Mythology and Dream Archetypes

[Leo Volont]

In pursuing Dreams as a Spiritual Quest, it is not necessary to go into this Strange Land entirely without a map. As Carl Jung, the great Pioneer in Metaphysical Psychology discovered, the Ancient Mythologies seem to bear much resemblance to the intricacies of our Subconscious Minds. Even if we are of a Modern Religious bent, while we may have our Bible in the day, for our dreams, maybe it would be more useful to canonize Edith Hamilton and use her “Mythology” as our Second Bible as we dream. There is one section I would like to point out – the Story of Jason and the Golden Fleece and the Lovely Young Sorceress Medea. Jason was quite out of resources and so his Divine Sponsor, Hera, the Spouse of the Highest God Zeus, implored Aphrodite, the Goddess of Love, to help him, and so Aphrodite arranged for Cupid to shoot Medea, the daughter of a Mortal King, with an arrow to make her love Jason and thus serve him with all of her Magic. What we see here is 3 Levels of Spiritual Action all represented in the Feminine Aspect. It indicates that for one’s Spiritual Success there needs to be some coordination, from Higher to Lower, in the Sponsorship of one’s spirituality. Then it is quite astounding what Medea was able to do for Jason – first to make him invulnerable in Battle, then to sooth the Serpent Guardian of the Golden Fleece, and then even to assert power over life and death, youth and old age. She exercised this power by scrubbing all the flesh off of a person’s bones and placing them in a boiling cauldron, out of which would emerge a new Being in the Prime of Life. The unfortunate denouement of the story resulted from the sad lapse that Jason was not also shot with an arrow of love so that he quite used Medea and abandoned her when they arrived back to Greece at journey’s end. She subsequently killed her two sons by Jason and left him and Greece to the slow rot which History would hold in store for that once great Civilization. Then we have the Story of Demeter, the First Goddess of Civilization – the Goddess of Corn, that is, of surplus food supply without which there can be no Civilization. She had the gift of Divine Fire into which she could immerse one in order to establish him or her in Immortality, but the terror of the experience would frighten those away from partaking of the advantage. Do we notice a trend here which we should keep in mind during our Dreaming? Certainly, and it is that most Divine Assistance comes from the Feminine Aspects. Male Archetypes make fine Heroes but seem to be best at serving themselves. If one needs Help then it is most likely to come from a Goddess or a King’s Sorceress Daughter. A word to Christians. You can probably expect no help from Jesus, who was Murdered quite like Medea’s Sons for exactly the same kind of treachery that was played upon Medea by Jason as the Hebrew Nation that ill regarded the Blessed Virgin Mary for whom Christ was just a faithful spokesman for His Mother. It is not the Son that has the Potency in this World, but the Daughter/Spouse/Mother Archetype. The second lesson is that our Body Image must undergo a complete renovation. The Flesh must come off our bones. We must pass through the Fire. None of our Lucid Dream parlour tricks of meaningless and trivial control will come to naught if we disregard these Priorities.

[dreamboat]

Interesting.............But who was the guy shot with all the arrows ?. Became a Saint I think. A sort of Gay Icon ??. This is going to Bug me all night.

[dreamboat]

St Sebastian ................

[Aethereal_Pellucidity]

Well met, Mr. Volant, well met indeed! I should have said the same myself, had I the eloquence to do so. This feminine endowment of spiritual enlightenment (or whatever one chooses to call it) seems to come about in three ways, to my knowledge. The primary feminine figure is, of course, the mother-figure. This represents endearment, care, and gentle guidance, and is often central to our path of development, in the dream world or otherwise. The second is the maiden or virgin, usually what Jung would call the anima in a male dreamer. This figure represents the vast possibilities and the enormous potential for growth, especially in the area of dreaming. I do not mean to be vulgar, but this seems to be closely related to the Judaic and pagan practices of Holy Prostitution -- that is, sex with a woman for the purpose of attaining enlightenment through that union. The last of these is the crone figure, an old hag, often exaggeratedly ugly. This figure is extraordinarily wise, and can often reveal a great deal to you when you ask her questions. This aspect is primarily there to teach a person that everything -- absolutely everything external -- will fade away, and that someday one too must die. If one has any questions about the afterlife, this is probably the perfect person to ask.

