Who or what should we blame for the lack of lucidity ?

Interesting Zoth !

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LaBerge's MILD techique is incomplete (for the bad and for the good), because it has limited capability: we're still not sure about how certain processes of prospective memory work, whether they need to be hold on consciousness or it's more about spontaneous retrieval, and once more knowledge (which I'm sure has been layed out since MILD was published in his book), we will be able to use MILD more effectively

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It seems a very important thing to know, which would have very direct implications on lucidity (or induction at least ! ). That missing knowledge, and some dissatisfaction about that, was the first reason to start this thread.

Again, i'm sure everyone can master lucid dreaming induction with current techniques, but i always feel like i (we) am not applying the most direct,intelligible and therefore effortless, path ( fundamentally because we don´t know some mechanisms ? )

WILD seems to me the most intelligibly described "technique", would you agree ? But then, if one's purpose is to have abundant lucid dreams per night, a DILD approach, maybe (D)EILD in the future , seems more feasible. MILD seems a god bet, but until we understand its mechanisms, there is still room for misunderstanding and wasted effort and willpower.

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PS: incase you're wondering, memory implementation is just a famous way to develop prospective memory, others being (as read in here):

-Use external memory aids such as the alerting calendar on cell phones

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Are you sure, external aids help to develop prospective memory :P ?

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This is why I find WBTB + WILD + MILD so effective. During that window of time, there are no *real life* concerns because it's sleep time. There's no other tasks you need to watch for, and you're able to focus only on your intention. If you hit a "bad spot", WILD might take ages or even fail, but remember that during all this time you're effectively developing a very strong target using memory implementation (what you would call visualization), giving you pretty good chances of achieving a DILD.

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Clearly MILD and WILD seem to share some mechanisms ( we can WILD with MILD and MILD with WILD, lol )..



Edit 2: also, how much do RCing and critical reflective techniques work by strenghtening prospective intention to become lucid ) ?

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

but does it work when saying "next time I'm dreaming..."? does that correspond to a certain time according to our prospective memory?

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I was thinking, maybe instead of saying "Next time I dream, I will..." or try to guess the hour at which you dream and say "At 5:00 AM, I will..." we should focus on the physiological changes that are characteristics of dreaming, and say things like "Next time I am in REM sleep, when my body will paralyze and my eyes will move, I will..." Maybe the body will understand this better?

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I was thinking, maybe instead of saying "Next time I dream, I will..." or try to guess the hour at which you dream and say "At 5:00 AM, I will..." we should focus on the physiological changes that are characteristics of dreaming, and say things like "Next time I am in REM sleep, when my body will paralyze and my eyes will move, I will..." Maybe the body will understand this better?

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Who knows ? So many things to experiment and try :panic: ( and of course, without patience, only for a short period of time :P )

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Originally Posted by Occipitalred

I was thinking, maybe instead of saying "Next time I dream, I will..." or try to guess the hour at which you dream and say "At 5:00 AM, I will..." we should focus on the physiological changes that are characteristics of dreaming, and say things like "Next time I am in REM sleep, when my body will paralyze and my eyes will move, I will..." Maybe the body will understand this better?

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This is the difference between prospective memory tasks based on time (concept of later) and based on events (concept of "when X happens). As you may realize, the fact that makes PM based on events more effective is the fact that you make use of cues, while on PM based on time, you're all in your own, which is especially problematic since our perception of time is way biased towards our emotional state/attention levels. Regarding lucid dreaming, this because even more relevant: when you sleep, and on the contrary of a WILD - where you retain a bigger similarity of specific neuro-activity with wakefulness - you undergo a series of physiological changes that interfere with brain activity, and thus, your PM. This is why LaBerge emphasizes that "waking up and thinking about your last dream": prospective memory (as a intentional and conscious action), is still more effective after an WBTB. Another aspect that many people don't consider is the fact that WILD still requires prospective memory: you will be distracted continuously during sleep stage's progression (by thoughts, HH, non-rem physiological events, reduction of self-awareness levels - like self-monitoring - etc), and if you got a low prospective memory, chances are you will fall asleep after forgetting you are meant to stay conscious.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

