Fitna

[Moonbeam]

Nobody posted this yet? (Dutch film about Islam). Warning: Don't watch if easily disturbed by gory stuff. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...02968312745410

[Universal Mind]

That is a great illustration of what Islamofascism is really about. It is what I have been saying in every thread we have had on the subject in this forum. There is nothing innocent about what they are trying to do. They do not just want Americans out of their "holy land". They want to rule the world with a very oppressive form of government and kill all non-Muslims. If you are non-Muslim, that includes you. Don't think for two seconds they are going to like you a bit more just because you trashed George Bush's policies on the internet. They want you dead. Think really hard about who your friends and enemies are in this.

[Sornaensis]

Go Holland!

[Kushna Mufeed]

Wow, when I started writing this, I didn’t at all expect it to turn out this long. I wonder how many people will read through it all. I wonder how many people will tear it apart, and analyze it piece by piece, just like I did to that film. First off, let me start off by saying that the Qur'an speaks harshly about disbelievers. But this is by no means considered justification to go out and kill them. It's just Allah expressing how much he hates those who defy him. How the Muslims are told to treat the disbelievers is completely different. I'm going to break this down, piece-by-piece. Surah 8, verse 60 is indeed as the video has stated. But let's look a few verses before and after that: [56]They are those with whom you have made a covenant, but they break the covenant every time and they do not fear Allah. [57]So if you gain mastery over them in war, punish them severely in order to disperse those who are behind them, so that they learn a lesson. [58]If you fear treachery from any people throw back (their covenant) to them (so as to be) on equal terms (that there will be no more covenant between you and them). Certainly Allah does not like the treacherous. [59]And let not those that disbelieve think that they can outstrip (escape from the punishment). Verily, they will never be able to save themselves (from Allah's punishment.) [60]And make ready against them the steeds of war to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others besides whom, you may not know but Allah does know. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah shall be repaid unto you, and you shall not be treated unjustly. [61]But if they incline to peace, you also incline to it, and trust in Allah. Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Knower. [62]And if they intend to deceive you, then verily, Allah is All-Sufficient for you. He it is Who has supported you with His Help and with the believers. A different translation, but still the same message is conveyed. "Enemies of Allah" does not mean disbelievers in general, it means those who actively fight against the Muslims and Islam.The verse has been taken out of context. These enemies spoken about are ones who have made covenants and peace treaties, but over and over again break them. And even so, in verse 61, it clearly says that they must make peace if the enemy wishes. Need I say that this does not mean killing innocent civilians? These conditions only apply in a state of war. Is there anything at all wrong with that? The terrorists, like al-Qaeda, and the creators of this film have interpreted the verse out of context. This is not what the Qur'an teaches. This is not what the Prophet Muhammad taught. This is not Islam. I have no idea how Surah 4, Verse 56 (which describes Hell) relates to Muslims hating the Jews. All I know is that Allah mentioning His punishment is no grounds for Muslims to exact it on people. I’d like to mention an interesting fact about the Qur’an. Whenever Hell is mentioned, Paradise is mentioned directly afterwards, and vice versa: [56]Surely those who disbelieved in Our Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), We shall burn them in Fire. As often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for other skins that they may taste the punishment. Truly, Allah is Ever Most Powerful, All-Wise. [57]But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allah – Islamic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to the Gardens under which rivers flow, abiding therein forever. Therein they shall have purified mates, and We shall admit them to shades wide and ever deepening. OK, now on to the hatred between Muslims and Jews. It has been prophesized that the Muslims and the Jews will have a war near the end of time. This, however, is by no means any reason for Muslims to hate and persecute Jews for the time being, as we are not in the state of war, and even so it would be forbidden to kill anyone except those armed against them. The Muslims who think otherwise are mistaken. If they were right, how come the Jews were able to seek refuge in Muslim lands when they were being persecuted by the Christians? The inflammation of hate we see nowadays has been caused by the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Can you really blame of them? Of course you can; you’ve been watching too much CNN. I think I can explain why the little girl called Jews monkeys and apes. There is a story in the Qur’an about a specific group of Jews who angered Allah so much (I can’t remember what they did. Maybe they killed a Prophet.) that He turned them into pigs and apes. This little girl was probably told by her parents that this meant that all Jews are monkeys and apes. Again, not what Islam teaches. Those people who were with the posters praising Hitler and whatnot are fools. I’ve read accounts of Muslims who were laughing at the Jews who were being prosecuted, and a German General turning to him and