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    1. #1
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Stem Cells and Human Cloning

      The issue of stem cells was brought up in the Politics and Religion thread, very interesting topic, so what do you guys/gals think? Are stem cells ok? Is the cloning of individual organs ok? Is human cloning ok? Would you want to be cloned? If you were cloned...would you and you're clone share the same consciousness?

      Personally, I think it's inevitable, a human will be cloned eventually. I have no problem with stem cell research and fully support the cloning of individual organs for transplant purposes and hope that the technology exists when I need a new liver.
      "This is your life, and it's ending one minute at a time."



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    2. #2
      Member Joseph_Stalin's Avatar
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      Not to mention the possibilities with human life-span. You could prepare a heart for yourself, and potentially live another 75 years. Then it's just a matter of transplanting other organs (and having plastic surgery or skin operations, etc.). Sure there's a few technicalities, but there's a lot to be gained. Think about having all of those geniuses, living longer, helping the world (well, at least in intention).

      "In the end, the lord shalth return in full regulation Soviet Uniform, hailing Lenin as thy true messiah." -Siberian Revealations

    3. #3
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      As much as such a thought is kind of scary in a sense, Stalin's right, it seems to have more pros to it than cons.

      But wait, if you got cloned at a young age, then got older, wouldn't your clone get older too -- and the heart of your clone get just as weak?

      I think I heard that the problem with the Dolly sheep clone was that it started to age too fast. Whaddaya make of that?

      I guess I could stand to be cloned. I've always wanted a twin-ish sibling...
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    4. #4
      Old Seahag Alex D's Avatar
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      Ah, my biology teacher was talking about what Ramu said today, apparently, the theory is that because the DNA was from an aged animal, it meant that the new thing aged in a ratio depending on the age that the animal that it was clonned from was. Or somthing.

      Anyway, if thats true, than making youreself new organs would be pointless, because they would quickly wither and die.

    5. #5
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      That's where stem cells come in though. They are "blank" cells that can be "programmed" to turn into whatever type of cell is needed. (ie. skin, liver, brain, lung, etc.)
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    6. #6
      Member Joseph_Stalin's Avatar
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      And they are very common in embryos, in case any one was wonder where the whole abortion thing comes in. The political argument comes in, where we have people trying to have babies just to sell them. But back to the scientific area of discussion.

      When I said about creating new organs, I meant that replacements are created at a younger age. After the extra heart is developed, it could then be sealed into a cyrogenic state (in this scenario, cyrogenics has been perfected), and released in an emergency. After all, you can't really wait for the cells to develop in this kind of situation.

      "In the end, the lord shalth return in full regulation Soviet Uniform, hailing Lenin as thy true messiah." -Siberian Revealations

    7. #7
      Member Kaniaz's Avatar
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      I fully support the research - I want a nice new heart when this one goes kaput, thanks - but I'd rather we didn't clone whole humans..I mean, things would get complicated. People could be impersonated, people like Hitler could have some hitler-backups in reserve, armies of people could potentially be created, etc. A bit star-warsish, but I expect it's just round the corner.

    8. #8
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      Originally posted by Kaniaz
      but I'd rather we didn't clone whole humans..I mean, things would get complicated. People could be impersonated, people like Hitler could have some hitler-backups in reserve, armies of people could potentially be created, etc. A bit star-warsish, but I expect it's just round the corner.
      I believe in stem-cell research as well. As far as cloning.. I hadn't thought about the whole *backup* thing (Lord knows there are certain people who shouldn't have lived one lifetime let alone be able to live forever).

      Good point Kaniaz..

    9. #9
      CT
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      I dont see cloning of people as such a problem, its just another body and it needs to grow, and the upbringing and experiences are what makes a personality, though genes might have an influence on it, it is mainly that. So for all we know a clone of Hitler will grow up to be a really nice person. I think accelerated growth and mind transfers are more science-fiction then the cloning itself. Cloning of body parts will have huge medical benefits, obviously.
      The only scary possibilities of more knowledge of human genes are discrimination based on genes, insurance companies rejecting you, etc. Though maybe, that is where the future lies. Evolution by our own selection, not nature since human evolution now risks degradation now that so many specimen survive and reproduce and bad genes spread.

    10. #10
      Member Yume's Avatar
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      As long as people don't use stem-cells from unborn babies I am ok with it. It is just wrong to horribly deny something its existance and then take its body for someone else. On the issue of cloning I don't like it. The process for organization is tricky and we don't need overpopulation even if it is cloning an "intelligent mind"
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    11. #11
      Member Gwendolyn's Avatar
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      I think that stem cell research is a great thing to support. There are so many things to be gained. I think that our government is doing every member of American society a disservice by banning this sort of research. Other countries will become more advanced, and this could be potentially dangerous for the U.S. Anyway, you just can't put a hold on science, especially in such a potentially helpfull area. As far as cloning goes...Cool. Sure, we'd have to work a few bugs out, but in the end being able to clone humans would do more good than harm.