[dreamboat]

How would the animus ?...anima? effect a Gay Lucid Dreamer. (Not That I Am). Maybe some type of Hybrid. Strange, but I have had a dream where I am being chased through a maze by a Minotaur.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by dreamboat Interesting.............But who was the guy shot with all the arrows ?. Became a Saint I think. A sort of Gay Icon ??. This is going to Bug me all night. I should know whom you are referring to but can't connect a name. But, then again, I tend to distrust the glorification of martyrdom. Barbarians are just as likely, or MORE likely to glorify dying for their cause as any Civilized People. Most Primitive Warrior People hold it as their highest achievement to die well in battle. this just makes them more efficient pawns for their ruthlessly selfish chieftans. So it worries me when the Bishops of the Church's begin to incalcate the same virtues as would some Bandit King. I would sooner believe that Martyrdom indicates that Divine Protection has been withdrawn from that particular society or that particular Civilization. Often it flies in the face of any notion of Inexorable Progress, as more often than not it seems as though Evil prevails over Good. But perhaps in the Divine Scheme of things any partial perfection is to be rejected and everything simply destroyed, so as to completely erase the Board for a complete new start. So it is that Corrupt Civilizations, even with the benefits of whatever Civilized Virtue may still remain with them, are allowed to fall completely into the control of the Barbarians where the Chaos becomes utterly complete. Only from that can there be a Complete Renewal. And so there will be Martyrs, but only because there had been some unforgivable Sin within their Civilization. Societies do not degenerate into Violence because they are successful but only because they are deeply flawed.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Aethereal_Pellucidity Well met, Mr. Volant, well met indeed! I should have said the same myself, had I the eloquence to do so. This feminine endowment of spiritual enlightenment (or whatever one chooses to call it) seems to come about in three ways, to my knowledge. The primary feminine figure is, of course, the mother-figure. This represents endearment, care, and gentle guidance, and is often central to our path of development, in the dream world or otherwise. The second is the maiden or virgin, usually what Jung would call the anima in a male dreamer. This figure represents the vast possibilities and the enormous potential for growth, especially in the area of dreaming. I do not mean to be vulgar, but this seems to be closely related to the Judaic and pagan practices of Holy Prostitution -- that is, sex with a woman for the purpose of attaining enlightenment through that union. The last of these is the crone figure, an old hag, often exaggeratedly ugly. This figure is extraordinarily wise, and can often reveal a great deal to you when you ask her questions. This aspect is primarily there to teach a person that everything -- absolutely everything external -- will fade away, and that someday one too must die. If one has any questions about the afterlife, this is probably the perfect person to ask. I was wondering when we were going to speak. I noticed your Indian Flag. Though I am a Catholic, perhaps you recognize the heavy Sanskrit and Indic influence upon all of my philosophies. I was quite the Orientalist in my younger years, and ofcourse the center of all those studies is India. An Angel came recently to me and pointed out that the World was in a Spiritual Drought and that the Peoples of the Three Higher Religions (represented by 3 Mountains separated by wide geographical expanses ) would need to be brought to a single Lake of Spiritual Waters. I let my fellow Catholics believe in the meanwhile that Catholicism is that Lake, but if the details of my dream were to be revealed in their entirety, the Spiritual Lake that was shown to me was rather much located as though one had suddenly damned up the Ganges. It is my considered opinion that all of the Original Religions of Civilized Peoples were centered upon Active Female Divinities, though with Higher Male influences from Above. India is the the last Society to openly maintain such an Order, but the Catholic Church with its strong Marian Component maintains a Goddess Religion as an Esoteric Mystery that isn't entirely obvious even to most Catholics.

[Leo Volont]

Oh... Dear Pellucid, About the notion of the Old Krone Archetype... I once had a Dream of her. You know what that is all about, don't you. The Ugly Appearance is a Veil to test True Discernment. If one can see the Beauty in the Ugly Krone then one can go on to the next level. In my dream she was singing and playing a guitar, and amoung a crowd of people, I was the only one who saw past her ugliness and heard the beautiful song. When I began slapping heads to make them shut up so I could listen, the Krone stopped the Dream and came to me with the Message "The Faculty most worthy of cultivation is the Faculty of True Discernment". I had pierced that veil.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by dreamboat How would the animus ?...anima? effect a Gay Lucid Dreamer. (Not That I Am). Maybe some type of Hybrid. Strange, but I have had a dream where I am being chased through a maze by a Minotaur. The Story of Theseus and the Minotaur is one of Conquering Death in one's Dreams. First look at the sourse of the Minotaur. King Minos was given a Great Bull by the God Poseidon so that it could be sacrificed. But King Minos thought the Bull too fine to kill and sacrificed some lesser animal, thus annoying Poseidon to the extreme. So Poseidon had the King's wife fall maddly and passionately in love with the Bull (oh yuck!) and the result was the birth of Minotaur -- half man and half bull. Because of a grudge between Minos and Athens, Athens, the weaker military power, had to supply Minos with an annual quota of sacrificial victims to be fed to the Minotaur in its subterranean maze -- the Labyrinth. Theseus decided he would kill the Minotaur and thus put an end to these sacrifices. We see Feminine Intercession in the form, again, of the King's Daughter comeing to his aid -- with a ball of string so he would not lose his way in the Maze. The Maze is the Mind -- the Subconscious to be exact. The Minotaur is the idea that the Flesh is our own. The Bull not sacrificed back to God but kept as our own -- the turning of Divine Love and Spirituality into Material Beastiality. The Killing of the Minotaur completes what should have been the Original Sacrifice. The Survival of Theseus, our Hero, is the realization that there is no Death in the Mind of the Dreamer -- that one can return from the Inescapable Labyrinth. Where I think the Myth diverges from the Truth, is that to truly conquer death within Dreaming, it is easier to be killed and discover that one does not truly die. I think this is what was meant by Theseus killing the Minotaur with his bear hands -- it indicates that the Minotaur had no real power to kill and thus took no real power to neutralize

