Thread: Theory On Dream Characters

Sivason:

I'm not sure where you're getting your science info from, but I was still under the impression that, aside from some quantum entanglement curiosities in subatomic particles, nothing has been found to move faster than light -- especially massive objects like galaxies...and the Big Bang may have occurred in an instant, but scientifically speaking it took many billions of years for the universe to achieve its current size -- it did not happen in an instant. No need to argue the point, though, because I don't think it matters in this case.

That aside, what you said is of import here, because you are professing articles of faith (like that we're all just part of God's dream), and as truths bound only by your belief, no proof is necessary, and absolutely nothing can be done with those truths in any practical way. That's all fine, and I will not and cannot disagree with your beliefs. But your belief in a thing, no matter how confidently held, cannot make that thing "real" to everyone; people can still choose not to believe you, because all they have is your (and of course your respective religious tenets') word as proof. Scientific, concrete proof, however, eliminates that choice, because it is backed up by practical application that invades our everyday life. That is the thing I was getting at:

If humans can prove, and then act upon the proposition that we are all part of God's dream, and/or that we are regularly sharing dreams through some metaphysical thought-energy based system of communication that defies existing laws of physics (yes, it would, even in the terms you state above), the world would become a manifestation of your faith. In other words, everyone would know that what you believe is true, whether they choose to or not, because reality itself would shift as the science behind the discovery is put into practical use...I think that would be most excellent, don't you?

Originally Posted by Sageous

Sivason:

I'm not sure where you're getting your science info from, but I was still under the impression that, aside from some quantum entanglement curiosities in subatomic particles, nothing has been found to move faster than light -- especially massive objects like galaxies...and the Big Bang may have occurred in an instant, but scientifically speaking it took many billions of years for the universe to achieve its current size -- it did not happen in an instant. No need to argue the point, though, because I don't think it matters in this case.
.........

If humans can prove, and then act upon the proposition that we are all part of God's dream, and/or that we are regularly sharing dreams through some metaphysical thought-energy based system of communication that defies existing laws of physics (yes, it would, even in the terms you state above), the world would become a manifestation of your faith. In other words, everyone would know that what you believe is true, whether they choose to or not, because reality itself would shift as the science behind the discovery is put into practical use...I think that would be most excellent, don't you?

Sageous, Check out the series "How the Universe Works" on net flixs. It is the coolest thing I have ever watched. It is only 2 years old and shows the most up to date cutting edge astrophysics. They are finding out that all sorts of "laws" are not absolute. If you travelled at the speed of light, you could never reach any place beyond our own super cluster because they are moving away faster than light! The theory is that empty space is not nothing, but is a real factor and it is expanding in the space between superclusters much faster than light, thus pushing the galaxies along at well above light speed. The big bang thing is that while it did take hundreds of millions of years for the big bang to settle down and form stars, infinate space is getting bigger. If it expanded at millions of times the speed of light (thats what they say) or it just appeared, it lends believability to my belief that the universe need not follow certain laws, unless it just happens to at the time. Dark energy and dark matter are also talked about. They say basically that if galaxies form using our current model of physics, none of it should work. The only way to get a computer model to agree it is possable is to add far more energy and mass into the equation, then can possably be understood from the point of neutonion physics.

Of course my tie in to this thread is,,, there does not need to be a neutonian explination to how shared dreaming works. It would be pretty cool if they prove some of this stuff, but other people believing what I do has never been a concern for me. And, of course, you are correct that my explaination is a matter of faith and thus only interesting, not being something that can be addressed scientifically for many decades to come, if ever.

I guess having personally had the truths of Dream Yoga shown to me, I take a point of view like if Morpheous tried to tell Neo before he took the pill, that it did not matter what physics were involved, because none of it is actually real. A totally unsupportable point of view from most prespectives.

Sivason:

You may have missed my point. My fault, I'm sure, so I will try again.

That point was that I was considering what it would mean if some DC's were avatars of real beings, that dream-sharing was real, and if this were common knowledge among all humans, simply because it was irrecovably proven, and not simply held on faith by a mystical few. I guess I was trying to go in a direction, per the OP, that said that dream-sharing would have such a powerful impact on human existence, were it proven, you'd think that would have happened by now... Unles of course we are only just now growing mature enough to step up to this level of consciousness. That seemed like an exciting conversation to be had!