Again, i'm sure everyone can master lucid dreaming induction with current techniques, but i always feel like i (we) am not applying the most direct,intelligible and therefore effortless, path ( fundamentally because we don´t know some mechanisms ? )

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Couldn't have said it better: we already know that 90% of all lucid dreaming techniques presented in DV work, and that's because they make extensive use (even if not explicitly) of the same basic mechanisms of memory/self-awareness. But this automatically makes us realize that there must be ways to apply these mechanisms that are more effective than others - it's like saying that all forms of exercise are good for your health, but if you're specifically looking for a healthy heart, you should prioritize cardio over lifting weights. In lucid dreaming, this idea raises even more questions - even if certain mechanism proves out to be fundamental to lucid dream induction (think self-awareness), we still don't know exactly the best way to improve them. Proving that improving memory is good for lucid dreaming still doesn't explain how (and it doesn't mention what type of memory is responsible), and that's what we need to go further.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

WILD seems to me the most intelligibly described "technique", would you agree ? But then, if one's purpose is to have abundant lucid dreams per night, a DILD approach, maybe (D)EILD in the future , seems more feasible. MILD seems a god bet, but until we understand its mechanisms, there is still room for misunderstanding and wasted effort and willpower.

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I'd agree indeed: WILD, if done correctly, would be the "best" method for inducing lucid dreams, in the sense that it removes any randomness from the picture (because it's a direct action > reaction). The problem with it is that it doesn't allow you extended periods of lucidity in the sense that DILD does: DILD only requires you to dream, while WILD requires you to perform an action which only provides satisfactory results under certain conditions. (For those wanting to take a glimpse of what mastered DILD is, just read Hukif's DJ). But one thing we may not necessarily agree: WILD/DEILD, even if with a 100% induction success performed several times per night, would still less desirable than a kind of Hukif's DILD, because in the first case, you can't avoid but loose sleep in quantity (which may not necessarily be a problem to some people), but also in quality (sleep fragmentation has it's consequences, especially in long-periods of time). Also, you know as well as me that as people get older, their sleep quality declines, which gives more support for a DILD like approach. But at this point, both methods are feasible, because you do have a good point in your sentence regarding MILD. But what if we solved that puzzle in the meanwhile :)?

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Are you sure, external aids help to develop prospective memory :P ?

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It may sound it one thing doesn't have any relation to another, but a study shows they do (sadly, I don't got the pdf, I found this study in this blog post.

Spoiler for Abstract:

Time management and memory processes include a variety of common concepts and goals, namely to monitor the time it takes to complete current tasks and remember later to complete intended activities. In the present study, we correlated scales that measure components of time management with those that measure prospective and retrospective memory. As expected, significant correlations indicate that people who report that they manage their time well report successful prospective and retrospective memory. Most importantly, those who engage in setting goals and priorities and have a preference for organization reported better memory than those who do not. Implications for research in time management and prospective memory are discussed.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

also, how much do RCing and critical reflective techniques work by strenghtening prospective intention to become lucid ) ?

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Great question. Let me try to answer this with a question: What do Reality-checking, visualization, ADA, auto-suggestion, intention, and any other critical reflective technique have in common?

Spoiler for Answer:

They are all based on Implementation Intention Strategy. "I will reality check. I will become lucid, I will perform ADA, I will observe my surroundings when I dream. I will do a reality check when I find something wrong. I will see myself in a dream. I will become lucid while dreaming. I will be aware".

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Studies conducted in 1997 and earlier showed that the use of implementation intentions can result in a higher probability of successful goal attainment, by predetermining a specific and desired goal-directed behavior in response to a particular future event or cue.