      I know this is a little off subject, but this topic reminds me of a book I read recently by Robert Heinlan called "Time Enough for Love". In it, the main character (who is the oldest person alive in the book) gets cloned, but his clones are female, and he adopts them as his daughters. It's an entertaining piece of work to say the least. I liked it.
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    12. #12
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      If only Humans new when to say when.
      The stem cell research and it's benifits are obvious for our own race. However you can argue that the worlds population and it's resourses are diminishing now. Add a much lenghthier life span to the already overpopulated most of the world and obolish many of the diseases that claims so many lives each year and to me it will be inevitable that these things will only generate other problems.
      Nature balances out things for a reason.

      In wealthy Societies this could aslo create a gender gap. If let go far enoough, as it most likely will at some point, there could be John Q's neighbor who has the money to give his son the genes to be genetically enhanced to play football like John Q's dad did, but better. Oh. & add blue eyes to my baby too.
      The neighbor on the other hand who cannot afford any gene manipulation will I dare say be disenfranchised?
      I little greater of a gap than not having the same shoes.

      So if God doesn't want us to do these things, why do we have the means to do them?

      But ya, I'm up for a new liver too Bradybaker count me in.

    13. #13
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Sure, in the short run, problems such as discrimination by genetic makeup (ie. Gattaca) could arise. But in the long run, would our species not be much better off? Smarter, stronger, more resistant to disease, etc. Sounds like a good future to me.
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    14. #14
      CT
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      That was what I was getting at in the last sentances of my post. Ethically its a tricky subject, but sacrifices must be made for achieving such improvements.

      Oh and Howezter: Nature does nothing for 'a reason', it is simple cause and effect.

    15. #15
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>
      Sure, in the short run, problems such as discrimination by genetic makeup (ie. Gattaca) could arise. But in the long run, would our species not be much better off? Smarter, stronger, more resistant to disease, etc. Sounds like a good future to me.[/b]
      If you want to live in an over populated world. I agree that out race would improve. Smarter, stonger. I just can't find an answer for over population and the many causes it provides.


      <!--QuoteBegin-CT

      Oh and Howezter: Nature does nothing for 'a reason', it is simple cause and effect.
      That is rather remarkable then how perfectly intuned an proficient nature is.

    16. #16
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Howetzer
      If you want to live in an over populated world. I agree that out race would improve. Smarter, stonger. I just can't find an answer for over population and the many causes it provides.
      I'll guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

      One answer would be to penalize anyone who has more than a certain number of children and offer rewards to people who have few or no children.
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    17. #17
      CT
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      Originally posted by Howetzer

      That is rather remarkable then how perfectly intuned an proficiant nature is.
      well, to me its the simple fact of quite a few years of evolution and all that. Maybe you're religious and dont believe in it, but its really quite straightforward.

    18. #18
      Member Yume's Avatar
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      Over population is why I am pro-suicide. If someone wants to die I will let them go off and take themselves out. It's a bigger benefit to the world to have people who don't have doubts about living.
      Cared for by: Clairity

      So many variables, so little knowledge.


    19. #19
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      Originally posted by Yume
      Over population is why I am pro-suicide. If someone wants to die I will let them go off and take themselves out. It's a bigger benefit to the world to have people who don't have doubts about living.
      :bravo:

      What a refreshing sentiment...I concur fully.
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    20. #20
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      Originally posted by bradybaker
      One answer would be to penalize anyone who has more than a certain number of children and offer rewards to people who have few or no children.
      I believe China has already tried that. They've had a few *erm* problems with the policy.

      As far as cloning: I'm all about organ cloning, but we developed sexual reproduction for a reason. That's how you're supposed to make more humans. It mixes up the gene pool and facilitates adaptation and evolution. (Not to mention the fact that it's far more pleasant than having blood drawn.) I honestly can't think of a convincing reason why there should be human cloning. The first group to do it will not be in it for "the advancement of science" but rather to add to their laurels the distinction of bringing a prevalent aspect of science fiction into reality.

      And here's a brief article about how cloning affects the aging process.
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    21. #21
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by bradybaker+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bradybaker)</div>
      <!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer
      If you want to live in an over populated world. I agree that out race would improve. Smarter, stonger. I just can't find an answer for over population and the many problems it causes.
      I'll guess we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.
      One answer would be to penalize anyone who has more than a certain number of children and offer rewards to people who have few or no children.[/b]
      I agree. But if you are like me that stragegy does not seem to go over very well. When ever I brought it up.
      They go directly to youth in asia.
      If you look at educated societies their birth rate falls while the third world countries and uneducated parts of more intellegant communities, birth rates double and sometimes triple.


