Is OBE a form of Lucid Dreaming or not?

You'll almost never hear a scientist use the words "astral projection". One reason is that most scientists obviously don't believe in it, and another big reason is that if they did use the words in lectures and papers they would be ridiculed throughout the scientific community because the words have a connection with the mystical. If we used that scientific reasoning on something like a tomato a scientist would say STREF (savory, typically red, edible fruit). Astral projection versus the scientific OBE, both are used to describe the same phenomena by two different groups of people. Also just to note that "astral" from astral projection pertains to the astral body and not the "astral plane", again just another way of denoting a separation from the physical body just like an OBE.

Scientist have noted that the chances of an OBE occurring is just before or after REM. Dreaming and a Lucid Dreaming take place during REM. It is highly possible for an individual to go from one state to another. Flying dreams however cannot be classified as an OBE, without the feeling of being separated from ones own body.

I do believe in OBE's being separate from LD, its just that to achieve an OBE there has to be a certain state of consciousness and I do not believe it is something that can easily be pulled off.

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Originally Posted by linz2d

Astral projection versus the scientific OBE, both are used to describe the same phenomena by two different groups of people.

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Not really. OBE is a term for any subjective experience of viewing one's self or other surroundings from a viewpoint outside the body. The idea of astral projection specifies that a person is transferring (for lack of a better term) their conciousness to their astral body and using it to traverse the astral plane, an idea which is clearly much more specific. OBE is a category of experiences of which AP is one type.

When I was exploring OOB, I would observe detail while in the state. When I woke myself up, I would check the details--they were always different. In OOB a door would be open, but in reality shut, etc. I concluded that there was no real attempt to fool one that one was actually out of their body--.i.e. if one wanted to ignore detail, they could BS themselves into mysticism. It was just not another form of Lucid Dreaming, but of the same stuff, which I believe is a form of communication, some of which I detail in Language and Experience on the archive.

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

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Then don't, but...

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Some of us have legitimate reasons for believing what we do, but this is one of those things that CAN'T really be proven. You either experience it and understand, or don't. And disbelief in and of itself is a huge detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness.

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...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry :(
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice :P

In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Our own experience is our evidence.

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I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence :roll:

edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.

Philosopher8659, interesting I have also heard of similar experiences but if I had been in your situation I would probably looked for a date and time. Even then I would probably still continue to OBE just for the heck of it. :D

I understand very well that there are differences in detail when you have an OBE and you find yourself in a representation of your "room" or another locale. Like a radio frequency, it's as if you just barely turned the knob the tiniest inch, and while can still hear the "main" station for the most part, you begin to pick up ever so slight signals from another one as well... and they are mixed.

This idea has been represented in video games, music, movies, etc... for years and years. A VERY classic example is in Zelda: A Link To the Past for the SNES. Think about the nuances between the Light World and the Dark World... (go ahead and pull them up and compare them side by side.), how they are virtually the same and yet, in some ways they are not at all. I guarantee you these game designers weren't just pulling these ideas out of their asses. They were basing them off of real concepts... experiences they've had similar to the one's we've had.

Anyone who has played Zelda, A Link the the Past knows that sometimes things you do in one realm will affect the other. Yes, it's just a game... but the idea is the important part. People use games and stories to express these ideas so they won't sound crazy. I see it everywhere in the media, in video games, music, etc...

So while, yes, an OBE might have significant differences than the waking world, it doesn't mean that you aren't, in a sense, still interacting with the waking world... you're just sort of "tuned in" slightly off of the waking world's main frequency. At least that's how I look at it, and have experienced it for my self.

APing and Lucid Dreaming seem like deeper or different frequencies all together. It's like taking the knob and cranking it clockwise 6 times... and you're somewhere entirely different. Sometimes you'll start off in the OBE state and slip into a dream. All this means to me is that the "knob" can still turn and change your frequency while you're in an OBE... which is why I often times slip into a lucid dream. It seems more experienced practitioners of the dreaming arts have more control over what frequency they want to explore in than a learning noob like my self does... but I'm making daily progress.

