Thread: Power

Not power over others though.

Thanks for the references Liz -- although I ahve yet to read them.

Originally Posted by PhilosopherStoned

Not power over others though.

To desire the control of a dream character would be a very similar implication...no?

I would say that if you like to control DC in your dreams or manifest the need for control in any other way, it's the same in the real life. Only that you are too afraid or incapable to fulfill your desires in real people.

People long for control and power. I think there are moments in every one's lives when they want to be the strongest man or woman in the world. It's totally logical and acceptable. Only a handful of people keep on pushing that desire untill they become powerful enough.

Originally Posted by Unelias

I would say that if you like to control DC in your dreams or manifest the need for control in any other way, it's the same in the real life. Only that you are too afraid or incapable to fulfill your desires in real people.

That's an interesting view. Could you explain why you think so? I know I posted here that desire to control dreams is desire for power, but it was not my thought, I stole it from another thread to see what people would say about it. I don't really think so at all. In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

Originally Posted by Arutad

In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

That's exactly why you'd want to do it in a dream, and not in the real world.
Even though you can look at it like that, your brain will still see dream characters as persons. Though they have labels on such as "fake", "unreal", "imagination" on them, you still see them as a person - Or atleast your brain does.

I mean even though you know they aren't really persons, you're still controlling something that is made to represent real people.

Originally Posted by Arutad

That's an interesting view. Could you explain why you think so? I know I posted here that desire to control dreams is desire for power, but it was not my thought, I stole it from another thread to see what people would say about it. I don't really think so at all. In your dreams you know that it's merely a DC, a fruit of your own imagination, that makes controlling DCs very different from wielding any real power.

Although you might say that dreams are just dreams and far apart from material world, it is still you who is performing the actions. What other motives are there to seek control? Control is power, power to influence other beings or things. Why would you want to influence over a dream character then? How can you be sure that you don't actually want to do that in real life person too, if you could?

For wielding a real power... the power itself is as real as the power in waking world, but instead of other sentient beings you using the power to figments of your imagination.

But for counter question : what do you think the desire of control dreams is then?

Originally Posted by Maeni

Even though you can look at it like that, your brain will still see dream characters as persons. Though they have labels on such as "fake", "unreal", "imagination" on them, you still see them as a person - Or atleast your brain does.

That's true. And this is strange. I've been thinking it over and can't find a reason why I don't want to control DCs but want to control real people if the brain sees them as real, which it does. It makes no sense.

I think power is only a way of obtaining freedom, or even respect. I believe humans naturally thrive for freedom and respect, so lusting for power is only an obvious consequence.

Notice, however, that since it is an indirect association, one can be taught to dislike power.

Originally Posted by Unelias

What other motives are there to seek control? Control is power, power to influence other beings or things. Why would you want to influence over a dream character then? How can you be sure that you don't actually want to do that in real life person too, if you could?

There's no need to be uncertain about real life, I surely would want control in real life. And in this case I agree wholeheartedly that control is power, although motives for seeking power vary from person to person. But since we both call it power our motives may be rather similar, because I think people who seek it for other reasons wouldn't call it power at all.

For wielding a real power... the power itself is as real as the power in waking world, but instead of other sentient beings you using the power to figments of your imagination.

How do you get satisfaction from that?

But for counter question : what do you think the desire of control dreams is then?

No idea I never had such a desire to begin with.

Originally Posted by Arutad

There's no need to be uncertain about real life, I surely would want control in real life. And in this case I agree wholeheartedly that control is power, although motives for seeking power vary from person to person. But since we both call it power our motives may be rather similar, because I think people who seek it for other reasons wouldn't call it power at all.

Well power is merely capability after all, it is just a tool for something like Kromoh mentioned. In my case the ultimate goal is pretty much absolute freedom and independency. Motives do vary, like you said, but power as an idea doesn't contain any moral or ethical parts. People just use power whatever they feel like.

How do you get satisfaction from that?

Because my satisfaction comes from inside me. Every time I discover more things to achieve, untap more of my potential thus converting it to capability, I become more satisfied. However I have noticed that it comes with a quite high price. I constantly hunger for more and my ego strives me forward. I am very hard and unforgiving on myself.

No idea I never had such a desire to begin with.

and you never developed it? You never started to think what might be your limit in dream control, what you could possibly achieve with training and patience?

Originally Posted by Unelias

Well power is merely capability after all, it is just a tool for something like Kromoh mentioned. In my case the ultimate goal is pretty much absolute freedom and independency. Motives do vary, like you said, but power as an idea doesn't contain any moral or ethical parts. People just use power whatever they feel like.

Let's not make power so abstract It's an abstract word for capability, true, but it's telling us nothing, until we define the capability of what it is. So let's define it. As you're talking about freedom and independency, I guess what you expect from power is having means to not care for concequences of your actions. Am I right? And what kind of means, something like being able to dictate your will to others?

Every time I discover more things to achieve, untap more of my potential thus converting it to capability, I become more satisfied. However I have noticed that it comes with a quite high price. I constantly hunger for more and my ego strives me forward. I am very hard and unforgiving on myself.

To be honest I have no idea what you're talking about... You're putting it in a very abstract manner, and although it must make sense for you, for somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about that needs serious decyphering

Would you care to give a down-to-earth example?

and you never developed it? You never started to think what might be your limit in dream control, what you could possibly achieve with training and patience?

Dream control abilities, no matter how high, don't arouse any feelings of respect from me.

I don't understand why you feel competitive about it. Sure sometimes I do it out of neccesity, when an annoying DC is preventing me from doing something more sensible. But to be interested in perfecting dream control? It's pathetic I think (and I apologize for this opinion) to turn such a magnificently real thing as lucid dreaming into yet another refuge from life, into a game of pretense.

I guess what you expect from power is having means to not care for concequences of your actions. Am I right? And what kind of means, something like being able to dictate your will to others?

If you have the power you don't HAVE to care about concequences of your actions since no one can really affect you or your actions. It is still up to the person whether he wants to be reckless and indifferent about the other people, which is again a moral problem. You can have a lot of power and influence, yet you can be very responsible about using it and utilize it by altruistic manner.