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Spoiler for What this still doesn't explain:

What happens though when you no longer actively engage in lucid dreaming induction (in case of Sageous/Hukif, etc)? My guess is that previously intentional behavior turns into unconscious regular behavior, aka, an habit. But you'd probably ask: hey zoth, you were the first one to state that many habits don't make into dreams, like your hygiene routine, then why would these "becoming lucid" would? Answer: if actions can become dream signs (taking the bus), why not actions like "questioning yourself regarding your state?"? Something to think about :)

I agree with you Vagaltone. These techs seem to be not so direct or 'sufisticated', except for WLD, I think.
I read about a study that proved that we use spontaneous recovery of intention. A part of the brain stays focused to detect the cue. See prospective memory in wikipedia

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Also, you know as well as me that as people get older, their sleep quality declines, which gives more support for a DILD like approach. But at this point, both methods are feasible, because you do have a good point in your sentence regarding MILD. But what if we solved that puzzle in the meanwhile :)?

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Yes, MILD can be as sleep-unfriendly as WILD imo...oh yes, if we solve that puzzle may be it doesn´t have to be anymore. Until that happens, maybe we can achieve DILD mastery ;)

One thing that would be great to start improving MILD, i think, would be to know exactly what cue to search for or be aware of. Then, we would need some self awareness/habit to amplify that cue, and BAAM ! We have many distinctive dream cues, kind of super dreamsigns, like gravity ( Hukif's cue), sense of temperature, feeling of clothes, ambient noise, etc, like Ctharlhie said

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Originally Posted by Zoth

if actions can become dream signs (taking the bus), why not actions like "questioning yourself regarding your state?"? Something to think about :)

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You mean RCs become dream signs themselves ?? hehe, that would be a very good dream sign to have ;) But is there an easier way to induce them :P?

Won't be able to answer in full detail, got to head work in 10 minutes :P

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One thing that would be great to start improving MILD, i think, would be to know exactly what cue to search for or be aware of. Then, we would need some self awareness/habit to amplify that cue, and BAAM ! We have many distinctive dream cues, kind of super dreamsigns, like gravity ( Hukif's cue), sense of temperature, feeling of clothes, ambient noise, etc, like Ctharlhie said

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Yes, but how exactly? Something like DIPE (explained in this thread), which tries to incorporate several of the main types of dream signs/cues; something like a single action like breathing? Each one has it's own advantages, but I think a single cue would work best due that principle of cognitive-overload on PM. And what exactly would be the best course of action to speed up PM? Hukif's reality check isn't a event-based PM I think, it doesn't present any cue, he does it when he remembers to, making it the same as doing a hand reality check.

The talk in this situation seems more about "how fast can make it an habit of linking X behavior to Y event?" than exactly PM. I guess you could improve PM with exercises, test it, and see if what effect it has in WBTB + MILD? But I don't think the cue is the problem at all, more like the PM level OR/AND whether the action has become an habit or not. Time to run to work xD

I've been wondering:
Do you become better at MILD with experience? Or is it that you are only strengthening your PM? Laberge says that MILD, if practiced correctly and for enough time, will become a reliable tech to induce LDs. Meaning that we do get better at it. Ok, we know with, lets say WILD or dream control, we become pros with increased self awareness, but to attain LDs in an intermidiate way using MILD, we need only PM. that is what Laberge says, but is it true that self-awareness isn't needed for MILD? Maybe you can get used to spotting DSs or using time based MILD, and that relyes on PM, and PM doesn't nesecarily rely on self-awareness to activate it, or does it? Is it studyed?

My point is, does MILD rely on self awareness to become a tech of high lucidity attaining?

We know that expert MILD users rely on time based PM, not DSs, not as much. I think we should study time based and event based PM seperatly, because they use slightly different memories, right?

I think I'm just asking the same question over and over without the answer even being available currently.

Self awareness and memory relation.

I will continue studying the matter, and ,at least for myself, understand the states of memories during sleep.

I will report back

I will let Zoth answer this, but until he comes back..

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My point is, does MILD rely on self awareness to become a tech of high lucidity attaining?

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If i understand self awareness correctly, i think not. At least in Laberge's description he seems to clearly emphasize prospective memory training and dream signs.

Of course, it wouldn´t hurt and probably it would even help a lot..

Edit: oh, i forget to say that self-awareness, in my view, can help you to notice, at least, some specific dreamsigns ( feelings, sensations, thoughts ) and so, if you use these dreamsigns, yes, it is a great help.