In a sense, I was trying to chat about the potentials of a world where dream-sharing is as common as flipping on a light switch (something that would have been a scientifically impossible miracle just 2 centuries ago, BTW). I wished to avoid the standard dream-sharing/DC's-are-real exchange that amounts to "It's true because I said so," followed by "It's not because the world says so," then an ongoing "is too" "Is not" exchange that helps no one. I was not taking the side of science, or assuming that all that can be known is known, and I really did not want to fall into another conversation about all the new "discoveries" in science. But it happened anyway. My bad, I guess...I should have known better. Funny, I feel like I just said this on a different thread.

Two other quick things that I feel compelled to say, even after all that:

First, I have watched "How the Universe Works," and I highly recommend you take their pronouncements with a grain of salt, as their producers are more interested in ratings and ad dollars than truth. Like many shows of this type, they dwell only on the wildest, usually least supported theories and then attach their own ideas and pictures to make them even wilder. I'm sure there is truth in there somewhere, just as there is on any airing of Star Trek, but the truth is wrapped in very shiny paper that must be peeled away...preferably by reading a book on the subject (you might try work by Brian Greene, for instance). Galaxies do not go faster than light, hyperspace may exist, but if it were practical the the same massive changes to humanity that practical dream-sharing would cause would occur... And also, if a galaxy were moving away from us at a pace exceeding light speed, how would we know, since its light would never reach us? No need to answer; since this is way off topic, and I simply don't care enough, I'll leave it at that...I hope you will as well.

Second, I have been practicing dream yoga for decades -- I apparently was doing so before I finally learned the term about ten years ago, and have personally experienced its "truths," which I assume is similar to being shown them...we're not all newbies here. That said, I'd like to offer a small warning: be very careful of those truths you were shown, because whatever you were shown are mere examples; the real truths you encounter in dream (and sleep) yoga are sourced not in someone else's words, but in the very heart of our souls, our nature. Do you know what else is sourced there? Imagination. Attach to what you're really experiencing the expectation of those shown truths fueled with imagination, stir it around in the center of your soul for a time, add some religious faith later, and you may brew a conceptual mix that, though it seems very deep and perfectly real, is simply a product of your own imagination, a fulfillment of your beliefs. Perhaps not, of course, but the possibility does, must, exist.

Remember also that in the Matrix Morpheus was ultimately wrong, and it would have helped Neo deeply if he could have known how everything worked before taking that pill; It would have saved us all the need to see the next two movies!

I hope I did not offend, Sivason, as that was not my intention. It is simply that these things are of great import to me, and sometimes I just tire of potentially worthwhile exchanges being shredded by "truths" based on faith, anecdotal experiences, and pop-culture science... Sometimes all at once. I hope you read my words with the good intentions I hold, and understand my consternation. If you cannot, then please forgive and feel free fo forget.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Second, I have been practicing dream yoga for decades -- I apparently was doing so before I finally learned the term about ten years ago, and have personally experienced its "truths," which I assume is similar to being shown them...we're not all newbies here. That said, I'd like to offer a small warning: be very careful of those truths you were shown, because whatever you were shown are mere examples; the real truths you encounter in dream (and sleep) yoga are sourced not in someone else's words, but in the very heart of our souls, our nature. Do you know what else is sourced there? Imagination. Attach to what you're really experiencing the expectation of those shown truths fueled with imagination, stir it around in the center of your soul for a time, add some religious faith later, and you may brew a conceptual mix that, though it seems very deep and perfectly real, is simply a product of your own imagination, a fulfillment of your beliefs. Perhaps not, of course, but the possibility does, must, exist.

.........

Remember also that in the Matrix Morpheus was ultimately wrong, and it would have helped Neo deeply if he could have known how everything worked before taking that pill; It would have saved us all the need to see the next two movies!

.........

I hope I did not offend, Sivason, as that was not my intention. It is simply that these things are of great import to me, and sometimes I just tire of potentially worthwhile exchanges being shredded by "truths" based on faith, anecdotal experiences, and pop-culture science... Sometimes all at once. I hope you read my words with the good intentions I hold, and understand my consternation. If you cannot, then please forgive and feel free fo forget.

Actually what I believe is also from experience and I think the nature of theuniverse is created by imagination. You are 100% correct, but it fits my world view perfectly. In a maluable dream like universe (I am just saying, this one already is) any version of the truth can be true. Christians can go to heaven, people can stop existing and people can be reborn,,,,, heres the punch line again... because none of this is real in the first place, of course each of those things is very possable. So I agree with the nature and content of your warning, but as a mystic I feel it would hold me back, but thank you for mentioning it.

Sure it would help people to know what both of us have discovered, but you must admit its alot of work. I will continue to answer questions honestly and in my own style as my attempt to do my part. You are helping in the same way.But, what else can really be done. It sounds very far fetched to most people. And I never got my share of pills to hand out.

