Thread: Is OBE a form of Lucid Dreaming or not?

Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrote

their consciousness to their astral body and using it to traverse the astral plane

the issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.

As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.

The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.

You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.

Originally Posted by linz2d

Oneironaut, that was a reply to Supernova with regards of the use of the word Astral Projection, he wrote the issue I had is that spiritualist would not confine the use of the phrase astral projection to just the "astral plane", they would also use the phrase to describe the feeling of being outside their own body in the physical world.

As I have said before AP and OBE are just names given to a certain phenomena by two different groups(both groups have different beliefs) but the phenomena is the same. I then went on to say that the term astral projection can be interpreted as "projecting ones spirit" because individuals who use the term believe that's what happens, this however is not believed by the scientific community, because there is no proof.

The phenomena in AP and OBE is the same, a feeling of separation from ones physical body and a floating sensation. So depending on which camp your are in you can use the term which suits you. Whether you believe that you are separated from the physical body or not. At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words.

I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body. Anything I have ever read makes a clear distinction between (in stricter terms) actually moving your consciousness to another point, or just imagining doing so. You can say they are "just words" but these words, as far as conventional, established languages are concerned, do have distinct meanings (as all of these definitions will tell you).

If you have something that states that astral projection does not imply consciously leaving the body (meaning that you are, consciously, able to perceive life - as it is - from outside of your physical self), then please post it.

Originally Posted by linz2D

You can say science this and science that, yet science itsself cant explain consciousness or the mechanisms behind it. It knows that there are connection and circuitry in the brain but it doesn't know how consciousness is formed. There are theories but no proof. Such things baffle scientists so much that they place boards with pictures on them, near ceiling in hospitals so that individuals who have NDE will be able to tell them if its possible be outside ones body.

The fact that science has yet to explain something does not mean one should place one's faith in the explanation being of a nature that is against all scientific consensus. One should consider it, sure. But one should not settle on the cop out of "well it's this, and even though science doesn't support it, I know it's right;" not, at least, without extremely consistent results. That is creating an outlandish belief out of fancy, instead of actual observation/experimentation/objectivity. We know what creates lightning, in the 'physical world.' But what makes those variables possible? Is there a consciousness that dictates the physiology of the universe? Who knows? But if you are going to put faith in such stories as Zeus and the Gods (which are stories that came about because of things "science couldn't yet explain"), then you owe it to yourself to thoroughly investigate your belief. I'm not explicitly relating astral projection to stories of Zeus, but it is the faith-based ideology of some people, that is the same.

That's all a bit off topic though, isn't it?

But, please, direct me to where I can read more about this 'other' interpretation of astral projection. I'm honestly curious.

I would like to see some sources on the idea that the term Astral Projection does anything but imply the notion of consciously leave the body

Oneironaut, you are reading to much into my words and interpreting things in the wrong way. Maybe you took the view that I am speaking from a spiritual perspective. Maybe I wasn't clear enough, so forgive me and lets try this again, as human beings we all try and explain phenomena, for example... why the hell am I floating outside my own body?

Person A with a mystical point of view will interpret the phenomena as the spirit and consciousness leaving the body, and he calls it astral projection.
Person B with a scientific point of view, interprets the out of body experience as a Lucid Dream, and says its and OBE conjured up by a dream.

Person A calls it astral projection, Person B calls it an OBE. So we now have two terms to describe one experience that both A and B had. Now, like I had written earlier, "At the end of the day I have no problem using both words, because they are just words" thats because they both describe the same experience. And if your are like me who doesn't take the views of the far left or right, what you label the experience as does not really matter, until you experience it.

The original question was, is an OBE different from a LD? My point of view it that they are and they happen at a different level of consciousness just like Ketsuyume wrote when he used his analogy of tuning in to the correct station. And the fact that science, yes science has shown that the time to experience an OBE is on the fringe on REM, and a LD happens during REM further backs up the claim.

And finally about my little ramble of science this and science that, I do know that science will probably answer most things in life but I have a gut feeling that not all will be answered.

Originally Posted by linz2d

The original question was, is an OBE different from a LD? My point of view it that they are and they happen at a different level of consciousness just like Ketsuyume wrote when he used his analogy of tuning in to the correct station. And the fact that science, yes science has shown that the time to experience an OBE is on the fringe on REM, and a LD happens during REM further backs up the claim.

And this is what I mean. To some people, there is a differentiation between OBE and LDs because they feel disparate altered states of consciousness. That is, they feel a difference. Conversely, some people may not feel this difference, and instead focus on the similarities between the two states, and conclude that OBEs and LDs are largely the same.

The magnitude of this difference/similarity is also largely contingent on whether you favour the scientific explanation or the mystical one.

Originally Posted by linz2d

Person A with a mystical point of view will interpret the phenomena as the spirit and consciousness leaving the body, and he calls it astral projection.
Person B with a scientific point of view, interprets the out of body experience as a Lucid Dream, and says its and OBE conjured up by a dream.

I'm guessing that my confusion comes from the fact that I have always understood there to be a very distinct difference between Astral Projection and a "base-level" OOBE. I mean, you can say "they are just words", but I can also call a lucid dream a bottle of Gin, but we all know that there is a difference.

And yes, even if the bit about OOBE's happening at a different stage than an LD is true (It is also said that people "don't visualize/dream during non-REM sleep, which isn't true), that gives no one reason to believe that an OOBE is a physics-defying phenomenon (like Astral Projection). I'm all for the open-minded concept of a subjective interpretation, but I have always known Astral Projection to mean a physical separation of conscious from body. So, when I see a newbie come into the world of dreaming, I do not like to see them confused by faith-based assumptions. If they want to go the way of AP, that's fine, but they need to at least be informed about what that entails. People should not be interchanging AP with dreaming, because the two concepts are different (as far as established science). A dream can be an OOBE, but to just "interpret" it as an Astral Projection is a much more serious claim about the nature of the universe, itself, and should be backed up by consistent facts - not a subjective 'feeling' that that's what's going on.

Just my opinion, though.