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We know that expert MILD users rely on time based PM, not DSs, not as much. I think we should study time based and event based PM seperatly, because they use slightly different memories, right?

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I don't know many expert MILD users..true..do they rely on time based PM ? what do you mean by that ? ( MILD without a specific cue ? )

by time based I mean that they use their 'internal clock'. I is always there, and they have strong PM, so I would be easy. Plus, for that time based PM, they must be relying on self-awareness too, even if they don't know it! But, again, we need more studies to prove that. Zoth mentioned that self-awareness is very close to the other similar aspects that are responsible for lucidity, and Sageous says that self-awareness increases the capability of retrieving memories from the memory, so very likely that they can't be so proficients(expert MILDers) without the self-awareness they gain by experience. Again, we need to prove if self awareness does effect the elements of MILD, the explanation I just gave isn't enough.

Oh, i found another interesting quotes from Laberge ( this time from Lucid Dreaming, 2009 )

About MILD...

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The mental set involved in this procedure is much like the one you adopt when you decide to awaken at
a certain hour, and go to sleep after setting your mental alarm clock. The ability to awaken in your
dreams may be regarded as a sort of refinement of the ability to awaken from your dreams.

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Again time based PM..
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Since motivation is an important factor in inducing lucid dreams, how can we be sure increased
motivation doesn't account for the improvements I have attributed to MILD? During all the nights I
attempted to induce lucid dreams while being physiologically monitored, my motivation was very high.
Using self-suggestion, I had only one lucid dream in seven nights of laboratory recordings, but when I
began practicing MILD, I had fifteen lucid dreams in thirteen recording nights. It should be clear that it
is the method, and not merely the motivation, that accounted for these results.

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So he experienced very quick results when he switched to MILD. Self awareness takes time to increase and didn´t seem to be the factor involved in this improvement. I am not saying it is not important, by all means is ( mostly waking life ). Just don´t get discouraged or overexcited, because that doesn´t seem to be most important factor here :)

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MILD also seems to work well for others, especially those who meet the requirements of high
motivation and excellent dream recall. "High motivation" means having a strong desire to develop the
skill of lucid dreaming, and by "excellent dream recall" I mean being able to awaken from (and
remember) dreams two to three times per night or more. Students in my workshops and courses have
almost always succeeded with MILD if they met these two conditions. Two of my students increased
their lucid-dream frequency from less than one per month to about twenty per month during an eightweek
course. Even the average student had three or four lucid dreams in the same two-month period. All
this should make it clear that it is possible to learn to have lucid dreams. What one dreamer can do,
others can do as well.

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Ok, but that´s not too difficult Stephen..

That is why MILD is better than auto suggestions:
1. It gave the immediate increase because it concentrated in increasing the power of the intention(the effect of PM, you know, by those extra stuff added(other than the PM exercises)).
2. Since it made us know that intention is based on PM, we now know that we should train it.

Motivation does effect the results, especially for PM, so if he has low motivation, the effectiveness would decrease. But, motivated as in excited, interested, or both?

Seems MILD essential doesn't need self-awareness. That can be an indicator that episodic memory, retrospective memory and imperative memory aren't impaired during dreams!(lets use that to further progress our conclusions:))

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During the 1970s, when Dr Stephen LaBerge was developing the MILD technique, he found that certain interruptions in regular sleep patterns improved success rates. These included waking up to have sex, vomit or meditate. This led him to conclude that: wakefulness, interjected during sleep, increases your chances of becoming lucid.

So, in order to have more lucid dreams with MILD, you may want to wake yourself up in the night and bring yourself to full consciousness for a few minutes. No need to induce vomiting! Simply spending 20 minutes reading about lucid dreaming works fine. As you return to sleep, perform the MILD technique.

Another way to exploit this principle is to practice MILD during afternoon naps. I find this most effective if I am a little sleep deprived from the night before, so it's easy to fall asleep during the afternoon. However I don't advocate forced sleep deprivation; simply make use of this principle if you happen to be particularly sleepy in the day.

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Why does the awareness help MILD?(WBTB)
Does it have to do with the PM directly? It's activity? Or is it bcz being more aware means more effective 'implantation' of the intention?

