socio-economic pyramid. so you can see that these factors are co-supportive. this topic encompasses A LOT of different things... and go a , God. the OP isn't suggesting we go back to the neolithic age - in fact, much of the way our mechanized society works is backwards and has destroyed the wisdom of indigenous cultures; western civilization is ripe with hubris and could be changed for the better in many many ways. despite your high and mighty disposition I must say that once I hear any rant containing the phrase "imperialist america", I loose all ability to take that person seriously anymore back to the thread at hand, I agree with the OP that we can and should move beyond what our society is doing now. fortunately, it is in fact quite easy to think of ways to do this and decide our direction in life because we dont have to worry about our basic needs. I notice most people's points are about third world countries. Well, if we spread the resources more evenly we wouldnt have those, and we could give everyone that feeling and together we could find the more natural solutions to our problems. Anyways, thats my take. Everyone rants and raves about it but I eat plenty of fast food, went to public school, yadda yadda and turned out quite content and healthy.

[DrunkenArse]

if you want a better word to describe the problem with our society, its not industry. its consumerism. It's semi-domestication actually, consumerism is a consequence of that, imo. We've been domesticated by our ideas but they have so far, not radically changed our genetic makeup. Consumerism on the other hand is about money. Privately controlled money. Its a great trick, purposefully and masterfully delivered to get us to live a certain way for the benefit of the few, at the cost of the majority. The ending result is we have been fooled into thinking we need crap we actually don't need. You need FOUR EARTHS for everyone to live like an american. That's how much crap we consume. Well the people on top of this don't really give a fuck how many earths it would take: they're not interested in everybody living like an american. What american would work in their sweatshops?! And money is really just a quantification of power. What we need is an economy that isn't centered around money, but is centered around the human being, and the needs of the human being. Our need to eat healthy food. Our needs to have a regular sleep pattern. Our need to have leisure time. Our need to be creative and innovative. And our need to have healthy natural support systems all around us. This isn't a hippies dream. I may call you a dreamer, but you're not the only one I'm a little confused. What exactly are you referring to? What do you refer to with the phrase "being a man"? Beating wives and children are acts usually considered caused by anger issues, which can be attributed to your own above point(neurological disorders) I'm more than a little confused I would say that the importance of rituals like the one I mentioned is that they exercise the fight/flight response. The fight/flight response is governed largely by the amygdala which is also responsible for anger. Having a well controlled and properly directed fight/flight response is essential to being a man: of that, I'm certain. Genetic engineering is still an emerging science, we may one day have GM grain that provides Omega-3. Think about it - Hunter-gatherer society was many, many years in practice before agriculture. I bet that way of life had its problems too, before they could be fixed. The modern way of life is still in its infancy and can become much better. Genetic engineering has great potential, but for the time being I take the view that It's too dangerous in most cases. Bananas are a great example of a case where it's not, but even there people are unwilling to wade through the rationale and allow it. It's just that the humans of now are far more intelligent than Joe the Paleolithic Shaman and we are recognizing these problems early. I would hardly say that we are more intelligent. We simply have a different world view that allows us to do more neat tricks. I'm going to have to be a cultural relativist on the issue of intelligence. Tthe ability to remember and recognize different plants, animals, animal tracks, tool making methods, fire making methods, etc all indicate intelligence in line with our own. We apply it differently but, unless you're the dictator of north korea, you didn't invent or discover any of the the things that allow you to apply your intelligence differently. EDIT: I meant "you" in the general abstract sense, not you in particular, Licity. A guess as to why we are still slow in coming - most mainstream religions deny the existence of "wild humans" - as far as the most serious are concerned, the industrial way of life was and is the only way of life ever to exist. Darwin and Wallace should be saints.

[Ardent Lost]

Given the amount of physiologically adult men that beat their wives and children I would say it that, yes, that is in fact the easy way: It has a near 100% percent success rate. I had a giggle too though. It's sort of like fight club where they had the homework assignment to try to start a fight with a random stranger: it was almost impossible. Most 'men' live their lives in fear. Being forced to face it is paramount - otherwise you have to do it yourself. ahh, but I just referenced fiction in a serious discussion.... So taking a method of raising children out of its context and applying it to a totally different culture seems like a sound idea to you? We already have instances of young boys being forced to behave like men, being terrorised into thinking that if they don't behave in a certain way they will be made to learn. This is one of the very roots of grown men having warped ideas of what manhood is. The saviour of manhood in our societies' depends upon men understanding things such as physical strength and lack of emotion do not equate to manhood. Not even more force and terror. It may work for some hunter-gatherer societies, and good for them, but it won't work for more "advanced"/"developed" societies. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't take one aspect of any society, leaving all of the other elements behind, and think it's going to have the same kind of "success" in a completely different society. Plus, are you purposefully neglecting the violence inherent in many hunter-gatherer societies? Many of them are incredibly peaceful, but there have also been hunter-gatherers who have been incredibly violent, and that violence has been intrinsically linked to manhood for them. So once again, you can't isolate a particular instance of child raising within a hunter-gatherer group and apply it to the idea of hunter-gatherer societies in general. I don't know if that's what you're suggesting, I'm getting mixed messages from your posts, but if it is it's misrepresentative. I would say that the importance of rituals like the one I mentioned is that they exercise the fight/flight response. The fight/flight response is governed largely by the amygdala which is also responsible for anger. Having a well controlled and properly directed fight/flight response is essential to being a man: of that, I'm certain. I disagree entirely.