saying, “What are you laughing at? You’re next.” In fact, a number of Muslims were executed during the holocaust, because they were circumcised and the Nazi’s didn’t believe they weren’t Jews. Well, Surah 46, Verse 4 was a doozy of a misquote. They only put in the beginning of the verse. Let’s put it in proper context, shall we? [1]Those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from the path of Allah, He will render their deeds vain. [2]But those who believe and do righteous good deeds, and believe in that which is sent down to Muhammad – for it is the truth from their Lord – He will expiate them from their sins, and will make good their state. [3]This is because those who disbelieve follow falsehood, while those who believe follow the truth from their Lord. Thus does Allah set forth for mankind their parables. [4]So, when you meet those who disbelieve (in battle), smite their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time for) either generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (you are commanded), but if it had been Allah's Will, He himself could have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight) in order to test some of you with others. But those who are killed in the way of Allah, he will never let their deeds get lost. In the video, they translated it as “until you have caused a bloodbath among them”, rather than “until you have killed and wounded many of them.” This is a crude translation, and an obvious attempt at making the Qur’an look bad. It also, again, leaves out the fact that this is talking about killing in the state of war. There is no talk of killing innocent civilians. Those who disbelieve, and hinder (men) from the path of truth Basically, this is talking about people who are no giving the Muslims to right to freedom of belief. Anyone nowadays would say the Muslims were justified to fight against such people. Again, just in the way this video has twisted the verses, so have these Muslim fanatics. Surah 4, Verse 89 cannot be fully understood unless we also take Verse 88. [88]Then what is the matter with you that you are divided into two parties about the hypocrites? Allah has cast them back (to disbelief) because of what they have earned. Do you want to guide him whom Allah has made go astray? And he whom Allah has made to go astray, you will never find for him any way (of guidance). [89]They wish that you reject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus you all become equal. So take not friends from them, till they emigrate in the way of Allah (to Muhammad). But if they turn back (from Islam), take them and kill them wherever you find them, and take neither friends nor helpers from them. Once again, this is not talking about any disbelievers, this is talking about hypocrites. People who pretend to be Muslim so they can try to corrupt it from within. This has happened, and this is why there are so many sects of Muslims. There are reasons for killing people who convert to Islam and then turn away from it. One is to let people know that you can’t mess around with Islam. If you are going to convert, you have to be 100%, absolutely certain, with no doubt what so ever that you want to convert Islam. The second reason is to avoid confusion among the Muslims, as people converting to Islam one day and leaving it the next would do. As far as I know, someone who is born into Islam is allowed to leave the religion. But, the punishing of those who apostatizes is still not permissible. There are two kinds of obligations in Islam: the obligation of the individual (i.e. daily prayers, fasting, etc.) and the obligation of the system. Since there is no Islamic State anywhere in the world right now, you cannot carry out the duties of the State. Wow. Surah 8, Verse 39 wasn’t taken out of context, but it was misinterpreted. [39]And fight against them until there is no more disbelief, and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do. Yes, this sounds cruel, but it does not justify Muslims doing what it says. The majority of scholars agree that the time when this will happen is when Jesus will descend from heaven. Yeah, they believe he’s going to be on their side, not the Christians. Anywho, there is no justification for Muslims to be carrying this out as of now. Furthermore, there is no global conspiracy that I know of for Muslims to take over the world, and trust me, I would know. Do I believe that Muslims will end up ruling America, UK and Europe like one of those guys said? Probably, but it won’t be a hostile takeover. When you consider the difference between how much non-Muslims and Muslims are reproducing, and how many conversions to Islam there are every year (I believe the number is in the 100,000s), it’s inevitable. The whole “Freedom Go To Hell”…well, I’m not entirely certain, but let me give you my take on it. I’m under the impression that Western society and it’s members has taken freedom to an extreme. They’ve gone from little freedom, to freedom to do anything. There’s too much ‘freedom to’ and not enough ‘freedom from’. With this freedom, people are only following their whims and desires, something that Islam warns against. That is probably where the phrase spawns from. What exactly is wrong with building mosques and dressing in the veil, I don’t know. Freedom of religion should allow people to build their own mosques. If someone’s religion tells them to dress a certain way, they should be allowed to. Is this video against the increase in the number of Muslims in Europe? What’s wrong with multiculturalism? Killing someone in your family for fornicating or adulterating is not justified in Islam either. Such a matter would have to be taken up with the courts. In an Islamic court, you would need 4 witnesses who actually saw the two in the act of intercourse. Am I to understand