I am not offended by anything you have ever posted, you are someone who puts time and effort into your posts, and that is nice of you, sharing your hard earned knowledge freely. I agree the back and forth shared dream arguements are boring and tedious. I am just offering my explaination as per my experience. Useing the word "God" in any post is dangerous I suposse, but I almost never break out the deep spiritual stuff, the generic concept of God seemed inoffensive enough.

Keep expressing things the way you see them, I will benifit from hearing your own take on things. There are not that many dream yogi types, so it is cool to have found another. Very cool.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Galaxies do not go faster than light, hyperspace may exist, but if it were practical the the same massive changes to humanity that practical dream-sharing would cause would occur... And also, if a galaxy were moving away from us at a pace exceeding light speed, how would we know, since its light would never reach us? No need to answer; since this is way off topic, and I simply don't care enough, I'll leave it at that...I hope you will as well.

I know this is way off topic, but I couldn't help myself.

P1) Light travelling from the sun to us on earth takes approximately 8 minutes to reach us.
P2) At the onset of the big bang, the universe expanded many times the distance from the earth to the sun in a thousandth of a second.
C) Thus, faster than light speed travel is theoretically possible.

I may be horribly wrong, but this plagues my mind a lot. Forgive me.

^_^

Originally Posted by Sageous

I look forward to future chats, and maybe more on this very thread, should it survive my off-topic ramblings.

Oh dear, or my encouragement of them.

Originally Posted by Wolfwood

I know this is way off topic, but I couldn't help myself.

P1) Light travelling from the sun to us on earth takes approximately 8 minutes to reach us.
P2) At the onset of the big bang, the universe expanded many times the distance from the earth to the sun in a thousandth of a second.
C) Thus, faster than light speed travel is theoretically possible.

I may be horribly wrong, but this plagues my mind a lot. Forgive me.

Want your mind plagued a little more? There was no light in the universe for the first few hundred thousand years, so the speed limit wasn't yet in place. Not sure the logic follows there, but I liked it!

Maybe the original expansion adhered to the same as yet unknown laws of physics that dream-sharing would follow?

Remember also that no one was there; it's the math and extremely limited observation telling us how quickly the Big Bang happened, and what its results were. For all we know, the universe could have been created yesterday. ready made, by some god proving to his buddies what omnipotence really means.

And please stop encouraging my inane ramblings!


Now back to our show?

Does this theory mean that if one person dreams of another, the other person also dreamed of him?
Always?

Originally Posted by Ibis

Does this theory mean that if one person dreams of another, the other person also dreamed of him?
Always?

No. Not in my opinion anyways. Some DCs are made up by you, some are other dreamers, but you may see them as friends and not know them at all. A man may be having a shared dream with a woman who is a stranger, but he sees his own wife and so on.

Originally Posted by Sageous

Maybe ...... adhered to the same as yet unknown laws of physics that dream-sharing would follow?

......... For all we know, the universe could have been created yesterday. ready made, by some god proving to his buddies what omnipotence really means.

Now back to our show?

.
Staying on topic. That is why I discused the other stuff. The rules dreams and shared dreams share may not be subject to our standard physics. If in fact our entire existance is actually composed of a dream energy, then we do not need to know the mechanism. I try to come off less extreme than I actuually am, but for this thread I will tell you all what I feel I know is true. Something can exist in our world with no science behind why it exists. However, everthing will allow an explaination to appear if people care enough to find one (the science being created as our need to explain expands). Sageous commented on not knowing about the creation of the universe. I actually do believe the universe may have started yesterday or 8 years ago. No fooling, and on topic, talking as a educated and sober mind. This is on topic because the reason shared dreaming works, is possably because the nature of our existance is not actually what we precieve at all. Being composed of energy and guided by dream style control, everything is possable. Not only is it possable the universe actually began days ago, there is a very good chance that is true. If we accept my premise that our existance is very much like the Matrix except it is dream material instead of computor generated, (This is a commonly held belief amongst Yogis) then the idea of alternate realities becomes easy to accept. It would only take the belief that whatever the source of the big dream, that thing could have multiple dreaams running at one time, like a computor running multiple programs. So a new version of reality is neeeded, a suddenlly a copy of the existing reality is started on a new story line. In otherwords, a new version of everthing just popped into existance instantly, that is the entire universe or perhaps just multiple versions of a smaller area.
I think the idea of DCs being other dreamers is clearly no big stretch at all, if my version of whats going on is actually correct. I imagine each of us the owners of a tiny alternate universe, that is connected somehow to a shared alternate universe where any of us could go in our dreams. So the following possabilities exist. Someone enters your dreams, your dimension, from the shared area, and you take them to be a DC. Second and most relevent to this topic. You can leave your personal dimension and enter a shared area where many of the DCs will be other dreamers. In this area fake DCs can also exist. The result of everybodies dream control acting at one time is random, for instance if a very powerful dreamer is making it rain, you would have to accept it and make up a reason why the rain is not actually getting you wet. The thrid version is you then leave this shared area but not back to your own. You could go into someone elses dreams or travel to other dimensions beyond our understanding.

