Thread: Is OBE a form of Lucid Dreaming or not?

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

If you say at least one, then you should tell us what book you read and why you disagree with the author.

I've read several. I've also dedicated daily time and effort to exploring the phenomena. My experiences not only match many in the books I've read, they've also matched others' experiences on this board.

Some of us have legitimate reasons for believing what we do, but this is one of those things that CAN'T really be proven. You either experience it and understand, or don't. And disbelief in and of itself is a huge detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness.

In the end, though, we can't be deterred from our course. We simply wish others would take some actual time and effort to exploring the phenomena themselves for their own sake. Ultimately, those of us that are having legitimate OBE's (and beyond) don't really care what others think. Our own experience is our evidence.

-K

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

First off, that's like saying "If you don't believe in God, and you haven't read the Bible, I can't take you seriously."

I haven't read any actual books on the phenomenon (unless you want to count The Holographic Universe, which touches on the subject), but I've read plenty of texts. (Information doesn't just come from books. I'm sure you know this.) I also do not disbelieve in the possibility of many psychic phenomena. I simply have not been convinced. There is a difference. I've read a lot of Radin's work on PSI, and have been surprised on many of the findings. I've read a lot on the military's remote viewing practices, and have been interested in many of the findings. I've read a lot of David Bohm's work on the Implicate/Explicate Order of the universe and Holomovement - which, so far, I've found to be the most concise, scientific theory on the possibility of PSI. I've had questionable experiences with the phenomenon, myself, but have had nothing that solidly convinces me that the phenomenon is, unequivocally, real.

And I have heard (and read) plenty of stories about people's experiences - some believable, some less than so. In that same vein, I can't take seriously anyone that says such a phenomenon 'can't be proven', because that is a slap in the face to science (which is also detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness), itself. Such a phenomenon can be proven, if it is real. The problem is that most people who want the phenomenon to be real are less likely to account for the times when their experiences are inconsistent with - and/or contradictory to - their biases. That is why, in something such as this, I take personal accounts with a grain of salt. There are people who believe that every dream is a trip to the Astral Plane. Their 'experiences' are their own evidence for it. As a very adept dreamer, myself, I find it hard to believe that I'm traveling to some undiscovered dimension in the multiverse, and having a battle to the death against The Shredder, along with the other Ninja Turtles. It takes a little more than an experience of something, to cause me to accept any given concept as reality.

Lastly, I would say your last two sentences sum it up quite nicely:

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Ultimately, those of us that are having legitimate OBE's (and beyond) don't really care what others think. Our own experience is our evidence.

I don't really care what others think about my position on the matter, either. I have had my own "unexplained" experiences. I have spent much of my time researching the metaphysical (most of which was done to counter hard-boiled skeptics), and I have drawn my own conclusions. The over-arching conclusion that I have come to, at this point, is that - while I don't believe it isn't possible - I have yet to have confirmation. And, unlike so many who recount their "legitimate" OBE's, I don't take every 'mystical' experience as confirmation.

Also, I don't mean to discredit science. Without science we'd be cave men still. Our evolution has come a long way because we're becoming awesome at using our brains to unravel everything and figure out how it works.

But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.

--K

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

If an atheist wanted to intellectually engage a believer on the topic of Christianity, it WOULD be hard to take them seriously unless they've done some sort of research... it wouldn't have to be the Bible, or... fair enough... any books for that matter, but I would expect anyone who wants to say, "this idea us bullshit." wold have reasons to support their claim aside from saying, "well, because it's bullshit."

Agreed. I was just highlighting that their knowledge of God and/or Christianity could be a pretty fair understanding of the concepts, without having read the Bible, itself. But, yes, I also get upset with people who discredit things without, at least, putting some thought/research into it.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Aside from that, I think you've made a fair assessment.

Well, thank you.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

But I do believe some things just can't be proven... or rather, scientifically proven... because they are in their very nature, nothing more than experiences.

I agree with this, to some extent. However, I think many people make the mistake of confusing subjective and objective experience. I believe in OBEs. I've had plenty of them, as I'm sure most of us on this board have. The folly comes when people interchange OBE and Astral Projection. It is why threads like this pop up. OoBE's are, at their core, subjective. You cannot tell someone that they have not had an OBE, because they were the ones who experienced it. However, a claim that someone Astrally Projects is another thing, entirely. That means they are claiming that their consciousness physically left their body, and was able to perceive an actual, absolute plane.

One is a subjective claim. The other doesn't just flirt with objectivity. It assumes it.

So, when people get confused about OBE/AP/LDing, it is largely because of people making the claims that their OBEs are actually APs. Such claims do require proof, if they are to be taken seriously, and (as many of us, who experiment with altered states of consciousness could attest to) experiences, much like appearances, can be misleading.

I believe that, if AP is real, it can be proven. One of the caveats to AP is that people are said to be able to perceive the physical realm, outside of space and time. This is a quantifiable property, if it is true. The right scientific approach could definitely prove it. What is missing is a sound methodology and, perhaps at this time, the tools.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

I have to ask people like Vmenge and Oneironaut how many books they've read on OBE/Astral Projection before drawing the conclusions they have.