For me it is not that much dictating MY will to others, it's more like preventing others from suppressing my own potential and my own actions. I am not that interested in meddling with other people or bending them under my will. There is usually no need to and I have no interest in it. But if someone is standing between my goal and tries to hold me back, I will use my power to cast him aside. If I have enough of it, that is.

That is why I respect strength. I respect people who can be what they have dreamed, who succeed and won't give up. Who persevere over anything that would normally destroy one. Who keep on going on that strange and sometimes very lonely path untill they reach the goal they have worked so hard to get to.

Here are two thoughts which I like, maybe they shed a bit more light to the subject

"A dreamer is one who can only find his way by moonlight, and his punishment is that he sees the dawn before the rest of the world."
-Oscar Wilde

This would be good clarification into my life too. Something like my motto perhaps :

Life without challenge is nothing. In such a hollowed state the difference between the absolute power and the absolute powerlessness becomes almost undetectable.

To be honest I have no idea what you're talking about... You're putting it in a very abstract manner, and although it must make sense for you, for somebody who doesn't know what you're talking about that needs serious decyphering
Would you care to give a down-to-earth example?

Yes I do understand this is very hard for others to understand. I am quite abstract man in many ways too. I find it also hard to shape my thoughts in English since I mainly operate with my native language.

I'll try my best for you.

I am very interested about human potential. What we can do and when the limit comes in to the game. I have trained many, many different things and I constantly find new things to research. But since we have limited time I become frustrated since I cannot develope myself enough, when there are so many things I am interested in learning. In short, I love learning. Too bad there is not that much of use of jack-of-all-trades nowadays, since our society is build pretty much up on people who specialise in something and master it. I don't want to limit myself to solely one thing, that would be boring, wouldn't it? I am pretty much above average in everything I have tried this far and there are areas which I am very talented.

I have noticed that when you first know bit of this and that, everything transforms a lot easier, thus hastening the learning process. With patience and training even more possibilities are found and the existing skills are honed all the time.

Now for the problem. I am pretty rough on myself when it comes to failing, especially if it is about something I should have already mastered in some degree. I don't actually care if other people fail, I am not the one who is yelling at them. Since I am into such a large diversity of subjects, it is natural that failures do occur, mostly due the lack of training. That is why I am driven forward by this.. hunger. It is my ego that demands me to continue untill I succeed. After another milestone has been reached, the hunger is sated for a while. Is this still too abstract?

Simply put, I love learning, training, developing myself, becoming stronger and more skillfull all the time. I can get carried away by my training so that I don't realise that I have been punching a sandbag for two hours straight and I drop down dead tired after the realization. I can draw eight hours without even knowing I need to eat or such. Once I got so obsessed by learning a certain song that I played guitar all night and woke up with skin all torn from my fingers.

Dream control abilities, no matter how high, don't arouse any feelings of respect from me.

For me a skill well learned is always worth of applauses. Especially if it is something not everyone is capable of and has been worked hard to get to.

I don't understand why you feel competitive about it. Sure sometimes I do it out of neccesity, when an annoying DC is preventing me from doing something more sensible. But to be interested in perfecting dream control?

Out of curioisity. What is the limit of dream control? That is my main motive. Another one is that I want to utilize my sleep time as well as I can. But the thing here is that for me dream control ability is a gauge to me how well I can control myself. It is all in my head after all, I am not influencing anybody elses mind. If I couldn't control my mind, everything would be lost.

It's pathetic I think (and I apologize for this opinion) to turn such a magnificently real thing as lucid dreaming into yet another refuge from life, into a game of pretense.

No need to apologize. People think too much of what they say in fear of hurting other people's feelings. We are exchanging thoughts after all

But I don't see it that way. It is no refuge or whatsoever for me. You could say it is like a boat. Sometimes it is fun and exiting to let it slide with the current but most of the time I want to steer it myself. Dreams are just like that. I just enjoy my sleeptime in the way I want, I don't practice escapism by trying to sleep as much as I want Actually I don't sleep that much, because the previously mentioned time-dilemma I have. But I'd like to hear more of this last comment of yours, because I didn't actually understand what it meant. Could you clarify the refuge and game of pretense part?

I hope you can get something out of this chaotical ramblings...

-Un

Originally Posted by Unelias

If you have the power you don't HAVE to care about concequences of your actions since no one can really affect you or your actions. It is still up to the person whether he wants to be reckless and indifferent about the other people, which is again a moral problem. You can have a lot of power and influence, yet you can be very responsible about using it and utilize it by altruistic manner.

How can you utilize power in an altruistic manner, can you please provide an example? I really can't think of one. Only images like feeding of the poor and making outstanding presents come to mind, but that's not really freedom in the sense as you described it, as there's no counter-action and resistance that you could use power to overcome.

This would be good clarification into my life too. Something like my motto perhaps :

Life without challenge is nothing. In such a hollowed state the difference between the absolute power and the absolute powerlessness becomes almost undetectable.

If the only thing that gives life meaning is fighting a challenge, then do you ever have time to enjoy life itself, unconditionally?

Yes I do understand this is very hard for others to understand. I am quite abstract man in many ways too. I find it also hard to shape my thoughts in English since I mainly operate with my native language.

That's a problem you get when writing online. I'm quite sure that talking would be different, you get all kinds of visual feedback in real-time and can correct your words accordingly. All we can do here is try our best to be understood by each other, despite the limitations of the written word.

I am very interested about human potential. What we can do and when the limit comes in to the game. I have trained many, many different things and I constantly find new things to research. But since we have limited time I become frustrated since I cannot develope myself enough, when there are so many things I am interested in learning.

May I ask a question: if you're interested when the limit comes into the game, then why do you switch activities? The goal and the behaviour look contradicting. If you switch frequently, then you can't discover where your limit is. Or do you manage to discover it quickly most of the time?

In short, I love learning. Too bad there is not that much of use of jack-of-all-trades nowadays, since our society is build pretty much up on people who specialise in something and master it. I don't want to limit myself to solely one thing, that would be boring, wouldn't it?

I understand you there, I dislike staying with one thing for long, too, for the same reason. But do you have permanent hobbies or permanent activities at all?

Now for the problem. I am pretty rough on myself when it comes to failing, especially if it is about something I should have already mastered in some degree. I don't actually care if other people fail, I am not the one who is yelling at them. Since I am into such a large diversity of subjects, it is natural that failures do occur, mostly due the lack of training.

