Thread: The Hydrogen Economy

Originally Posted by Xei

About 1% of the US's defence budget would sort that out nicely, methinks.

amen

Originally Posted by Xei

Yeah I just edited my post to adress that. I'm still waiting for evidence that it's over unity though? And I should point out that the vast majority of those hits simply have the words 'Griggs' and 'generator' on the same page. Google seemed to think I'd get more hits looking for 'Briggs generator', actually.

To be honest I'm quite dissapointed that you could have fallen for one of the oldest scams in the history of mankind, and then tried to ridicule my 'delusion' in a pretentious tone without giving any evidence to back yourself up. It's not even funny.

You can't make energy. There is probably more evidence for that fact than any of the other facts in science. It would obviously be wonderful for humanity if it were not true and as a result there are always going to be a large number of scammers out there making false claims about it, but it quite simply isn't so.

I think I'll go and get Gnome...

The actual name of the device is a hydrosonic pump. It is an over unity device in that it creates more heat energy than the electrical energy required to run it, but it is not a perpetual motion machine because in order for it to run itself, that energy would have to be converted back in to electricity and the extra energy would be lost. You can read the patent for it here which was awarded to its inventor, James L. Griggs. The company that is working on it is called HydroDynamics

I'm glad you all are enjoying this discussion. I had a late night whim to revive a thread that died three years ago. I'm glad you're into it.

The funny thing is, I remember this thread

It is an over unity device in that it creates more heat energy than the electrical energy required to run it, but it is not a perpetual motion machine because in order for it to run itself, that energy would have to be converted back in to electricity and the extra energy would be lost.

Haha. Where were you during... well, pretty much every physics class ever?

Just... step out. Perhaps read the energy article on Wikipedia. The introduction alone will suffice, actually.

This is also quite relevant.

Hmm, well at my desk. I've done very well in all of the physics classes I've taken, both in high school and college. If you would like for me to lay down the mathematical verification for this invention, I will; as long as you can assure me you would actually benefit from it.

Sure, give me the maths if you will. Unfortunately it will probably go right over my head, but the fact that you are trying to disprove the foundation of physics won't. You can't get more energy out than you put in, full stop. It doesn't matter what form it's in.

Originally Posted by Xei

Sure, give me the maths if you will. Unfortunately it will probably go right over my head, but the fact that you are trying to disprove the foundation of physics won't. You can't get more energy out than you put in, full stop. It doesn't matter what form it's in.

Check this video out from Tom Valone.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=0

It's just another video about another crackpot who thinks he's found another source of free energy. It's not as if any of us understands what he's saying particularly, so why are you so compelled by his speech? I watched about a minute of him talking and all that came across was that he was an egotistical asshole, personally.

Zero point energy is basically the lowest possible energy that a system can have, and loads of goons who don't properly understand what they're talking about think that it can somehow be extracted. They're wrong, by definition.

Originally Posted by Xei

Zero point energy is basically the lowest possible energy that a system can have, and loads of goons who don't properly understand what they're talking about think that it can somehow be extracted. They're wrong, by definition.

I agree with this belief.

However, I do think there could be a lot of unnoticed and untapped sources of energy all around that are for all intents and purposes "free." Obviously wind is more or less free for us in that it's there whether we use it or not. Same for solar and hydro. There could be more sources we simply haven't considered.

Along other lines, garbage is a very renewable resource, as is human and animal waste. Figure out how to use that for energy, and we're set!

Mhm, most governments are being ridiculously irresponsible about this. It'll all change soon, when oil prices become unbearable. But with the way things are going, most countries are going to have a dark age for a few years, until the government finally implements renewable sources.

It was only recently that our government approved of the severn dam, which'll produce 15% of the entire country's energy. 15%, and only now are they building the thing, and that's only because they've been forced to. It's ridiculous...

Originally Posted by Xei

Sure, give me the maths if you will. Unfortunately it will probably go right over my head, but the fact that you are trying to disprove the foundation of physics won't. You can't get more energy out than you put in, full stop. It doesn't matter what form it's in.

Xei, you are dismissing it without even understanding it. Electrical energy is put in to the pump; heat energy is produced in part from the kinetic energy from the pump and partly from energy released in the water. It isn't 'creating energy,' it is getting more energy out than is required to run the pump. Essentially, it is a new way to get energy from water, something that has never been done before because no one had found a way to get energy from water without having to put more energy into it first.

That's not maths.

What is this 'energy in the water', though? What form is it in? And how is it released?

Originally Posted by Xei

It's just another video about another crackpot who thinks he's found another source of free energy. It's not as if any of us understands what he's saying particularly, so why are you so compelled by his speech? I watched about a minute of him talking and all that came across was that he was an egotistical asshole, personally.