[A Lost Soul]

Originally posted by Leo Volont Oh... Dear Pellucid, About the notion of the Old Krone Archetype... I once had a Dream of her. *You know what that is all about, don't you. *The Ugly Appearance is a Veil to test True Discernment. *If one can see the Beauty in the Ugly Krone then one can go on to the next level. *In my dream she was singing and playing a guitar, and amoung a crowd of people, I was the only one who saw past her ugliness and heard the beautiful song. *When I began slapping heads to make them shut up so I could listen, the Krone stopped the Dream and came to me with the Message \"The Faculty most worthy of cultivation is the Faculty of True Discernment\". *I had pierced that veil. Sorry to butt in on the fine conversation going on here, but I wanted to say something about this real quick: I think that is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard! I won't get into a spiritual discussion here, but I am a witch (or Pagan if you prefer), and your description of this dream touched me. Anyway, sorry for the interruption. Carry on! ^_^

[Aethereal_Pellucidity]

Mr. Volant: I did indeed notice what I discerned to be an Eastern influence on your writings. It does at times seem that these are some of the better balanced philosophies, as far as gender balance is concerned. Actually, though, I have often been surprised how much, in essence, Hinduism is related to Catholocism, especially in its younger years. I find it interesting that you refer to the Spirit as a lake; some months ago I dreamed of such a lake -- austere, beautiful, and untouched by most. And the thought that immediately came into my mind was, "This is Moksha; I must share this with others." Your description reminded me of this dream I had. However, I will not be desceptive. I write this currently from North America. I chose my flag because my animus (though at times I wonder if he isn't a past incarnation of myself) lived in India and was a dedicate to the Nataraj (thus my avatar). I hope you do not think less of me for this. As for the old Crone, I met her several times before I passed the test, but I myself am dedicate to her son figure, the Early Man of Impeding Death. That is not so morbid as it sounds, for he was a very comforting presence -- like an Angel, though he was clothed like a Mayan god. His message for me (since every Angel brings a message, if you follow the linguistics of the matter) was that I could and should be content to die at any moment in time. An odd message for a sixteen-year-old, but I never expected to live very long. I think it is more of a spiritual message than literal (especially since he did not communicate with me in words). That I should carpa diem, quam minimum credulo postero. To live in the Now (for truly, what time is there but now?), without relying on the phantoms of the Past or the fantasies of the Future. I hope that makes sense.

[irishcream]

how would you know if you'd met an archetype? I continually dream of someone i know, all the time...but that's not an archetype..or is it? he is an older man..i don't know if that counts. And sometimes i've wondered if he comes into my dreams to try and teach me things that he cannot get through to me in real life...which would mean i haven't learnt yet...

[Aethereal_Pellucidity]

An archetype is a symbol shared between cultures by way of what Jung calls the collective unconscious. This could be anything ranging from snakes as a symbol of fertility and everlastingness to a knight on shining armor representing your hero-figure. Oftentimes, these archetypes will take the form of someone you are already familiar with. Say you needed to learn a message about dying. You might recieve it from your grandmother, or someone old and ready to pass on. Or you might recieve the message from someone who has already passed on. Or say that you were in need of comfort -- in need of a mother-figure. You could be resting on the lap of the Goddess if you're pagan, or you might see the Blessed Virgin if you're Catholic, or you might even see your own mother. In that sense, perhaps this fellow who keeps showing up in your dreams is your brain's equivocation with an archetypal character. But it is probably not a message from this specific person so much as a manifestation of something archetypal in order to teach you one of the Universal Truths. Does that make any sense to you?

