Thread: Power

Everyone achieves an emotional response from different things. For example, someone may find that giving food to the poor gives them a deep satisfaction. Some people may feel deeply satisfied by swimming 50 laps around a pool. And some people may feel deeply satisfied by controlling other people.

I have ideas, but I am uncertain about all of them. Some hunger for power out of deeply embedded feelings of inferiority. Others hunger because they feel uncomfortable in situations they have little to no control over, so they attempt to obtain as much control as possible. That's not all of the story though, and I don't have the answer. It could have been that it developed as a social-survival mechanism in which the control over resources in the group meant having the opportunity to mate more than any other member, and therefor have the greatest success rate of passing on your genes. Does that sound logical? It is a primitive, savage way of thinking, as power comes at the expense of others.

I agree, by the way. The will to dominate is turned into a sort of game, and those who engage in it demonstrate irresponsibility and reckless, harmful behavior toward others, even if done subtly.

Issues which disturb me specifically are the complete disregard for the long-term welfare of the country that politicians are showing where I live, in Britain.

I have never seen a single politician talk about any issue which is not immediately relevant; however these issues are the ones which are extremely crucial.

In particular there is our dependence on crude, which very soon is going to become scarce. There is simply no infrastructure in place to cope with any disruption at all, and when it really starts to hurt, it's going to be far too late. I'm predicting some severe social disruption whilst I'm still young.

The amount of electrical power generated by renewables is currently less than 1%, which is absolutely appalling, as we have some very fortuitous conditions; there's a single dam we could build over that Severn Estuary which could generate something like 5% of our power. 5 percent! But nobody in government gives a toss, because by the time it starts to matter, their political careers will have come to an end.

The Prime Minister's reckless spending of our country's accumulated wealth in times of economic health so as to manufacture a boom and so get him the title is another case of somebody further crippling the country for entirely selfish reasons - he did it for personal power, and that was it. And now, surprise surprise, everybody hates him. Why are people this stupid?? Why would you put yourself in that position?

"First, you gotta get the money. Then when you got the money, you get the power. Then when you get the power, you get the women." - Al Pacino, Scarface

With enough power, you get whatever you want. Without any power, you don't get much of you want.

EDIT: As for politics... I'm not really involved in anything political, so I don't really know.

I know, Xei, and I hear you on the renewables and what's going to go down when our current infrastructure begins to starve. The oil industry has much influence when it comes to political affairs. Who do you think funds the candidates? Well, I don't know the details about political workings in the UK, but the way it works out here is that candidates are backed by corporate entities that want their interests protected. Corporate interests are never public interests. We both know that, though.

Although this is a bit of a side note, I feel it's important to point out that dams are particularly harmful to both the life sustaining capabilities of the river and to the nutritional gain of the surrounding land. There's more, I know, but there's no need to go on about it. We still have wind and solar as viable options too, and perhaps geothermal, but I'm still not clear about any potential long term ramifications about widespread use of the technology (if there are any).

Originally Posted by Xei

Issues which disturb me specifically are the complete disregard for the long-term welfare of the country that politicians are showing where I live, in Britain.

I have never seen a single politician talk about any issue which is not immediately relevant; however these issues are the ones which are extremely crucial.

This is about maintaining power obviously. If one party isn't busy exploiting short term problems for gaining power, they are busy countering another parties attempt to do so. Somebody talking about a serious long term issue that can be dealt with "later" is going to be slaughtered in popularity by a serious short term threat, or short term hype if the population isn't educated enough to tell the difference. That just begs the question though.

Originally Posted by Xei

In particular there is our dependence on crude, which very soon is going to become scarce. There is simply no infrastructure in place to cope with any disruption at all, and when it really starts to hurt, it's going to be far too late. I'm predicting some severe social disruption whilst I'm still young.

This is the above effect and political corruption working in concert, straight up.

I think that the primary reason for the lust for power is the instinct for social influence that is present in pretty much all social mammals, though perhaps not all individuals within a particular species. I see no other reason for it that convinces me as being able to stand on its own. To be sure, other forces can exacerbate the situation but I think that they would be pretty powerless and easily spotted in the absence of this core cause. Regardless of what the politicians do, the populace tolerates it.