If you say 0, I can't take you seriously.

Then don't, but...

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Some of us have legitimate reasons for believing what we do, but this is one of those things that CAN'T really be proven. You either experience it and understand, or don't. And disbelief in and of itself is a huge detriment to the exploration of altered states of consciousness.

...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice

In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.

Originally Posted by Ketsuyume

Our own experience is our evidence.

I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence

edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.

Philosopher8659, interesting I have also heard of similar experiences but if I had been in your situation I would probably looked for a date and time. Even then I would probably still continue to OBE just for the heck of it.

Originally Posted by linz2d

Supernova No that's another misconception that I have noticed on Dreamviews, when one does astral projection(to project ones spirit) that does not mean they can just traverse the astral plane, the astral plane is not considered part of the physical world. If you experience an OBE/AP and see yourself sitting or lying in your room then you are not in the astral plane but that does not mean that you are not projecting your spirit outwards. If one has enough experience with OBE/AP then they are said to be able to visit the astral plane. In other words the astral plane is the spirit plane or spirit world. And thats when we really go into the mystical stuff.

Again, you are trying to blur the lines between a mental OOBE and a physical "separation of consciousness from the physical body."

When you are implying that the "spirit is projected from the body," you are implying an actual separation of your focal point to a point outside the body. Whether you are talking about traversing to the astral plane, or just sitting there and hovering around your own body, makes no difference. If one is dreaming that they are looking down at their body, this does not mean their "spirit" has been "projected" outside of their body. It means their mind is creating the illusion of being outside their body. (And I'm speaking in absolutes, only because I am going by the scientific consensus.) To imply that envisioning yourself outside of your body means that your spirit/consciousness/essence has actually separated from your body (meaning that what you see, in this state, is the actual, physical realm, and not a dream) is, in itself, mystical.

You cannot speak of a spirit as not mystical, and a spirit realm as mystical, without making some sort of comprehensive distinction between the two. If you are implying that your "spirit" is being projected to any place other than your own head, during an "astral projection" you are employing mysticism.

Things that have a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life is considered mystical.
Astral projection is an OBE, but an OBE is not always astral projection.
An astral projection has a connection to spirituality and is also unseen or not perceived in real life, therefore it's mystical.
So, an OBE is not always mystical, right? It could also be a dream or just a mental 'feeling' that you aren't in your body anymore.

I have been a skeptic of astral projection, but as someone said before, experience is evidence, so no harm in trying it.

Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrote

their consciousness to their astral body and using it to traverse the astral plane

the issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.

As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.

The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.

You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.

Originally Posted by linz2d

Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrote the issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.

As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.

The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.

I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body. Anything I have ever read makes a clear distinction between (in stricter terms) actually moving your consciousness to another point, or just imagining doing so. You can say they are "just words" but these words, as far as conventional, established languages are concerned, do have distinct meanings (as all of these definitions will tell you).

If you have something that states that astral projection does not imply consciously leaving the body (meaning that you are, consciously, able to perceive life - as it is - from outside of your physical self), then please post it.

Originally Posted by linz2D

You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.

The fact that science has yet to explain something does not mean one should place one's faith in the explanation being of a nature that is against all scientific consensus. One should consider it, sure. But one should not settle on the cop out of "well it's this, and even though science doesn't support it, I know it's right;" not, at least, without extremely consistent results. That is creating an outlandish belief out of fancy, instead of actual observation/experimentation/objectivity. We know what creates lightning, in the 'physical world.' But what makes those variables possible? Is there a consciousness that dictates the physiology of the universe? Who knows? But if you are going to put faith in such stories as Zeus and the Gods (which are stories that came about because of things "science couldn't yet explain"), then you owe it to yourself to thoroughly investigate your belief. I'm not explicitly relating astral projection to stories of Zeus, but it is the faith-based ideology of some people, that is the same.

That's all a bit off topic though, isn't it?

But, please, direct me to where I can read more about this 'other' interpretation of astral projection. I'm honestly curious.

Originally Posted by vmenge

Then don't, but...



...this makes me not take you or OBEs seriously too, sorry
Not to be offensive or anything but really? I haven't read any books, but I've read some stuff online... still, here's my dilemma: On one hand I have a plausible explanation which can be proven, and on the other hand I have a mystical explanation which cannot be proven.
It's not hard to make a choice

In all seriousness, I didn't make this topic to debate the merits of OBE, I just wanted to find out why I've read some people saying that some methods that people use to obtain OBEs wouldn't work for LDs when from what I had read they where essentially the same thing.



I'm sorry, but this argument really doesn't work. At all.
See, I believe in the pasta god, he comes to me every single day and gives me magically created plates of delightful italian pastries. EVERY. NIGHT. I just can't prove it, but see, it's true! What I experienced is my evidence

edit:
eeh... can a mod close this thread? It's already lived past it's usefulness.

i dont really see your problem with ket here. i mean its not like you can prove your dreams to anyone is it? yet...