I think frankly we (including LaBerge) don't really know exactly how/why MILD works. LaBerge's insight that he wanted to remember to do something in the future (while dreaming) was (IMHO) just the mental "schema" that he used to describe what he wanted to do. My opinion is that MILD is just another framework within which to mix up the soup of self-awareness, expectation, intent, and memory, which leads to lucidity. "remembering to do something [realize you're dreaming] the next time you're dreaming" just seems too complicated to me, ala occam's razor. Even prospective memory may be a red herring, since it seems to me to be a sort of all-day mindfulness / active goal center thing.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

I think frankly we (including LaBerge) don't really know exactly how/why MILD works. LaBerge's insight that he wanted to remember to do something in the future (while dreaming) was (IMHO) just the mental "schema" that he used to describe what he wanted to do. My opinion is that MILD is just another framework within which to mix up the soup of self-awareness, expectation, intent, and memory, which leads to lucidity. "remembering to do something [realize you're dreaming] the next time you're dreaming" just seems too complicated to me, ala occam's razor. Even prospective memory may be a red herring, since it seems to me to be a sort of all-day mindfulness / active goal center thing.

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Not quite. prospective memory doesn't need you to be aware all day, it has it's own awareness and detecting the cue mechanism. Also, MILD is no more than powerful intent. Indeed, self-awareness helps, but is not a part of the MILD itself. As for expectation, that is if you use RCs for instance, which is very good. Expectation coupled with intention makes a double hard blow!
True that it is not fully explored, but the concept is sound.

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

Not quite. prospective memory doesn't need you to be aware all day, it has it's own awareness and detecting the cue mechanism. Also, MILD is no more than powerful intent. Indeed, self-awareness helps, but is not a part of the MILD itself. As for expectation, that is if you use RCs for instance, which is very good. Expectation coupled with intention makes a double hard blow!
True that it is not fully explored, but the concept is sound.

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PM exercises are not exactly like "ADA" that's why I didn't write "awareness", but for me at least, there is absolutely an enhanced mindfulness when I have a bunch of active PM targets.

FryingMan makes a good point here ! MILD, as Laberge describes it, really sounds too straightforward ( to be completely true ) and, yes, it might be just a little bit more elaborated than what it seems. However, his description of MILD might help to instill some confidence and assuredness, because it makes "some" sense :)

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

PM exercises are not exactly like "ADA" that's why I didn't write "awareness", but for me at least, there is absolutely an enhanced mindfulness when I have a bunch of active PM targets.

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Actually, you shouldn't do that. The point of the PM training is to make you remember your intention at the furthest moment you are from its though(like in dreams). So, you should memorize the targets, set the intention, the complitly forget about them. It is hard. I currently have 30% success for 2 targets per day.

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Originally Posted by VagalTone

FryingMan makes a good point here ! MILD, as Laberge describes it, really sounds too straightforward ( to be completely true ) and, yes, it might be just a little bit more elaborated than what it seems. However, his description of MILD might help to instill some confidence and assuredness, because it makes "some" sense :)

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essentially, it shouldn't be "next time I'm dreaming, I will remember I'm dreaming" cuz that needs very strong PM. So, we start with DS. And, see how great Novadreamer and MILD are together? Laberge's discovery of the importance of PM with LDing is very important. Novadreamer is only a DS giver, no more, and would do no good at all without mental prep(MILD). Look at the success rates! Again, the Novadreamer is ONLY a DS giver, no more.