That must come from your over-evaluation (from my point of view) of the challenge. Failing can be pleasant, too, can't it? If it's not, then I picture that you'd feel like all you've done for it was a waste of your time, and that's not a pleasant thought.

That is why I am driven forward by this.. hunger. It is my ego that demands me to continue untill I succeed. After another milestone has been reached, the hunger is sated for a while. Is this still too abstract?

No, not abstract anymore. But I'd like to clarify some things, as you don't seem to mind and I'm curious . Does that mean that you're performing most of your activites alone and others aren't necessarily aware of them?

Simply put, I love learning, training, developing myself, becoming stronger and more skillfull all the time.

Why? I know it's a general question, because such a general motivation in life is probably very hard to discover. But I'm very curious as to what you can say about it.

I can get carried away by my training so that I don't realise that I have been punching a sandbag for two hours straight and I drop down dead tired after the realization. I can draw eight hours without even knowing I need to eat or such. Once I got so obsessed by learning a certain song that I played guitar all night and woke up with skin all torn from my fingers.

Wow.

No need to apologize. People think too much of what they say in fear of hurting other people's feelings. We are exchanging thoughts after all

The problem with rules is that you never know whether the person you're talking to has the same ones or not. It never hurts to use the best rules, the better they are the less chances that conversing will be irrevocably distorted for reasons incomprehensible to you.

I just enjoy my sleeptime in the way I want, I don't practice escapism by trying to sleep as much as I want Actually I don't sleep that much, because the previously mentioned time-dilemma I have.

You really don't sound like a power-monger. Maybe it's me who has too strict connotations for this word, but you do not sound like somebody who practices dream-control for power to me.

But I'd like to hear more of this last comment of yours, because I didn't actually understand what it meant. Could you clarify the refuge and game of pretense part?

It was my guess about people's motivations. When they say that controlling DCs is power, then what does it mean? I make a guess that maybe they can't control people in real life, so they use lucid dreams for this purpose. In this way it's a pretense refuge from "bad" life without power over people.

I may be stretching it too far. And almost for sure I am. But in the forum an in-depth conversation is rarely happening, so you have to make very generalizing guesses.

How can you utilize power in an altruistic manner, can you please provide an example? I really can't think of one. Only images like feeding of the poor and making outstanding presents come to mind, but that's not really freedom in the sense as you described it, as there's no counter-action and resistance that you could use power to overcome.

As I said, for me power represents only the possibility of carrying on the action you desire, when it is hindered by anything, be it other human, nature or odds. Doesn't the idea of Voltaire's enlightened monarchy sound like altruistic, for example? There the power is used in the good of many. Not that I think there could be that sophisticated leader anyways. I am not fan of any form of goverment as said before. But it is quite simple. Just use your influence and means to help as many as you can.

If the only thing that gives life meaning is fighting a challenge, then do you ever have time to enjoy life itself, unconditionally?

For my point of view, life doesn't have any greater meaning. We are born, we live, we wither, we die. Just make the journey as pleasant as you can so you can die without regrets. I don't want to have an easy, normal life. For me life is a challenge, an adventure or nothing. Some people just like to live there face against the blowing wind it keeps me awake and interested. But for clarification, I do enjoy life time to time I just have very pessimistic view about world and mankind.

That's a problem you get when writing online. I'm quite sure that talking would be different, you get all kinds of visual feedback in real-time and can correct your words accordingly. All we can do here is try our best to be understood by each other, despite the limitations of the written word.

Yes sadly, we don't have the possibility for that at the moment, so let us continue decryphing letters written one after another

May I ask a question: if you're interested when the limit comes into the game, then why do you switch activities? The goal and the behaviour look contradicting. If you switch frequently, then you can't discover where your limit is. Or do you manage to discover it quickly most of the time?

I need to form the basis of my skillset now, constantly evaluate my progress and trying to find the best way to learn each thing. So you could say I am at the moment honing more the actual learning process than the mere skills themselves. In the progress I drop out the things I have found unnecessary or waste of time and earmark the ones I am going to focus. For example I have had periods when I have focused solely on art and left almost anything else for like months. I get carried away by the inspiration of learning so I can train that one skill for whole day, for weeks untill I line down the basics and understand it better. Then I can cut the training for smaller amounts and starting other activities again.

I understand you there, I dislike staying with one thing for long, too, for the same reason. But do you have permanent hobbies or permanent activities at all?

I do. I do have my permanent areas, which include martial arts, security, art, literature, music, philosophy, psychology, history, poetry, massaging... list is quite long and yes it consumes much of my time. The fun factor is that I am not that interested in the things most of the people are. For example, I almost breathe martial arts but I cannot stand sports, excluding couple of them.

That must come from your over-evaluation (from my point of view) of the challenge. Failing can be pleasant, too, can't it? If it's not, then I picture that you'd feel like all you've done for it was a waste of your time, and that's not a pleasant thought.

From over-evaluation and from tremendous goals and deadlines I put for myself. Yes, failing can be "pleasant" in some sense, but for me it is just another chance for insight and fixing my actions and major motivator. Failing is just product of too little training or training done incorrectly.

No, not abstract anymore. But I'd like to clarify some things, as you don't seem to mind and I'm curious . Does that mean that you're performing most of your activites alone and others aren't necessarily aware of them?

Curiosity is a great thing you can ask whatever you like but depending of the question you might not get the answer on this thread. Yes, you are quite correct in major sense. I don't like team games or team projects since my ways of operating are very unique and I grow weary of trying to explain myself to others. I can do that, but I just like acting alone. For example, I like solo activites since you can be 100% sure it was your fault. Nobody is accusing others for the failure or closing them off the game, if you know what I mean. And yes, most of the people are very surprised of the things I know and can do, especially if I am surpassing them in someone they have solely specialised. Not even people who know me the best know even the half of the things I have done or tried. There is just too much to be told in a reasonable time

Why? I know it's a general question, because such a general motivation in life is probably very hard to discover. But I'm very curious as to what you can say about it.