Originally Posted by sivason

...Someone enters your dreams, your dimension, from the shared area, and you take them to be a DC. Second and most relevant to this topic. You can leave your personal dimension and enter a shared area where many of the DCs will be other dreamers. In this area fake DCs can also exist. The result of everybody's dream control acting at one time is random, for instance if a very powerful dreamer is making it rain, you would have to accept it and make up a reason why the rain is not actually getting you wet. The third version is you then leave this shared area but not back to your own. You could go into someone elses dreams or travel to other dimensions beyond our understanding.

Let's take this one step farther. Each item you note above implies that the dreamer knows what he's doing. What if he doesn't? What if you were to bumble into someone else's dream, or this communal area, and always assume it's your "real" waking-life world, per a nun-lucid dream? Probably just be a weird dream that might impress your analyst. But what if you were then to bumble on to someone else's dream, again without knowing? What if you became trapped in these shifting worlds, never aware that anything is different, never in possession of your self? What if you traveled to worlds or dimensions beyond our understanding (aka, transcendence) and never know it happened, because you are not lucid? And what if you did all this non-stop, even after your physical body has switched back on and is calling your consciousness back?

This makes me think of two things: first, in your world, Sivason, lucidity is a powerful tool indeed; to have self-awareness while shifting through all this stuff would be a near perfect scenario for exploration, both of your own enlightenment and toward the truths others hold. Dream yoga stuff for sure! Second, I wonder how many people we might lose each year to being trapped in other dimensions, other people's minds? Could explain a lot of mental illness, odd comas, bizarre deaths, etc.

And, back to the OP: Based on this stuff, it might make sense to be nice to dream characters, especially the ones who seem lost or confused, because there but for the grace of the dream gods go you!

Originally Posted by sivason

.
Staying on topic. That is why I discused the other stuff. The rules dreams and shared dreams share may not be subject to our standard physics. If in fact our entire existance is actually composed of a dream energy, then we do not need to know the mechanism. I try to come off less extreme than I actuually am, but for this thread I will tell you all what I feel I know is true. Something can exist in our world with no science behind why it exists. However, everthing will allow an explaination to appear if people care enough to find one (the science being created as our need to explain expands). Sageous commented on not knowing about the creation of the universe. I actually do believe the universe may have started yesterday or 8 years ago. No fooling, and on topic, talking as a educated and sober mind. This is on topic because the reason shared dreaming works, is possably because the nature of our existance is not actually what we precieve at all. Being composed of energy and guided by dream style control, everything is possable. Not only is it possable the universe actually began days ago, there is a very good chance that is true. If we accept my premise that our existance is very much like the Matrix except it is dream material instead of computor generated, (This is a commonly held belief amongst Yogis) then the idea of alternate realities becomes easy to accept. It would only take the belief that whatever the source of the big dream, that thing could have multiple dreaams running at one time, like a computor running multiple programs. So a new version of reality is neeeded, a suddenlly a copy of the existing reality is started on a new story line. In otherwords, a new version of everthing just popped into existance instantly, that is the entire universe or perhaps just multiple versions of a smaller area.
I think the idea of DCs being other dreamers is clearly no big stretch at all, if my version of whats going on is actually correct. I imagine each of us the owners of a tiny alternate universe, that is connected somehow to a shared alternate universe where any of us could go in our dreams. So the following possabilities exist. Someone enters your dreams, your dimension, from the shared area, and you take them to be a DC. Second and most relevent to this topic. You can leave your personal dimension and enter a shared area where many of the DCs will be other dreamers. In this area fake DCs can also exist. The result of everybodies dream control acting at one time is random, for instance if a very powerful dreamer is making it rain, you would have to accept it and make up a reason why the rain is not actually getting you wet. The thrid version is you then leave this shared area but not back to your own. You could go into someone elses dreams or travel to other dimensions beyond our understanding.

The question that I cannot discard, then, is: Should morality and virtue be adhered to within dreams?