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Do you become better at MILD with experience? Or is it that you are only strengthening your PM? Laberge says that MILD, if practiced correctly and for enough time, will become a reliable tech to induce LDs

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Based on my own experience, I'd say yes. I'm probably not the best person to give an opinion (I tend to do breaks in training due health reasons), but back in the days where I was consistent enough to reach several lds a week, MILD was my main technique, this being the reason why I got so curious as to why it would work so well. I was already doing several other stuff though, like an exercise designed to improve your episodic memory and get a better sense of time (you can read Sageous in his fundamentals thread encouraging me to do it), which developed to self-awareness (which, curiously enough, made the previous exercise almost automatic, I will explain why in a bit), and besides that, I already consider myself as having a great prospective memory (When my therapist thought I had OCD, Sageous told me I could use that to my advantage xD). If you ask me what type of PM I'm good at, I can't answer you, but I'd guess time-based prospective memory: I don't really recall that I have to practice reality checks because I see something weird (in fact, I'm very bad at reacting to dream signs!), it just keeps popping in my mind over and over after some time has passed. Other aspects that reflected my overall behavior during that time would be the fact that I used alarms for everything - from alarms that ringed every 5 to 10 minutes to reality check, alarms that told me it was time to reduce lightning, alarms that told me I had 20 minutes before initiating my nightly ritual, an alarm to tell me it was time to fall asleep, and 2 alarms to wake up (plus an alarm for WBTB obviously). Along with a reality check counter bracelet, I was pretty focused on keeping the intention of becoming lucid I'd say :P

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but is it true that self-awareness isn't needed for MILD?

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I'll try to explain the relation with self-awareness in my view (might differ from other people like Sageous): self-awareness is not required to MILD, but it does help a lot. First of all, capacity to self-monitor oneself is relevant to PM: you need to remember to remember, and this happens by being aware of yourself. Secondly, and more important, awareness (in the lines of mindfulness at least) has the (documented) effect of calming the mind, increasing attention, improving your ability to ignore irrelevant stimulus...You can see how this is relevant for MILD: self-awareness reduces cognitive-load. If your mind is calm as a lake, you are much more likely to notice disturbances, and to analyze the surface of the water. The rest is simple: do you think you are more likely to retain/recall a certain intention in the future if in the meanwhile you are being bombarded with a river of thoughts (monkey mind), or if you are continuously capable of introspection and distancing yourself from other stimulus? Same exact reason I reserve 20 minutes before going to sleep to simply stretch, clear my mind, and focus on lucid dreaming (especially more relevant when I'm hunting a specific task).

On a small side note, I personally think many lucid dreamers develop self-awareness even if they don't use it to induce lucidity initially. After some lucids (some people take more than others ofc), you start getting a really good figure that you might be dreaming at any moment. It then becomes not a question of inducing a lucid dream, but being aware you might be in one (notice the shift between intention and habit here?), which is why honestly, I personally use the excuse of reality checking as a way of keeping my PM up (by keeping myself recalling my intention), rather than a way to induce a lucid (I never became lucid because I felt like doing a reality check out of the blue). No one can intentionally perform a DILD if you think about it: they either happen or not, the most you can do is increase your chances.

VagalTone, I might be a bit too arrogant to LaBerge, but I'm curious as to how he reached the first and second conclusions. I lost the link to a website which explained in detail "why you wake up before your alarm", and I'm not totally convinced it's the same as PM. Or maybe I'm completely wrong, because that would explain an awful lot of situations where lucid dreams are super-short: you'd effectively become lucid during the transition from sleep to wakefulness, but he still has to explain why the process would be so much more gradual than the original scenario (wouldn't we hear many more reports on lucidity, especially when coupled with those days of the week that we have some pressuring morning event? The most we hear is about false awakenings...hm, interesting).

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So he experienced very quick results when he switched to MILD. Self awareness takes time to increase and didn´t seem to be the factor involved in this improvement. I am not saying it is not important, by all means is ( mostly waking life ). Just don´t get discouraged or overexcited, because that doesn´t seem to be most important factor here

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What is not saying in there is "I was already trying to induce lucid dreams before MILD, and maybe MILD sort of caught the train along, making it run faster, but not necessarily the reason why the train started moving at that time" - (you'd think he would talk about his sample, not his own anecdotal testimony 0o?). Once again, you need to be extremely careful when making these studies, and even he was pointed with studies with low methodology quality . Maybe we could take a look at them if anyone finds them?

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Again, the Novadreamer is ONLY a DS giver, no more.

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Just a thought, but do you know why blind people get their sleep ruined if you remove their eyes? It's because while being blind, your eyes are still crucial to light, which influences your circadian clock. I wonder if the light produced by the NovaDreamer couldn't also affect your circadian clock, telling you to "wake up".