-K

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can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

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You mean YOU aren't finding it useful any more? You're more than welcome to go away. Some of us are still benefiting greatly from it.

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Originally Posted by linz2d

Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.

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Again, you are trying to blur the lines between a mental OOBE and a physical "separation of consciousness from the physical body."

When you are implying that the "spirit is projected from the body," you are implying an actual separation of your focal point to a point outside the body. Whether you are talking about traversing to the astral plane, or just sitting there and hovering around your own body, makes no difference. If one is dreaming that they are looking down at their body, this does not mean their "spirit" has been "projected" outside of their body. It means their mind is creating the illusion of being outside their body. (And I'm speaking in absolutes, only because I am going by the scientific consensus.) To imply that envisioning yourself outside of your body means that your spirit/consciousness/essence has actually separated from your body (meaning that what you see, in this state, is the actual, physical realm, and not a dream) is, in itself, mystical.

You cannot speak of a spirit as not mystical, and a spirit realm as mystical, without making some sort of comprehensive distinction between the two. If you are implying that your "spirit" is being projected to any place other than your own head, during an "astral projection" you are employing mysticism.

Things that have a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life is considered mystical.
Astral projection is an OBE, but an OBE is not always astral projection.
An astral projection has a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life, therefore it's mystical.
So, an OBE is not always mystical, right? It could also be a dream or just a mental 'feeling' that you aren't in your body anymore.

I have been a skeptic of astral projection, but as someone said before, experience is evidence, so no harm in trying it.

OBEs, LDs, and APs, in my opinion, are all quite different.

The best videos on the subject are right here:

part 1: YouTube - How to induce an Out Of Body Experience - part 1 - Sleep Paralysis
part 2: YouTube - How to Induce an Out-Of-Body Experience - Part 2 - Separation

These were made by one of the most knowledgeable people in the world on the subject of OBEs. He goes into a few differences between AP and OBEs in these videos, and a great technique on how to induce them if you happen to be interested.

OBEs are quite real, but not of any religious or spiritual meanings.

Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrote

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their consciousness to their astral body and using it to traverse the astral plane

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the issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.

As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.

The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.

You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.

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Originally Posted by linz2d

Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrote the issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.

As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.

The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.

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I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body. Anything I have ever read makes a clear distinction between (in stricter terms) actually moving your consciousness to another point, or just imagining doing so. You can say they are "just words" but these words, as far as conventional, established languages are concerned, do have distinct meanings (as all of these definitions will tell you).

If you have something that states that astral projection does not imply consciously leaving the body (meaning that you are, consciously, able to perceive life - as it is - from outside of your physical self), then please post it.

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Originally Posted by linz2D

You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.

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The fact that science has yet to explain something does not mean one should place one's faith in the explanation being of a nature that is against all scientific consensus. One should consider it, sure. But one should not settle on the cop out of "well it's this, and even though science doesn't support it, I know it's right;" not, at least, without extremely consistent results. That is creating an outlandish belief out of fancy, instead of actual observation/experimentation/objectivity. We know what creates lightning, in the 'physical world.' But what makes those variables possible? Is there a consciousness that dictates the physiology of the universe? Who knows? But if you are going to put faith in such stories as Zeus and the Gods (which are stories that came about because of things "science couldn't yet explain"), then you owe it to yourself to thoroughly investigate your belief. I'm not explicitly relating astral projection to stories of Zeus, but it is the faith-based ideology of some people, that is the same.

That's all a bit off topic though, isn't it?

But, please, direct me to where I can read more about this 'other' interpretation of astral projection. I'm honestly curious.

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I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body

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Oneironaut, you are reading to much into my words and interpreting things in the wrong way. Maybe you took the view that I am speaking from a spiritual perspective. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, so forgive me and lets try this again, as human beings we all try and explain phenomena, for example... why the hell am I floating outside my own body?