[irishcream]

Originally posted by Aethereal_Pellucidity An archetype is a symbol shared between cultures by way of what Jung calls the collective unconscious. This could be anything ranging from snakes as a symbol of fertility and everlastingness to a knight on shining armor representing your hero-figure. Oftentimes, these archetypes will take the form of someone you are already familiar with. Say you needed to learn a message about dying. You might recieve it from your grandmother, or someone old and ready to pass on. Or you might recieve the message from someone who has already passed on. Or say that you were in need of comfort -- in need of a mother-figure. You could be resting on the lap of the Goddess if you're pagan, or you might see the Blessed Virgin if you're Catholic, or you might even see your own mother. I see my mother a lot in my dreams. She's not so much comforting, as giving practical advice. We're currently separated by the Atlantic ocean, we've never been so far apart before, and i think i'm really missing her. And it's difficult for her to come home just now. In that sense, perhaps this fellow who keeps showing up in your dreams is your brain's equivocation with an archetypal character. But it is probably not a message from this specific person so much as a manifestation of something archetypal in order to teach you one of the Universal Truths.[/b] Yes, it makes sense to me. But what is the archetype, and what is the universal truth i must learn? He first came into my dreams nearly two years ago, and he's always popping in and out. It's bugging me now...i just know i have something big to learn, and i don't think it's going to be easy, or painless... Does that make any sense to you?[/b]

[nina]

To Leo and Pellucid...is there a way to summon these people/messages/truths into your dreams? Or is it something that just sort of comes to you when you are ready for it. I feel like alot of my dreams are meaningless, but perhaps I just cannot recognize the significance in them. Also, what does it mean when you confront yourself in a lucid dream?

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by irishcream how would you know if you'd met an archetype? *I continually dream of someone i know, all the time...but that's not an archetype..or is it? he is an older man..i don't know if that counts. *And sometimes i've wondered if he comes into my dreams to try and teach me things that he cannot get through to me in real life...which would mean i haven't learnt yet... Yes, an Archetype can take the appearance of a person you know -- the Wise Old Man Archetype only needs to appear as somebody you would trust to be sensible, whom you would listen to. The Wise Old Man Archetype does not distribute Grace or Power -- that is the job of the Goddesses or the Fruits of the Quest. What the Wise Old Man Archetype does is simply give good advice and point in the correct directions or even to provide news and information for the dreamer to reflect on. Typically the Wise Old Man is less cryptic or mysterious than would be a Female Oracle who speaks on many levels at once and you never know what to think until you've thought about it a long long time, and then you still wonder whether you got it right.

[dreamboat]

Do you really see these dream characters or what. This is beginning to smack of "Tea from China"

[Yume]

There is an end according to Jung on how many different archetypes there can be, but is there an end in dreams. Is there an end to the type of archeypes outside of our universe since there could be things humans could not comprehend outside of our own solar system. Really you cannot say that any archetype is always right for every situation. There could be a time when mother-archetypes could not heal the world. You need a certain archetype for different situations. It's like saying you need different bait when fishing for different kinds of fish. I can think of many stories where a female heroine is helped by an animus and many other male archetypes such as when Esther is helped by one of King Achashveirosh's men. Without his secrets on how to seduce the king it is said that she would have never become king. The man was seen as a male archetype that helped Esther the heroine overcome the other women. Really it depends on the situation whether the help comes from a male or female archetype.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by Aquanina To Leo and Pellucid...is there a way to summon these people/messages/truths into your dreams? Or is it something that just sort of comes to you when you are ready for it. I feel like alot of my dreams are meaningless, but perhaps I just cannot recognize the significance in them. Also, what does it mean when you confront yourself in a lucid dream? I certainly had wanted to engage with these Archetypes, and that desire may have counted for a lot, but it was not as though I had been able to summon them. They came at the right time. The Old Man would always come with timely advise. The Goddess Archetypes would come, I suppose, as Welcomers to the next level. I had not thought of it before now, but when pressed into thinking about it, it now seems reasonable to suppose that each discreet Spiritual Level has its own Patron Goddess. I think that the Wise Old Man can follow you from level to level. Confront yourself in a Lucid Dream. You mean two actual bodies that are both your form, one which you are consciously inhabiting and the other, a copy of yourself? Hmmmm. Now I always meet these Ideals -- these Adonis-like Young Kings for whom I act in the role of a servant or guard -- a side-kick. But you meet another version of the Self. I don't wish to flatter, but this indicates that you should consider yourself as something of an Ideal, in and of yourself. Now, you might fully realize that such a notion is preposterous because ... because... because you have problems hopping up and down on one foot while singing "Tomorrow Tomorrow", but I think your Dreams want you to start perceiving yourself in the role of an Ideal. This is not to say that you are in any way perfect, that is, successfully perfect. I may have already told you, that in my own Dreams, the Ideal Characters whom I serve are often almost disfunctional in their Romantic Idealism, and my pragmatic view of things is constantly at service in rescuing them from their perfections which ill-fit an imperfect World. But even with those reservations, I never fail to admire the instinctual Idealism of these Beautiful and Noble Young Kings, even though I have to protect them from the results of such consistent nobility. But it seems like you are something of an Ideal in your own right. Hmmmm. You might need a side-kick... Oh, and I was thinking about something you brought up a few weeks ago -- the disfigured body image thing. Medea could pass a body through a purifying fire. Demeter would completely remove all flesh from a mortals bones and then, leave them dead, or replace the flesh with a new Spiritual and Immortal Body. I think our dreams of Physical Disfigurement are telling us we must find that next level in which we either purify by flame or simply let all of this corrupt flesh fall off the bone. I'm not there yet, so I'm still just guessing about all of that.

