Theory On Dream Characters

Here it is: Saying this whole shared dreaming stuff is true, heres somthing. What if when we arent lucid dreaming, this means everyone in the world, and we are actually dream characters to other lucid dreams.

I had an experience where a character in my dream called me a dream character.

If this was real, wouldnt that be crazy


WHEN YOU ARENT LUCID DREAMING, YOU ARE A DREAM CHARACTER LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN YOUR DREAMS.

WHAT IF THOSE PEOPLE IN YOUR NON LUCID AND LUCID DREAMS WERE JUST OTHER PEOPLE NOT HAVING A LUCID DREAM.

Very interesting. However, by now, wouldn't someone have come up to me (or someone else for that matter) and told me that I'm part of their dream (if they were having a LD)?

Well theres so many people in the world, the odds of that person finding you are very slim

Ok, understandable. I don't know if this is what you had in mind, but to add on a little, if we WERE dream characters, what if we were the dream characters for someone in some alternate universe, and we were connected through space and time by dreams. I may be pushing it, just a thought.

I said that in the irc but got shot down

Its troo bro

Even when you are lucid dreaming you're a DC to someone else. Maybe that's why dc's do the wierdest stuff to you.

What if no one has ever dreamed about you?

Do you still exist?

Well, if that's true I'll have to apologize to my ex-teacher for cutting his arm with a katana when he laughed at me the other night.

So some murders are people completing a dream task? xD.
Jokes aside, its an interesting theory. I like it.
But...
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instanc...x/17556948.jpg
All hell could break loose.

Here is an experiment on another forum where some members would interview and question DC's to test their "realness". I've read through all of the threads and it is very interesting and a good read.

Testing the "realness" of Dream Characters

You guys might be on to something here...

I once started a thread called Finding yourself in other people's dreams in which, I guess, asked this very question.

After all, if this dream-sharing thing is real, and is literally a force of nature, wouldn't we all be doing it all the time, without ever knowing it?

Definite food for thought, especially for those who choose to abuse or destroy the dream characters they encounter....

Thanks for the comments!

/me shuns GeOh for linking ld4all.

Suggesting DC's are real people also suggests dreaming takes place on another plane and/or a huge telepathic network.
Controversial. Interesting. If you can prove it, let me know, and then tell me how it changes anything.

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Originally Posted by Evolventity

/me shuns GeOh for linking ld4all.

Suggesting DC's are real people also suggests dreaming takes place on another plane and/or a huge telepathic network.
Controversial. Interesting. If you can prove it, let me know, and then tell me how it changes anything.

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Sorry, you do not like ld4all? I liked the experiment they did, and it related to this topic so I thought I would share it :P.

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Originally Posted by Evolventity

Suggesting DC's are real people also suggests dreaming takes place on another plane and/or a huge telepathic network. Controversial. Interesting. If you can prove it, let me know, and then tell me how it changes anything.

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Aside from the "other plane" bit (why does communication, or linking of dreams, require an alternate reality? Can't we all just be wandering around in each other's minds?), I agree. Yes, this is controversial, interesting, and likely little more than fun fantasy.

But if natural dream sharing -- which is what we're talking about here -- were ever proven, I would imagine it would change everything, given that validation of universal dream sharing would redefine what it means to be human, toss out the core law of modern physics -- that nothing travels faster than light -- and quickly be followed by research and practical application that would change the way we communicate, learn, are entertained, and, above all, move through reality itself. And, given the way we humans react to new technologies, these changes would come at a revolutionary pace. So, if this crazy theory is ever proven, be prepared for your world to change in ways you never imagined, at a pace most will likely never keep up with!

Now that I think of it, proof of shared dreaming, and all that would accompany and follow its discovery, would produce a world-changing wave indeed, and those who master shared dreaming first (through, for instance, LD'ing) will be at the crest of this wave. Which could mean, God help us, that Waking Nomad may one day rule us all!

...All this is of course is why this subject is a lot of fun to talk about, but there's little chance we're really sharing dreams. After all, if we were, I think some Einstein would have come along by now to show us how it works, and how to exploit it.

...Unless of course dream sharing represents a symptom of our next step in evolution, and it truly is a new facet of human consciousness, still buried in our unconscious minds, just as things like language, tool use and invention likely once were... Waiting for discovery, perhaps by some intrepid and open-minded advanced LD'er?

Again, lots of cool stuff here, the coolest of all being the thirty seconds we can close our eyes and imagine it could be true!

Sour about the loss @ OKC today

Anyways, it is a cool idea that we share the dream world (sounds like one of them complicated Quantum Physics theories), but I doubt it.
But with technology today I do believe shared dreams is just around the corner.

Can be a good book though :D

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Originally Posted by Sageous

....given that validation of universal dream sharing would redefine what it means to be human, toss out the core law of modern physics -- that nothing travels faster than light --.....
Now that I think of it, proof of shared dreaming, and all that would accompany and follow its discovery, would produce a world-changing wave indeed, and those who master shared dreaming first (through, for instance, LD'ing) will be at the crest of this wave. Which could mean, God help us, that Waking Nomad may one day rule us all!

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Oh man, I laughed my *ss off! That's funny. I bet we would all be having fun though, he is pretty entertaining.