Question: Time based cue: when dreaming: our memory knows when we are dreaming?(one of the 3 responsible for PM)
If so, then setting intention and powering PM is enough. No need for a habit of time realization every while, or is it a natural part of time based PM, to concern about the time occasionally(consciously)? There is a PM system that stays alert for the cue. There is no need for our direct attention(studied).

Found it lol, it's PER! To determine if that first affirmation you mentioned VagalTone from LaBerge is true, we just need to see if there's any relation between PER (the protein) and lucid dreaming. If there is, becoming lucid is just like waking up. If not, LaBerge stated that without actually knowing what he was talking about.

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our memory knows when we are dreaming?

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Our memory can't "know" anything, it can only be retrieved :). And yes, you certainly can retrieve memories during your sleep, but it's not that easy (otherwise, lucidity would be simple). It's relevant to determine if there's any relation between the above mentioned PER protein and lucidity. Assuming not, what's basically turning you lucid would indeed be PM, and while we can't know for sure, PM is probably "kicking in" during REM because that's the most "conscious" sleep state you ever experienced, and your brain is extremely active (even more than waking life). That said, it's understandable why you don't become lucid in N-REM (you're in deep sleep).

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No need for a habit of time realization every while, or is it a natural part of time based PM, to concern about the time occasionally(consciously)?

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That habit helps (not exactly an habit and not exactly the "time", I mean the ability to retain the intention on your consciousness ): PM based on time requires you to monitor yourself, since you got no cues to help you, unlike PM based on events. But how exactly the brain is keeping track of time, we don't know. But you can test how beneficial the act of reminding yourself over and over might be: try to remind to do one thing after 8 hours while reminding yourself of the task every 1 hour, or with no meanwhile reminders. I think you can already guess which will give you more chances of succeeding ;)

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There is a PM system that stays alert for the cue. There is no need for our direct attention(studied).

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Only if we're talking about PM based on events, the same doesn't happen with PM based on time because there are no cues ;)

ah, ok. Thnx!!:D

by the first question I meant if our memory(short-term) during sleep contains info that we are currently sleeping, but I guess it doesn't bcz we have to be conscious of that for it to be stored in the short-term memory, right?

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Originally Posted by LouaiB

Actually, you shouldn't do that. The point of the PM training is to make you remember your intention at the furthest moment you are from its though(like in dreams). So, you should memorize the targets, set the intention, the complitly forget about them. It is hard. I currently have 30% success for 2 targets per day.

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It's not really a matter of "should" vs. "should not," it's a matter of "is" -- this is what I find when I have PM targets. I don't constantly run through the list in my mind, but I do review them from time to time. In any case, LaBerge does mention the increased activity of the goal center in the brain until goals are achieved, at the subconscious level, and this is the increased mindfulness I'm referring go.

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

It's not really a matter of "should" vs. "should not," it's a matter of "is" -- this is what I find when I have PM targets. I don't constantly run through the list in my mind, but I do review them from time to time. In any case, LaBerge does mention the increased activity of the goal center in the brain until goals are achieved, at the subconscious level, and this is the increased mindfulness I'm referring go.

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And a note here -- my first couple of DILDs were on days where I had a lot of PM targets (10 or more, no more than 4 at one time). I usually spread them out throughout the day, if I only select end-of-day targets then I get a lot of misses without much practice. I prefer to keep a rolling set of targets: some soon, some farther out, and maybe one at end of day, so that I always have a set of 4 or so active targets (when I'm doing PM exercises)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

It's not really a matter of "should" vs. "should not," it's a matter of "is" -- this is what I find when I have PM targets. I don't constantly run through the list in my mind, but I do review them from time to time. In any case, LaBerge does mention the increased activity of the goal center in the brain until goals are achieved, at the subconscious level, and this is the increased mindfulness I'm referring go.