Person A with a mystical point of view will interpret the phenomena as the spirit and consciousness leaving the body, and he calls it astral projection.
Person B with a scientific point of view, interprets the out of body experience as a Lucid Dream, and says its and OBE conjured up by a dream.

Person A calls it astral projection, Person B calls it an OBE. So we now have two terms to describe one experience that both A and B had. Now, like I had written earlier, "At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words" thats because they both describe the same experience. And if your are like me who doesn't take the views of the far left or right, what you label the experience as does not really matter, until you experience it.

The original question was, is an OBE different from a LD? My point of view it that they are and they happen at a different level of consciousness just like Ketsuyume wrote when he used his analogy of tuning in to the correct station. And the fact that science, yes science has shown that the time to experience an OBE is on the fringe on REM, and a LD happens during REM further backs up the claim.

And finally about my little ramble of science this and science that, I do know that science will probably answer most things in life but I have a gut feeling that not all will be answered.

Through asserting that you want no mystical stuff in this thread, you've already answered your question. And if we are not to comment on the supposed 'mystical stuff', then it's merely semantics we're arguing here.

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Originally Posted by MrTransitory

Through asserting that you want no mystical stuff in this thread, you've already answered your question. And if we are not to comment on the supposed 'mystical stuff', then it's merely semantics we're arguing here.

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I was unsure of my answer, and I love me some semantic arguments :P

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Originally Posted by vmenge

I was unsure of my answer, and I love me some semantic arguments :P

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The problem is that we're dealing with a wholly subjective experience, so there can be no objectivity. That is to say, these experiences (WILD, levels of Lucidity, OBE, AP etc) vary widely between people. So classification will naturally vary.

And effectively, it comes down to whether you tend to classify experiences by their differences - If you do, then you will obviously favour multiple classification of what, in my opinion, is the same phenomenon. Conversely, if you search for similarities between experiences, then you're likely to classify them as one and the same. Classification to that end, then, is merely a type of outlook on phenomena.

Can I ask, when you WILD, do you 'wake up in your bed' then get up and leave your body or do you go into a fully-fledged dream world? I ask this because people differ in this respect.

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Originally Posted by linz2d

The original question was, is an OBE different from a LD? My point of view it that they are and they happen at a different level of consciousness just like Ketsuyume wrote when he used his analogy of tuning in to the correct station. And the fact that science, yes science has shown that the time to experience an OBE is on the fringe on REM, and a LD happens during REM further backs up the claim.

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And this is what I mean. To some people, there is a differentiation between OBE and LDs because they feel disparate altered states of consciousness. That is, they feel a difference. Conversely, some people may not feel this difference, and instead focus on the similarities between the two states, and conclude that OBEs and LDs are largely the same.

The magnitude of this difference/similarity is also largely contingent on whether you favour the scientific explanation or the mystical one.

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Originally Posted by linz2d

Person A with a mystical point of view will interpret the phenomena as the spirit and consciousness leaving the body, and he calls it astral projection.
Person B with a scientific point of view, interprets the out of body experience as a Lucid Dream, and says its and OBE conjured up by a dream.

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I'm guessing that my confusion comes from the fact that I have always understood there to be a very distinct difference between Astral Projection and a "base-level" OOBE. I mean, you can say "they are just words", but I can also call a lucid dream a bottle of Gin, but we all know that there is a difference.

And yes, even if the bit about OOBE's happening at a different stage than an LD is true (It is also said that people "don't visualize/dream during non-REM sleep, which isn't true), that gives no one reason to believe that an OOBE is a physics-defying phenomenon (like Astral Projection). I'm all for the open-minded concept of a subjective interpretation, but I have always known Astral Projection to mean a physical separation of conscious from body. So, when I see a newbie come into the world of dreaming, I do not like to see them confused by faith-based assumptions. If they want to go the way of AP, that's fine, but they need to at least be informed about what that entails. People should not be interchanging AP with dreaming, because the two concepts are different (as far as established science). A dream can be an OOBE, but to just "interpret" it as an Astral Projection is a much more serious claim about the nature of the universe, itself, and should be backed up by consistent facts - not a subjective 'feeling' that that's what's going on.