the creators of this video, and the government of the Netherlands view adultery as legal? It’s legal to go against your wedding vows? I’m sorry, but that is just wrong. Homosexuality is probably the one thing that Muslims and non-Muslims will never agree on. The main reason that adultery and homosexuality are considered crimes in Islam is that Islam places a lot of emphasis on the family. Adultery destroys the family, and Homosexuality, well, there is no family…or there didn’t used to be. Another reason that Islam is against extra-marital sex is that it gives every child the right to have and know their mother and father. Yes, I realize that the punishments for these actions are harsh, but that is the kind of emphasis Islam has on a well structured family. And again, these punishments can’t be carried out unless there is an Islamic State, and then there is the difficulty of producing 4 eye witnesses to the act. The Islamic State’s job isn’t to hunt down and kill adulterers and homosexuals. If people keep on the low, nothing will happen to them. It’s hard to prove someone is gay. Near impossible if they don’t want to be found out. Yes, Muslims do believe that the other political systems are wrong, but that does not mean they go out after congregation and crusade against members of the Socialist Party. Why do people have the perception that if I believe someone is wrong, I can’t coexist with them harmoniously? I don’t believe in dictatorship, yet I visit Syria every year without trouble. I don’t think smoking cigarettes is right, yet half my friends smoke. Why can Muslims not preach in the sanctity of their mosques about what we do not believe. It is not enough to talk only about what I believe, but also what other views I don’t believe and why I don’t believe them. The images of bloody children and women being killed do not represent Islam in any way shape or form. These are the actions of people whose image of Islam has been twisted in one way or another. Most of the news clippings, if they hold any truth, cannot be justified either. I’m just going to point out a few I want to comment on. The ones I don’t probably can’t be justified, and do not represent Islam’s teachings. The stupidest of the bunch is probably that whole “Muhammad the Teddy Bear” episode in Sudan. Just explain to the woman the situation. I’m sure she would have been more than happy to rename it. And what about the kids? They’re the ones who wanted to name it Muhammad in the first place? Shouldn’t they be punished too? “We do not agree with freedom of speech, because we denounce democracy.” That has got to be the most sickening of the lot. Islam does not call for dictatorship. The majority of the people have to be pleased with the current leader. If they are not, then a new one should be anointed. Freedom of speech IS allowed in Islam. If someone wants to publish an article trying to prove Islam is wrong and false, under the Islamic state, he cannot be stopped. That is as long as he is arguing against it academically, and not just bashing it like those Danish cartoons. What’s wrong with the school closing on Muslim holidays? They close for Christian ones. What’s wrong with a free trip to Makkah if you’re going to Islamic school? No, really. That pisses me off how they’re showing it like it’s a bad thing. What is wrong with going to Makkah when you’re at an Islamic school? It’s the holiest place in the world for Muslims! What exactly is wrong with Turkish being taught at schools? Besides, Turkish isn’t really considered an Islamic language. If anything, Arabic is. What’s the matter with Imams getting in? With the increase in the Muslim population, they need more Imams. If there are mosques under the spell of radical Muslim groups, I haven’t noticed them over here, except for that one in Toronto. But that was just a group of them. Not like it was every kid in the mosque was involved with that. And there are A LOT more than 17 kids in that mosque, believe me. An Imam legalizing violence against gays has no right to do so. As I said before, such punishments cannot be carried out, unless there is an Islamic State in place. “Girls still genitally mutilated.” What? This has absolutely nothing, what so ever, to do with Islam. You will not find a verse or saying of the Prophet justifying it. “Muslims hinder doctors taking care of women.” This, of course, should not be the case. It is ideal for a Muslim woman to find a female doctor, but if there are none available, then she has to be seen by a male doctor. In Islam, the forbidden becomes permissible in extreme situations like this. For example, if you’re starving to death, and the only food around is pork, you’re allowed to eat it. What exactly is wrong with having an outlet that Muslims can invest without worrying about it being forbidden? In Islam, investment is allowed, but you can only invest in a company if it’s not involved with anything that would be forbidden in Islam. For example, you can’t invest in a liquor store or a porn shop. But it’s not the matter of the entire company involved in forbidden acts. You couldn’t invest in a restaurant if they served pork, for example. The choices for investment in today’s world become limited for Muslims. They need something like this. “Qur’an license to kill” I believe I just explained why that is wrong above. “Now the Islamic ideology has to be defeated.” Aww, that’s sweet. That’s exactly the reason the CIA has put forward to justify their continued existence. But you’re not supposed to know that. Let me end by saying that this video does not represent Islam’s teachings, but the twisted way many Muslims have interpreted it. Hate the Muslims, not Islam. I cannot justify their actions. But even the Muslims are beginning wake up and see the religion for what it really is. I’m seeing it happen.