Good question. There are some things you cannot fully explain in sensible way. I think it is curioisity, strange as it sounds, it is the main motivator for me. Maybe I am seeking some kind of truth, maybe I think I'll discover something that shakes my worldview or then I just want to experience differents things, prepare me for any situation so I can survive. Perhaps it is some kind of self-esteem problem from the childhood that forces me to become better. I haven't pinpointed it yet. But succeeding gives me great satisfaction.

The problem with rules is that you never know whether the person you're talking to has the same ones or not. It never hurts to use the best rules, the better they are the less chances that conversing will be irrevocably distorted for reasons incomprehensible to you.

A quite polite and sophisticated thought. Politeness is good. But as this moment forward you don't have to care about any of those rules when writing to me there is nothing you could say that could hurt me.

You really don't sound like a power-monger. Maybe it's me who has too strict connotations for this word, but you do not sound like somebody who practices dream-control for power to me.

People usually think that power corrupts, which might be usually the case. I don't know what it does for me since I have always been quite free from all moral codes or such. But I really use dreams for insight, to research myself for better understanding. Of course, it gives me more power, more self-awareness and confidence. I don't know if you are aware but fighting alone against everyone and their opinions can be soulshattering experience. When they asked at the 2nd grade what is most important thing for us, I was the only one who voted for freedom. Everybody else's pick was family, friends or love and such. By no means I don't want to bash them down, but for me, without freedom those all are quite meaningless. Like them, I have the right for an opinion, isn't that right so I have been somehow on this track from very, very young age.

It was my guess about people's motivations. When they say that controlling DCs is power, then what does it mean? I make a guess that maybe they can't control people in real life, so they use lucid dreams for this purpose. In this way it's a pretense refuge from "bad" life without power over people.

Might be true for someone, but I hardly think it is for me. I do have power and means to control other people, I am good at recognising feelings and intentions and I know how to manipulate them. But just because you have the power, it doesn't you have the will to use it.
Did you know that there is a psychology research and theory that dream's purpose is actually to act as a survival simulator to prepare humans for different situations, social or otherwise? Just a theory, but it is a strange idea to be pondered.

I may be stretching it too far. And almost for sure I am. But in the forum an in-depth conversation is rarely happening, so you have to make very generalizing guesses.

Well generalisation is the way to pinpoint the actual problem and narrow it, so no stress over that

Originally Posted by Unelias

But it is quite simple. Just use your influence and means to help as many as you can.

Hmm but univeral agreements don't exist. Maybe you consider what you do help, but there are those who think that you're wrong and they don't need this help. Then you're stepping down on their freedom, no matter how altruistically you feel. What I want to say is that power can't be used for the good of many in real life, only in novels it happens like that, life in novels is too simplified. That renders an idea of "good power" to be a utopia.

For my point of view, life doesn't have any greater meaning. We are born, we live, we wither, we die. Just make the journey as pleasant as you can so you can die without regrets. I don't want to have an easy, normal life. For me life is a challenge, an adventure or nothing. Some people just like to live there face against the blowing wind it keeps me awake and interested. But for clarification, I do enjoy life time to time I just have very pessimistic view about world and mankind.

That's quite a normal attitude, making the journey as pleasant as you can. Everybody is already doing it.

Making a challenge an object of pleasure is rather interesting, but I wouldn't adopt it after you. The big problem is dependance on success rate. I wouldn't want to be a slave to it. Sure everybody already depends on success rate to some extent, but I think that adopting this kind of life philosophy would put a lot more emphasis on it. And then it's a double-edged sword, and in the long run you depend on chance. If you happen to be successful you're euphoric, if you happen to fail you're miserable. That's not my idea of pleasure, pleasure must be indepenant of external circumstances

I do have my permanent areas, which include martial arts, security, art, literature, music, philosophy, psychology, history, poetry, massaging...

How permanent are these permanent hobbies? I'd say that something can be called permanent if you do it at least every next day...

Yes, failing can be "pleasant" in some sense, but for me it is just another chance for insight and fixing my actions and major motivator. Failing is just product of too little training or training done incorrectly.

What will you do if you fall ill seriously (say cancer) and totally fail to get cured? In a situation when you've already completely lost and you know that you can't train a little to fight it better? Won't it become a moment when your life philosophy fails?

Not even people who know me the best know even the half of the things I have done or tried. There is just too much to be told in a reasonable time

I have a very high opinion of myself, too, but from the looks of it, not as high as yours!

A quite polite and sophisticated thought. Politeness is good.

Actually I tried to verbalize a thought in a way to hide egoism with which I thought it was reeking. I guess it succeeded too well if you call it polite

But as this moment forward you don't have to care about any of those rules when writing to me there is nothing you could say that could hurt me.

Freedom to speak as you want is a complex matter.

Ultimately I come to a conclusion that freedom of expression doesn't exist online. Here we don't talk to people we know well, so it's mostly talking to a vague image in your head that you donned with imaginary characteristics. If I started speaking "as I want" to you, I'm sure I would not be speaking to you personally, or rather I'd be speaking to you even less than I speak to you now. That would be a "free" expression of an attitude for somebody else in past who reminds of your imaginary image, or perhaps even to people in general. But not to you.

If you remember an example of a woman venting anger from another thread, I think that speaking freely would ultimately achieve this very effect. It would call forth new irrelevant feelings totally unrelated to a person who's being talked to. Not that it isn't happening now, but trading one social mask for another makes little sense in my opinion, even if a new one pretends to be more "free".

What's your opinion? You said you speak freely.

I do have power and means to control other people, I am good at recognising feelings and intentions and I know how to manipulate them. But just because you have the power, it doesn't you have the will to use it.

I disagree that manipulation is power. Let's use a usual example, you know how people point at a lady who married a rich husband and say that she has power over him? Power to make him buy her cars, houses, etc.

I think it isn't true, there's no real power involved there. Real power would be to take all those things from him without giving anything in return. What the lady used, if she was indeed intent on money and not on a man himself, was social code that enabled her to have expensive gifts in exchange for being tender and good-looking for her rich husband. That can be called wits, but not power, she merely used existing rules and didn't bend them.

Manipulation is much alike, you have to use wits, not power. Isn't that weakness when you have to resort to wits?

After this I need to ask you, what else do you consider power over people, except manipulation? Because we started from comparing power over people to power over DCs, and manipulating people is something that I can't very well compare in my mind to manipulating DCs.