Oddly enough the "laws" of physics are being torn apart in the last few years. Things can move faster than light, because of some weird stuff they can not explain, but I know how (sure you say) :)
Two examples- Any galaxy that is not bound in our own super cluster is moving away from us faster than light. They move away, not in a certain direction, just away, and very fast. Next, the big bang supposedly expanded to the size oof our solar system in something like a ten thousanth of a second. It takes 8 minutes for light from the sun to reach us. The big band then spread at millions of time the speed of light. They say it all happened in thousanths of a second. Or, and this is what I believe, it just appeared everywhere instantly.
This has a tie in to this thread. How can such craziness be explained? Simple, this universe is much more like the matrix than most of you can imagine. In fact it is the belief of yogis that God is "dreaming" the universe. No B.S. yogis (my own faith) state it clearly in ancient texts, that the universe is not real, because it is the lucid dream of God, and is composed of dream stuff.
That is how I explain the entire universe just materializing allat one time. That is how I explain the size of the universe, it is as big as the dreamer cares to picture it. Truely powerful magic and energy manipulation is much easier when you "see past the illusion of Maya"
Everything amazing like super massive black holes and shared dreaming becomes instantly believable and understandable. If E=MC2 is saying matter is actually made purely of energy, and add in the "let there be light" belief in a creater, then the world being a perfectly stable lucid dream on a scale with no limit, then everything falls in place.
So, the universe all ready being composed of dream energy, the yogic belief is that there are then dreams within the dream. I run into other entities often, and assume many of them are other dreamers. I do not even need there to bea biological mechanism for such powers. If the universe can pop into existance, then for there to be other planes of existance where we all go when we dream is no more fantastic to me than I find Chinese Buffets (oh, and thank you God for those, very cool dream you are having, glad to be one of your DCs)

probably not. You can make dc's appear however you want them to be. You are god of your dream characters.

I actually believe in something like this. I believe that some dream characters are part of your own imagination while some are actually real people who are dreaming the same time as you. This is more of a beyond dreaming subject bit iz definitely think sharing a dream is possible.

Sivason:

I'm not sure where you're getting your science info from, but I was still under the impression that, aside from some quantum entanglement curiosities in subatomic particles, nothing has been found to move faster than light -- especially massive objects like galaxies...and the Big Bang may have occurred in an instant, but scientifically speaking it took many billions of years for the universe to achieve its current size -- it did not happen in an instant. No need to argue the point, though, because I don't think it matters in this case.

That aside, what you said is of import here, because you are professing articles of faith (like that we're all just part of God's dream), and as truths bound only by your belief, no proof is necessary, and absolutely nothing can be done with those truths in any practical way. That's all fine, and I will not and cannot disagree with your beliefs. But your belief in a thing, no matter how confidently held, cannot make that thing "real" to everyone; people can still choose not to believe you, because all they have is your (and of course your respective religious tenets') word as proof. Scientific, concrete proof, however, eliminates that choice, because it is backed up by practical application that invades our everyday life. That is the thing I was getting at:

If humans can prove, and then act upon the proposition that we are all part of God's dream, and/or that we are regularly sharing dreams through some metaphysical thought-energy based system of communication that defies existing laws of physics (yes, it would, even in the terms you state above), the world would become a manifestation of your faith. In other words, everyone would know that what you believe is true, whether they choose to or not, because reality itself would shift as the science behind the discovery is put into practical use...I think that would be most excellent, don't you?

So mass collective dreaming, thereby implying that it's no individual's dream. That we're mere participators in a mass illusion. And so if I was the last man on earth, my dreams would mirror this too? If it was a mass illusion, despite each individual's dream being seemingly erratic and spontaneous, I'd expect a sort of pattern to emerge...order on the chaos from afar - something making it connected, coherent and stable as a whole.

If there wasn't, such a mass illusion would be seemingly irrelevant if it appears to be individualised and incoherent from any perspective.

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

So mass collective dreaming, thereby implying that it's no individual's dream. That we're mere participators in a mass illusion. And so if I was the last man on earth, my dreams would mirror this too? If it was a mass illusion, despite each individual's dream being seemingly erratic and spontaneous, I'd expect a sort of pattern to emerge...order on the chaos from afar - something making it connected, coherent and stable as a whole.

If there wasn't, such a mass illusion would be seemingly irrelevant if it appears to be individualised and incoherent from any perspective.

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That's not what I was thinking at all, even about what Sivason was saying.

Why would an unconscious, and potentially conscious thru LD'ing, communication between people in dreams imply a loss of individuality?

Can't we maintain our individuality while we're in touch with countless other individuals? Don't we do that in waking life every day, or at least try to? And, let's say Sivason is correct and we're all just awash in God's dream, wouldn't we still be able to retain our individuality as we navigate His vast whim? I think so...in a sense, we do that in waking life every day, too.

So it all might not be as much of a downer as you presume...I think individuality can easily be held onto. It's likely unavoidable, given both that we are sentient so by definition must have individuality, and because a system of over seven billion souls (or one God overseeing an entire universe) is simply too huge to ever have its own will be noticed by us micro-individuals, should there even be one. Hell, individuality might even be necessary, in order for God or the system to differentiate each of its gazillion nodes.

Another thought, now that you got me to think about it... I wonder, should this communication exist, if it was built into our unconscious minds rather than conscious minds in order to preserve our sanity; and we're only "discovering" it now because we've evolved far enough that our conscious minds might handle it without losing it? Hmm...

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Sivason:

I'm not sure where you're getting your science info from, but I was still under the impression that, aside from some quantum entanglement curiosities in subatomic particles, nothing has been found to move faster than light -- especially massive objects like galaxies...and the Big Bang may have occurred in an instant, but scientifically speaking it took many billions of years for the universe to achieve its current size -- it did not happen in an instant. No need to argue the point, though, because I don't think it matters in this case.
.........