Originally Posted by Invader

Although this is a bit of a side note, I feel it's important to point out that dams are particularly harmful to both the life sustaining capabilities of the river and to the nutritional gain of the surrounding land.

Although it is a bit of a side note, I'll second that. It's especially important because estuaries are critical breeding grounds for the marine ecosystem and once we get our heavy metals under control (they're blown out of proportion as it is, but the situation is still far less than ideal), the marine ecosystem will be critical in providing healthy, environmentally sound meat to a larger populace.

Originally Posted by Xei

Why do so many people lust for power?

I cannot understand it at all, I find it utterly absurd. Can anybody explain it to me?

There is a strong correlation between the amount of sex hormone an individual produces (estrogen/testosterone) and their need for power and dominance. This was clinical proven by testing the amount of sex hormone in the saliva of individuals . Test subjects were placed in a clinical setting where they were forced to participate in a dominance contest. Their sex hormone level in the saliva was tested before and after. The individuals who had previously tested that they had a higher need for dominance showed that after a laboratory dominance contest their sex hormone level rose =higher power/dominance motivation was correlated with higher sex hormone..So, there is a biological cause for this “need for dominance” in some people.

Twenty-five percent of the the civilized world is on estrogen birth control pills and this estrogen eventually makes it to your water supply through the process of elimination. Soooooooo, you guys can rest assured that with all the estrogen you are drinking.....women will control the earth very soon ....hehe.

Originally Posted by Liz

and this estrogen eventually makes it to your water supply through the process of elimination.

How exactly does a logical tool for reasoning move estrogen into the water supply?
Speak, you.

Originally Posted by Invader

How exactly does a logical tool for reasoning move estrogen into the water supply?
Speak, you.

From what I've heard, some of the estrogen in women's urine doesn't get caught by the sewage plant and actually does wind up in our water. I wonder if this applies to home filters as well.

I used to know an excellent quote regarding power. It went something along the lines of:

"men don't wish to accumulate power, they wish to emanate it"

Originally Posted by Black_Eagle

From what I've heard, some of the estrogen in women's urine doesn't get caught by the sewage plant and actually does wind up in our water. I wonder if this applies to home filters as well.

Google certainly does turn up its slew of results, and not just for estrogen, but for other pharmaceuticals as well. A lot of it looks like "I read a study" or "I heard this", so I'm still just trying to find a credible source. There are a few news sites I've never heard of, and I can't find any sources for their information.

Talk about going off on a tangent. If it contributes to the thread any, estrogen reduces violent impulses. Those impulses may lead one to seek dominant positions in their societies, you know.

People like to control things, the more they have a say, the better. It is a combination of greed, ignorance, fear, envy, and fantasy. I found an interesting article that may help understand.

And an appropriate quote:
"Every tyrant who has lived has believed in freedom - for himself."
-Elbert Hubbard

Plain estrogen in the water supply would be too dilluted to do anything, and it would have little effects without blocking testosterone even if it was more concentrated.

Power is control. The ego thrives on power. Control = power. In most of us there is some longing for control.
Some have an obsession over control. The more power you have the more control you obtain.
Unfortunately government is power.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

I was not aware of what rules that estrogen and testosterone play. What is your source?

Kim Jong-il acting on which one?

References for biology/genetic affect on the need for power/dominance:

http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/relea...ry.php?id=6524

http://homepage.psy.utexas.edu/homep...htaJosephs.pdf

Reference for environmental estrogen affecting men:

http://www.som.tulane.edu/cbr/ecme/e...sics/eeeffects


Scroll way down to find the estrogen study on this one:
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:...&client=safari
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The most interesting question. Actually this is the one problem I have been pondering for many years now. I tend to think that it is something that is build inside us and is very human-like, whether some people restrain the lust or are simply too weak to ever get that power. For me it seems very typical for humans that every one of us desires to carve their own way through this world and hopefully leave something behind. That is of course meaningless, because there is no reason to leave anything behind if you, as being, will ultimately perish.