Zero point energy is basically the lowest possible energy that a system can have, and loads of goons who don't properly understand what they're talking about think that it can somehow be extracted. They're wrong, by definition.

Egotistical? You didn't watch the whole thing, so you really have no room to make an argument against what he presents. I am done with this thread. You are rude and your arguments are ignorant.

No, his are. Are you an expert in quantum physics?

Originally Posted by Xei

That's not maths.

What is this 'energy in the water', though? What form is it in? And how is it released?

You said math would go over you head. The machine uses changes in pressure in the fluid to make bubbles in the water that collapse in a mini shockwave. These small shockwaves convert the fluid to steam and heat is released.

At this point, I'm just paraphrasing what other people have written about it, so you might as well do your own reading if you want to know anything else about it. http://www.rexresearch.com/griggs/griggs.htm

If you still deny it as a fraud claiming to break the laws of physics then I don't know what else to say.

Originally Posted by Xei

Are you an expert in quantum physics?

Completely unrelated, but I can't wait till I finish my degree so I can finally answer yes to that question.

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

You said math would go over you head.

Obviously this was directed at someone else, but I highly doubt the maths will go over my head. Please reveal everything

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

The actual name of the device is a hydrosonic pump. It is an over unity device in that it creates more heat energy than the electrical energy required to run it, but it is not a perpetual motion machine because in order for it to run itself, that energy would have to be converted back in to electricity and the extra energy would be lost. You can read the patent for it here which was awarded to its inventor, James L. Griggs. The company that is working on it is called HydroDynamics

This is odd. Where would the extra energy go?
The site says you can't connect the output to the input because the conversion of heat to electricity is inefficient, which I can't see. No matter how inefficient it is, if you have enough stages of conversion of waste you should be able to get up to 99% efficiency.

I can buy the idea that you're actually taking energy out of water though. Intramolecular vibrational or rotational energy and all that.

You said math would go over you head. The machine uses changes in pressure in the fluid to make bubbles in the water that collapse in a mini shockwave. These small shockwaves convert the fluid to steam and heat is released.

Sounds pretty impossibe to me. I heard about this before actually, the whole bubble collapse thing. I heard they measured temperatures of thousands of degrees in a very small volume of the water, I think there was a horizon documentary about it. Turns out the guy who claimed to have achieved over 100% efficiency was a total fraud and he was never able to repeat his results to anybody. And still most sources of information, and there are not many, seem to think that Griggs generators are simply efficient pumps. Have you personally gathered any data?

I'm surprised you're taking a degree, having not yet accepted that a process can't be more than 100% efficient. That is pretty much the foundation of physics.

Originally Posted by Xei

Sounds pretty impossibe to me. I heard about this before actually, the whole bubble collapse thing. I heard they measured temperatures of thousands of degrees in a very small volume of the water, I think there was a horizon documentary about it. Turns out the guy who claimed to have achieved over 100% efficiency was a total fraud and he was never able to repeat his results to anybody. And still most sources of information, and there are not many, seem to think that Griggs generators are simply efficient pumps. Have you personally gathered any data?

Yeah it brought that to mind for me as well. There is only one way to get more energy out of a process than you put into it: a reaction. No mechanical process will give an output over unity.
So now we have two possibilities: A nuclear reaction or a chemical reaction. We can rule out the nuclear reaction through testing the composition of the water after the machine has been run - no fission or fusion products are present (hence why cold fusion is not a valid theory). The same could be done with a chemical reaction, but after some point, the reaction would reach completion, and the machine would fail to work.

Now I can go on speculating whether or not the machine actually does work; until some solid operational data is provided, we can safely assume that the machine does not work. This is because we have scientific laws that you have not yet proved incorrect. That is the beauty of the scientific method...

@Xei

Eh? Didn't he say

Originally Posted by Xaqaria

It isn't 'creating energy,' it is getting more energy out than is required to run the pump. Essentially, it is a new way to get energy from water

?

That doesn't sound like it breaks the law of conservation of energy - it's just another form of potential energy being harvested, right? Just like a coal generator produces more energy than it takes to run it. (Of course, this means the water generator's efficiency would fall to <100&#37; after a while, when all the water's potential energy was released)

Now the actual form that potential energy is in - that's a good question.

Yeah, that was my point. From what I can tell the only form of energy that's there for harvesting is the kinetic energy of the water molecules, which is of course produced by the heat put in to the system anyway. Apart from that, what is there..? Chemical bonds, which of course take in energy when they are destroyed, not release it... and matter energy equivalence, but of course that is impossible too in this situation.