If humans can prove, and then act upon the proposition that we are all part of God's dream, and/or that we are regularly sharing dreams through some metaphysical thought-energy based system of communication that defies existing laws of physics (yes, it would, even in the terms you state above), the world would become a manifestation of your faith. In other words, everyone would know that what you believe is true, whether they choose to or not, because reality itself would shift as the science behind the discovery is put into practical use...I think that would be most excellent, don't you?

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Sageous, Check out the series "How the Universe Works" on net flixs. It is the coolest thing I have ever watched. It is only 2 years old and shows the most up to date cutting edge astrophysics. They are finding out that all sorts of "laws" are not absolute. If you travelled at the speed of light, you could never reach any place beyond our own super cluster because they are moving away faster than light! The theory is that empty space is not nothing, but is a real factor and it is expanding in the space between superclusters much faster than light, thus pushing the galaxies along at well above light speed. The big bang thing is that while it did take hundreds of millions of years for the big bang to settle down and form stars, infinate space is getting bigger. If it expanded at millions of times the speed of light (thats what they say) or it just appeared, it lends believability to my belief that the universe need not follow certain laws, unless it just happens to at the time. Dark energy and dark matter are also talked about. They say basically that if galaxies form using our current model of physics, none of it should work. The only way to get a computer model to agree it is possable is to add far more energy and mass into the equation, then can possably be understood from the point of neutonion physics.

Of course my tie in to this thread is,,, there does not need to be a neutonian explination to how shared dreaming works. It would be pretty cool if they prove some of this stuff, but other people believing what I do has never been a concern for me. And, of course, you are correct that my explaination is a matter of faith and thus only interesting, not being something that can be addressed scientifically for many decades to come, if ever.

I guess having personally had the truths of Dream Yoga shown to me, I take a point of view like if Morpheous tried to tell Neo before he took the pill, that it did not matter what physics were involved, because none of it is actually real. A totally unsupportable point of view from most prespectives.

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

So mass collective dreaming, thereby implying that it's no individual's dream. That we're mere participators in a mass illusion. And so if I was the last man on earth, my dreams would mirror this too? If it was a mass illusion, despite each individual's dream being seemingly erratic and spontaneous, I'd expect a sort of pattern to emerge...order on the chaos from afar - something making it connected, coherent and stable as a whole.

If there wasn't, such a mass illusion would be seemingly irrelevant if it appears to be individualised and incoherent from any perspective.

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My own personal belief is that you can have private unshared dreams inside your head in which DCs are just imagery. Also, you can have dreams in a collective dimension where some DCs will be imagined and some wiill be other dreamers. You can usually tell pretty easily if a DC is imaginary once you have a few clear experiances with other real entities.

Being the last man on Earth would not mean anything, the other dreamers do not all come from earth, I have met many who claim to be ailens. The dreamer creates an image of the entity based on what he expects. You will almost always see an alien who is appearing as a DC as your own species unless they make an effort to show you their own vision of how they think of themselves. Also, not all of the dreamers will be from this specific dimension. You are going to a new dimension in shared dreams, so the dreamers need not come from this one. So unless you were the last person in all of creation....

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Originally Posted by Sageous

That's not what I was thinking at all, even about what Sivason was saying.

Why would an unconscious, and potentially conscious thru LD'ing, communication between people in dreams imply a loss of individuality?

Can't we maintain our individuality while we're in touch with countless other individuals? Don't we do that in waking life every day, or at least try to? And, let's say Sivason is correct and we're all just awash in God's dream, wouldn't we still be able to retain our individuality as we navigate His vast whim? I think so...in a sense, we do that in waking life every day, too.

So it all might not be as much of a downer as you presume...I think individuality can easily be held onto. It's likely unavoidable, given both that we are sentient so by definition must have individuality, and because a system of over seven billion souls (or one God overseeing an entire universe) is simply too huge to ever have its own will be noticed by us micro-individuals, should there even be one. Hell, individuality might even be necessary, in order for God or the system to differentiate each of its gazillion nodes.

Another thought, now that you got me to think about it... I wonder, should this communication exist, if it was built into our unconscious minds rather than conscious minds in order to preserve our sanity; and we're only "discovering" it now because we've evolved far enough that our conscious minds might handle it without losing it? Hmm...

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lol I was replying in general to the thread starter, but nonetheless, it got you thinking. And that's not a bad thing. ^_^

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

lol I was replying in general to the thread starter, but nonetheless, it got you thinking. And that's not a bad thing. ^_^

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Oops! Never mind then, and thanks... Because it is indeed not a bad thing.

Sivason:

You may have missed my point. My fault, I'm sure, so I will try again.

That point was that I was considering what it would mean if some DC's were avatars of real beings, that dream-sharing was real, and if this were common knowledge among all humans, simply because it was irrecovably proven, and not simply held on faith by a mystical few. I guess I was trying to go in a direction, per the OP, that said that dream-sharing would have such a powerful impact on human existence, were it proven, you'd think that would have happened by now... Unles of course we are only just now growing mature enough to step up to this level of consciousness. That seemed like an exciting conversation to be had!

In a sense, I was trying to chat about the potentials of a world where dream-sharing is as common as flipping on a light switch (something that would have been a scientifically impossible miracle just 2 centuries ago, BTW). I wished to avoid the standard dream-sharing/DC's-are-real exchange that amounts to "It's true because I said so," followed by "It's not because the world says so," then an ongoing "is too" "Is not" exchange that helps no one. I was not taking the side of science, or assuming that all that can be known is known, and I really did not want to fall into another conversation about all the new "discoveries" in science. But it happened anyway. My bad, I guess...I should have known better. Funny, I feel like I just said this on a different thread.