I must admit that strength and power plays a very important role in my life, or more accuratetly, capability. Our lives are determined by things we are capable of. We are after all egoistic, we want to be more than the other people. Controlling people doesn't give me satisfaction, I despise people who go around saying other people what to do. For me power is the ability to do what you like, in spite of what the odds are or what those annoying other people try to make you do.

For politics, I despise them too as general. Just a large scale farce that unfortunatetly has grown way too important for the world. Nothing good can come out of scenario where the indifferent incapable elect the ambitious incapable to do the impossible.The only problem is that those elected get the keys to destroy the current world with couple words. I am greatly interested who the hell votes for Obama, for example? I am not commenting about his capability, skill or him as person at all, I am just saying that what makes people vote for him. You could replace Obama for any other politician in that sentence, it doesn't matter. I am more interested in the chains of events that lead to the current situation than the mere situation itself. What have they done to extremely large masses of people to have those people vote for them? Why they want to raise one person to rule them all? Is it because they are so weak themselves and hope this one will be capable enough to correct the wrongs?

Originally Posted by Exhalent

And an appropriate quote:
"Every tyrant who has lived has believed in freedom - for himself."
-Elbert Hubbard

Mhehh. That's true for so many people.
"Freedom of Speech!! Atleast untill somebody disagrees with me."

About power, I don't think I have any huge desire for power over anyone other than myself.
But that is, what it is. Or can be.
It's a common argument that child molesters molest children because they lack power and/or control in some aspect in their own life, so they seek to have this control over something or someone that is easier to handle than whatever it is they can't control.

Maybe politicians are insecure, powerless people who seek power over others for that reason :3

Originally Posted by Unelias

I must admit that strength and power plays a very important role in my life, or more accuratetly, capability. Our lives are determined by things we are capable of. We are after all egoistic, we want to be more than the other people. Controlling people doesn't give me satisfaction, I despise people who go around saying other people what to do. For me power is the ability to do what you like, in spite of what the odds are or what those annoying other people try to make you do.

For politics, I despise them too as general. Just a large scale farce that unfortunatetly has grown way too important for the world. Nothing good can come out of scenario where the indifferent incapable elect the ambitious incapable to do the impossible.The only problem is that those elected get the keys to destroy the current world with couple words. I am greatly interested who the hell votes for Obama, for example? I am not commenting about his capability, skill or him as person at all, I am just saying that what makes people vote for him. You could replace Obama for any other politician in that sentence, it doesn't matter. I am more interested in the chains of events that lead to the current situation than the mere situation itself. What have they done to extremely large masses of people to have those people vote for them? Why they want to raise one person to rule them all? Is it because they are so weak themselves and hope this one will be capable enough to correct the wrongs?

I think I agree with this O_ o

Originally Posted by Unelias

For politics, I despise them too as general. Just a large scale farce that unfortunatetly has grown way too important for the world. Nothing good can come out of scenario where the indifferent incapable elect the ambitious incapable to do the impossible.The only problem is that those elected get the keys to destroy the current world with couple words. I am greatly interested who the hell votes for Obama, for example? I am not commenting about his capability, skill or him as person at all, I am just saying that what makes people vote for him. You could replace Obama for any other politician in that sentence, it doesn't matter. I am more interested in the chains of events that lead to the current situation than the mere situation itself. What have they done to extremely large masses of people to have those people vote for them? Why they want to raise one person to rule them all? Is it because they are so weak themselves and hope this one will be capable enough to correct the wrongs?

It's good to have a leader. It's a face that people can trust and rely on. Someone to look to for answers. Without a leader, people fragment away from each other. It's the leader's job to try and hold everybody together. Granted this isn't always exactly what a president is or does, but it's what they represent - leadership.

Also, ultimately, it's not one person's (the president) rule per se. The president has many advisors, including the Senate. You can't expect one person to know everything and always know what is best. This was realized a long time ago, and is the purpose for the creation of the president's cabinet. Remember too that, the senate also votes for the president, not just the public. If you think that the president and senate are "incapable" of the tasks that they perform, then that's rather ignorant of you to say. It's not like any asshole can walk in off the street and get elected.