Did you know that there is a psychology research and theory that dream's purpose is actually to act as a survival simulator to prepare humans for different situations, social or otherwise? Just a theory, but it is a strange idea to be pondered.

Yes, only the idea itself stands little scrutiny imho. The first thing that comes to mind is people dreaming of sex, what kind of danger is it that a survival simulator is needed

Originally Posted by Arutad

Hmm but univeral agreements don't exist. Maybe you consider what you do help, but there are those who think that you're wrong and they don't need this help. Then you're stepping down on their freedom, no matter how altruistically you feel. What I want to say is that power can't be used for the good of many in real life, only in novels it happens like that, life in novels is too simplified. That renders an idea of "good power" to be a utopia.

I agree with that, but I was just pointing out how the majority of people would think. I don't hold any ideas of good or evil, they are completely trivial for me. However, you could say that your intent is altruistic, which can be considered somewhat as a virtue by the majority. People just shouldn't mess with other people's affairs too much

That's quite a normal attitude, making the journey as pleasant as you can. Everybody is already doing it.

It is. Still many people try to seek a greater meaning and forgot about the life itself. Why would there be anything greater than life, which enables every other action?

Making a challenge an object of pleasure is rather interesting, but I wouldn't adopt it after you. The big problem is dependance on success rate. I wouldn't want to be a slave to it. Sure everybody already depends on success rate to some extent, but I think that adopting this kind of life philosophy would put a lot more emphasis on it. And then it's a double-edged sword, and in the long run you depend on chance. If you happen to be successful you're euphoric, if you happen to fail you're miserable. That's not my idea of pleasure, pleasure must be indepenant of external circumstances

And you definitetly should not follow it. You probably wouldn't want to get bitten by a radioactive spider just because the Spiderman got himself superpowers out of it? I just enjoy hardship and misery a lot more than others. My whole worldview is based on misery, which is occasionally brighted by joy. This doesn't, however, mean that I would feel myself miserable I just get bored easily, I couldn't picture myself having a stable, "normal" life in some senses. Yes, that can lead to a slavedom, in same way that you can be enslaved by freedom. If you are familiar with the idea. However I don't intend to be a slave for it. A lot of things in life are decided with dice and let's keep it that way, makes life a lot more interesting let's just say that I will try to load the dices every now and then and see if I succeed. Winning a challenge or figuring out a puzzle is not my only form of pleasure though. I am very multi-dimensional person, I can be very hedonistic and on the next day I can try to seek hardship and misery.

How permanent are these permanent hobbies? I'd say that something can be called permanent if you do it at least every next day...

Permanent in a sense that I have been doing them for at least three years leading as far as tens of years. I practice them daily if I can, but given the current situation, I have been forced to cut some of them off for a while. Annoying. :/ but yes, I believe they are considered permanent in most of the senses. At least long-term if not permanent. For example, year ago I usually read one to three books a day. I am a really fast reader so I don't have to use much of time for it and still I can get the most fun and usefulness out of it.

What will you do if you fall ill seriously (say cancer) and totally fail to get cured? In a situation when you've already completely lost and you know that you can't train a little to fight it better? Won't it become a moment when your life philosophy fails?

No, it will be most likely the moment I will die. I see no reason why my life philosophy could fail in anyway. My no-holds-barred trainer once said this : "If you are in the ring and you get your arm broken, you punch him with your another arm. If her brokes that too, you will kick him to the ground. If he brokes your knees, you will bash him unconscious with your forehead." If my legs wouldn't work anymore I can still write, read, play, draw... If my arms get disabled, I can still read and think. That is just the moment dices roll a bad number I can think a lot more philosophies that will actually fail once you get incurable cancer than mine. For me death is unavoidable and natural part of life, which can happen any moment. I feel quite inpassionate about life and death as a whole. When I cease to exist I will accept that as I accept the rain that started pouring down when I was on my way to the store. I have no afterlife, no karma, no god to beg for forgiveness, no reincarnation, no fear for any hell. It is just end of my life.

I have a very high opinion of myself, too, but from the looks of it, not as high as yours!

hmm maybe. It is more like that I just like to keep it myself , it's not that I would hold myself in any great value.

Freedom to speak as you want is a complex matter.

Ultimately I come to a conclusion that freedom of expression doesn't exist online. Here we don't talk to people we know well, so it's mostly talking to a vague image in your head that you donned with imaginary characteristics. If I started speaking "as I want" to you, I'm sure I would not be speaking to you personally, or rather I'd be speaking to you even less than I speak to you now. That would be a "free" expression of an attitude for somebody else in past who reminds of your imaginary image, or perhaps even to people in general. But not to you.

Of course the limits of our form of interaction are great. Face to face is always better, so we can cut down unavoidable misunderstandings. we are making profiles of each other as you said, and usually we interpret the things that are said or written in a way which fits more to our personal agenda or form we have constructed of each other. We expect something and when the criteria is not met our pictures of each other are shaken and redefined. Leads usually to irritation by the way, since our expectations were pushed aside. We can blame the human mind, because it tries to handle things by anchoring and linking them to our past experiences and incidents.

If you remember an example of a woman venting anger from another thread, I think that speaking freely would ultimately achieve this very effect. It would call forth new irrelevant feelings totally unrelated to a person who's being talked to. Not that it isn't happening now, but trading one social mask for another makes little sense in my opinion, even if a new one pretends to be more "free".

I do remember. Well, usually free speech is destined to stir up problems, that's why dictators want to ban it

My ultimate point is that for me to conversate with you, it is a lot better that if you want to say something, if you are bitten by the urge to express an opinion because something I said : Do it. It leads us forward and we can talk more about the matter Also, if we bite our tongues too much we run out of things to discuss. ^^

I disagree that manipulation is power. Let's use a usual example, you know how people point at a lady who married a rich husband and say that she has power over him? Power to make him buy her cars, houses, etc.

I think it isn't true, there's no real power involved there. Real power would be to take all those things from him without giving anything in return. What the lady used, if she was indeed intent on money and not on a man himself, was social code that enabled her to have expensive gifts in exchange for being tender and good-looking for her rich husband. That can be called wits, but not power, she merely used existing rules and didn't bend them.