Two other quick things that I feel compelled to say, even after all that:

First, I have watched "How the Universe Works," and I highly recommend you take their pronouncements with a grain of salt, as their producers are more interested in ratings and ad dollars than truth. Like many shows of this type, they dwell only on the wildest, usually least supported theories and then attach their own ideas and pictures to make them even wilder. I'm sure there is truth in there somewhere, just as there is on any airing of Star Trek, but the truth is wrapped in very shiny paper that must be peeled away...preferably by reading a book on the subject (you might try work by Brian Greene, for instance). Galaxies do not go faster than light, hyperspace may exist, but if it were practical the the same massive changes to humanity that practical dream-sharing would cause would occur... And also, if a galaxy were moving away from us at a pace exceeding light speed, how would we know, since its light would never reach us? No need to answer; since this is way off topic, and I simply don't care enough, I'll leave it at that...I hope you will as well.

Second, I have been practicing dream yoga for decades -- I apparently was doing so before I finally learned the term about ten years ago, and have personally experienced its "truths," which I assume is similar to being shown them...we're not all newbies here. That said, I'd like to offer a small warning: be very careful of those truths you were shown, because whatever you were shown are mere examples; the real truths you encounter in dream (and sleep) yoga are sourced not in someone else's words, but in the very heart of our souls, our nature. Do you know what else is sourced there? Imagination. Attach to what you're really experiencing the expectation of those shown truths fueled with imagination, stir it around in the center of your soul for a time, add some religious faith later, and you may brew a conceptual mix that, though it seems very deep and perfectly real, is simply a product of your own imagination, a fulfillment of your beliefs. Perhaps not, of course, but the possibility does, must, exist.

Remember also that in the Matrix Morpheus was ultimately wrong, and it would have helped Neo deeply if he could have known how everything worked before taking that pill; It would have saved us all the need to see the next two movies!

I hope I did not offend, Sivason, as that was not my intention. It is simply that these things are of great import to me, and sometimes I just tire of potentially worthwhile exchanges being shredded by "truths" based on faith, anecdotal experiences, and pop-culture science... Sometimes all at once. I hope you read my words with the good intentions I hold, and understand my consternation. If you cannot, then please forgive and feel free fo forget.

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Originally Posted by Suck4Luck

Here it is: Saying this whole shared dreaming stuff is true, heres somthing. What if when we arent lucid dreaming, this means everyone in the world, and we are actually dream characters to other lucid dreams.

I had an experience where a character in my dream called me a dream character.

If this was real, wouldnt that be crazy


WHEN YOU ARENT LUCID DREAMING, YOU ARE A DREAM CHARACTER LIKE EVERYONE ELSE IN YOUR DREAMS.

WHAT IF THOSE PEOPLE IN YOUR NON LUCID AND LUCID DREAMS WERE JUST OTHER PEOPLE NOT HAVING A LUCID DREAM.

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Really profound stuff but I'm sure the military, or the big corporate advertisers would have looked into this? Could you imagine, for example every DC you met in your dream had a 'coke bottle in one hand and a mobile telephone in the other, which in turn is stuck to their ear? Like a 'mobile 'phone zombie'? (Oh sorry, that already happens in 'real life' - otherwise known as the 24/7 society!:panic:)
Seriously though, it is food for thought?

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Second, I have been practicing dream yoga for decades -- I apparently was doing so before I finally learned the term about ten years ago, and have personally experienced its "truths," which I assume is similar to being shown them...we're not all newbies here. That said, I'd like to offer a small warning: be very careful of those truths you were shown, because whatever you were shown are mere examples; the real truths you encounter in dream (and sleep) yoga are sourced not in someone else's words, but in the very heart of our souls, our nature. Do you know what else is sourced there? Imagination. Attach to what you're really experiencing the expectation of those shown truths fueled with imagination, stir it around in the center of your soul for a time, add some religious faith later, and you may brew a conceptual mix that, though it seems very deep and perfectly real, is simply a product of your own imagination, a fulfillment of your beliefs. Perhaps not, of course, but the possibility does, must, exist.

.........

Remember also that in the Matrix Morpheus was ultimately wrong, and it would have helped Neo deeply if he could have known how everything worked before taking that pill; It would have saved us all the need to see the next two movies!

.........

I hope I did not offend, Sivason, as that was not my intention. It is simply that these things are of great import to me, and sometimes I just tire of potentially worthwhile exchanges being shredded by "truths" based on faith, anecdotal experiences, and pop-culture science... Sometimes all at once. I hope you read my words with the good intentions I hold, and understand my consternation. If you cannot, then please forgive and feel free fo forget.

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Actually what I believe is also from experience and I think the nature of theuniverse is created by imagination. You are 100% correct, but it fits my world view perfectly. In a maluable dream like universe (I am just saying, this one already is) any version of the truth can be true. Christians can go to heaven, people can stop existing and people can be reborn,,,,, heres the punch line again... because none of this is real in the first place, of course each of those things is very possable. So I agree with the nature and content of your warning, but as a mystic I feel it would hold me back, but thank you for mentioning it.

Sure it would help people to know what both of us have discovered, but you must admit its alot of work. I will continue to answer questions honestly and in my own style as my attempt to do my part. You are helping in the same way.But, what else can really be done. It sounds very far fetched to most people. And I never got my share of pills to hand out. :(

I am not offended by anything you have ever posted, you are someone who puts time and effort into your posts, and that is nice of you, sharing your hard earned knowledge freely. I agree the back and forth shared dream arguements are boring and tedious. I am just offering my explaination as per my experience. Useing the word "God" in any post is dangerous I suposse, but I almost never break out the deep spiritual stuff, the generic concept of God seemed inoffensive enough.