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ah ok. I thought you meant normal consciousness, not sub. sry, my bad

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FryingMan

And a note here -- my first couple of DILDs were on days where I had a lot of PM targets (10 or more, no more than 4 at one time). I usually spread them out throughout the day, if I only select end-of-day targets then I get a lot of misses without much practice. I prefer to keep a rolling set of targets: some soon, some farther out, and maybe one at end of day, so that I always have a set of 4 or so active targets (when I'm doing PM exercises)

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Niiice! That is very handy!

So, you need to carry that habit of monitoring yourself for time based PM to the dream. You do that using self-awareness. This is why self-awareness is essential for time based PM. This is the same thing pros rely on. Using self-awareness, and PM. To be aware of themselves in a dream and use PM to remind them that this means dream. So, you need them both to become lucid using time based PM. Is this the same thing that Sageous talks about?(about being aware that this is a dream while dreaming)
I need to know more about it. What is exactly being monitored? Why do we need LDing experience for that? Do we?

the expectations you build are for , when in a
dream and if they occur, activating the memory,
because if the sub choses to incorporate the
expectation to the dream, it has to activate the
memory while dreaming. Right? I'm guessing it is
the episodic memory, right? Then, it since the episodic memory activated, your self-awareness
increases, thus activating the semantic memory.
Since you have access to the episodic memory, you
have a sense of time(if you prepared correctly),
thus activating the time based prospective memory
cue, thus becoming lucid(I'm guessing that's how pros pecome lucid most of the time). Also, if the
prospective memory didn't fulfil its job, then you'ld
still have semantic memory to let you recognize
dream like entities and become lucid.
Again, all this is suggestions, but I don't know if
there is enough info to back them up. What do you think? Is there a direct study on how this works? A
detailed explanation to it? Edit: The idea of kidnapping you and putting you in
an fmri is starting to seem more appealing:p
Seriously, why doesn't anybody do more studies
and tests about the relation of memory to other
aspects!?

also, a lot of beginners that only use autosuggestions seem to have lots of LDs. Why? they build expectation/intention, only?

I will jump in once more - and I think, I found the who or what to blame primarily, if I had to choose one suspect after all:

Bad dream recall.

That was, what was directly linked to LDs declining in that study about LDing children - recall declining.
Everybody I asked, told me that she or he remembers great dream-recall as a child - and they all said, they hardly remember any dreams now.
Only clear exception: My father in law - and he is the only up and running LDer I found in real life. But he also remembers his normal dreams very well.

Buut - now I started ETWOLD* (better late than never..) - I came across this little passage:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by La Berge

It has been said that “everything is dependent upon remembering, “ and this is certainly true of
lucid dreaming. Learning to remember your dreams is necessary if you want to learn how to
dream lucidly. Until you have excellent dream recall, you won’t stand much chance of having
many lucid dreams. There are two reasons for this. First, without recall, even if you do have a
lucid dream, you won’t remember it.
Indeed, we all probably have lost numerous lucid dreams among the many thousands of dreams
we have forgotten in the normal course of our lives.

Second, good dream recall is crucial because to become lucid you have to recognize that your
dream is a dream, while it is happening. Since they are your dreams that you are trying to
recognize, you have to become familiar with what they are like.

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My own feeling goes in that direction as well - especially since every time, I got lucid, it was (if not by something DEILDy) by recognizing dream-signs.
But the hypothesis put forth by the LDing authority par excellence - that we all have some sort of LDs from time to time - but forget them like we forget all else happening in our dreams - I could believe it!
Sheds another light on the whole affair again.

Would be great, if you could put on a cap and it gives something like fMRI - and in the morning look, if something has light up in that department.
I mean no - would be great not to have to check for LD like that - but anyway!!
Intriguing!

*Exploring The World Of Lucid Dreaming by LaBerge - the "LD Bible" I have sinned against by omission up to now..Attachment 6380

yes, Dream recall may be the one to blame indeed! Buut, my last LD was at a point where it was early REM, and I wouldn't recall. I even felt that the dream was one of the dreams I wouldn't recall, but I did bcz I was lucid, and no, I didn't wake myself up, I lost my lucidity. I'm sure this example is a lucky one.
ETWOLD is great, but lacks some crucial info and got a few points wrong :/