[Sornaensis]

Worry comes from what happens, Kushna, not what is SUPPOSED to happen.

[Kushna Mufeed]

I realize that, but I felt I had to show the verses in their true context. Y'know, show people what Islam actually teaches. It should be Muslimphobia, not Islamophobia. Non-Muslims aren't the only ones the Muslims are making worried and pissing off.

[Moonbeam]

Kushna, when you need that much typing to explain that when the Koran says to kill people, it doesn't really mean for you to do it, what does that tell you? You can't deny that millions and millions of people are interpreting the Koran in a way that does tell them to kill people; this isn't just a few psychopaths "taking it out of context". The Bible is no better, except that most Christians don't read it or pay attention to what it says. I hope you're right that most Muslims are starting to pay attention to what is happening. P.S. It doesn't make sense to hate the people, but not the belief--it should be the other way around. I don't hate the members of my family who are Christian, but I do hate their belief.

[Kushna Mufeed]

If you look at a few verses before and after, you see quite obviously that the verses HAVE been taken out of context. Which is pretty much why I colour coded them if you don't want to read everything. So, you should hate the faith for something it doesn't teach, not the people who have taken it the wrong way?

[Gastone Mojaisky]

my view, the old take a line or 2 out and use scaremongering technique. The trick CAN be played with other religious books such as the bible and old testament. As far as i have seen, He gives only the most superficial of interpretations and he only portrays Islam with the Crazies of the Relegion. Its like making a documentary on Christianity and only showing the absoloute fundamentalists who say "Earthquakes happen because of sodomy" I can dig up Christian verses that condome rape but does that make it a true Christian teaching? No absoloutely note. You wouldn't learn about Jews from Nazies and you wouldn't learn about Christianity from Atheists so why is this true of Islam? All he did (Geert Wilder) was blame all of Europe's social and economic problems on its Muslim population and said Muslims were secretly planning to take over the world. That is exactly what Hitler said about the Jewish population of Europe. "edit" In the movie they have a newspaper caption saying "Teachers teach Jihad in dutch schools" or something to that effect. You will duely note that the Jihad that is taught in schools isn't the kill the infidels variety. Not at all. In Islam the word Jihad has mulitple meanings. It means "struggle". an interesting event in the media, is they label terrorists "Jihadies". In Islamic countries the word Jihad has positive conotations and by giving the name "Jihadies" to terrorists you are endearing them. But most Muslim don't use the western defenition of Jihad and Geert Wilder took the word Jihad out of context to give it the meaning of "Kill the infidels". Which further leads me to beleive Geert Wilder is a bigot or an idiot. "edit" In the video it shows Dutch Muslims walking in the streets and then the graphics and whatnot makes them out as a threat as a danger to dutch society as if they are a disease that needs purging. This video resembles a nazi film in the sense of a nazi film would use simlar tactics to draw antimosity towards jews. This video promotes hatred of Muslims especially European Muslims and it uses his own interpretations of the Koran even though he is not a qu'ranic scholar. You can't deny that millions and millions of people are interpreting the Koran in a way that does tell them to kill people; this isn't just a few psychopaths "taking it out of context". Millions of people? Where are you getting your statistics from my friend?