Keep expressing things the way you see them, I will benifit from hearing your own take on things. There are not that many dream yogi types, so it is cool to have found another. Very cool.

^^ Well, Sivason, it sounds now to me that we are indeed both fishing from the same little dream boat into the same spiritual sea. We may be dropping our lines off different sides, with slightly different bait, but I think that in the end is a good thing indeed...how else do we learn?

Perhaps a new dream yoga thread is in order elsewhere here...

I look forward to future chats, and maybe more on this very thread, should it survive my off-topic ramblings.

Best of Dreams.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Galaxies do not go faster than light, hyperspace may exist, but if it were practical the the same massive changes to humanity that practical dream-sharing would cause would occur... And also, if a galaxy were moving away from us at a pace exceeding light speed, how would we know, since its light would never reach us? No need to answer; since this is way off topic, and I simply don't care enough, I'll leave it at that...I hope you will as well.

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I know this is way off topic, but I couldn't help myself.

P1) Light travelling from the sun to us on earth takes approximately 8 minutes to reach us.
P2) At the onset of the big bang, the universe expanded many times the distance from the earth to the sun in a thousandth of a second.
C) Thus, faster than light speed travel is theoretically possible.

I may be horribly wrong, but this plagues my mind a lot. Forgive me.

^_^

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Originally Posted by Sageous

I look forward to future chats, and maybe more on this very thread, should it survive my off-topic ramblings.

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Oh dear, or my encouragement of them.

Well in theory, if people were actually your dream characters, you could ask a reoccurring character in your waking life to collaborate what happened in your dreams every day. Well involving each other. Both being lucid would also mean you two could control the world together.

I mean I sort of believe in this idea because one time while a friend was at my house and he woke up to tell me that his friend jumped off of a roof in his dream and that I was there. All I could say to him was "I know I was there" because I truly had the same dream and was really shocked.

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

I know this is way off topic, but I couldn't help myself.

P1) Light travelling from the sun to us on earth takes approximately 8 minutes to reach us.
P2) At the onset of the big bang, the universe expanded many times the distance from the earth to the sun in a thousandth of a second.
C) Thus, faster than light speed travel is theoretically possible.

I may be horribly wrong, but this plagues my mind a lot. Forgive me.

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Want your mind plagued a little more? There was no light in the universe for the first few hundred thousand years, so the speed limit wasn't yet in place. Not sure the logic follows there, but I liked it!

Maybe the original expansion adhered to the same as yet unknown laws of physics that dream-sharing would follow?

Remember also that no one was there; it's the math and extremely limited observation telling us how quickly the Big Bang happened, and what its results were. For all we know, the universe could have been created yesterday. ready made, by some god proving to his buddies what omnipotence really means.

And please stop encouraging my inane ramblings!


Now back to our show?

Does this theory mean that if one person dreams of another, the other person also dreamed of him?
Always?

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Maybe ...... adhered to the same as yet unknown laws of physics that dream-sharing would follow?

......... For all we know, the universe could have been created yesterday. ready made, by some god proving to his buddies what omnipotence really means.

Now back to our show?

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.
Staying on topic. That is why I discused the other stuff. The rules dreams and shared dreams share may not be subject to our standard physics. If in fact our entire existance is actually composed of a dream energy, then we do not need to know the mechanism. I try to come off less extreme than I actuually am, but for this thread I will tell you all what I feel I know is true. Something can exist in our world with no science behind why it exists. However, everthing will allow an explaination to appear if people care enough to find one (the science being created as our need to explain expands). Sageous commented on not knowing about the creation of the universe. I actually do believe the universe may have started yesterday or 8 years ago. No fooling, and on topic, talking as a educated and sober mind. This is on topic because the reason shared dreaming works, is possably because the nature of our existance is not actually what we precieve at all. Being composed of energy and guided by dream style control, everything is possable. Not only is it possable the universe actually began days ago, there is a very good chance that is true. If we accept my premise that our existance is very much like the Matrix except it is dream material instead of computor generated, (This is a commonly held belief amongst Yogis) then the idea of alternate realities becomes easy to accept. It would only take the belief that whatever the source of the big dream, that thing could have multiple dreaams running at one time, like a computor running multiple programs. So a new version of reality is neeeded, a suddenlly a copy of the existing reality is started on a new story line. In otherwords, a new version of everthing just popped into existance instantly, that is the entire universe or perhaps just multiple versions of a smaller area.
I think the idea of DCs being other dreamers is clearly no big stretch at all, if my version of whats going on is actually correct. I imagine each of us the owners of a tiny alternate universe, that is connected somehow to a shared alternate universe where any of us could go in our dreams. So the following possabilities exist. Someone enters your dreams, your dimension, from the shared area, and you take them to be a DC. Second and most relevent to this topic. You can leave your personal dimension and enter a shared area where many of the DCs will be other dreamers. In this area fake DCs can also exist. The result of everybodies dream control acting at one time is random, for instance if a very powerful dreamer is making it rain, you would have to accept it and make up a reason why the rain is not actually getting you wet. The thrid version is you then leave this shared area but not back to your own. You could go into someone elses dreams or travel to other dimensions beyond our understanding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ibis

Does this theory mean that if one person dreams of another, the other person also dreamed of him?
Always?

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No. Not in my opinion anyways. Some DCs are made up by you, some are other dreamers, but you may see them as friends and not know them at all. A man may be having a shared dream with a woman who is a stranger, but he sees his own wife and so on.