Conclusively, people simply desire to have a leader, in hopes that they will either know what is best, or know who to talk to, in order to find out what is best.

Originally Posted by Vampyre

It's good to have a leader. It's a face that people can trust and rely on. Someone to look to for answers. Without a leader, people fragment away from each other. It's the leader's job to try and hold everybody together. Granted this isn't always exactly what a president is or does, but it's what they represent - leadership.

Also, ultimately, it's not one person's (the president) rule per se. The president has many advisors, including the Senate. You can't expect one person to know everything and always know what is best. This was realized a long time ago, and is the purpose for the creation of the president's cabinet. Remember too that, the senate also votes for the president, not just the public. If you think that the president and senate are "incapable" of the tasks that they perform, then that's rather ignorant of you to say. It's not like any asshole can walk in off the street and get elected.

Conclusively, people simply desire to have a leader, in hopes that they will either know what is best, or know who to talk to, in order to find out what is best.

I don't desire to have a leader or someone who decides things over me. I don't believe in communities/ goverments or think they are the best solution. Granted, masses long for leader, for someone who can smile and say everything will be all right. The problem is that this person hardly is worth of such power. No man is. Even if you split it amongs the senate or what ever it doesn't even come near the right to lead so many. Include corruption. all those lies and deceptions and you have a delicious looking cake, which has blood and flesh inside it.

I agree in one thing though. The cause of this horrible state we are in. It is hope. People always want to believe that things will be right. They want to trust for a handful of people they know absolutely nothing about. For me, that is ignorant and stupid.

So... you support anarchy? You think we'd be better off without any sustained form of government?

No I am not an anarchist. I don't know if you are familiar what is the difference between political nihilism and anarchism. Nihilism doesn't offer anything in return, it just wants to destroy the existing. I don't believe in any system, but more I despise the one where someone tries to restrict me.

You think we'd be better off without any sustained form of government?

Considering the nature of humans and the fact that most of us cannot stand the idea of surviving alone let alone succeed in it, humans would always try and create some kind of goverment, which is destined to be destroyed. Like the previous one. There is no such thing as sustained form when we think far enough.

The reason why I don't have faith in any form of goverment is because ultimatetly it forces masses of people in the same form, thus limiting freedom. Religion, politics, moral code, traditions... They are all systems, which I consider false. They are just creations of humans, therefore I have no need or desire to work under them. I am human myself, there is no need for me to bow down to the creation of another human, unless that human has more power than me. In that case he will force me. Here is the difference between the strong and the weak. When two forces are put against the one that has more power will reign and remain. In order to untap the potential we need to get rid of the most restricting factor called order. In chaos can the true potential be released, when no restricting factors occur. Also, chaos is a lot more interesting since nothing can be predicted in advance. A lot more lively than stiff traditions, which people obey just because this has been done for aeons already.

You ask why, I ask why not? The opportunity brings the desire, as rejection brings limitation. It's common urges, unconscious at best. Only those that see them can control them, for better or for worse. The famous ones are the ones who can see and pluck the strings. Architects of power and society are no more artists and musicians for nature itself.

IMMORTALITY. Everyone wants immortality, to live on forever, to be remembered for eternity. How do you gain immortality? You have to be remembered. How do you get remembered? You make a lasting effect on as many people as possible. How do you achieve this in a short amount of time? You convince the naive and control the stubborn. And how do you do this? Through POWER.

Power = Immortality. Whether you're remembered for the good or for the bad you want to be remembered, forever, in whatever way possible.

When humanity can drop the ego then and only then will power become obsolete.

It goes back to the days when our ancestors were apes in the jungle and even way back further than that. Even dogs have the same issues. The more power an ape has in a group, the safer he is. He gets first rights to food and has the other apes taking up for him in a heartbeat. For some monkeys, the most powerful gets to sleep in the middle of the group on a branch. A lot of benefits come with power in the wild. Thus, the will for power evolved.

Plus, with modern humans, power allows access to money, freedom, protection, and great sex. It's just too bad that the people who have the most of it generally are way too neurotic and crazy to really enjoy what they have.