Just my opinion, though.

Just to put my two cents into this discussion, since the matter of OBE's are subjective and not concrete in physical evidence, I believe conversing the matter would in fact, and is, leading to interesting discussions; however, there could never be a "right" or a "wrong". The best example of this would be the skeptical reactions of individuals when I try to persuade them with all my might that lucid dreaming is real. Since LDing is partly-subjective and they haven't personally experienced the phenomena, the very concept of lucid dreaming goes against their core logic and reasoning. Taken up a level, the very same could be true with Lucid Dreaming and like extensions of it like OBEs. Since not everyone has experienced the phenomena and it goes against core reasoning, it is basic humanistic emotion to be skeptical. However, it may be a matter of experiencing it, if it's real, that could very well change the tide of that individual's opinion.

It would seem that until certain technological advancements are made that could undermine OBE's subjective nature, neither arguments of the spectrum can prove/disprove the other side. I will say though, reading this thread and it's intellectual arguments have been rather refreshing

Well said, Marlowe, and I agree. We might have our notions about a thing - however well-founded - but this is all just a very speculative argument. Like I said, I personally don't condemn anyone for their beliefs on such topics. I may not agree with their conclusions, and voice my opinion, but I understand that even mine is an unconfirmed assessment. I think it's very important to be able to talk to people with different opinions than your own, and respectfully disagree.

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Originally Posted by MrTransitory

Can I ask, when you WILD, do you 'wake up in your bed' then get up and leave your body or do you go into a fully-fledged dream world? I ask this because people differ in this respect.

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I'll tell you as soon as I'm able to WILD :(

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Originally Posted by vmenge

I'll tell you as soon as I'm able to WILD :(

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Ah, well good luck. It'll be quite the experience the first time.

To thine own self be true.

If some people can AP (mystical) as frequently as the scientific lot have OBEs, then if they're not dishonest to themselves they should be able to prove if they're literally removed from their physical body. Unfortunately, I think those that tend to believe in AP are those who, at the onset, are not critical, sceptical thinkers, and are convinced that it's a real phenomenon on emotional grounds rather than rational grounds.

If I were to suddenly AP, literally, then I would look to disprove its reality. If I could not, and had evidence supporting its reality then I would be forced to accept it. How I would convince another, however, I have no idea. But I'd certainly not be dismissive and defensively hostile when questioned.


Edit. - I could easily convince another by having them observe me during sleep whilst I tell them what's in the next room. Easy.

im sorry but the op is too mystical for my liking ;)

this is a topic that for me is one of the most important questions there is related to dreaming and perhaps everything. all i can say from my experience is that whenever i have got close to what i would call an obe, i have been projecting into a place that closely resembles my physical surroundings but not close enough to actually be the physical world. however many people do calim to be able to project into their physical surroundings or what they call the rtz (real time zone). i dont know if this could be explained simply by their minds creating a very exact replica of the physical or whether they are actually doing it, but i tend to think that with enough practice, you can do anything in dreams. the subconscious is powerful enough for me to be essentially all knowing, and perhaps even if the place you go to is just produced by the subconscious, then it could well be powerful enough to actually recreate it as it actually is in the physical world. hope at least some of that makes sense

so the big question for me is how to get from a lucid to a full blown obe. i have had some success in trying to find my body in lucid dreams, but i have never been able to see my local area in a dream as it actually is in reality. tere are always subtle differences whenever i am dreaming at home

if physical obes are real then for now i would have to put them down as the most stable lucid dream possible. im sure its possible to bring that lucid awareness to waking life

is the subconscious powerful enought that it knows enough about the physical world to recreate it all accurately in a dream state?

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Originally Posted by vmenge

Then don't, but...



...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry :(
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice :P

In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.



I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence :roll:

edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

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i dont really see your problem with ket here. i mean its not like you can prove your dreams to anyone is it? yet...