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Originally Posted by sivason

...Someone enters your dreams, your dimension, from the shared area, and you take them to be a DC. Second and most relevant to this topic. You can leave your personal dimension and enter a shared area where many of the DCs will be other dreamers. In this area fake DCs can also exist. The result of everybody's dream control acting at one time is random, for instance if a very powerful dreamer is making it rain, you would have to accept it and make up a reason why the rain is not actually getting you wet. The third version is you then leave this shared area but not back to your own. You could go into someone elses dreams or travel to other dimensions beyond our understanding.

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Let's take this one step farther. Each item you note above implies that the dreamer knows what he's doing. What if he doesn't? What if you were to bumble into someone else's dream, or this communal area, and always assume it's your "real" waking-life world, per a nun-lucid dream? Probably just be a weird dream that might impress your analyst. But what if you were then to bumble on to someone else's dream, again without knowing? What if you became trapped in these shifting worlds, never aware that anything is different, never in possession of your self? What if you traveled to worlds or dimensions beyond our understanding (aka, transcendence) and never know it happened, because you are not lucid? And what if you did all this non-stop, even after your physical body has switched back on and is calling your consciousness back?

This makes me think of two things: first, in your world, Sivason, lucidity is a powerful tool indeed; to have self-awareness while shifting through all this stuff would be a near perfect scenario for exploration, both of your own enlightenment and toward the truths others hold. Dream yoga stuff for sure! Second, I wonder how many people we might lose each year to being trapped in other dimensions, other people's minds? Could explain a lot of mental illness, odd comas, bizarre deaths, etc.

And, back to the OP: Based on this stuff, it might make sense to be nice to dream characters, especially the ones who seem lost or confused, because there but for the grace of the dream gods go you!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Let's take this one step farther. Each item you note above implies that the dreamer knows what he's doing. What if he doesn't? What if you were to bumble into someone else's dream, or this communal area, and always assume it's your "real" waking-life world, per a nun-lucid dream? Probably just be a weird dream that might impress your analyst. But what if you were then to bumble on to someone else's dream, again without knowing? What if you became trapped in these shifting worlds, never aware that anything is different, never in possession of your self? What if you traveled to worlds or dimensions beyond our understanding (aka, transcendence) and never know it happened, because you are not lucid? And what if you did all this non-stop, even after your physical body has switched back on and is calling your consciousness back?

This makes me think of two things: first, in your world, Sivason, lucidity is a powerful tool indeed; to have self-awareness while shifting through all this stuff would be a near perfect scenario for exploration, both of your own enlightenment and toward the truths others hold. Dream yoga stuff for sure! Second, I wonder how many people we might lose each year to being trapped in other dimensions, other people's minds? Could explain a lot of mental illness, odd comas, bizarre deaths, etc.

And, back to the OP: Based on this stuff, it might make sense to be nice to dream characters, especially the ones who seem lost or confused, because there but for the grace of the dream gods go you!

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I love it. I will buy that and imagine it explains dying peacefully in your sleep when you are too old, or people who have sleeping disorders like narcolepsy. Maybe they wander off to another dimension with out intending to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

...And, back to the OP: Based on this stuff, it might make sense to be nice to dream characters, especially the ones who seem lost or confused, because there but for the grace of the dream gods go you!

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Yes I would agree, as you never know when you might need their help?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GeOh

Sorry, you do not like ld4all? I liked the experiment they did, and it related to this topic so I thought I would share it :P.

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I'm just bias towards DreamViews. Don't mind me.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Stuff.

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Thanks for the reply. I agree.

Sivason and Sageous, I just started a thread on Dream Yoga under General Lucid discussion. I am just starting this practice and would love to pick both of your brains!

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Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

Sivason and Sageous, I just started a thread on Dream Yoga under General Lucid discussion. I am just starting this practice and would love to pick both of your brains!

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Ok, I am working all day (14 hours) but will look at it tonight. I would be happy to post something on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sivason

.
Staying on topic. That is why I discused the other stuff. The rules dreams and shared dreams share may not be subject to our standard physics. If in fact our entire existance is actually composed of a dream energy, then we do not need to know the mechanism. I try to come off less extreme than I actuually am, but for this thread I will tell you all what I feel I know is true. Something can exist in our world with no science behind why it exists. However, everthing will allow an explaination to appear if people care enough to find one (the science being created as our need to explain expands). Sageous commented on not knowing about the creation of the universe. I actually do believe the universe may have started yesterday or 8 years ago. No fooling, and on topic, talking as a educated and sober mind. This is on topic because the reason shared dreaming works, is possably because the nature of our existance is not actually what we precieve at all. Being composed of energy and guided by dream style control, everything is possable. Not only is it possable the universe actually began days ago, there is a very good chance that is true. If we accept my premise that our existance is very much like the Matrix except it is dream material instead of computor generated, (This is a commonly held belief amongst Yogis) then the idea of alternate realities becomes easy to accept. It would only take the belief that whatever the source of the big dream, that thing could have multiple dreaams running at one time, like a computor running multiple programs. So a new version of reality is neeeded, a suddenlly a copy of the existing reality is started on a new story line. In otherwords, a new version of everthing just popped into existance instantly, that is the entire universe or perhaps just multiple versions of a smaller area.
I think the idea of DCs being other dreamers is clearly no big stretch at all, if my version of whats going on is actually correct. I imagine each of us the owners of a tiny alternate universe, that is connected somehow to a shared alternate universe where any of us could go in our dreams. So the following possabilities exist. Someone enters your dreams, your dimension, from the shared area, and you take them to be a DC. Second and most relevent to this topic. You can leave your personal dimension and enter a shared area where many of the DCs will be other dreamers. In this area fake DCs can also exist. The result of everybodies dream control acting at one time is random, for instance if a very powerful dreamer is making it rain, you would have to accept it and make up a reason why the rain is not actually getting you wet. The thrid version is you then leave this shared area but not back to your own. You could go into someone elses dreams or travel to other dimensions beyond our understanding.