[Sornaensis]

No ones religion is ever interpreted "the right way" is it? Didn't think so. What is "the right way" then?

[Gastone Mojaisky]

No ones religion is ever interpreted "the right way" is it? Didn't think so. What is "the right way" then? I am not a biblical/quranic/talmudic scholar by any means. But i think it's important to understand the context of a verse not just the verse itself. and Often times as in Christianity such verses are not to be taken literally and are not meant in literally at all.

[Mes Tarrant]

I'm sorry, but providing us the "correct" way to "interpret" that damned book doesn't change the fact that it allows for a hell of a lot of BS in this world.

[Gastone Mojaisky]

I'm sorry, but providing us the "correct" way to "interpret" that damned book doesn't change the fact that it allows for a hell of a lot of BS in this world. I'm not implying that there is only one correct way in which to interpret something; but i am a firm beleiver that sound bytes or just verses by themselves are not sufficient to make an accurate assumption. You have to read the verse in context and take other things into mind aswell and only then can you make a truly "educated guess" as it were...If you just present verses by themselves as in the video Fitna then you are taking them completely out of context in the most literall way you can.

[Gastone Mojaisky]

Here, I imagine you folks will be interested to read this, that what i have found on onother website. Geert Wilders has raised many points in his movie Fitna. He has tried to give a face to Islam that he and people like him (eg Osama Bin Laden) like to project. Misquoting Quran, and picking verses of his choice from the holy book ignoring verses just next to them. Giving half information is same as creating misinformation. However, for people who are wise, the same fitna created by Geert Wilders will lead to understanding the truth and salvation, once they read Quran and understand the real context. While this response does not intend to explain reactive behaviours of some muslims (including clerics), it will explain the misquoted text from the source - Quran. Movie starts with following verse quoted from holy Quran: First Quran verse presented in the movie: Quran: 008.060 "Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of Allah and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom Allah doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of Allah, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly. " But Geert refuses to read and quote just the next verse without understanding context, showing his ill intentions. Courage is being brought into hearts of fearful muslims against whom war has been declared and peace has been taken away: Quran: 008.061 But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things). Islam encourages peace, will somebody want a better proof than this. Even against those who started to go against peace, you also get ready to respond to maintain peace, fighting those who distroy peace, but if they go back to peace, then there is no reason for war. A little earlier in the same chapter the context becomes even more clear: Quran: 008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do. Permission is being given to fight those who cause tumult or oppression without letting justice and forcing people not to choose what religion is right for them. Quran: 008.058 If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for Allah loveth not the treacherous. It is all about terms and conditions. "IF". Permission is being given to fight with given circumstances of treachery from hostile group. Same chapter again, to make context even more clear: Quran: 008.056 They are those with whom thou didst make a covenant, but they break their covenant every time, and they have not the fear (of Allah). "Those" are the people who break agreements and treaties. Doesn't make the same chapter clarify people like those who made "Fita" with all the wrong intentions misquoting Quran, Quran: 008.049 "Lo! the hypocrites say, and those in whose hearts is a disease: "These people,- their religion has misled them." But if any trust in Allah, behold! Allah is Exalted in might, Wise." --------------------------------------... The second verse from Quran presented is: Quran: 004.056 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. These are the warnings for disbelievers. And there is sign of God in it for the wise. Can an illiterate man (Mohammad, p.b.u.h) who didn't know how to read and write say such a thing which only MD's of today's medical sciences are able to explain. Today science has discovered that the only place where pain of fire is felt