Manipulation is much alike, you have to use wits, not power. Isn't that weakness when you have to resort to wits?

I really should come up with some new English word for the thing I mean to avoid raising familiar schematas for people I have a Finnish word for it, which in a way is same as word power, but it includes a lot more i.e wits. That is why capability is a good word, it includes every tool you have in your usage to carve your path in this world. But personally, I don't think that for example money is "a real power". Sadly, in this world it is one of the greatest tools to advance and get more what you desire.

Resorting for wits isn't a weakness in any way. I am not talking about mere raw power here, the urge to bash your way through any problem . What separates wits from e.g money is that wits is something that is inside you. You are rendered powerless if you don't have the money anymore. If you still have sharp mind and intelligence, you can keep on going. Of course if you have gathered that money with our intelligence and not from lottery, it can be seen to be result of your wits. That is why you have to keep on developing yourself, not resorting to something external. For example, I don't consider a shooting skill with a mechanical weapon like a gun as useful as ability to win your opponent with bare hands or without external weapons.

After this I need to ask you, what else do you consider power over people, except manipulation? Because we started from comparing power over people to power over DCs, and manipulating people is something that I can't very well compare in my mind to manipulating DCs.

Basically everything you can do to have an effect on their actions. Everything you can do to stop them from thwarting yours. Even charisma is form of power. It is influence over someone, even if the user is unaware of it. If someone adores you from the bottom of his heart, you are already reached your power over him. If someone fears you like hell, you have already grasped him from inside. Almost everything can be basically turned into a way to overpower someone or stop him from trying to restrict you.

I really wanted to put more on the last chapter since I feel like I have expressed only very minor amount of my thoughts there. But I have slept only about ten hours total in this week so I think I will go to sleep I am looking forward to more points you bring up, so it is easier for me to answer. Hopefully, my brains work a lot better when I wake up

Originally Posted by Unelias

Still many people try to seek a greater meaning and forgot about the life itself. Why would there be anything greater than life, which enables every other action?

What is "life"? How do you enjoy "life"?

You probably wouldn't want to get bitten by a radioactive spider just because the Spiderman got himself superpowers out of it?

Provided that it's a right kind of superpowers I would

I just enjoy hardship and misery a lot more than others. My whole worldview is based on misery, which is occasionally brighted by joy. This doesn't, however, mean that I would feel myself miserable I just get bored easily, I couldn't picture myself having a stable, "normal" life in some senses.

We're the opposite of each other then, all I'm looking for is permanent pleasure and easy ways to achieve it

Is your pleasure pride-based? That's the only thing I can think of. If challenge is pleasurable for you, then I picture that pleasure comes from being proud that you've accomplished it. Or is it something else?

For example, year ago I usually read one to three books a day. I am a really fast reader so I don't have to use much of time for it and still I can get the most fun and usefulness out of it.p

Fast reading must be one of the abovementioned superpowers

How many pages per a book? I'm wondering how many pages that was that you could read in one day, I myself am an avid reader. The quantity of pages provided that you slept on that day, too.

No, it will be most likely the moment I will die.

I don't understand. Will you kill yourself out of despair or will you truly fail only after you die?

My no-holds-barred trainer once said this : "If you are in the ring and you get your arm broken, you punch him with your another arm. If her brokes that too, you will kick him to the ground. If he brokes your knees, you will bash him unconscious with your forehead." If my legs wouldn't work anymore I can still write, read, play, draw... If my arms get disabled, I can still read and think. That is just the moment dices roll a bad number

That's horrible and was almost painful to read. I think I'd commit suicide if such things happened to me, there wouldn't be any point to life. It couldn't be lived in a good way anymore, only in a miserably and irrevocably limited one.

We expect something and when the criteria is not met our pictures of each other are shaken and redefined. Leads usually to irritation by the way, since our expectations were pushed aside.

In our case we can be shaken hard by each other, or much dissapointed in each other. We aren't acquainted too closely to make coherent images and then have them fail.

Internet is a wonderful invention.

I do remember. Well, usually free speech is destined to stir up problems, that's why dictators want to ban it

Too late Dictators have a bad image in most countries. Although if some global catastrohe happened and quality of life plummeted down, we'd have much better things to think of than what kind of people rule us.

My ultimate point is that for me to conversate with you, it is a lot better that if you want to say something, if you are bitten by the urge to express an opinion because something I said : Do it. It leads us forward and we can talk more about the matter Also, if we bite our tongues too much we run out of things to discuss. ^^

Are you completely sure that you're always expressing yourself freely?

Resorting for wits isn't a weakness in any way. I am not talking about mere raw power here, the urge to bash your way through any problem .

Maybe you're right. But for me power is something raw and violent. That's because I'm naturally weak as a woman and I am very well aware of it. If in your life you always had to use wits in situation that could've easily be solved with raw power, you'd start thinking that wits have nothing to do with power .

About you I can understand, if you never felt overpowered and having to use wits, than usage of wits was only an addition to power.

Most likely the definition of power is situational. For me wits was objectively a weakness sometimes, in case if problems could be solved otherwise

So here, we see how personal experience and nature can influence the definition of words.

Basically everything you can do to have an effect on their actions. Everything you can do to stop them from thwarting yours.

Even if it's begging and groveling on your knees? Still power?

Even charisma is form of power. It is influence over someone, even if the user is unaware of it.

But that's an illusion, it's a subjective idea. You have your own rules to draw a conclusion that it's a form of power, and another person has his or her own rules . Sure nowadays there's great awareness of things like the ad tricks that sell you stuff, and almost everybody would consider a one-sided idea of charisma-based power to be a real power. But is that really the case.

If someone adores you from the bottom of his heart, you are already reached your power over him. If someone fears you like hell, you have already grasped him from inside. Almost everything can be basically turned into a way to overpower someone or stop him from trying to restrict you.

I can't force myself to agree. For one thing, the person may be lying that he adores you, or that he fears you. The first case is wide-spread, especially bosses usually think that some of their workers like them a lot . In this case the illusion is seen for what it is, although you as a boss might pride yourself on how much power you have over your workers.

So it boils down to the question, is a one-sided idea of power true, or does it require all sides involved to agree on its nature?

But I have slept only about ten hours total in this week so I think I will go to sleep

That's very bad for health, don't do that too often

What is "life"? How do you enjoy "life"?