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The question that I cannot discard, then, is: Should morality and virtue be adhered to within dreams?

i used to think that and then thought nah

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

The question that I cannot discard, then, is: Should morality and virtue be adhered to within dreams?

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...It probably wouldn't hurt. Remember that when you are lucid, the "real" you is present in the dream. So yes, anything bad you do will not be seen by others, but the most important person of all, You, will be there to witness your actions. Think about it.

Also, in light of this thread, it wouldn't hurt to be careful, just in case there are more witnesses, or vulnerable souls, out there than you think!

Just NO.

And you can easily prove it's not true.

Dream of your mother, father.. etc..
do something to them, or go somewhere to them (etc in a car.)

When they wake up ask them if they were driving in a car.
They say no.

I rest my case.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hermine_hesse

Sivason and Sageous, I just started a thread on Dream Yoga under General Lucid discussion. I am just starting this practice and would love to pick both of your brains!

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Sure. I'll be there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

...It probably wouldn't hurt. Remember that when you are lucid, the "real" you is present in the dream. So yes, anything bad you do will not be seen by others, but the most important person of all, You, will be there to witness your actions. Think about it.

Also, in light of this thread, it wouldn't hurt to be careful, just in case there are more witnesses, or vulnerable souls, out there than you think!

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Just depends how you, yourself, characterize the experience, I guess. If you see it as a game, such as we do with video games, then killing someone within that virtual world doesn't make you any less morally good and virtuous in the real world.

Hmm. This is actually very difficult to answer, as dreams seem to blur the line between game and reality in terms of how they affect your waking consciousness....and that's irrespective of whether the characters are real or imagined. After all, a DC being a real person is analogically the same as a video game character having a real person behind it.

Perhaps this is causing me confusion because a video game has clear defined rules, and we know the limits of that virtual reality. Whilst the dream world and it's effects on consciousness are largely unknown.

Although I have thought about the possiblity of DCs being other real people in my dreams before, I pretty much doubt that is the case. Sure it would be neat, but I'm pretty sure DCs are just random people created by your brain.

I did lucidly attempt to question some DCs a couple times. Most just plain refuse to understand what I'm telling them, others get agitated when you press them. Some others just deny being in my dream. I haven't bothered my DCs in that way since then, no need.

I suppose one way to test it would be try to become friends with one of your DCs and tell them to give you an e-mail or whatever and see if they do in real life! Crazy, huh?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

Just depends how you, yourself, characterize the experience, I guess. If you see it as a game, such as we do with video games, then killing someone within that virtual world doesn't make you any less morally good and virtuous in the real world.

Hmm. This is actually very difficult to answer, as dreams seem to blur the line between game and reality in terms of how they affect your waking consciousness....and that's irrespective of whether the characters are real or imagined. After all, a DC being a real person is analogically the same as a video game character having a real person behind it.

Perhaps this is causing me confusion because a video game has clear defined rules, and we know the limits of that virtual reality. Whilst the dream world and it's effects on consciousness are largely unknown.

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Good point.

I may be repeating you here, but I think that the major difference is that your dream is a world of your own creation, and everything in it represents projections, reflections, and interpretations of your self, especially when lucid. The dream itself might not be real, because you know you'll be waking up shortly, but its fabric most certainly is.

This cannot be said about a video game, whose world is in every respect someone else's fictional presentation (even the Sims), so it is much easier to keep your self out of the game (though I must admit I've had long conversations about video games along the same lines, since there is a chance you can immerse your self into a game and cause some damage).

And of course, if DC's are avatars of real people, this only multiplies the moral potentials.

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Originally Posted by EarthInferno

I suppose one way to test it would be try to become friends with one of your DCs and tell them to give you an e-mail or whatever and see if they do in real life! Crazy, huh?

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No so crazy, I think. But you might have to do it many times before you find a DC that is not of your creation -- and you know that as soon as you start looking, they're all going to say they're representing independent souls, the pesky buggers.

It might be worth a try, if only because making friends with DC's is an interesting lucid experiment (and pastime) in itself.

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Good point.

I may be repeating you here, but I think that the major difference is that your dream is a world of your own creation, and everything in it represents projections, reflections, and interpretations of your self, especially when lucid. The dream itself might not be real, because you know you'll be waking up shortly, but its fabric most certainly is.

This cannot be said about a video game, whose world is in every respect someone else's fictional presentation (even the Sims), so it is much easier to keep your self out of the game (though I must admit I've had long conversations about video games along the same lines, since there is a chance you can immerse your self into a game and cause some damage).

And of course, if DC's are avatars of real people, this only multiplies the moral potentials.

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Ah yes, very good. The fabric and content of a dream is a projection of your subconscious. Everything you perceive is you; it's part of your identity. So it follows, as you said, that you cannot detach yourself from its magic....because you would be detaching a portion of yourself from yourself. And who knows how that may manifest in one's personality.

Oh dear. Its this "shared dreaming" stuff again.
Shared dreaming requires extensive communication between all brains involved without any physical contact(movement, sound, etc), which is impossible.

Instead of flaming, convince me why shared dreaming is possible.