is not the meat, but it is skin. God is giving His sign for the wise people in it to know the Quran is from God only. Punishment through roasting the skin, again and again, only the skin. Still there are many like Geert who did not think about it. For sure there are many signs for believers in Quran. --------------------------------------... The third verse quoted is: Quran: 047.004 Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. Again same chapter explains the context: Quran: 047.020 Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them- Chapters 25-78 were revealed during the early stage of Madani life after migration, at the time when muslims were weak, and feared to participate in wars staged on them by disbelievers. --------------------------------------... Fourth time a verse is mentioned: Quran: 004.089 They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- Geert again ignores the context from the same chapter, a few verses away: Quran: 004.075 And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!" Islam is all about self defence, getting people (men, women, children) their right away from oppression, ill treatment, who cry and ask God for help. --------------------------------------... And the final Verse quoted in the movie: Quran: 008.039 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do. Geert picks the right verse that explains the whole context, but verily, Quran: 047.024 Do they not then earnestly seek to understand the Qur'an, or are their hearts locked up by them? Quran: 2:171 The example of such disbelievers is that of parrots who repeat what they hear of sounds and calls, without understanding. deaf, dumb, and blind; they cannot understand. Again it says that if they cease to fight, don't fight. And permission is given to fight until all oppression is nulified, and people have the freedom to choose the right religion and faith as they want. --------------------------------------... Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians’ life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram – or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not “martyrs.” The Qur’an, Islam’s revealed text, states: "Whoever kills a person [unjustly]…it is as though he has killed all mankind. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved all mankind." (Qur’an, 5:32) Prophet Muhammad said there is no excuse for committing unjust acts: "Do not be people without minds of your own, saying that if others treat you well you will treat them well, and that if they do wrong you will do wrong to them. Instead, accustom yourselves to do good if people do good and not to do wrong (even) if they do evil." (Al-Tirmidhi) The Holy Prophet Muhammad(s) puts it in these words: "All creatures are like a family of God: and he loves the most those who are the most beneficent to His family. (Narrated by Anas. Mishkat al-Masabih,3:1392.) Even duty of prophet was to clearly defined as to convey the messege of God to human beings: So if they dispute with you (Muhammad SAW) say: "I have submitted myself to Allah (in Islam), and (so have) those who follow me." And say to those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and to those who are illiterates (Arab pagans): "Do you (also) submit yourselves (to Allah in Islam)?" If they do, they are rightly guided; but if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the Message; and Allah is All-Seer of (His ) slaves. ( سورة آل عمران , Aal-e-Imran, Chapter #3, Verse #20) Then, if they turn away, your duty (O Muhammad SAW) is only to convey (the Message) in a clear way. ( سورة النحل , An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #82) Quran 2:256 There is no compulsion in religion. Don't give bad rating to a Mercedes only because the driver didn’t know how to drive such a good car and had an accident. Don't judge islam by the actions of bad Muslims who take out their frustration with west with wrong interpretation of Islamic teaching. Know islam by yourself. Give yourself a chance to know truth with open mind Qarizma71, we don't need to make a counter movie, read my answer, all you need is a bit of knowledge on this topic

[Sornaensis]

I don't see why you muslim's care. The Dutch don't want them in their country. Guess what? It's THEIR country! You crazy Middle-Easterners disallow the American and European customs to be practiced in your countries, so why can't we do the same? That aside, it really DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE QUARAN SAYS. It matters what those idiotic radicals (And yes there are a LOT more then you let on) do (i.e. Killing people) that upsets us and they believe in, guess what, THE KORAN.

