lucid dream brain physiology question

[Universal Mind]

I have the book The Lucid Dreamer by Malcolm Godwin. It is the book that I happened to bump into in Books a Million in the new age section a while back and first learn about lucid dreaming as a common practice. Last night, I was reading some of it (It has been a reference book for me for years.) and reading about what happens in the brain when a person becomes lucid. The aminergic neurons in the brain are what give us our sense of the absurdity of certain ideas and situations. When you have non-lucid dreams, the aminergic neurons are resting, and that is why the most off the wall stuff can happen without you thinking anything of it. When you become lucid, your aminergic neurons have been awoken. What puzzles me is that the book also says that the aminergic neurons are the only neurons that rest during a non-lucid dream, and they rest for the purpose of saving up their potential for the next day. If that is the case, then how does lucid dreaming affect the level of rest they get in a night? I also have Stephen LaBerge's book Lucid Dreaming. I could not find anything in it about the aminergic neurons, but I did come across the point that the major restoration of neurological faculties takes place during dreamless sleep. Godwin says that the first dream cycle, generally 90 minutes, involves about ten minutes of R.E.M. sleep and that the R.E.M. proportion increases with every dream cycle in a sleep period. It maxes out with about 60 of the 90 minutes. With that in mind, I figure that the amount of rest the aminergic neurons get in a night would not be seriously affected by even a night of dreaming that is lucid the entire way (hypothetical idea, perhaps). So my question is this: Would a person who has lucid dreams need some degree of increased sleep, and how much?

[YULAW]

Well within My lifespan of Lucid experiences I cannot recall a time where I felt more tired within Lucidity or out of Lucidity. It's pretty much the same. I guess it depends all on the amount of sleep that I've gotten which in tells wether or not Im tired after rest or not. But its never been any different with Lucid or Non-Lucid dreams for me. Perhaps others are different.

[oilfieldpilot]

Universal, Neat subject you brought up! This subject of 'needing sleep' and 'how much' in order to increase your chances of LDing was brought up at LaBerge's dreamcamp. Being the perfect insomniac, I had a lot of interest in this subject, and even went one on one with Stephen. He even tailored a method for me to help get to sleep, stay asleep and induce LD. Well, less than one month later...and after an insomnia spell of 14 days, I got about 2 nights of decent sleep, on the second, did a WBTB and had my first decent Controlled and recognized LD...which lasted well over half an hour (watch indicated I slept for 1.5 hrs!) I had a blast! Actually I had an FA and recognized it was such, and did the LaBerge method and launched into a full blown controlled LD. Got up and did his eye test and went and played and explored Anyway, the discussion concluded that in order to LD, or Increase your chances of LD, one Must get Sleep...and not chopped up cycles as an insomniac. 4 to 5 hours of sleep initially, then into another cycle, or round of sleep after being awake for 30-60 ( some even go as far as 90 minutes) in which during that time, you read or do something dream/LD related. Then go back to sleep and expect to sleep 4 more hours. ie the WBTB method. LDs seem to be more frequent in the morning hours, after the person has had nearly 8 hours of sleep; up to 80% more likely. This is why at his dream camp, we don't start the day until 10a.m....most have LD in the morning hours! If a person is not getting Quality sleep, then yes, LD declines, because once you finally do get to sleep, you are likely in the deeper states of sleep, theta/delta and not likely to remember your dreams from those states. LD does not have to occur in REM, but you are more likely to LD in REM just because you are not in that deeeeep state (zonked out) and have the chance of remembering your dream, hence, dreaming about daily life activities, problems, fears, hence doing waking reality checks become habit that will Hopefully carry over into REM, and cause you to recognize and become Lucid. But yes, On one hand, the person needs to be well rested and going into normal sleep routine REM cycles. during their night time routine of sleep. And on the otherhand, interestingly enough, those who are dragging ass in the afternoon, and take a combat nap, seem to have a very high success in achieving LD too. Here he also found (and most college kids and athletes agree) that when you are stressed, physically and emotionally, just as college kids are for ex. , and take that afternoon break to an hours nap, then LD...or even OOB's occur often at this time, But not so much during their sleep cycle at night. Gosh I hope I said that all correctly! Anyway, this is what i remember because I have such a disastrous sleep pattern anyway. I experienced all that he talked about; particularly the afternoon naps I would always LD or OOB. Hopefully within the year, Laberge will publish his research on a particular substance he has us taking...(don't worry, If a pilot can stay legal with the FAA, the stuff in fine!) I know it has indeed greatly HELPED this train wreck case Until then, I have to S-H-U-T--U-P Hang Lucid! ofp good subject!

[Matchbook]

To answer your question, the longer I sleep the more I LD. If I get about 12 hours of sleep in a night, I will almost 100% surely have an LD. It usually occurs in my last 2 hours of sleep. My body and mind are reenergized and I don't need much more rejuvenating deep sleep so I REM almost the entire time. I think because the mind is rejuvenated at this point it becomes more aware and dreams become more vivid and memorable during this period. So this is the best chance to LD. Ever notice how if you take a nap in the afternoon after having had a good night's sleep that you almost always fall right into REM? That's because your mind recognizes you don't need any regenerative sleep so it sets you into REM. I recommend getting 9-10 hours sleep minimum for optimal LD conditions. If you can get to bed early enough, do 12. If you can't sleep for 12 hours because you can't fall back to sleep, try what I do sometimes. I'll sleep 3-4 hours, then I'll get up and take a sleeping pill (Melatonin, Unisom) and go back to sleep. The pill should be active for the usual 8 hours, so it extends my ability to sleep. ...Sweet, it's my Blink 182nd post on DV