      So maybe as a result of this more stronger, smarter, intellegant society the problem of over poulation would take care of itself

    22. #22
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by CT+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(CT)</div>
      <!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer

      That is rather remarkable then how perfectly intuned an proficiant nature is.
      well, to me its the simple fact of quite a few years of evolution and all that. Maybe you're religious and dont believe in it, but its really quite straightforward.[/b]
      I am not relgious by standard.
      But to say nature does not do anything for a reason is utterly absurd. We have quite a few years of evolving under our belt as well, Do we do things for no reason?

      What are labled as natural disasters are the earths methods of doing things for a reason.

      A simple thunderstorm is natures way of maintaining stabiltiy in our atmosphere. The air above us is stable or balanced when heavier, cooler air is near the surface & lighter. When warmer air arises above, instability accurrs, thus causing thunderstorms or tornadoes. Turning the atmoshere right side up.


      A hurricane on a larger scale transfers much of the tropical air from the southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere of the earth,again causing stability. And with that, much like wild fires they in the process cull a lot of the dead wood forests and practices survival of the fittess among species.

      I could go on about lightning, Volcanoes etc. but I think it is pointless.

    23. #23
      Member bradybaker's Avatar
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      Originally posted by Howetzer+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Howetzer)</div>
      But to say nature does not do anything for a reason is utterly absurd. We have quite a few years of evolving under our belt as well, Do we do things for no reason?[/b]
      Define 'reason'.

      <!--QuoteBegin-Howetzer

      What are labled as natural disasters are the earths methods of doing things for a reason.

      A simple thunderstorm is natures way of maintaining stabiltiy in our atmosphere. The air above us is stable or balanced when heavier, cooler air is near the surface & lighter. When warmer air arises above, instability accurrs, thus causing thunderstorms or tornadoes. Turning the atmoshere right side up.

      A hurricane on a larger scale transfers much of the tropical air from the southern hemisphere to the northern hemisphere of the earth,again causing stability. And with that, much like wild fires they in the process cull a lot of the dead wood forests and practices survival of the fittess among species.
      A simple thunderstorm is not an action that nature takes to regain stability, it is a result of the instability. Similarily, hurricanes do not 'cause stability', they result from instability.
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    24. #24
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      Originally posted by Howetzer
      If you look at educated societies their birth rate falls while the third world countries and uneducated parts of more intellegant communities, birht rates double and sometimes triple.[/color]

      So maybe as a result of this more stronger, smarter, intellegant society the problem of over poulation would take care of itself
      The higher birth rates of "under-developed" nations are the result of economics, not a lack of intelligence or education. In those countries, a child is an economic asset, not a liability as it is in most of the industrialized world. When a child reaches its fifth birthday in Vietnam or Bangladesh or any number of other countries, s/he can go work in the neighborhood Nike factory and thus contribute to the family's income. In more agrarian-based economies, a child is a farm-hand. This is in direct contrast to the economic liability which children represent in European and North American societies (among a few others). Here, a child must be raised and sent to school before s/he ever earns a cent, and even then, the child's income is usually his or her own and does not contribute to the family's.

      It's far too easy to blame such things as high birth rates on poor people being "stupid and irresponsible." It is true that access to contraceptives and sexual education can lower birth rates, but only in areas where the economic situation is conducive to such a reduction in the child labor market.
      “Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities.”
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    25. #25
      Rotaredom Howie's Avatar
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      Originally posted by perigrinus
      It's far too easy to blame such things as high birth rates on poor people being \"stupid and irresponsible.\" It is true that access to contraceptives and sexual education can lower birth rates, but only in areas where the economic situation is conducive to such a reduction in the child labor market.
      I don't think I ever said Stupid or irresponsible. Uneducated yes
      Doesn't Africa have the largest birth rate and the largest death rate? Granted it is I think the largest Continent unless Antartica is but that does not matter.
      You don't think in the areas in our own country the poorest communties have more children?

      It is a natural progression as you become more educated for you and a husband or spouse to look ahead to be more finaicial sound. To say, We can't afford to have three more babies and send them all to college. And have a retirement fund and and and.
      Other countries even try to teach birth control to third world countries and it doesn't float.
      Most of those counties don't have enough economic commerce for that to even come into play.


      Originally posted by bradybaker
      Define reason!

      A simple thunderstorm is not an action that nature takes to regain stability, it is a result of the instability. Similarily, hurricanes do not 'cause stability', they result from instability.
      It is a cycle. A life cylce just as we have our own. But we look at reason as it has to be from a human point of view, labled as a motive, decision or something we control
      If the entire concept of reason is looked at from a human stand point, then what you and CT say, cause and effect come into play. But reason as an underlying cause for something to accur can be entirley differant.
      You don't think the whole Universe has a cycle? And the earth doesn't have a life cycle?
      A life cycle. Structured like ours, no. But if it does have a life cycle then it would stand to reason (from a human aspect) that so too would the earth have, reason.
      I am not trying to compare it directly to a human life but if you can take evolution and a life cycle into play then they are comparable.
      So the reason behind the earths actions are defined by the completion of this cycle.

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