Life is everything you do while alive. Not something you do after you are gone. I personally cannot agree with an idea of life being a gateway to the real life, for example. ( Christianity). People worry too much, they seek great philosophies to rely on, they bond themselves to things that are futile in the end and sacrifice themselves for something that is destined to crumble anyways. All this makes humans very interesting though.

Provided that it's a right kind of superpowers I would

Which would quite accuratetly make you a power-monger, wouldn't it? Assuming you have 99% chance of dying to the radiation without getting any superpowers at all.

We're the opposite of each other then, all I'm looking for is permanent pleasure and easy ways to achieve it

For me there is no such thing as permanent everything with a form will crumble and be destroyed. When it comes to the easy way, that is even less permanent. I will be very bored if life is too easy, if it goes in the same old routine and I don't have to do anything hard.

Is your pleasure pride-based? That's the only thing I can think of. If challenge is pleasurable for you, then I picture that pleasure comes from being proud that you've accomplished it. Or is it something else?

It is probably something else. Pride is usually an emotion that needs other people. People who you can rank lower than you, which leads to the feeling of pride. That you are special or more than others etc. I don't want to be acknowledged, I have no need for respect or pride in that sense. I don't want to leave traces or be written in history. I do have a self-pride though, I will push myself to the limits and try to break the limits every time. So you could say it has something to do with pride. I just don't compare myself to anyone else, but to the earlier, weaker me. Challenge just keeps me awake and interested.

Fast reading must be one of the abovementioned superpowers
How many pages per a book? I'm wondering how many pages that was that you could read in one day, I myself am an avid reader. The quantity of pages provided that you slept on that day, too.

Hardly a superpower. Just a result of vigorous training. How many pages you ask? Well it depends heavily on the type of book. You do understand that reading process with Dostoyevsky ( a strange way to write it in English ) and with Stephen King are world's apart but if I am reading a standart novel I could say that 1500-1700 pages a day ( in Finnish). By straining and leaving anything but reading aside, I probably could read a lot. I must try sometime

I don't understand. Will you kill yourself out of despair or will you truly fail only after you die?

Will somebody succeed after they die? maybe someone does. Suicide in despair something I loathe. It is just the sign that you were too weak to face the life. On the other hand, ritual suicides are quite interesting, since they have different motives behind them.

I ment that if I had a tumor that will be lethal, I will die because of it. Nothing more. Untill my brain stops from working I can still live and continue.

That's horrible and was almost painful to read. I think I'd commit suicide if such things happened to me, there wouldn't be any point to life. It couldn't be lived in a good way anymore, only in a miserably and irrevocably limited one.

I am sorry to awaken such a feelings. It is pretty much reality though, anything can happen anytime. You can be crippled or dead in ten seconds. I have actually thought a lot that it would be very, very interesting if I someday became blind. I have heard blind people can sense enviroment via sounds, very much like a sonic wave. I would like to learn that or see how I can cope with the blindness.

But that statement includes pretty much my attitude towards life. In Finnish language and culture we have a word called sisu. I don't know if you are aware what that means, but there are some words that have a same kind, yet largely separate meaning. Words like guts, perservance, endurance, willpower, spirit, they are all something that a word sisu includes. When you are wrapped in cold winter storm and you have to keep on hacking down those frozen trees to get yourself a wood to the stove, you are using your sisu. I could tell you more of this particular word since it is very unique aspect of Finnish culture. In short, you just got to keep on going even if odds are against you and you are losing.

Are you completely sure that you're always expressing yourself freely?

Of course not. But that is my pure intention. Usually when I am drunk or in some other drug, I express myself even more freely. But I don't usually think twice if it is appropriate to say something, I just say it. Still politeness is quite good aspect in all areas of life.

Maybe you're right. But for me power is something raw and violent. That's because I'm naturally weak as a woman and I am very well aware of it. If in your life you always had to use wits in situation that could've easily be solved with raw power, you'd start thinking that wits have nothing to do with power .

That might be true, but for me it is just another tool in the box to get the job done.

About you I can understand, if you never felt overpowered and having to use wits, than usage of wits was only an addition to power.

I prefer to use wits, no need to use physical force if you can subdue someone with verbal or psychological tools only. Physical force is just a reserve if everything else comes out bad and if I don't have time to react with anything else.

Most likely the definition of power is situational. For me wits was objectively a weakness sometimes, in case if problems could be solved otherwise

Well if we want to be realistic, everything is situational but yes, it's not weakness to get your job done and survive. If there are other ways, you should just analyze them logically which one is most profitable and best for the situation.

So here, we see how personal experience and nature can influence the definition of words.

Naturally they do. But we are trying to bash down the barrier of language here.

Even if it's begging and groveling on your knees? Still power?

My thoughts about it are the same that a medieval knight would have for the first firearm fighting soldiers. It gets the job done, but it lacks the glory and the requirement for real skill or strength. In the same way as world championship in the ring despises a street brawler who uses dirty tricks to win, yet he is overwhelmed by the fierceness and effectiviness of it. It all comes around into my philosophy to avoid all that is too easy or doesn't require everything you got. You have to work for it, train for it and finally master it.

But that's an illusion, it's a subjective idea. You have your own rules to draw a conclusion that it's a form of power, and another person has his or her own rules . Sure nowadays there's great awareness of things like the ad tricks that sell you stuff, and almost everybody would consider a one-sided idea of charisma-based power to be a real power. But is that really the case.

People live in illusion mostly. Our modern world is pretty much build on illusions, expectations and doubt. If you have been looking up to someone and respect him, you grasp his manners, his thoughts all the time. You let him affect you, change you. Even if he is not aware. That is all passive of his part, but if he starts actively mindwash you, then it is even more efficent. I'd say that is power if you can use mere words and sign language and your deeds to get someone do what your want.

I can't force myself to agree. For one thing, the person may be lying that he adores you, or that he fears you. The first case is wide-spread, especially bosses usually think that some of their workers like them a lot . In this case the illusion is seen for what it is, although you as a boss might pride yourself on how much power you have over your workers.