I don't think there has to be a definitive: 'yes, it's possible', or 'no, it's impossible' for people to simply entertain the idea and have an open discussion. Personally, I tend to believe it's not possible; however, I still find it interesting to delve into.

In fact, because it cannot be proved definitively impossible, discussion of it will continue. Then it's just a matter of how open your mind is to blurring fiction and reality for entertainment.

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Originally Posted by Vortaix

Just NO.

And you can easily prove it's not true.

Dream of your mother, father.. etc..
do something to them, or go somewhere to them (etc in a car.)

When they wake up ask them if they were driving in a car.
They say no.

I rest my case.

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Don't rest that case just yet, Vortaix, because we're not asking if all DC's you encounter are real people; we're wondering if any of the DC's we encounter might be avatars of actual people.

So you can certainly dream about, or rather create DC's representing, people like family members who did not have a personal presence in your dream. Indeed, I have a feeling that if DC's do have a real person driving them, they will likely be someone you do not know. Why? Because I have a feeling that, if it exists, conscious travel to other people's dreams would be a random event, and, with all the people on the planet, what are the odds of someone you know popping in?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freda

Oh dear. Its this "shared dreaming" stuff again.
Shared dreaming requires extensive communication between all brains involved without any physical contact(movement, sound, etc), which is impossible.

Instead of flaming, convince me why shared dreaming is possible.

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Much as I share your sentiment, Freda, this really isn't a discussion specifically about the possibility of shared dreaming. Yes, it presupposes it, but I think that's okay in this case. Any chance you can discuss this interesting idea of DC's being real people without getting into the standard dream-sharing back-and-forth?

Freda, we each posted some thoughts on science earlier in the thread, you may find it interesting, but no one is going to sell you on it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

The question that I cannot discard, then, is: Should morality and virtue be adhered to within dreams?

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I have a very good reason for you all to be moral and good in your dreams. You are confused and a bit wild in in dreams even lucid dreams. The enties that you can run into, who are from the dream plane, are not confused and can see easily through any dream scenery. You can not hide in a room and go unscene. The room is not real, they can still see you. Infact you will eventually learn the same trick. These beings can be of great help to you. They can teach you, fall in love with you, befriend you and who knows what else, certainly some like having dream sex. Here is the point, you will be watched occassionally while you run around being a cruel and immorral jerk. Lets say you have developed some nice lucid skills and attract a potential dream guide, who may give you vivid dream sex, access to an astral city, and teachings in dream yoga,,, but you are raping DCs and shooting milk men, and making people burst into flames,,, yeah, they are really going to approach you and offer to make you as powerful as them? Not a chance.

I think sex in LDs is morally fine even if you are picturing your brothers wife, the problem in contect to this thread is that mean and nasty stuff directed at DCs is a good way to be shunned and left out of the loop.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

Just depends how you, yourself, characterize the experience, I guess. If you see it as a game, such as we do with video games, then killing someone within that virtual world doesn't make you any less morally good and virtuous in the real world.

Hmm. This is actually very difficult to answer, as dreams seem to blur the line between game and reality in terms of how they affect your waking consciousness....and that's irrespective of whether the characters are real or imagined. After all, a DC being a real person is analogically the same as a video game character having a real person behind it.

Perhaps this is causing me confusion because a video game has clear defined rules, and we know the limits of that virtual reality. Whilst the dream world and it's effects on consciousness are largely unknown.

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I know I can do many things in a dream and not feel bad if I work it into a story that explains my actions. I did some violent things when I used to have an on going grudge match with a certain entity who often gaurded my first dream guide. He would always appear as the same DC (well one time he pretended to bea cat) I think he was jeaolus ot something,, or testing me. He would push my buttons so bad. He followed me around during this big multiplayer dream secret agent game and he kept coming up behnd me and stabbing me in the nuts with a sliver of magical energy. It hurt! I have had as many as 30 physical brawls with this entity/DC over the last 18 years. Here is my point. In a real waking life fight, I would choose to hold someone down, or knock them unconcious, because I am a good person. In these dreams though I know he will not be permanantly hurt, so I have been a real vicious bastard when he has really pushed me. I have dug the eyes out of his skull half a dozen time. I don't feel bad about it, Im sure he gets over it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sageous

Much as I share your sentiment, Freda, this really isn't a discussion specifically about the possibility of shared dreaming. Yes, it presupposes it, but I think that's okay in this case. Any chance you can discuss this interesting idea of DC's being real people without getting into the standard dream-sharing back-and-forth?

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No, i cannot. I do not find this subject interesting as it's very core is (according to me)impossible.
I am not going to try to stop you from doing it though, I have already made my (moderately irrelevant)point. I'm out.

hmm this sounds interesting. I am highly skeptical of shared dreaming, even though I have had a shared dream before, but I could see the possibility of someone possibly being in a dream with you. In no way is every DC another dreamer, but some might be. I don't think that other dreamers appear in every dream either. No DC has ever accused me of being a DC but many that I have interacted with have known themselves to be DCs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wolfwood

The question that I cannot discard, then, is: Should morality and virtue be adhered to within dreams?

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I think so. Every action you preform, even if in your imagination, effects your consciousness, karma, and who you are. The mindsets you experience in your dreams spill over into your waking life. Who hasn't had a dream that affected your mood the next morning, even into the day? If you seek to be a virtuous, compassionate, and kind person in waking life, then committing violent and cruel actions in your dreams (even to DC's of your creation) will hinder you in achieving these attributes. Of course, the morality of the dream world will be different than the waking world, but I would still want to cultivate the same virtues in the dreamworld that I would in the waking world.