[Leo Volont]

Originally posted by dreamboat Do you really see these dream characters or what. *This is beginning to smack of \"Tea from China\" Who me? My dream characters may seem a bit overblown, but you need to remember that I am sixtysomething years old and that I speak of the creme of my Life's Dreams -- my "Greatest Hits" if I can call them that... perhaps all of maybe only 20 dreams -- from a collection of thousands of dreams as ordinary as the ones that bore everyone else as well as myself.

[Leo Volont]

Dear Yume, Indeed, I have fallen into the trap of appearing to oversimplify the workings of these Archetypes, as though their behaviors, attributes and contributions must adhere within some pre-ordained boundaries. The Truth is probably that the Higher Mind retains the Option to be Creative. During one of the brief lulls in which nobody posted anything which I cared to comment upon, I read a few more pages of my new edition of Edith Hamilton's "Mythology", which I enjoyed reading as a child, and now wonder that I was able to follow her educated prose so well... anyway, she continually emphasizes that the Gods of Mythology either changed, that is evolved, over the Centuries, or the ways in which they were perceived by the People had evolved. Perhaps the Truth of it was that it was a bit of Both. The Higher Mind of the Collective Consciousness Evolves. The Archetypes learn new tricks. The Wise Old Man becomes wiser. The Sorceress Medea finds a new recipe for her witches cauldron. An Investigator for the Vatican -- one of the Clerics whose job it is to certify the miraculous and validate prophecy -- made the comment that he supposes one of the signs of an actual Revelation is that it be Unique while still discernably part of the greater whole. It must be integral while still being original. We can see it reaching further than it has ever reached before while still being the Hand of God. so, yes, it would be a mistake for me to suppose that the Archetypes would stay confined within the same old boundaries.

[irishcream]

[quote] An Investigator for the Vatican -- one of the Clerics whose job it is to certify the miraculous and validate prophecy -- made the comment that he supposes one of the signs of an actual Revelation is that it be Unique while still discernably part of the greater whole. It must be integral while still being original. We can see it reaching further than it has ever reached before while still being the Hand of God. so, yes, it would be a mistake for me to suppose that the Archetypes would stay confined within the same old boundaries. and if this were the case, wouldn't they eventually stop appearing to us, because they would have no more to teach us, and be unable to take us to the next level, as it were... i could be talking total crap of course.

[Yume]

Change is important to keep consistency. If archetypes could not change over time then life as we know it probably would not exist.

[Aethereal_Pellucidity]

I think that a great deal of the adaptability of archetypes is either cultural or personal. Cultural because, to a great extent, the exact symbols that might have been interpreted one way in ancient times might be ignored by modern people. BUT THE MESSAGE HAS TO COME ACROSS. So the archetype modifies itself and reappears continually until the lesson it is trying to teach has been absorbed and understood, fully and completely. That is WHY it is so important for a lucid dreamer to learn about the traditional archetypes. Firstly, if you learn about, think about, and consider archetypes and what they stand for, it will be easier for them to enter your dreams. And also, when they do, you will be better able to understand them for what they are sooner than might be possible otherwise. Which is precisely the point. Life is, whatever some of me peers might think, exceptionally short, and there is only so much Time in which to learn oh so very much. My personal goal, then, is to learn how to learn quickly, efficiently, and completely. An understanding of archetypes and archetypal relationships is one of the best ways to do precisely that, both in the dream world and -- to some extent -- my waking life. I hope that clarifies some on why I think archetypes to be so crucially important. ~*Aethereal_Pellucidity*~

[irishcream]

it clarifies it very well, but where should i begin learning about these archetypes?