[Kushna Mufeed]

Then they should stop allowing people of other cultures and races immigrating to their country. Do us crazy Middle-Easteners try to stop Americans and Europeans from practising their customs? No. If anything, we stop our own people from doing that. Why? Because it's better to be proud of what you are, then pretending to be something that you're not. In this case it DOES MATTER WHAT THE QUR'AN SAYS. Why? Because the movie is blaming the Qur'an for verses taken out of context and telling Muslims to rip them out. Put them in context, and there is nothing wrong. The film is portraying it as if this is actually what Islam teaches. And if it is a crime to write something that can be taken out of context, stop writing all together.

[Sornaensis]

Islam does not teach anything. Islam is the group of people who belive the writings in the Koran. Again-- It does not matter that it is meant to say one thing, it matters that it is justification for another thing. (Killing infadels)

[Gastone Mojaisky]

And if it is a crime to write something that can be taken out of context, stop writing all together. That is so true. That amounts to slander does it not? That video, Fitna amounts to hate speech. Im not sure if you watched it but at one point it even draws hate towards Dutch Muslims and makes it seem as if they are a plague of sorts. That video is hate speech and just reflects the mans own hate and prejudice. This video absoloutely should not be distrubuted. it is reminscent of Nazi hate mongering towards jews and it is reminscent to the Anti semitic production called the "The protocols of Zion". I don't see why you muslim's care. The Dutch don't want them in their country. Guess what? It's THEIR country! You crazy Middle-Easterners disallow the American and European customs to be practiced in your countries, so why can't we do the same? That aside, it really DOES NOT MATTER WHAT THE QUARAN SAYS. It matters what those idiotic radicals (And yes there are a LOT more then you let on) do (i.e. Killing people) that upsets us and they believe in, guess what, THE KORAN. The Dutch brought them in as Immigrants, if they get a green card and later Dutch citizenship then they have every right to live in the Netherlands no matter what their relegion. After World Ware II France brought in loads of Immigrants from it's former North African Colonies/protectorates to help rebuild France after the chaous of WWII, the North African immigrants were infact abused by the french and discriminated against. If i were i would watch what you say and stop playing the victime and making out people of Middle Eastern descent to be the bad guys. I find it intriguing you accuse me of being a Muslim because I speak out against hate speech. You're writings reflect a great deal of ingorance on your part my friend.

[Sornaensis]

Oh yes of course. It's all the Dutch's infinite wells of HATRED. DAMN THEM! DAMN THEM ALL! I mean, Al Qaeda only threanted to blow up their coutry and roast them all, but that doesn't mean anything-- They misinterpreted my religion! Those dogs!

[Gastone Mojaisky]

Watch the Video and you will see it incites hatred against Dutch Muslims. Seismosaur it would be welcome if you take a break from your "infininite wittiness" and talk on the issues instead.

[Sornaensis]

Well you guys aren't seeing it from their perspective. That is why humans fail at cooperation and peace.

[Gastone Mojaisky]

"Their perspective"? please elaborate

[Sornaensis]

per·spec·tive (pr-spktv) n. 1. a. A view or vista. b. A mental view or outlook: "It is useful occasionally to look at the past to gain a perspective on the present" Fabian Linden. 2. The appearance of objects in depth as perceived by normal binocular vision. 3. a. The relationship of aspects of a subject to each other and to a whole: a perspective of history; a need to view the problem in the proper perspective. b. Subjective evaluation of relative significance; a point of view: the perspective of the displaced homemaker. c. The ability to perceive things in their actual interrelations or comparative importance: tried to keep my perspective throughout the crisis. 4. The technique of representing three-dimensional objects and depth relationships on a two-dimensional surface. adj. Of, relating to, seen, or represented in perspective. [Middle English, science of optics (influenced by French perspective, perspective), from Medieval Latin perspectva (ars), feminine of perspectvus, optical, from perspectus, past participle of perspicere, to inspect : per-, per- + specere, to look; see spek- in Indo-European roots.] per·spectiv·al adj. per·spective·ly adv. i.e. The position they are looking at the situation from.

[Gastone Mojaisky]

I mean to say the view point of whom? The dutch, the Muslims..Whos perspective?

[Sornaensis]

The Dutch of course.