Then the boss is uncapable of perceveing feelings and thus is a bad leader. Of course if you are bound with the illusions you will get the result as you mentioned. But if you know by heart that you are right about it, you have no need to doubt. I don't know that much of adoring, but fear I can smell and feel from others. Fear is hard to fake and you get no benefits of faking it. Once the heart is striken with fear, doubt surfaces. Doubt is the reason why people are so easily resulting to emotion-based, illogical decisions and thus are easy to be controlled. That is why, when in leading position you must be evaluating your underlings and the situation all the time, so you can keep on track about their mind.

So it boils down to the question, is a one-sided idea of power true, or does it require all sides involved to agree on its nature?

Results matter. It is all the same if the other person fakes his feelings or whatever, if your will is the one that remains and is done.

That's very bad for health, don't do that too often

Well I had a battle training camp for a week in the woods. Not much sleep during a battle. Might be you never wake up anymore

Originally Posted by Arutad

Even if it's begging and groveling on your knees? Still power?

that's where it really starts, then you realize the rest was just an illusion made for children. but i suspect this was just the start for you too, so you must know how the road splits in the end.

Xei I like the way you view and express things. I see the same political games being played out here in The Netherlands. It seems to be worldwide.

My plan is to move out from here, gathering a massive amount of likeminded people and starting over somewhere new. Maybe we could raise a fund, put our money together and buy an island or a piece of land and split the costs equally. If about 100 people are serious about this they together can put together ALOT of money.

Then I was thinking: How to make electricity? Well human waste is perfect for that. In a certain tank with a filter Methane gas can be derrived from it; which is a highly flamable gas. Methane gas engines would have to be used which can run and generate electricity in a generator. And of human waste, and thus Methane, there will allways be enough.
If a simple sewer system was built under the houses so that the toilet of every house would lead all human waste into one big storage tank that filters out methane then this could continuously supply the fuel needed for running the electricity generator.

To make sure we don't have starving or homeless people I have thought of everyone having their own farming land(rice, grains, potatoes, casave, fruits, vegetables..etc) for their personal food supply. Maybe some chickens for eggs and meat, and goats for meat and milk/cheese. There are vertical aerogardens that take up little land-space and yet can produce sufficient food to harvest.
Bringing some people with farming experience & knowledge might be helpfull. Fishing ponds where fish are breeded and fed and eventually caught and eaten. Enough sustainable foodsources.

Also essential is to try and bring some medically knowledgable people with you. Like a Doctor, a Dentist, a surgeon, a Pharmacist, a Nurse, a Shaman healer..etc
And off course all their knowledge should be documented so it can eventually be taught to future generations of dentists, surgeons, pharmacists, shamans, doctors and farmers.

And off course, perhaps most important; a Clean, continuous drinking watersupply. I had this idea, in case of living on an island or near the sea, of a great cylinder shaped building where the seawater could flow into. A transparent, glass dome on top of it would allow sunlight to heat up the seawater inside of it( especially if the interior is painted black).
Then the seawater would vaporise, condense on the inside of the Glass dome and drip back down into a separate containerrinking water. In the process it leaves all of the salt, and other impurities behind. If this is the way we would supply ourselves with drinking water we would also have an eternal mountain of seasalt. Any excess seasalt, which we would have plenty, could be traded to get money for supplies from other countries like medicines, medical/dental tools, mandatory basic hospital equipment...etc

Surely I don't expect this to be an easy Endeavor. But with enough likeminded people joining forces it becomes possible.
If society is reduced down to this simple form, so individuals are not obsessed with becomming as wealthy as possible, but instead being concerned about being able to survive in a self-providing, sustainable, free and enjoyable way, then such a human community might be alot less likely to be overcome and enslaved by corporate control-maniacs that bring chaos, violence, polarity, slavery and general decay to human communities for their own benefit.

We are slaves to corporates because we are dependant on them for EVERYTHING. Drinking water, food, electricity, Medicine/Healthcare, Housing, Education, Internet..etc All brought to us by corporates. These things are essential for human welbeing and survival. And since they provide this all to us we would be lost without them. And so they make the rules. If we don't do as they please (usually pay lots of money:Bills, Rent, Taxes, Cash)they will cut our electricity, throw us out of our houses, shut down our drinking water, deny us Medicine/Healthcare, deny us education..etc

From where I'm sitting the only way to break free of this dependance-slavery is to buy land and raise up a new country where everyone is taught to be selfproviding in food and essential community services (like Healthcare, Clean Drinking water, Electricity) should be free of costs and garanteed for all.
People should work at the Powerplant, because they appreciate eletricity in their house, not because they want to become materially enriched. Same for Healthcare or someone who works at the water-purification plant.

SKA are you completely sure you are posting into the right thread and not to the one that rounds around "Utopia"?

Just thinking

Originally Posted by Unelias

SKA are you completely sure you are posting into the right thread and not to the one that rounds around "Utopia"?

Just thinking

Well I was thinking of escaping this power obsessed way of life and from my point of view the only way to do it is this "Utopian" project.

Not so Utopian since I do not intend or believe to make life spotless and perfect, but merely more bearable, more free/happy and more secure. We can discuss a problem endlessly, but I myself rather focus on the possible Solutions to a problem.

And please don't call every fantasy about how to improve the quality of life and sustainability of a Human Community a Utopia: This simply shuts you down from the idea that people could improve socially.

My "Utopia" is mostly about freedom; An aspect of Humanity that desperately needs to be improved.

Originally Posted by SKA

And please don't call every fantasy about how to improve the quality of life and sustainability of a Human could Community a Utopia: This simply shuts you down from the idea that people improve socially.

I don't recall calling anyone's fantasy an utopia. I am just thinking rationally. I am still pretty sure you are writing into wrong thread since I cannot find a way how anything you posted makes any relevance to this matter.

Originally Posted by SKA

My "Utopia" is mostly about freedom; An aspect of Humanity that desperately needs to be improved.

Most people just don't care about real freedom. They live in illusion that they have freedom, but in the end they are caged birds. In order to live in freedom, you must leave many things behind and break all outside restrictions.

Originally Posted by sleepingdog

that's where it really starts, then you realize the rest was just an illusion made for children. but i suspect this was just the start for you too, so you must know how the road splits in the end.

Can you clarify these sentences? I fail to understand what you were talking about. Namely, what was an illusion made for children.